Isn't Fox strictly better than Sonic?

[yamas11]

Both characters are fast, both characters are very light, but Fox does more damage, has more knockback, has better aerials, has a projectile, a reflector, and he can recover as well as Sonic.

What does Sonic have that makes it worth using him over Fox, when Fox does the same thing that Sonic does?

 

[Browny]

Fox is a lightweight, Sonic is middleweight. Fox has a non-existant approach outside of drillkicks, dash attack and sideb, all of which require 100% commitment and can be shielded/shieldgrabbed, and his recovery is no where near as good as sonic. fox also suffers from fox syndrome, in where he can be chaingrabbed something stupid by a lot of the cast (0-death by ZSS, 0-80 by pikachu, 0-60 by lucario, 0-50 by kirby) and utilt locked as well (about 0-30 by luigi, mario, link and many others)

however yes he does do more damage, quicker attacks and have a lot more knockback with a great reflector. These are obviously great attributes to have, but the main advantage sonic is approaching. sonic has so many different ways he can feitn/approach an enemy to keep them guessing all the time.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Recover is a bi gfat no!!! sonic recover is just too good. And better aerials? his uair ain't a beast no more, and is not that fast to me also. Yeah fox does more damge, but if you know the litte tricks with sonic you will think otherwise. but I'll let a pro Sonic handle this one. I jsut gave my two cents on tha matter.

good luck

-Kasr

 

[Tenki]

Both characters are fast - Sonic moves and chases much faster than Fox- at least, sideways and upwards. Fox definitely falls faster, which lets him chase downwards and shine people to death under the stage, but otherwise doesn't have alot of value aside from escaping juggles, IMO
both characters are very light - Fox has faster fall speed and is lighter than Sonic, who is heavier than Marth. Hope that made sense lol.
but Fox does more damage - per move, yes.
has more knockback - correct
has better aerials - Fox's aerials have alot of commitment (like, his F-air, N-air, etc all stay out a really long time, unless you land).
has a projectile - correct
a reflector - correct, and it's very useful.
can recover as well as Sonic.- ...not really. Sonic has more options in his recovery with wall jumps, homing attack, spring, side-B extra hop+double jump, FSJ after spring, etc. Fox is limited to long distances horizontally and cannot piggy back on other peoples' recoveries. This is the only one that I find horribly wrong.

To add:
Fox's smashes come out much faster than Sonic's (+ for Fox, since it makes killing much easier)

Pretty much, what Sonic has over Fox is:
+ weight
+ cancellability in approaches
+ grab/chasing game
+ off-stage game
+ disrupting projectile (spring)
+ less-gimpable/more versatile recovery

I'm not really sure if Fox can jablock, but Sonic can. Sonic has aerial combos that are generally for damage, whereas Fox has grounded combos (which... kill)

 

[TwinkleToes]

"Isn't Fox strictly better than Sonic?"

Isn't that question strictly ********?

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

"Isn't Fox strictly better than Sonic?"

Isn't that question strictly ********?

Come on toes that wasn't nice.

 

[Mmac]

Fox gets owned badly by ZSS and Pikachu

Sonic doesn't (Or not as bad....)

 

[Boxob]

"Isn't Fox strictly better than Sonic?"

Isn't that question strictly ********?

Oh **** son.

 

[yamas11]

Alright, Tenki summed it up pretty well.

Is there any character that Sonic does well against that Fox doesn't do well against?

 

[Jisike]

Well seeing as fox gets ***** by a large amount of the characters in bronys post >_>

 

[R4ZE]

havent you been reading the boards? every character is strictly better than sonic apperantly.

