Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

Storm Eagle · Aug 28, 2014

Isaac and Ridley tomorrow? Or Shulk and Ridley? IF we get yet another Smash centered direct in September, I will say Isaac and Shulk. But no way Ridley won't get shown before the game comes out!

JaidynReiman · Aug 28, 2014

Storm Eagle said:
Isaac and Ridley tomorrow? Or Shulk and Ridley? IF we get yet another Smash centered direct in September, I will say Isaac and Shulk. But no way Ridley won't get shown before the game comes out!

IF we get a newcomer in this video, I'd say Isaac would be highly likely, maybe alongside Shulk. And that's a pretty damn BIG if.

Actually, come to think of it, there's still plenty of time for Sakurai to mention the Direct in a Pic of the Day.

Turmalinium · Aug 28, 2014

We are finally getting a direct after all that time. Lets hope Isaac gets confirmed and the leak gets disproven. In addition they should reveal Golden Sun 4. If that would happen i would be so incredibly hyped. Sadly thats not gonna happen.

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

JDogindy said:
Both'd be nice, but unlikely. The 3DS direct will refer to 3DS games, most of them likely Japan-only. I'd care more right now if Golden Sun 4 was announced.

Great. You just had to get my hopes up didn't you?

This is why they just released Golden Sun on the Virtual Console. Because they're about to announce Golden Sun 4 in the 3DS Direct.

HYPE!

JaidynReiman · Aug 28, 2014

Turmalinium said:
We are finally getting a direct after all that time. Lets hope Isaac get confirmed and the leak get disproven. In addition they should reveal Golden Sun 4. If that would happen i would be so incredibly hyped. Sadly thats not gonna happen.

The leak won't be disproven, at best it can be shown to be outdated. However, there's definitely the possibility of announcing Isaac.

Skyblade12 said:
Great. You just had to get my hopes up didn't you?

This is why they just released Golden Sun on the Virtual Console. Because they're about to announce Golden Sun 4 in the 3DS Direct.

HYPE!

Don't get TOO hyped, but its definitely possible.

BSTCloud · Aug 28, 2014

It's not like ZOMFG GS4 CONFRIMED GET HYPED!!!1!!one!1, but, at least to me, is a possibility I ALWAYS consider when there is a direct of the sorts

But if GS4 is announced and Isaac is revealed I think... pffftt geez I'd literally explode.

Bassoonist · Aug 28, 2014

I keep on hoping that NoA or Europe will announce the Direct, but it's looking more and more like it will be a Japanese-only Direct.

I don't know what to make of that. I don't know why Nintendo is being so stingy on Directs lately... It feels like we haven't had a real full Direct in ages. Why in the world are they making a Japanese only Direct? It will probably be the last one before SSB3DS comes out in Japan. Will they even show SSB in it, because it doesn't make sense to show SSB when not in a national Direct.

Nintendo, you're confusing me!

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Bassoonist said:
I keep on hoping that NoA or Europe will announce the Direct, but it's looking more and more like it will be a Japanese-only Direct.

I don't know what to make of that. I don't know why Nintendo is being so stingy on Directs lately... It feels like we haven't had a real full Direct in ages. Why in the world are they making a Japanese only Direct? It will probably be the last one before SSB3DS comes out in Japan. Will they even show SSB in it, because it doesn't make sense to show SSB when not in a national Direct.

Nintendo, you're confusing me!

There will still be a Smash Bros. specific Direct the week before, you can count on that.

I do wish this one was international, though. It really hurts the chances of a reveal trailer, and I really want another reveal...

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

JaidynReiman said:
The leak won't be disproven, at best it can be shown to be outdated. However, there's definitely the possibility of announcing Isaac.

If any of these things happen then the leak is disproven:

Lucas is confirmed playable.
Dr. Mario is Mario's alternate costume.
Dark Pit is Pit's alternate costume or has another role.
Ganondorf is the Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf.
Duck Hunt Dog is shown to be in a role other than playable.

Personally, I would say wait until the Direct happens.

Gotann · Aug 28, 2014

I've been writing this up for awhile now. A big chunk of what I'm going state below has already been mentioned before or could not mean much, but I thought I'd share anyways.
Warning though, it's a big wall of texts. So if any of you are really bored, feel free to read through it.

(Sorry for any grammar or spelling errors. Feel free to correct my mistakes if you want, I'd actually appreciate that.
Also some facts I'm going to bring up are from wikipedia and vgchartz which may or may not be true)

Here's why I think Isaac (or a character Golden Sun) should be a playable character and still has a decent chance.

Sakurai says he's looking for potential and uniqueness when choosing playable characters.
There's so much to take from the Golden Sun series that there would be no problem making a unique moveset for a character from the series.
Some could say that Robin decreases Isaac chances, because he is a swordman that uses elemental magic. However, Robin doesn't use Earth elemental magic, have djiins, and the ability to summon a Giant hand, which are big things that make Isaac unique.
I won't say more on this because you guys have brought up so many possible examples of how he could work.
Though, I will say that I can totally see Sakurai making his moveset mostly revolve around the Hand psyenergies like Move, Pound, and Force

People seem to believe that Isaac does not have much of a chance because of the lack of Golden Sun games recently and also seem believe that it's never getting a 4th game. But, I find that they are exaggerating a bit.
It's only been 4 years since Dark Dawn has been release. (which is not that long in my opinion).
Brawl had 6 years between its release and Lost Age.
Golden Sun now having 3 games in the series is better than 2, so if anything, Isaac's chances are definitely better now than it was during the Brawl-era.
Thinking about it, we actually shouldn't be counting the 4 years since Golden Sun had a game but should be counting how long it had a game since the time Sakurai was planning the roster.
I think Sakurai said he finished planning the roster around early 2012, so that means only about a year had past since Golden Sun's last game was released during that time. (Dark Dawn was release close to the end of 2010) He could have been thinking about the roster even longer than that
Brawl supposedly started development in 2005, so that's about 3 years between Lost age and Brawl's release. It's not much, but it's still longer compared to now.
Golden Sun is also on the same boat as some other franchises who got a playable character rep.
Ness's and Samus's inclusion for example. They've had 2-3 games in their series but still got in (First smash Bros, but should still be mentioned)
Olimar is the best example for this. During the Brawl-era, he was a modern character with only 2 games, and his last game was released 4 years prior to Brawl's release, just like Isaac. And yet he still got in as a playable character.
Little Mac's last game was released 5 years ago, and he still gets to be playable. The only big thing Little Mac has over Isaac, is that he's much more older (Also has 3 games plus Arcade ones).
Another thing to note, is that a couple of already repped franchises haven't gotten games for awhile. Metroid hasn't had a game since 4 years as well, and Falcon even longer.
So no Golden Sun sequel for 4 years (Or 1 year, whatever way you want to look at it) is not a bad at all, and it is not as "irrelevant" as a few people like to claim.

In terms of Golden Sun getting a fourth installement.

Camelot has been working on the Mario Tennis/Golf for awhile now, but what I found a little suspicious is the amount of time it took them to make the latest entries.
It took them 2 years each to release the Mario Tennis/Golf entries for the 3DS, when, before, they were able to release those within about a year apart, even the ones for the Gamecube. Mario Golf for the 3DS got mysteriously delayed for a couple of months as well.
Mario Tennis 3DS was apparently incredibly simple with no RPG element. Mario Golf 3DS had no RPG adventure as well.
Though maybe the fact that both had online features could have caused more development time and Mario Golf could have been delayed because of the extra DLC stuff.
However, it could also mean that they are taking that extra time to work on a new Golden Sun game as well. (A stretch but not impossible)

In Brawl, Isaac was added as a assist trophy, and for an unrepped modern series, it means he was big enough to be in Sakurai's mind and that's a very good thing. Golden Sun even got a remixed music included in the game as well. (The composer for Golden Sun is working on Smash once again and that's a good sign as well)
I also think Isaac being an unlockable in Brawl makes it all the more special, even though it was just an assist trophy.
I noticed that the 3 unlockable assist trophies that you unlock after playing "Brawl" after a certain number of
times, are from unrepped series that definitely could have gotten a playable character.
-Isaac: Highly requested, Critically acclaimed games, had 2 games.
-Ray: Probably was requested a lot in Japan, had 5 games
-Advance Wars: Pretty much deserves a playable rep after so many games since the NES.
I personally think Sakurai sees surprise unlockables like this as being very special. So maybe this was meant as a "I didn't forget about these franchises, just didn't have the time to make a playable rep for them, but take this as a gift instead".
In which, this could have come as a nice surprise to many fans who thought their favorite franchise would have gotten ignored.
Other than that, having unlockable assist trophies is a bit pointless (imo)
Three things that may ruin this secret surprise thing, sadly:
-Little Mac wasn't unlockable (Though he was shown in the DOJO, so that's something I guess)
-Advance Wars Unit was apparently available in the Brawl Demo, which kinda ruins the surprise for some.
-Barbara was also unlockable. By finding 25 songs (But maybe she or her game was popular in japan?)
The thing that's weird though, is that there seems to be no Stickers at all from Golden Sun in Brawl (correct me if I'm wrong). But there were stickers for other unrepped series that have unlockable assist trophies, even 3rd party franchise. So I'm wondering what was up with that?

Golden Sun might be first party, but could also fall into the second party category, which may or may not hurt his chances.
However, Camelot has been developing games for Nintendo (and only Nintendo) for about 14 years now. So even though they're not owned by Nintendo, I still think it's fair to include a character from a game that they've worked on (that does not relate to Mario).
There has been playable characters from second party series (Pokemon, Kirby, Mother). Though, Pokemon is extremely popular, the other series are from HAL which developed the first 2 Smash Bros and have/are probably helped/helping with the other ones too.
But I don't think second party should be an issue, since we have now four 3rd party series that's been included in games that's supposed to be about Nintendo.
Another thing I noticed, in around 2005-2007, Camelot was almost going to release a PC game (called "I love Golf") after a long time sticking with Nintendo, but eventually cancelled that and decided to release it on the Wii instead. I doubt that would have affected Isaac's chances, but that did happen during the development of Brawl...

Some individuals think that Sakurai is bias and just adds whatever character he wants or likes, but I disagree.
Sure, he seems to like to play with people's minds but he isn't "evil", he obviously cares for this series and its fans. I don't agree with all his decisions, but most of time I think he makes the right choices, especially with the rosters.
When people assumes Sakurai adds characters that "deserves it", they're not exactly wrong.
Deserving characters, being popular ones and/or important to Nintendo's History.
I really think that importance, sales, and impact plays a big role on his decisions for the roster.
Examples of that are, Mario (if you count Yoshi and Wario) and Pokemon always have the most rep, and that there's newcomers like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer
The only reason Villager wasn't in Brawl was because Sakurai couldn't make up a moveset for it, however Animal Crossing still had a decent amount of representation in the game.
Noteworthy things that make Golden Sun deserve a spot in the roster:
-Golden Sun debuted in the Gameboy Advance era with two games, both games were critically acclaimed.
-Has been created over a decade ago. Might not have a retro status, but still old enough.
-First Golden Sun was pretty much best selling game that was original, and not a sequel or a remake.
-After 7 years, the series gets a third game which sold a decent amount.
-First two games sold over a million copies each. (It's not much compare to stuff like Wii Fit or Animal Crossing, but that's the same amount series like Kirby and Metroid have. I find that's pretty good for an handheld RPG, especially for a first entry)
-Three games combined sold about 3 millions
-Games are being released on the Wii U eshop recently.
-The series could represent the Gameboy Advance era

-Series debuts-
Arcade: Punch out, Mario, Donkey Kong
GW: Game&Watch
NES: Zelda, Metroid, Mother, Metroid, Ice Climbers, Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, ROB
SNES: Yoshi, Starfox, F-zero
Gameboy: Pokemon, Kirby, Wario
N64: Animal Crossing
GBA: (Nothing debuted)
GCN: Pikmin
DS: (Missing one as well)
Wii: Wii Fit

I believe it's pretty clear that Sakurai knows who are the popular characters/series that people want, and I doubt that he ignores any the requests, unless they're unreasonable.
Two of the big reasons why assist trophies exists, is to put popular characters in and to represent franchises that couldn't/can't be made playable (due to time, not made for smash bros, etc).
Even now, we are seeing even more highly requested characters that appear as new assist trophies.
Cases like Paletuna's addition isn't (only) because Sakurai was involved in the making of Kid Icarus Uprising. The game is recent, pretty popular and Palutena was also highly requested, especially in Japan. (Though I am not okay with how much work he put into her move customizations. Miis already represents "true" moveset customization. All that extra work could have been put into a newcomer or at least 2 veterans. One of the reason, why I'm expecting big things from the roster or at least the game in general).
We shouldn't forget that Smash Bros is also considered its own franchise, so that also plays a role in choosing reps.
Many say that Starfox didn't deserve 3 rep in Brawl. Whether that's true or not, maybe the reason it did was because Fox and Falco were pretty "popular" characters in Melee (Wolf was also apparently supposed to be in Melee instead of Falco as well).
Lucas didn't end up replacing Ness in Brawl (like he was supposed to in Melee) because Ness was already an iconic character in the Smash Bros franchise.
Same reason why characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff come back for the next Smash titles.
Back then, I'm positive he knew, to an extent, how much Isaac was popular, and even today I'm sure he knows that they're still many fans that want him in.
Isaac is popular in America, but not so much in Japan.
But let's not forget, there's other places besides America and Japan. Isaac is also a highly requested character in Europe.
I stumbled in a leak thread from a French General Video Game site, and right off bat, I see people talking about Isaac (He's called Vlad there apparently)
I even checked on their Isaac Thread on the same site, and the thread is still pretty alive today.

Like I mentioned above, I really believe Sakurai loves surprises, and feels that he wants fans to view them as special treats. (The way he feels about SSE being uploaded on the internet early kinda hints to that)
Characters like Ridley, for example, are really popular and I'm sure Sakurai knows that. SSE was a pretty Big deal, and he added him as two Bosses, each with a boss intro cutscene. I think this, even though he ended up not being playable, was definitely meant to be seen as a "special surprise".
This is why I personally can't see Ridley being just a boss on a stage for SSB4.
For a character that popular, I think he's definitely going to be either a playable boss or character. I'm sure many people would be as furious to see him as a playable boss, but if he's not playble normally then he needs something almost as special as getting a new normal character. (all imo of course)
Same thing for Isaac. Golden Sun had a lot of fans that wanted to him included in Smash ever since pre-brawl. Some fans wanted him ever since the release of its first game, so over a decade.
Him being an unlockable assist trophy again (or an assist trophy in general) would not give that "special surprise" that I think the series deserves, especially after finally getting a new game.
It's like 99.9% sure that there is going to be Golden Sun content in the game, so there would be no point in having him unlockable again.
During the Brawl-era, it was also 99.9% sure that there was going to be F-zero content in the game, yet it was still hidden until release. Though it still got a character, assist trophy, stages, and multiple music. That's a lot more meaningful compared to a assist trophy and possibly one music.
Nevertheless, I find Golden Sun needs a lot more representation than just what he got in Brawl and could possibly get again..
There has never been a playable rep for Golden Sun for Smash before and yet it still has a good amount of popularity, even it's not as much as before.
A lot franchises/characters, aside from like Mario, Zelda and Pokemon, might not have been as popular if it weren't for Smash's help. So it's very noteworthy that the seires and character is still as popular today.

One thing that's concerning, is that besides Pokemon and GW there hasn't been a playble character from a series with only handheld games. With the Smash Bros series now coming to handheld, I'm hoping this changes.
Another thing that's concerning, is how many new franchises is added in each new installement.
In Melee, 3 new franchises were added.
In Brawl, 4 new franchises were added (if we exclude 3rd party and include Wario and ROB as a franchise).
Though if you count Wario as a Mario character, and group the Retros together, you're left with only one new series added in Melee and Brawl.
It seems there was more focus on adding to already repped franchises (and retros) rather than adding new ones.
Two is not a pattern of course, but the possibility for this installment to go in the same kind of route is a bit concerning.
We already have 3 new franchises (without including Miis and 3rd party), and it seems that they're still adding as much characters from previous series.
Smash Bros is about all these series clashing together, not just about Mario and Pokemon (just examples)
Now that all the "important" characters from previous franchises like Diddy, Wario, King Dedede have finally been added. I think it's time to focus on adding more series. I feel series like, Advance Wars, Chibi-Robo, Custom Robo, Xenoblade, Rhythm Heaven and more importantly Golden Sun, should all have a playable rep now for this Smash.

The way development is going now might be completely different. All three previous installement of Smash had something "getting in its way".
-64: It was the first one, and it was a low budget game that wasn't even supposed to be released worldwide
-Melee: Very short and rushed development time. Despite that, it still turned out superb
-Brawl: SSE apparently took a big chunk of the development time and might have been rushed near the end too
Now with SSB4, they have decent development time, and there won't be any kind of SSE game.
But they are working on two games at the same time so I'm hoping this doesn't affect development as much.
If it doesn't, then I don't see why we should be expecting cuts AND not as many newcomers or more.
Also find that, for the veterans, there's a lot of porting over from Brawl with almost no changes.
There are, however, things that could have possibly hindered the development of Smash 4:
-As stated before, maybe making two games at the same time (even if they are almost the same)
-Even if they're is a lot of porting, there is a lot more characters to deal with, plus all the other stuff (items, customization, stages, etc.)
-HD games apperently take longer to make, and that may be the case for the Wii U version.
-It's very possible that the 3DS version had big bugs that were hard fix, which wasted development time.
Sakurai did say in an interview that development for this installement was going more smoothly than the previous Smash, so that's a good sign if true.
He also mentions he wants to make SSB4 the "number one character game". So far we have a ton of characters, so he may have already accomplished that, but I believe that we may be getting a lot more newcomers than we think.
In the end, no, a bigger roster, better development, etc. does not exactly equal Isaac, but it would help him a lot.

Nothing has been shown from the Golden Sun series so far, and Isaac hasn't been shown as an assist trophy either. That could be good sign or not mean anything at all.
In my opinion, it's a good thing, because I feel he would have been shown by now.
The reason mainly being because of the way he deconfirms or introduces characters as assist trophies.
Like I mentioned earlier, many of those characters are requested ones. It sorta of a "nice" way to get it over with now and not have fans be disappointed in the game at release. Like Waluigi, Midna, Skull Kid for example.
There's nothing to prove if that's his way of thinking. It's still a possibility however.
I really feel that after all this wait, if Isaac is still an assist trophy, it would just be a kick in the face for Golden Sun fans. If they changed his model to Adult Isaac then it should have been in an early POTD, saying like, "hey look, we changed the model of Isaac from Brawl or w/e". If Isaac is still his young self, then same thing, should have been in a POTD or in the Assist Trophy montage)
In any case, if Isaac is still has a AT status, no matter how we find out now, it's way too late, whether it's during these next 3 weeks or after release.
In fact, stuff like Advance Wars, and Custom Robo imo should all have made an appearance by now.
All the unrepped franchises from Brawl, there's no point in keeping them unlockable again, or, keeping the fans of the series in the dark like that. We know they're coming, it would just be lame of him to not have any early notice if they still all get AT'd again, especially Golden Sun.
I don't make the rules obviously, it's just how I feel.
Other notes:
-Takamaru was pretty highly requested too, especially in Japan, yet he revealed him as a assist trophy pretty late. However, it's possible he was mostly expected to be the next "retro" character, rather than a really wanted one. The retro characters (including GW and ROB) all came in as surprises, maybe Sakurai wouldn't think it'd be the same if so many people expected him. (Duck Hunt Dog, yea, that's pretty unexpected).
-Ghirahim was also pretty popular and introduced late... but if we're going by series, Zelda has for sure 5 characters (potentially 6) compared to 0... He's also petty recent compared to Isaac.