 

[JayBee]

Both characters are fast - Sonic moves and chases much faster than Fox- at least, sideways and upwards. Fox definitely falls faster, which lets him chase downwards and shine people to death under the stage, but otherwise doesn't have alot of value aside from escaping juggles, IMO
both characters are very light - Fox has faster fall speed and is lighter than Sonic, who is heavier than Marth. Hope that made sense lol.
but Fox does more damage - per move, yes.
has more knockback - correct
has better aerials - Fox's aerials have alot of commitment (like, his F-air, N-air, etc all stay out a really long time, unless you land).
has a projectile - correct
a reflector - correct, and it's very useful.
can recover as well as Sonic.- ...not really. Sonic has more options in his recovery with wall jumps, homing attack, spring, side-B extra hop+double jump, FSJ after spring, etc. Fox is limited to long distances horizontally and cannot piggy back on other peoples' recoveries. This is the only one that I find horribly wrong.

To add:
Fox's smashes come out much faster than Sonic's (+ for Fox, since it makes killing much easier)

Pretty much, what Sonic has over Fox is:
+ weight
+ cancellability in approaches
+ grab/chasing game
+ off-stage game
+ disrupting projectile (spring)
+ less-gimpable/more versatile recovery

I'm not really sure if Fox can jablock, but Sonic can. Sonic has aerial combos that are generally for damage, whereas Fox has grounded combos (which... kill)

I also add that Sonic

is harder to kill

is harder to punish

is a better edgegaurder

I think has a better special move set and throw set

IMO has more potential than this version of Fox, though harder to learn.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

What's there to say that hasn't been said? Overall, I wouldn't hesitate to say Sonic is the better of the two. It can't be stressed enough that Sonic's speed & recovery is far above Fox's speed & recovery- the two are certainly not equal in these aspects. Sonic also has more combo potential, deceptive specials, and doesn't suffer from the 'helpless' state. There's nothing wrong with Fox, but Sonic outclasses him for the most part- at least in my opinion. Heh...

 

[Umby]

Fox kills earlier. That's all I need to consider him better. Usmash is easy to land too if you haven't abused it. I'm actually picking up Fox now, tbh.

He may not have an abusable approach, but he can easily force you to come to him with SHDLs, and when you're in his territory, it's all about how well you pin him down before he starts racking up damage. Seriously, Fox only needs to get about 95% on most characters until he lands a hyphen smash for a kill.

 

[Onomanic]

I'm not really sure if Fox can jablock, but Sonic can. Sonic has aerial combos that are generally for damage, whereas Fox has grounded combos (which... kill)

Yes Fox has a jab lock. 2 actually. One is ftilt, walk, ftilt ect and the other is a very hard one which is the falling Nair. Can't find the thread on the Fox boards though >_>

 

[A6M Zero]

I have to disagree with you Sonic fans, on paper Sonic may seem to have a lot more going for him but once you get right into the match Sonic just doesn't have potent killing potential that in my eyes makes Fox the better of the two.

 

[Tenki]

I have to disagree with you Sonic fans, on paper Sonic may seem to have a lot more going for him but once you get right into the match Sonic just doesn't have potent killing potential that in my eyes makes Fox the better of the two.

On paper, Fox has more going for him, since he has a stronger on-stage game, which tends to count alot more than off-stage game.

And he kills earlier.

Also, @ fox jablock, so it's... a grounded... tilt lock? o_O

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Ok people just because he kills early doesn't make him better. Mr.Umby haven't you forgot that sonic play style is basically punish the fool for a dumb move right? Well just like Ike vs. Sonic, all mr.Sonic has to do is shield, powershield, doge, and throw punish moves like fsmash from Ike, usmash from fox, and many other moves that have awesome knockback. Also, I can agree that Fox does have an awesome ground game, but when were in a real match the pro Sonic will streamroll a good Fox player. Sorry Fox mains, I had to say that. But if you can own me with Fox then your one hell of a good Fox.

edit: Also, utilt from ike also show us the sexy lag of a move kids.

(I don't know why I say that. Forget about it.

 

[A6M Zero]

KirbyandSonicrock14! I challenge you to WIFI matches xD

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

KirbyandSonicrock14! I challenge you to WIFI matches xD

Ok, I don't mind a fight over wi-fi. But it KASR to you lol. And what do you think about my Sonic vs. Fox opinion?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Too Gudz.