There's also fans' thoughts on how Sakurai might be teasing characters:
-The very first tease would be the Boxing ring for Little Mac
-Another one is Ridley's shadow. Might not equal to playable status, but still a tease for a highly requested character.
Golden Sun and Isaac doesn't appear to have anything like that. The only thing would be maybe Robin, which has the same name as Isaac in Japan, and is a swordman who can use elemental attacks (and maybe his shoes... ._.).
That's thinking into it waaay too much, however a few individuals have made these remarks, so it's not too crazy to think that this hasn't crossed Sakurai's mind. (Maybe while working on Isaac's moveset it inspired Sakurai into adding Robin in Smash as well )
Also teasing Golden Sun would be a lot harder because it might be too obvious.
Although the boxing ring kinda gave it away that Little Mac was playable, but almost everyone thought he was a shoe-in before that anyways. And the Smash logo did throw some people off.

Lots of potential for a unique moveset.
Popular Series and one of the most wanted character in the West and in Europe
Has 3 games, sold about 3 million combined
First two games were critically acclaimed
Could represent the GBA era, and a Handheld only franchise (Great fit for Smash's first handheld debut)
Last game released 4 years (1 year ago if you only count when Sakurai finished planning the roster)
Golden Sun games are being released on the Wii U eshop
Series has has been created about 13 years ago (Still not retro status, but still old enough)
Camelot is Second Party, but they are a company that's been making games only for Nintendo for14 years
It's possible that Camelot is working on a new Golden Sun game as we speak
He was in Brawl as an unlockable assist trophy, and there was a Golden Sun music too
This kind of series (imo) needs a "special surprise" treatment so it needs more than just have an assist trophy for this Smash
It's been too long, If he's still an assist trophy, I think he should have been shown months ago, or any Golden Sun content should have been shown.
This Smash development team is bigger, and they're not doing another SSE, so should save some time
Smash Bros needs more unrepped series added, like Golden Sun
He's not "AT material" like some other assists, and he was not an AT from a series that already have playable reps.

Isaac is one the top characters that is being requested to be playable, and he has one thing that a lot of those characters don't.
His series is not already repped.
Fans of Ridley and K.Rool have been waiting forever, and what happened to Mewtwo sucks, but at least these characters have always had their series represented well in all of the Smash Bros games.
If Isaac is not playable again, than that most likely means no Stage, just one Music maybe, and almost no content.
I'm not trying to say, that these characters/series should be ignored. All I'm saying is that there has been little to no representation for a series like Golden Sun. It would be lame to again relegate an entire series to an assist trophy and a music when it could offer much much more.
Also, fans of the series have been waiting a long time as well, even before some other series have been born that are likely to get a playable rep.
In the end it's all up Sakurai. As I've said before, I find his decisions for the rosters are always pretty good for the most part, and I'm sure if he had all the time in the world he would include him. I just hope that Isaac is not in the bottom of the priorities list for this Smash
He's a character with loads of potential, games sold well, is pretty popular, series has recency, and was created over a decade ago.
I personally feel that you just can't ignore a series like that again. And in my opinion, putting him in a assist trophy again would be ignore it.
Thanks to his assist trophy status in Brawl, he should be (and I hope) one of the first characters to be considered.
Sure, there's other series with 3 or more games, created over decade ago, sold many games, etc.
However if you put all of the above together, I don't think there's any other unrepped series in the same situation that Isaac is in.
I won't say he's a shoe-in because only Sakurai's decision matters, but I find it's at a point where he pretty much HAS to be in.
With all the leaks and what is happening now, at this point, I'm just hoping he at least doesn't show up as a Assist Trophy, so that he can be added as DLC later.

Note: Some good points I've missed have been mentioned by many of you. Arteen had some good points too, like the mentioning of Golden Sun at E3 Conferences.
Also, this is what I've been writing up before that big leak. I have another post regarding the leak and Isaac, but I'll put it on another post, because this is getting way to long. I'll wait till somebody else posts so I don't double post.

Sabrewulf238 · Aug 28, 2014

Oracle_Summon said:
If any of these things happen then the leak is disproven:

Lucas is confirmed playable.

Dr. Mario is Mario's alternate costume.

Dark Pit is Pit's alternate costume or has another role.

Ganondorf is the Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt Dog is shown to be in a role other than playable.

Personally, I would say wait until the Direct happens.

The first one will have no effect on the leak. (or at least our perception of the leak)

Since everyone would just believe Lucas is one the five characters missing from the CSS. (Same goes for any character not in the leak really)

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Sabrewulf238 said:
The first one will have no effect on the leak. (or at least our perception of the leak)

Since everyone would just believe Lucas is one the five characters missing from the CSS. (Same goes for any character not in the leak really)

He is specifically described by all the leakers as being cut, though. It would at the very least blow away all the "speculative" parts of the leak.

BluePikmin11 · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
I've been writing this up for awhile now. A big chunk of what I'm going state below has already been mentioned before or could not mean much, but I thought I'd share anyways.
Warning though, it's a big wall of texts. So if any of you are really bored, feel free to read through it.
(Sorry for any grammar or spelling errors. Feel free to correct my mistakes if you want, I'd actually appreciate that.
Also some facts I'm going to bring up are from wikipedia and vgchartz which may or may not be true)

Here's why I think Isaac (or a character Golden Sun) should be a playable character and still has a decent chance.

Sakurai says he's looking for potential and uniqueness when choosing playable characters.

There's so much to take from the Golden Sun series that there would be no problem making a unique moveset for a character from the series.

Some could say that Robin decreases Isaac chances, because he is a swordman that uses elemental magic. However, Robin doesn't use Earth elemental magic, have djiins, and the ability to summon a Giant hand, which are big things that make Isaac unique.

I won't say more on this because you guys have brought up so many possible examples of how he could work.

Though, I will say that I can totally see Sakurai making his moveset mostly revolve around the Hand psyenergies like Move, Pound, and Force

People seem to believe that Isaac does not have much of a chance because of the lack of Golden Sun games recently and also seem believe that it's never getting a 4th game. But, I find that they are exaggerating a bit.

It's only been 4 years since Dark Dawn has been release. (which is not that long in my opinion).

Brawl had 6 years between its release and Lost Age.

Golden Sun now having 3 games in the series is better than 2, so if anything, Isaac's chances are definitely better now than it was during the Brawl-era.

Thinking about it, we actually shouldn't be counting the 4 years since Golden Sun had a game but should be counting how long it had a game since the time Sakurai was planning the roster.

I think Sakurai said he finished planning the roster around early 2012, so that means only about a year had past since Golden Sun's last game was released during that time. (Dark Dawn was release close to the end of 2010) He could have been thinking about the roster even longer than that

Brawl supposedly started development in 2005, so that's about 3 years between Lost age and Brawl's release. It's not much, but it's still longer compared to now.

Golden Sun is also on the same boat as some other franchises who got a playable character rep.

Ness's and Samus's inclusion for example. They've had 2-3 games in their series but still got in (First smash Bros, but should still be mentioned)

Olimar is the best example for this. During the Brawl-era, he was a modern character with only 2 games, and his last game was released 4 years prior to Brawl's release, just like Isaac. And yet he still got in as a playable character.

Little Mac's last game was released 5 years ago, and he still gets to be playable. The only big thing Little Mac has over Isaac, is that he's much more older (Also has 3 games plus Arcade ones).

Another thing to note, is that a couple of already repped franchises haven't gotten games for awhile. Metroid hasn't had a game since 4 years as well, and Falcon even longer.

So no Golden Sun sequel for 4 years (Or 1 year, whatever way you want to look at it) is not a bad at all, and it is not as "irrelevant" as a few people like to claim.

In terms of Golden Sun getting a fourth installement.

Camelot has been working on the Mario Tennis/Golf for awhile now, but what I found a little suspicious is the amount of time it took them to make the latest entries.

It took them 2 years each to release the Mario Tennis/Golf entries for the 3DS, when, before, they were able to release those within about a year apart, even the ones for the Gamecube. Mario Golf for the 3DS got mysteriously delayed for a couple of months as well.

Mario Tennis 3DS was apparently incredibly simple with no RPG element. Mario Golf 3DS had no RPG adventure as well.

Though maybe the fact that both had online features could have caused more development time and Mario Golf could have been delayed because of the extra DLC stuff.

However, it could also mean that they are taking that extra time to work on a new Golden Sun game as well. (A stretch but not impossible)

In Brawl, Isaac was added as a assist trophy, and for an unrepped modern series, it means he was big enough to be in Sakurai's mind and that's a very good thing. Golden Sun even got a remixed music included in the game as well. (The composer for Golden Sun is working on Smash once again and that's a good sign as well)

I also think Isaac being an unlockable in Brawl makes it all the more special, even though it was just an assist trophy.

I noticed that the 3 unlockable assist trophies that you unlock after playing "Brawl" after a certain number of

times, are from unrepped series that definitely could have gotten a playable character.

-Isaac: Highly requested, Critically acclaimed games, had 2 games.

-Ray: Probably was requested a lot in Japan, had 5 games

-Advance Wars: Pretty much deserves a playable rep after so many games since the NES.

I personally think Sakurai sees surprise unlockables like this as being very special. So maybe this was meant as a "I didn't forget about these franchises, just didn't have the time to make a playable rep for them, but take this as a gift instead".

In which, this could have come as a nice surprise to many fans who thought their favorite franchise would have gotten ignored.