He can recover as well as Sonic.

Thankyou, that was the most entertaining read I've had all day.

As for the question, there's nothing that inherently ***** Sonic. Fox gets chaingrabbed, suffers from stuff like tiltlocks from Sheik, and is the least cool of the Starfox characters by a long stretch.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Um did you Fox players forget that sonic's nair cancel Fox's side B. So it ******** to say he has or better yet recover as good as Sonic for that matter. And his up +b is an easy gimp for sonic anyway and the spring can knock him the other way during his up+B.

 

[aeghrur]

Idk... I mean, Fox has higher knockback, he has a projectile, he has a reflector, but his vertical recovery kinda sucks. On tiers, isn't fox higher? lol...

 

[TwinkleToes]

I have to disagree with you Sonic fans, on paper Sonic may seem to have a lot more going for him but once you get right into the match Sonic just doesn't have potent killing potential that in my eyes makes Fox the better of the two.

Fox does worse in tournaments than Sonic.

It's a small difference, but at worst the difference between the two is a toss-up.

 

[Tenki]

I have to disagree with you Sonic fans, on paper Sonic may seem to have a lot more going for him but once you get right into the match Sonic just doesn't have potent killing potential that in my eyes makes Fox the better of the two.

I forgot to mention that priority, knockback, and damage, which is the staple of "OMG SONIC SUCKS!" is a pretty large factor on paper.

Ok people just because he kills early doesn't make him better. Mr.Umby haven't you forgot that sonic play style is basically punish the fool for a dumb move right? Well just like Ike vs. Sonic, all mr.Sonic has to do is shield, powershield, doge, and throw punish moves like fsmash from Ike, usmash from fox, and many other moves that have awesome knockback. Also, I can agree that Fox does have an awesome ground game, but when were in a real match the pro Sonic will streamroll a good Fox player. Sorry Fox mains, I had to say that. But if you can own me with Fox then your one hell of a good Fox.

Punisher-type melee characters like Sonic and Ike generally have a weaker offensive game, since their approaches must take into account opponent reaction in order to connect.

Also, I'm under suspicion that the majority of people you (and all of us, as Sonic mains) play against lack vs. Sonic matchup experience so they don't know what/when to punish, which is dangerous in discussions like this, because they might not know which moves they can punish with what, and if they do find out and adapt to it, then you'll realize why Sonic is disadvantaged to certain characters.

For example, I used to believe that Dedede was an easier matchup for Sonic, but after fighting Vex.K a few times (and he learned the matchup), I had some close wins at first, but it eventually made a complete reversal to the point that he could 2-3stock me with Dedede. At the same time, I could also be misadapting to his adapted playstyle, etc.

Also, this was not a Fox vs Sonic matchup discussion lol. It's Fox's playstyle/matchups vs Sonic's playstyle/matchups. I suspect that the OP was trying to see if Sonic was worth maining or having as a secondary for counterpicks, but didn't really ask it. lol.

show us the sexy ... kids.

I suspect a...

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Ok, first offstop editing my post!!!!. And you're right about your exp agasint that good DDD. it just like how I throught Taki was an easy win for me in SC4, but come along Mr GAME Watch. And I get pwn really badly. But this isn't about SC 4. Anyway, I see wha tyou mean. when the perso nsee Sonic punishing the **** out of people, they become know this playstyle, and destroy it. So wha tis a back up plan if this happen, Tenki?

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

G&W....is in SCIV?! o_O

 

[Umby]

G&W....is in SCIV?! o_O

Nice.

Seriously though, it goes without saying that Fox > Sonic. I still live him more, but I've only seriously picked up Fox recently, and over half the matchups I have a little more trouble with as Sonic, Fox ends up doing better for me.

Also look at it this way:
If the opponent slips up, Fox's punishment is alot heavier than Sonic's. It won't look as cool, probably, but an off the top kill ends the game earlier than bthrow -> Spin Dash -> Bair -> Run across the stage -> Gimp.