Other than that, having unlockable assist trophies is a bit pointless (imo)

Three things that may ruin this secret surprise thing, sadly:

-Little Mac wasn't unlockable (Though he was shown in the DOJO, so that's something I guess)

-Advance Wars Unit was apparently available in the Brawl Demo, which kinda ruins the surprise for some.

-Barbara was also unlockable. By finding 25 songs (But maybe she or her game was popular in japan?)

The thing that's weird though, is that there seems to be no Stickers at all from Golden Sun in Brawl (correct me if I'm wrong). But there were stickers for other unrepped series that have unlockable assist trophies, even 3rd party franchise. So I'm wondering what was up with that?

Golden Sun might be first party, but could also fall into the second party category, which may or may not hurt his chances.

However, Camelot has been developing games for Nintendo (and only Nintendo) for about 14 years now. So even though they're not owned by Nintendo, I still think it's fair to include a character from a game that they've worked on (that does not relate to Mario).

There has been playable characters from second party series (Pokemon, Kirby, Mother). Though, Pokemon is extremely popular, the other series are from HAL which developed the first 2 Smash Bros and have/are probably helped/helping with the other ones too.

But I don't think second party should be an issue, since we have now four 3rd party series that's been included in games that's supposed to be about Nintendo.

Another thing I noticed, in around 2005-2007, Camelot was almost going to release a PC game (called "I love Golf") after a long time sticking with Nintendo, but eventually cancelled that and decided to release it on the Wii instead. I doubt that would have affected Isaac's chances, but that did happen during the development of Brawl...

Some individuals think that Sakurai is bias and just adds whatever character he wants or likes, but I disagree.

Sure, he seems to like to play with people's minds but he isn't "evil", he obviously cares for this series and its fans. I don't agree with all his decisions, but most of time I think he makes the right choices, especially with the rosters.

When people assumes Sakurai adds characters that "deserves it", they're not exactly wrong.

Deserving characters, being popular ones and/or important to Nintendo's History.

I really think that importance, sales, and impact plays a big role on his decisions for the roster.

Examples of that are, Mario (if you count Yoshi and Wario) and Pokemon always have the most rep, and that there's newcomers like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer

The only reason Villager wasn't in Brawl was because Sakurai couldn't make up a moveset for it, however Animal Crossing still had a decent amount of representation in the game.

Noteworthy things that make Golden Sun deserve a spot in the roster:

-Golden Sun debuted in the Gameboy Advance era with two games, both games were critically acclaimed.

-Has been created over a decade ago. Might not have a retro status, but still old enough.

-First Golden Sun was pretty much best selling game that was original, and not a sequel or a remake.

-After 7 years, the series gets a third game which sold a decent amount.

-First two games sold over a million copies each. (It's not much compare to stuff like Wii Fit or Animal Crossing, but that's the same amount series like Kirby and Metroid have. I find that's pretty good for an handheld RPG, especially for a first entry)

-Three games combined sold about 3 millions

-Games are being released on the Wii U eshop recently.

-The series could represent the Gameboy Advance era

-Series debuts-
Arcade: Punch out, Mario, Donkey Kong
GW: Game&Watch
NES: Zelda, Metroid, Mother, Metroid, Ice Climbers, Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, ROB
SNES: Yoshi, Starfox, F-zero
Gameboy: Pokemon, Kirby, Wario
N64: Animal Crossing
GBA: (Nothing debuted)
GCN: Pikmin
DS: (Missing one as well)
Wii: Wii Fit

I believe it's pretty clear that Sakurai knows who are the popular characters/series that people want, and I doubt that he ignores any the requests, unless they're unreasonable.

Two of the big reasons why assist trophies exists, is to put popular characters in and to represent franchises that couldn't/can't be made playable (due to time, not made for smash bros, etc).

Even now, we are seeing even more highly requested characters that appear as new assist trophies.

Cases like Paletuna's addition isn't (only) because Sakurai was involved in the making of Kid Icarus Uprising. The game is recent, pretty popular and Palutena was also highly requested, especially in Japan. (Though I am not okay with how much work he put into her move customizations. Miis already represents "true" moveset customization. All that extra work could have been put into a newcomer or at least 2 veterans. One of the reason, why I'm expecting big things from the roster or at least the game in general).

We shouldn't forget that Smash Bros is also considered its own franchise, so that also plays a role in choosing reps.

Many say that Starfox didn't deserve 3 rep in Brawl. Whether that's true or not, maybe the reason it did was because Fox and Falco were pretty "popular" characters in Melee (Wolf was also apparently supposed to be in Melee instead of Falco as well).

Lucas didn't end up replacing Ness in Brawl (like he was supposed to in Melee) because Ness was already an iconic character in the Smash Bros franchise.

Same reason why characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff come back for the next Smash titles.

Back then, I'm positive he knew, to an extent, how much Isaac was popular, and even today I'm sure he knows that they're still many fans that want him in.

Isaac is popular in America, but not so much in Japan.

But let's not forget, there's other places besides America and Japan. Isaac is also a highly requested character in Europe.

I stumbled in a leak thread from a French General Video Game site, and right off bat, I see people talking about Isaac (He's called Vlad there apparently)

I even checked on their Isaac Thread on the same site, and the thread is still pretty alive today.

Like I mentioned above, I really believe Sakurai loves surprises, and feels that he wants fans to view them as special treats. (The way he feels about SSE being uploaded on the internet early kinda hints to that)

Characters like Ridley, for example, are really popular and I'm sure Sakurai knows that. SSE was a pretty Big deal, and he added him as two Bosses, each with a boss intro cutscene. I think this, even though he ended up not being playable, was definitely meant to be seen as a "special surprise".

This is why I personally can't see Ridley being just a boss on a stage for SSB4.

For a character that popular, I think he's definitely going to be either a playable boss or character. I'm sure many people would be as furious to see him as a playable boss, but if he's not playble normally then he needs something almost as special as getting a new normal character. (all imo of course)

Same thing for Isaac. Golden Sun had a lot of fans that wanted to him included in Smash ever since pre-brawl. Some fans wanted him ever since the release of its first game, so over a decade.

Him being an unlockable assist trophy again (or an assist trophy in general) would not give that "special surprise" that I think the series deserves, especially after finally getting a new game.

It's like 99.9% sure that there is going to be Golden Sun content in the game, so there would be no point in having him unlockable again.

During the Brawl-era, it was also 99.9% sure that there was going to be F-zero content in the game, yet it was still hidden until release. Though it still got a character, assist trophy, stages, and multiple music. That's a lot more meaningful compared to a assist trophy and possibly one music.

Nevertheless, I find Golden Sun needs a lot more representation than just what he got in Brawl and could possibly get again..

There has never been a playable rep for Golden Sun for Smash before and yet it still has a good amount of popularity, even it's not as much as before.

A lot franchises/characters, aside from like Mario, Zelda and Pokemon, might not have been as popular if it weren't for Smash's help. So it's very noteworthy that the seires and character is still as popular today.

One thing that's concerning, is that besides Pokemon and GW there hasn't been a playble character from a series with only handheld games. With the Smash Bros series now coming to handheld, I'm hoping this changes.

Another thing that's concerning, is how many new franchises is added in each new installement.

In Melee, 3 new franchises were added.

In Brawl, 4 new franchises were added (if we exclude 3rd party and include Wario and ROB as a franchise).

Though if you count Wario as a Mario character, and group the Retros together, you're left with only one new series added in Melee and Brawl.

It seems there was more focus on adding to already repped franchises (and retros) rather than adding new ones.

Two is not a pattern of course, but the possibility for this installment to go in the same kind of route is a bit concerning.

We already have 3 new franchises (without including Miis and 3rd party), and it seems that they're still adding as much characters from previous series.

Smash Bros is about all these series clashing together, not just about Mario and Pokemon (just examples)

Now that all the "important" characters from previous franchises like Diddy, Wario, King Dedede have finally been added. I think it's time to focus on adding more series. I feel series like, Advance Wars, Chibi-Robo, Custom Robo, Xenoblade, Rhythm Heaven and more importantly Golden Sun, should all have a playable rep now for this Smash.

The way development is going now might be completely different. All three previous installement of Smash had something "getting in its way".

-64: It was the first one, and it was a low budget game that wasn't even supposed to be released worldwide

-Melee: Very short and rushed development time. Despite that, it still turned out superb

-Brawl: SSE apparently took a big chunk of the development time and might have been rushed near the end too

Now with SSB4, they have decent development time, and there won't be any kind of SSE game.

But they are working on two games at the same time so I'm hoping this doesn't affect development as much.

If it doesn't, then I don't see why we should be expecting cuts AND not as many newcomers or more.

Also find that, for the veterans, there's a lot of porting over from Brawl with almost no changes.

There are, however, things that could have possibly hindered the development of Smash 4:

-As stated before, maybe making two games at the same time (even if they are almost the same)

-Even if they're is a lot of porting, there is a lot more characters to deal with, plus all the other stuff (items, customization, stages, etc.)

-HD games apperently take longer to make, and that may be the case for the Wii U version.

-It's very possible that the 3DS version had big bugs that were hard fix, which wasted development time.

Sakurai did say in an interview that development for this installement was going more smoothly than the previous Smash, so that's a good sign if true.

He also mentions he wants to make SSB4 the "number one character game". So far we have a ton of characters, so he may have already accomplished that, but I believe that we may be getting a lot more newcomers than we think.

In the end, no, a bigger roster, better development, etc. does not exactly equal Isaac, but it would help him a lot.

Nothing has been shown from the Golden Sun series so far, and Isaac hasn't been shown as an assist trophy either. That could be good sign or not mean anything at all.

In my opinion, it's a good thing, because I feel he would have been shown by now.

The reason mainly being because of the way he deconfirms or introduces characters as assist trophies.

Like I mentioned earlier, many of those characters are requested ones. It sorta of a "nice" way to get it over with now and not have fans be disappointed in the game at release. Like Waluigi, Midna, Skull Kid for example.

There's nothing to prove if that's his way of thinking. It's still a possibility however.

I really feel that after all this wait, if Isaac is still an assist trophy, it would just be a kick in the face for Golden Sun fans. If they changed his model to Adult Isaac then it should have been in an early POTD, saying like, "hey look, we changed the model of Isaac from Brawl or w/e". If Isaac is still his young self, then same thing, should have been in a POTD or in the Assist Trophy montage)

In any case, if Isaac is still has a AT status, no matter how we find out now, it's way too late, whether it's during these next 3 weeks or after release.

In fact, stuff like Advance Wars, and Custom Robo imo should all have made an appearance by now.

All the unrepped franchises from Brawl, there's no point in keeping them unlockable again, or, keeping the fans of the series in the dark like that. We know they're coming, it would just be lame of him to not have any early notice if they still all get AT'd again, especially Golden Sun.

I don't make the rules obviously, it's just how I feel.

Other notes:

-Takamaru was pretty highly requested too, especially in Japan, yet he revealed him as a assist trophy pretty late. However, it's possible he was mostly expected to be the next "retro" character, rather than a really wanted one. The retro characters (including GW and ROB) all came in as surprises, maybe Sakurai wouldn't think it'd be the same if so many people expected him. (Duck Hunt Dog, yea, that's pretty unexpected).

-Ghirahim was also pretty popular and introduced late... but if we're going by series, Zelda has for sure 5 characters (potentially 6) compared to 0... He's also petty recent compared to Isaac.

There's also fans' thoughts on how Sakurai might be teasing characters:

-The very first tease would be the Boxing ring for Little Mac

-Another one is Ridley's shadow. Might not equal to playable status, but still a tease for a highly requested character.

Golden Sun and Isaac doesn't appear to have anything like that. The only thing would be maybe Robin, which has the same name as Isaac in Japan, and is a swordman who can use elemental attacks (and maybe his shoes... ._.).

That's thinking into it waaay too much, however a few individuals have made these remarks, so it's not too crazy to think that this hasn't crossed Sakurai's mind. (Maybe while working on Isaac's moveset it inspired Sakurai into adding Robin in Smash as well )

Also teasing Golden Sun would be a lot harder because it might be too obvious.

Although the boxing ring kinda gave it away that Little Mac was playable, but almost everyone thought he was a shoe-in before that anyways. And the Smash logo did throw some people off.

Lots of potential for a unique moveset.

Popular Series and one of the most wanted character in the West and in Europe

Has 3 games, sold about 3 million combined

First two games were critically acclaimed

Could represent the GBA era, and a Handheld only franchise (Great fit for Smash's first handheld debut)

Last game released 4 years (1 year ago if you only count when Sakurai finished planning the roster)

Golden Sun games are being released on the Wii U eshop

Series has has been created about 13 years ago (Still not retro status, but still old enough)

Camelot is Second Party, but they are a company that's been making games only for Nintendo for14 years

It's possible that Camelot is working on a new Golden Sun game as we speak

He was in Brawl as an unlockable assist trophy, and there was a Golden Sun music too

This kind of series (imo) needs a "special surprise" treatment so it needs more than just have an assist trophy for this Smash

It's been too long, If he's still an assist trophy, I think he should have been shown months ago, or any Golden Sun content should have been shown.

This Smash development team is bigger, and they're not doing another SSE, so should save some time

Smash Bros needs more unrepped series added, like Golden Sun

He's not "AT material" like some other assists, and he was not an AT from a series that already have playable reps.

Isaac is one the top characters that is being requested to be playable, and he has one thing that a lot of those characters don't.

His series is not already repped.

Fans of Ridley and K.Rool have been waiting forever, and what happened to Mewtwo sucks, but at least these characters have always had their series represented well in all of the Smash Bros games.

If Isaac is not playable again, than that most likely means no Stage, just one Music maybe, and almost no content.

I'm not trying to say, that these characters/series should be ignored. All I'm saying is that there has been little to no representation for a series like Golden Sun. It would be lame to again relegate an entire series to an assist trophy and a music when it could offer much much more.

Also, fans of the series have been waiting a long time as well, even before some other series have been born that are likely to get a playable rep.

In the end it's all up Sakurai. As I've said before, I find his decisions for the rosters are always pretty good for the most part, and I'm sure if he had all the time in the world he would include him. I just hope that Isaac is not in the bottom of the priorities list for this Smash

He's a character with loads of potential, games sold well, is pretty popular, series has recency, and was created over a decade ago.

I personally feel that you just can't ignore a series like that again. And in my opinion, putting him in a assist trophy again would be ignore it.

Thanks to his assist trophy status in Brawl, he should be (and I hope) one of the first characters to be considered.

Sure, there's other series with 3 or more games, created over decade ago, sold many games, etc.

However if you put all of the above together, I don't think there's any other unrepped series in the same situation that Isaac is in.

I won't say he's a shoe-in because only Sakurai's decision matters, but I find it's at a point where he pretty much HAS to be in.

With all the leaks and what is happening now, at this point, I'm just hoping he at least doesn't show up as a Assist Trophy, so that he can be added as DLC later.

Note: Some good points I've missed have been mentioned by many of you. Arteen had some good points too, like the mentioning of Golden Sun at E3 Conferences.
Also, this is what I've been writing up before that big leak. I have another post regarding the leak and Isaac, but I'll put it on another post, because this is getting way to long. I'll wait till somebody else posts so I don't double post.

I'm curious about your stance with Dark Dawn, do you think it's a hindrance to Golden Sun getting a playable representative? (No negative vibe here, just curious)

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

BluePikmin11 said:
I'm curious about your stance with Dark Dawn, do you think it's a hindrance to Golden Sun getting a playable representative? (No negative vibe here, just curious)

No. While many fans of the older games did have some major issues about it, and we're really vocal about it, especially early on, it did bring in a ton of new players. And most of the people who played it as their first Golden Sun game absolutely adored it.

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

Sabrewulf238 said:
The first one will have no effect on the leak. (or at least our perception of the leak)

Since everyone would just believe Lucas is one the five characters missing from the CSS. (Same goes for any character not in the leak really)

It is the fact that most "leakers" claim him as being cut as to why it would disprove the "leak".

BluePikmin11 said:
I'm curious about your stance with Dark Dawn, do you think it's a hindrance to Golden Sun getting a playable representative? (No negative vibe here, just curious)

I don't see how getting another game in an existing franchise hurts his chances. Especially when it comes out a couple of years before SSB4's conception stage or, "the stage where Sakurai chooses characters".

Sabrewulf238 · Aug 28, 2014

Skyblade12 said:
He is specifically described by all the leakers as being cut, though. It would at the very least blow away all the "speculative" parts of the leak.

Oh really? I didn't hear that part. I thought it was just the gematsu leak that specifically said he might be cut.

Even then.....aren't there two of the recent leakers with conflicting lists of remaining characters? Not to mention the leaker who lied about the dlc.

I'm not trusting anything unless it's gameplay footage. There's no guarantee these leakers know anything beyond the ESRB footage they got their hands on.

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Sabrewulf238 said:
Oh really? I didn't hear that part. I thought it was just the gematsu leak that specifically said he might be cut.

Even then.....aren't there two of the recent leakers with conflicting lists of remaining characters? Not to mention the leaker who lied about the dlc.

Yes. They completely disagree on which characters are the remaining five. They both have different leak content to "support" their claims.

They also both specifically stated Lucas was cut.

I'm not trusting anything unless it's gameplay footage. There's no guarantee these leakers know anything beyond the ESRB footage they got their hands on.

I'm trusting the official sources and not much else. It's funny that anytime something is wrong with the leaks, it's listed as "oh, the leakers adjusted it themselves just to troll us" (Disablad, DLC leak). Yet everything else is apparently unquestionable. The leakers have ZERO credibility, in my mind.

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

Sabrewulf238 said:
I'm not trusting anything unless it's gameplay footage. There's no guarantee these leakers know anything beyond the ESRB footage they got their hands on.

Beyond Bowser Jr., there is really nothing that gets me to support the "leak" as credible, and even then it is a very low percentage of support.

And it is best to mainly trust gameplay footage; however, just remember that some are really convincing when it comes to those.

Skyblade12 said:
I'm trusting the official sources and not much else. It's funny that anytime something is wrong with the leaks, it's listed as "oh, the leakers adjusted it themselves just to troll us" (Disablad, DLC leak). Yet everything else is apparently unquestionable. The leakers have ZERO credibility, in my mind.

I always wondered why some people always think that is a credible excuse; especially now when being wrong cannot be covered with "outdated information" as the supposed "leakers" are supposed to be ESRB employees who have the official copy of the game that is supposedly to be released.

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Oracle_Summon said:
I always wondered why some people always think that is a credible excuse; especially now when being wrong cannot be covered with "outdated information" as the supposed "leakers" are supposed to be ESRB employees who have the official copy of the game that is supposedly to be released.

Not true. The ESRB sees game footage, they don't have the game itself, and the game was rated since E3, so they had a build likely at least as old as the E3 build.

Although the E3 build still looked way better than the leaked one.

I still can't stop hoping for Golden Sun 4 tomorrow. Dang you all.

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

Skyblade12 said:
Not true. The ESRB sees game footage, they don't have the game itself, and the game was rated since E3, so they had a build likely at least as old as the E3 build.

Although the E3 build still looked way better than the leaked one.

In response to bold: Exactly.

I thought the supposed "leak information" indicated that the ESRB had the game itself.

DraginHikari · Aug 28, 2014

After having watched the video footage a couple dozen times, I only am accepting certains aspects of the roster and pictures leaks due to the matching information that matches with the video footage of Shulk and Bowser Jr. wihch at that point I do not believe is falsified due to a number of factors within the video.