I still love Sonic more btw. <3<3<3<3

 

[ShadowLink84]

The only issue is tht all if not most of Fox
s approaches are dedicated so once the opponent figures out wat you are doing you will get punished harshly for it. Simply because unlike Sonic, Fox doesn't lack the many options when it comes to approaching.

I used t use Fox (then switched to falco as a secondary) primarily because of the lackof options I had. yes I could Ko earlier, but my bad recovery and lack of options meant that when I was on the receiving ends of things, it was harder to to escape and get back on even ground.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

G&W....is in SCIV?! o_O

No that the name of the guy that beat me with Taki.

 

[Greenstreet]

Try asking this in the Fox thread. I'm curious to what they will say.

 

[yamas11]

Should I really?

Well, I guess I will, just reword my question.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5169828#post5169828

Even though you all did tell me about the recovery, I am curious to what they say about the recovery.

 

[Greenstreet]

Interesting hey...leave it there longer, might get some more professional opinions pop up/

 

[JayBee]

Fox kills earlier. That's all I need to consider him better. Usmash is easy to land too if you haven't abused it. I'm actually picking up Fox now, tbh.

He may not have an abusable approach, but he can easily force you to come to him with SHDLs, and when you're in his territory, it's all about how well you pin him down before he starts racking up damage. Seriously, Fox only needs to get about 95% on most characters until he lands a hyphen smash for a kill.

sigh... its like when the meta abusers say that meta has light weight as a viable weakness...

From what I've seen from Fox, the only way he can compete with a competent Sonic is to camp. Then if sonic is patient he can make him chase him anyways, his recovery is not that good umby, you can get fox off the stage early and kill him there. so what you got lasers, bait them and punish on the lag. or i grab the ledge and look at that, the lasers don't matter. every other Space Animal can at least approach sonic with thier projectles, He's only got Hyphen smash, dair and lasers, both of which unsafe if semi-abused in this manner. and that dair-- really, its the most obvious thing a fox will do if they jump at you besides nair. just because the character is stronger does not make him automatically better. IMO the only real reason people rank him over Sonic is because of Melee, as if to say, "he was nerfed in brawl, but it's fox, so there."

 

[FrostByte]

Fox definately has more solid approaches than Sonic does, dairs and backdoor nairs are all he really needs as basic approach. Sonic's approach is too heavily reliant on baiting and punishment and he actually doesn't have any true method of approach without being punished himself.

Fox's Upsmash is still one of the best KO moves in the game.

 

[Umby]

Hi FrostByte.

 

[FrostByte]

Heh yeah, long time.

Melee is II II good.

 

[R4ZE]

lol...

fact : the majority of people are idiots

fact : the majority of people bandwagon

Fact : the majority of people think sonic sucks.

Fact the majority of brawl players suck

fact : the majority of brawl players who play sonic, or against sonic dont know ANYTHING about sonic



it all makes sense now.

 

[aeghrur]

Fox definately has more solid approaches than Sonic does, dairs and backdoor nairs are all he really needs as basic approach. Sonic's approach is too heavily reliant on baiting and punishment and he actually doesn't have any true method of approach without being punished himself.

Fox's Upsmash is still one of the best KO moves in the game.

I think Sonic fully charged Spin charge is a good approach that's pretty hard to punish, as Mr.3000 shows us. =)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox definately has more solid approaches than Sonic does, dairs and backdoor nairs are all he really needs as basic approach. Sonic's approach is too heavily reliant on baiting and punishment and he actually doesn't have any true method of approach without being punished himself.

Fox's Upsmash is still one of the best KO moves in the game.

How is Fox's approaches solid?
hell the reason he goes even with Ike is because he lacks solid approaches.
not only does he lack approaches but his approaches are all if not mostly approaches that must be committed.

Thats why when fox gets punished he gets punished harder than Sonic does.