Doesn't really mean I accept everything we've seen since and before the videos as necessary true but it does to some degree make it far more convincning then most leaks we are used to dealing with in general.

Either way I don't think the leak makes any impact on Isaccs actual chances.

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Oracle_Summon said:
In response to bold: Exactly.

I thought the supposed "leak information" indicated that the ESRB had the game itself.

No.

There was a big rumor circulating (with no evidence supporting it whatsoever) that said that the leaker was a Nintendo of America employee responsible for sending the ESRB the data and videos to rate. This leaker, after being caught and fired, was reported to still have a copy of the game.

I think that entire bit is absolutely hilarious.

DraginHikari said:
After having watched the video footage a couple dozen times, I only am accepting certains aspects of the roster and pictures leaks due to the matching information that matches with the video footage of Shulk and Bowser Jr. wihch at that point I do not believe is falsified due to a number of factors within the video.

Doesn't really mean I accept everything we've seen since and before the videos as necessary true but it does to some degree make it far more convincning then most leaks we are used to dealing with in general.

Either way I don't think the leak makes any impact on Isaccs actual chances.

Then let's stop talking about it and start speculating on Isaac's role in Golden Sun 4.

DraginHikari · Aug 28, 2014

Skyblade12 said:
No.

There was a big rumor circulating (with no evidence supporting it whatsoever) that said that the leaker was a Nintendo of America employee responsible for sending the ESRB the data and videos to rate. This leaker, after being caught and fired, was reported to still have a copy of the game.

I think that entire bit is absolutely hilarious.

Then let's stop talking about it and start speculating on Isaac's role in Golden Sun 4.

More prefer to do that when we know there is a Golden Sun 4.

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

Skyblade12 said:
No.

There was a big rumor circulating (with no evidence supporting it whatsoever) that said that the leaker was a Nintendo of America employee responsible for sending the ESRB the data and videos to rate. This leaker, after being caught and fired, was reported to still have a copy of the game.

I think that entire bit is absolutely hilarious.

I find it funny and false at the same time.

Anyways, what would you personally hope that Isaac's Trailer contains?

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Oracle_Summon said:
I find it funny and false at the same time.

Obviously. There's no possible way he'd have a copy of the game. They can't be removed from the office, let alone the whole legal implications of keeping company property, especially after he'd been caught, arrested, and sued for more than he owns. It's so clearly fake, yet everyone still believes it.

Anyways, what would personally hope that Isaac's Trailer contains?

Some nods towards gameplay elements that aren't going to make it in.

Let's face it, there is no possible way they can highlight everything Isaac can do in this game. You can easily build an entire moveset just around Psynergy. In which case, at least show some Djinn in the trailer. Things like that.

Gotann · Aug 28, 2014

BluePikmin11 said:
I'm curious about your stance with Dark Dawn, do you think it's a hindrance to Golden Sun getting a playable representative? (No negative vibe here, just curious)

Mmm no, I don't think so. Like many are saying, I think it would do the opposite, an extra game in the series that's been released recently would actually help it.
I really thought people really hated Dark Dawn, but when I'm reading through this thread, it seems more like they felt that it wasn't as good as the others. Which is a pretty common thing for sequels, like Other M for example, even 3D World got some flack. Expectations, especially when the prequels were so great.
It feels like some other people have not really played the game but are just repeating what they have heard about it or just misinterpret what they've heard.
If Vgchartz info holds true, then 700 thousand copies sold is still pretty good, I find. The game still got good reviews, even if they were not as good as Golden Sun 1 and 2.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure Sakurai is going to focus more on the fact that series got a new game recently than the game not being as good as the others.

EDIT: Apparently VgChartz is really bad, so ignore that part. But I'd assume it didn't sell that badly compared to his prequels.

BSTCloud · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
Mmm no, I don't think so. Like many are saying, I think it would do the opposite, an extra game in the series that's been released recently would actually help it.
I really thought people really hated Dark Dawn, but when I'm reading through this thread, it seems more like they felt that it wasn't as good as the others. Which is a pretty common thing for sequels, like Other M for example, even
3D World got some flack. Expectations, especially when the prequels were so great.
It feels like some other people have not really played the game but are just repeating what they have heard about it or just misinterpret what they've heard.
If Vgchartz info holds true, then 700 thousand copies sold is still pretty good, I find. The game still got good reviews, even if they were not as good as Golden Sun 1 and 2.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure Sakurai is going to focus more on the fact that series got a new game recently than the game not being as good as the others.

I hate to be "that guy" but VGChartz is garbage, dude literally makes up the numbers to fill his web.

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
Mmm no, I don't think so. Like many are saying, I think it would do the opposite, an extra game in the series that's been released recently would actually help it.
I really thought people really hated Dark Dawn, but when I'm reading through this thread, it seems more like they felt that it wasn't as good as the others. Which is a pretty common thing for sequels, like Other M for example, even
3D World got some flack. Expectations, especially when the prequels were so great.
It feels like some other people have not really played the game but are just repeating what they have heard about it or just misinterpret what they've heard.
If Vgchartz info holds true, then 700 thousand copies sold is still pretty good, I find. The game still got good reviews, even if they were not as good as Golden Sun 1 and 2.

Yep. And it was still a good game.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure Sakurai is going to focus more on the fact that series got a new game recently than the game not being as good as the others.

If you need evidence of this: All the Other M content for Metroid.

BluePikmin11 · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
Mmm no, I don't think so. Like many are saying, I think it would do the opposite, an extra game in the series that's been released recently would actually help it.
I really thought people really hated Dark Dawn, but when I'm reading through this thread, it seems more like they felt that it wasn't as good as the others. Which is a pretty common thing for sequels, like Other M for example, even
3D World got some flack. Expectations, especially when the prequels were so great.
It feels like some other people have not really played the game but are just repeating what they have heard about it or just misinterpret what they've heard.
If Vgchartz info holds true, then 700 thousand copies sold is still pretty good, I find. The game still got good reviews, even if they were not as good as Golden Sun 1 and 2.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure Sakurai is going to focus more on the fact that series got a new game recently than the game not being as good as the others.

Well this is an Isaac support thread, so normally you would still see some light on Dark Dawn even if it's been critically acclaimed as bad.

Oracle_Summon · Aug 28, 2014

Skyblade12 said:
Obviously. There's no possible way he'd have a copy of the game. They can't be removed from the office, let alone the whole legal implications of keeping company property, especially after he'd been caught, arrested, and sued for more than he owns. It's so clearly fake, yet everyone still believes it.

Precisely. Plus, those actions are illogical. You really want to go through all that crap just in an attempt to have internet fame?

Let's face it, there is no possible way they can highlight everything Isaac can do in this game. You can easily build an entire moveset just around Psynergy. In which case, at least show some Djinn in the trailer. Things like that.

Personally, I would love Djinn as enemies in Smash Run. Defeating enemies that give you power boosts sound exactly like Djinn.

BluePikmin11 said:
Well this is an Isaac support thread, so normally you would still see some light on Dark Dawn even if it's been critically acclaimed as bad.

Are you implying that Dark Dawn was critically acclaimed as bad in the sense the game was terrible or not as good as its predecessors? The second part is the one that I think you are implying.

Actually, I have run across people who absolutely despise Metroid Other M in the Ridley support thread. Just because there is a thread about supporting a character does not mean that people will automatically like the games in the Franchise.

JaidynReiman · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
Mmm no, I don't think so. Like many are saying, I think it would do the opposite, an extra game in the series that's been released recently would actually help it.
I really thought people really hated Dark Dawn, but when I'm reading through this thread, it seems more like they felt that it wasn't as good as the others. Which is a pretty common thing for sequels, like Other M for example, even
3D World got some flack. Expectations, especially when the prequels were so great.
It feels like some other people have not really played the game but are just repeating what they have heard about it or just misinterpret what they've heard.
If Vgchartz info holds true, then 700 thousand copies sold is still pretty good, I find. The game still got good reviews, even if they were not as good as Golden Sun 1 and 2.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure Sakurai is going to focus more on the fact that series got a new game recently than the game not being as good as the others.

I wouldn't count on it being that high, but I highly doubt Dark Dawn only sold less than 100,000 copies.

Turmalinium · Aug 28, 2014

If Isaac is confirmed maybe Sakurai would announce that there is a point of no return for unlocking Isaac and he did this because he was inspired by Dark Dawn. :troll:

Gotann · Aug 28, 2014

Alright, here's another write up I made after the big leak. Most (if not, all) of my points below are opinions, just thought I'd make that clear. A lot of points does not exactly relate to Isaac, but kinda does (So I apologize in advance if anything is off-topic).
Warning again, still lots of rambles and texts.

What I think about the leak and and what it means for Isaac.

It's very possible that what was shown in the leak is outdated or incomplete. ERSB Video or not, we don't know every single detail of how the company work and we don't know exactly when these pics and videos were taken. So, it's too quick to jump to the conclusion that everything from the leak is final.
However, If that's all the character and stages, and there's nothing more after that, then this game is in trouble...
I mean, the 3DS will do just fine I'm sure, but the Wii U...
Alright, first and foremost I want to say this, I would be fine with this character roster. I won't say it's perfect, but it's pretty typical comparing it to what we had before. It's adding more to the popular franchises (Mario, Pokemon), adding Retros and (Duck Hunt, Pac-Man), adding new characters from recent entries (Fire Emblem, Uprising) and of course some clones. Nothing too special. The new characters for the most part look great, and very excited to play some of them.

There's several audience that Nintendo must cater to for this game. I'll focus mostly on these three:
-"Casual" Nintendo Fans (Young or Old)
-"Hardcore" Nintendo Fans who are not hard please. Will accept almost anything that Nintendo throws at them
(Not a bad thing. That's just called not being difficult)
-"Hardcore" Nintendo Fans who are hard please. Will only be please until they get what they want (Not a bad thing either. It's just called getting your money's worth)
***When I say "casual" and "hardcore", I mean people who are not into video games that much VS people who are really into it, of course. Although people are different all-around and it's not just black and white, I'm still going generalize this just to get my points across. Please bare with me.****

We can definitely, say that when it comes to Smash Bros pretty much 90% of the fanbase are only, if not mostly, going to care about which characters gets in as playable.
Something that we must accept is that most of market consists of the casuals. When you look at this roster, the character picks are pretty smart actually, because it is very casual friendly.
You got new Mario and Pokemon characters, franchises that casuals will surely know.
You got Villager, Wii Fit Trainer and Miis, games that are mostly made for casuals.
You also have characters from recent 3DS games (FE Awakening and KI Uprising). Many people own a 3DS and it's likely that a quite a few casuals will recognize them, or might be interested in trying out theses games since they own the console.
There's the old casual fans as well, and will easily recognize old characters like Duck Hunt Dog, Little Mac and Pac-Man.
So in the end this roster will appeal, to both the casuals and some of hardcores.
(There's also Shulk which I don't think many casuals will recognize, but he is at least really requested in Japan, so there's that I guess. Plus, in my opinion, Shulk looks really weird... looks unfinished, like he was a last minute addition or least added late in development)

While half of the hardcore fans are okay or quite please with this roster, the other half however find this roster disgusting, either because of the amount of cuts or the fact that some of the highly requested characters are not present. What about wanted characters like Ridley and Mewtwo? Will Sakurai and Nintendo be fine with not putting them because they know most of the hardcore fanbase are going to buy the game anyways. If the casuals are on board and the easy to please hardcore as well, then things should be fine, right?
I thought that, until I remembered about the Wii U and its struggles.
When I also looked at the stage select screen from the leak. And well, this is just a pretty bad stage selection.
-A lot of classic stages. Takes about 1/3 of the stages
-All of them are available in Brawl. The previous installement
-Abundance of New Mario stages (They even put a classic one as well)
-Some Series stages are only represented by classic stages (Two that have appeared 2 times in a row already... )
-Three 2D stages (I like them so far, but some may find them lazy)
-2 stages also available on the Wii U

I have casual friends that think that Brawl is practically the same game as Melee. What are they going to think when they see this?
So far, most of veterans have very little changes. I've played both demo versions and gameplay feels similar to Brawl. It's the game that feels the most similar to its previous entry (And I doubt it's going to change that drastically). And now, a lot of stages from the VERY PREVIOUS Smash are back?
It's going to give a bad impression to some of the casuals who've played Brawl before and they are probably going to complain, since it's something they can easily notice.
So now you have about half of the hardcores complaining about their fav characters not being in or cut, and casuals becoming disinterested because they heard/find that the game looks the same as the previous one. Other people will likely join in on the hate bandwagon, even gamers who don't even own a Nintendo system. It's going to get a bad reputation, which might not affect the 3DS version much, but will most likely affect the Wii U one.

With characters, they could prevent all that potential bad rep. Like I said above, for Smash, the only thing
people seem to talk and care about is playable characters. Give the characters people want, and they probably won't care much about the other bad stuff. So it'd be crazy to think that Nintendo will not do after release DLC for this game.

Yes I know, Sakurai said that they have no plans for DLC and they might not do it. Though, Sakurai also didn't think characters like Villager or Miis could be made into playable characters, so even he can change his mind too. And given the situation of the Wii U it would surprise me that they wouldn't take that chance. It also baffles that many are so sure this game won't have DLC, just because of that quote.
Besides, of course he's going to say things like that, he wants you to buy the game as soon as possible, not wait for your fav character to be DLC.
No matter how stubborn Sakurai may be, I'm sure he wants Nintendo to succeed as much as they do.
It would even surprise me if they wouldn't reveal a character or two as DLC right before the release of the Wii U. Even if the 3DS would be able to get those characters as well, it would still bring hype, and hype is good (see PS4).
No matter what exclusive modes they may have in store for the Wii U, it's most likely not going to do much by itself. Especially if it's not as big as SSE, which seems like the case. And I don't think Amiibos and Holiday timing are going to help that much either.
It's kinda harsh to say, but the situation Nintendo is in with the Wii U is very good for us, because now they'll need to be doing these kind of things. They need to bring out more characters because that's what people want, and they're in a situation where they can't exactly ignore fan requests like that.

I agree with a lot of the decisions Sakurai makes and disagree with some. In Brawl, I could see where he was going for when he was "dumbing down" the gameplay for casuals, but I think he overdid it. (The exclusion of a playable Isaac in Smash 4, would be another thing I would disagree on

)
For his roster choices from the leak, again, I agree with it because it appeals to casuals right off the bat.
In regards to DLC, which group do you think is most likely buy them, casual or hardocre? I'm pretty sure a lot of the casuals wouldn't want to spend their money on stuff like that.
Characters like Isaac will probably mean nothing to them, because they might be too young or too old.
So characters like that are better off as DLC, because it will appeal more to us.
Yes, Nintendo would be exploiting us, but they are a business after all and if our fav characters finally get in, then I think that's a win-win for everybody

(Now that Golden Sun is available on the Wii U VC it will get introduced to more people, including some casuals, which is a very good for Isaac)
The other argument I've seen against this idea, is that DLC is too expensive to make. However, other smaller companies have no problem doing DLC. Nintendo is a big company and Smash is a big game, so I don't see the issue.

Cases like Ridley, I'm sure he's playable because of the way Sakurai's been handling him. Do you really think it's smart to fool around with one of top characters in the West that's going to appear on the console that's struggling....
I respect Sakurai enough to think he wouldn't be that stupid to make Ridley just a stage boss after all that hyping and teasing. It's not about fans choosing to believe he was playable after seeing that shadow. It's about Sakurai allowing it to go this far.
Unfortunately, you have to treat the gaming community today a certain way before things get out of hand, and potentially affecting sells. You don't want to spur the kind of negativity that this might result when your console needs help.
The worst that could happen that he is indeed a boss but a playable one, which I could see the good intentions behind it. But I'm sure even Sakurai knows that it's not a good idea.

For DLC stages, well, even if there is more stages coming for the 3DS as DLC, I still think taht releasing the game with only the ones from the leak will give a bad impression. So I hope the stage select screen pic is at least incomplete or the image was altered in some way.
Maybe it's just me and I'm being paranoid. The majority of people here didn't seem to care about the leak stages pic, and only talked about the characters or how to properly arrange the CSS and stuff. (Another an example of how this game is mostly about the characters and everything else is an after-thought)

I also I have a weird feeling about the CSS. It feels unprofessional visually. I would be fine with it, but I think having it scroll or have pages, and make it the way they had it in the demo would look much better. Even the one in the demo isn't that much better. But I could see people having an issue of not being able to see all the characters in a single screen. I just have a small gut feeling that it might have been altered in some way as well. Just an opinion though.

Another important thing to note, is Sakurai's games are usually ambitious. Look at how much they were able to do with Melee with only a year of development. How much content there was in Brawl with 3 years. KI Uprising had a ton of content as well apparently.
Now with looking at the Smash 3DS and what it offers, it doesn't seem as ambitious, especially for a Smash game.
Sure, the Wii U could have a big mode that the 3DS doesn't have, but I don't think it's going to be much much bigger than Smash Run.
I think the reason why Sakurai wants to make the roster for the 3DS and Wii U the same is because he wants both owners to have the same quality experience for this generation of Smash even if they might be a bit different (if they were to only own one).
In terms of content, Brawl definitely has more than Melee, since it was its sequel. However, if you look at the 3DS one so far, it doesn't seem like that much of an upgrade from Brawl. Brawl had SSE, added about 17 characters, changed the veterans more, tried making clones more unique, and many more content. Smash 4 still delivers of course, but still doesn't feel as upgraded.
If you would buy both Wii U and 3DS then I'm sure it would, but that would defeat the purpose of what I think he's trying to accomplish.
If they have many DLC characters coming along the way, then all would be fine because, again, that's what the consumers care most about than a few extra modes.
I find we shouldn't take Sakurai's word lightly when he says he wants to make the number one character game, because maybe that's where all of the crazy amount of content that we usually get in Smash is going to be.

Well, it's pretty much guaranteed that character DLC is happening at some point. Especially now, with the recent announcement of the Mario Kart 8 DLC.
Even if Isaac doesn't make it into the roster at release, he still has high chance of being DLC. The only disappointment would be waiting longer.
People say that he might be an unlockable assist again because he was before. I will say it again, it doesn't make sense of him being unlockable, ESPECIALLY since he was before. And if he was still an assist then I personally feel would have showed up by now. We can see that a lot of requested characters are no where to be seen, and I think they will also be candidates for DLC.
DLC does not automatically equal Isaac for sure, but it does increase his chances, that's pretty much all he needs.
As soon as fans see that DLC is possible, they are going to be relentless in requests for their favorite characters. That's we have to do our part for Isaac as well. Frankly, I can see the requests being non-stop but they would be able to decrease them by adding reasonable fan favorites.
Even if Isaac does end up as an assist, I feel it's still not useless to keep requesting him. It's possible to replace the assist with Matthew or Felix. Though I could understand fans giving up. It's not impossible but seems unlikely.

In the end, it's not about being optimistic or pessimistic, it's about thinking about this in different angles. The best way to think about it is in a business point of view (with a bit hope as well

). That's the way Nintendo and Sakurai are surely going to think about it. I'm not a business person, but Smash plus DLC characters makes too much sense.
Nintendo is in a spot where they have to rely on these kind of strategies. Mario Kart 8 gave them a good boost, and they better handle Smash well to not let that boost go in vain. I'm positive that Nintendo will want to get every penny they can possibly get from people like us, and DLC characters are the best way to do it.
Or they might be fools and not do anything after release.. Unfortunately, there are those possible outcomes as well..
Nintendo and Sakurai have the opportunity to this now. This is the important game for the Wii U, and I'm confident enough that they will make the smart decision.

Weirdly, the leak actually gives me more hope for hope Isaac, mainly because the big requested characters are missing. If characters like Ridley or Mewtwo were present then yea, I'd be a bit more worried, but still not to a point where I think all hope is gone.
I'm not trying to get people's hopes up and I'm not being overly optimistic here, anybody can think what they want.
I'm just looking for logical reasons why he should be in and why he still has a good chance. It can definitely go either way.
I personally think it's likely that Isaac won't be on the roster at release, but I think it's even more likely that he's going to be DLC later otherwise. In my eyes, It's not over till the very end for Isaac.

I might make a TL;DR Version for this too, but maybe later, too tired. :tired:

Skyblade12 · Aug 28, 2014

I think Dark Dawn sold better than most people think. RPGs aren't short, and you do have to get a ways into the game to really start noticing the things that the fans objected to. It sold a lot early on, especially to the fans of the originals, before people even realized the issues.

LasermasterA · Aug 28, 2014

Oracle_Summon said:
I find it funny and false at the same time.

Anyways, what would you personally hope that Isaac's Trailer contains?

Oh my you shouldn't have asked! There are so many things I want to see the trailer! Although I am getting sleepy now and am finding it hard to put into words...

I would definitely want to see his signature moves such as Odyssey and/or Ragnarok. Plus if he still has a weaker version of "move" than great! Plus we can't forget moves like Gaia! And I would like to see Force! He punches the opponent with psynergy. Isaac trolls

I can't remember how I imagined the cinematic reveal to be but it was epic! I would also like to see homage to Djinns if they are not in the game and atleast one summon!

Skyblade12 said:
I think Dark Dawn sold better than most people think. RPGs aren't short, and you do have to get a ways into the game to really start noticing the things that the fans objected to. It sold a lot early on, especially to the fans of the originals, before people even realized the issues.

Yea Dark Dawn actually sold great. Plus whoever played it first absolutely loved it! Except some people who were turned off by the really lengthy dialogues.

I would like to see some cool reveal in this 3DS reveal! Some new game would be a nice way to debunk the leak as well as announce an epic game! Like how a Golden Sun 4 reveal would essentially guarantee Isaac a spot! Even a Metroid 3DS would be good news!

I will come with more ideas for Isaac trailer tomorrow, for now good night! Well for me atleast

JaidynReiman · Aug 28, 2014

Gotann said:
Alright, here's another write up I made after the big leak. Most (if not, all) of my points below are opinions, just thought I'd make that clear. A lot of points does not exactly relate to Isaac, but kinda does (So I apologize in advance if anything is off-topic).
Warning again, still lots of rambles and texts.

What I think about the leak and and what it means for Isaac.

It's very possible that what was shown in the leak is outdated or incomplete. ERSB Video or not, we don't know every single detail of how the company work and we don't know exactly when these pics and videos were taken. So, it's too quick to jump to the conclusion that everything from the leak is final.
However, If that's all the character and stages, and there's nothing more after that, then this game is in trouble...
I mean, the 3DS will do just fine I'm sure, but the Wii U...
Alright, first and foremost I want to say this, I would be fine with this character roster. I won't say it's perfect, but it's pretty typical comparing it to what we had before. It's adding more to the popular franchises (Mario, Pokemon), adding Retros and (Duck Hunt, Pac-Man), adding new characters from recent entries (Fire Emblem, Uprising) and of course some clones. Nothing too special. The new characters for the most part look great, and very excited to play some of them.

There's several audience that Nintendo must cater to for this game. I'll focus mostly on these three:
-"Casual" Nintendo Fans (Young or Old)
-"Hardcore" Nintendo Fans who are not hard please. Will accept almost anything that Nintendo throws at them
(Not a bad thing. That's just called not being difficult)
-"Hardcore" Nintendo Fans who are hard please. Will only be please until they get what they want (Not a bad thing either. It's just called getting your money's worth)
***When I say "casual" and "hardcore", I mean people who are not into video games that much VS people who are really into it, of course. Although people are different all-around and it's not just black and white, I'm still going generalize this just to get my points across. Please bare with me.****

We can definitely, say that when it comes to Smash Bros pretty much 90% of the fanbase are only, if not mostly, going to care about which characters gets in as playable.
Something that we must accept is that most of market consists of the casuals. When you look at this roster, the character picks are pretty smart actually, because it is very casual friendly.
You got new Mario and Pokemon characters, franchises that casuals will surely know.
You got Villager, Wii Fit Trainer and Miis, games that are mostly made for casuals.
You also have characters from recent 3DS games (FE Awakening and KI Uprising). Many people own a 3DS and it's likely that a quite a few casuals will recognize them, or might be interested in trying out theses games since they own the console.
There's the old casual fans as well, and will easily recognize old characters like Duck Hunt Dog, Little Mac and Pac-Man.
So in the end this roster will appeal, to both the casuals and some of hardcores.
(There's also Shulk which I don't think many casuals will recognize, but he is at least really requested in Japan, so there's that I guess. Plus, in my opinion, Shulk looks really weird... looks unfinished, like he was a last minute addition or least added late in development)

While half of the hardcore fans are okay or quite please with this roster, the other half however find this roster disgusting, either because of the amount of cuts or the fact that some of the highly requested characters are not present. What about wanted characters like Ridley and Mewtwo? Will Sakurai and Nintendo be fine with not putting them because they know most of the hardcore fanbase are going to buy the game anyways. If the casuals are on board and the easy to please hardcore as well, then things should be fine, right?
I thought that, until I remembered about the Wii U and its struggles.
When I also looked at the stage select screen from the leak. And well, this is just a pretty bad stage selection.
-A lot of classic stages. Takes about 1/3 of the stages
-All of them are available in Brawl. The previous installement
-Abundance of New Mario stages (They even put a classic one as well)
-Some Series stages are only represented by classic stages (Two that have appeared 2 times in a row already... )
-Three 2D stages (I like them so far, but some may find them lazy)
-2 stages also available on the Wii U

I have casual friends that think that Brawl is practically the same game as Melee. What are they going to think when they see this?
So far, most of veterans have very little changes. I've played both demo versions and gameplay feels similar to Brawl. It's the game that feels the most similar to its previous entry (And I doubt it's going to change that drastically). And now, a lot of stages from the VERY PREVIOUS Smash are back?
It's going to give a bad impression to some of the casuals who've played Brawl before and they are probably going to complain, since it's something they can easily notice.
So now you have about half of the hardcores complaining about their fav characters not being in or cut, and casuals becoming disinterested because they heard/find that the game looks the same as the previous one. Other people will likely join in on the hate bandwagon, even gamers who don't even own a Nintendo system. It's going to get a bad reputation, which might not affect the 3DS version much, but will most likely affect the Wii U one.

With characters, they could prevent all that potential bad rep. Like I said above, for Smash, the only thing
people seem to talk and care about is playable characters. Give the characters people want, and they probably won't care much about the other bad stuff. So it'd be crazy to think that Nintendo will not do after release DLC for this game.

Yes I know, Sakurai said that they have no plans for DLC and they might not do it. Though, Sakurai also didn't think characters like Villager or Miis could be made into playable characters, so even he can change his mind too. And given the situation of the Wii U it would surprise me that they wouldn't take that chance. It also baffles that many are so sure this game won't have DLC, just because of that quote.
Besides, of course he's going to say things like that, he wants you to buy the game as soon as possible, not wait for your fav character to be DLC.
No matter how stubborn Sakurai may be, I'm sure he wants Nintendo to succeed as much as they do.
It would even surprise me if they wouldn't reveal a character or two as DLC right before the release of the Wii U. Even if the 3DS would be able to get those characters as well, it would still bring hype, and hype is good (see PS4).
No matter what exclusive modes they may have in store for the Wii U, it's most likely not going to do much by itself. Especially if it's not as big as SSE, which seems like the case. And I don't think Amiibos and Holiday timing are going to help that much either.
It's kinda harsh to say, but the situation Nintendo is in with the Wii U is very good for us, because now they'll need to be doing these kind of things. They need to bring out more characters because that's what people want, and they're in a situation where they can't exactly ignore fan requests like that.

I agree with a lot of the decisions Sakurai makes and disagree with some. In Brawl, I could see where he was going for when he was "dumbing down" the gameplay for casuals, but I think he overdid it. (The exclusion of a playable Isaac in Smash 4, would be another thing I would disagree on )
For his roster choices from the leak, again, I agree with it because it appeals to casuals right off the bat.
In regards to DLC, which group do you think is most likely buy them, casual or hardocre? I'm pretty sure a lot of the casuals wouldn't want to spend their money on stuff like that.
Characters like Isaac will probably mean nothing to them, because they might be too young or too old.
So characters like that are better off as DLC, because it will appeal more to us.
Yes, Nintendo would be exploiting us, but they are a business after all and if our fav characters finally get in, then I think that's a win-win for everybody
(Now that Golden Sun is available on the Wii U VC it will get introduced to more people, including some casuals, which is a very good for Isaac)
The other argument I've seen against this idea, is that DLC is too expensive to make. However, other smaller companies have no problem doing DLC. Nintendo is a big company and Smash is a big game, so I don't see the issue.

Cases like Ridley, I'm sure he's playable because of the way Sakurai's been handling him. Do you really think it's smart to fool around with one of top characters in the West that's going to appear on the console that's struggling....
I respect Sakurai enough to think he wouldn't be that stupid to make Ridley just a stage boss after all that hyping and teasing. It's not about fans choosing to believe he was playable after seeing that shadow. It's about Sakurai allowing it to go this far.
Unfortunately, you have to treat the gaming community today a certain way before things get out of hand, and potentially affecting sells. You don't want to spur the kind of negativity that this might result when your console needs help.
The worst that could happen that he is indeed a boss but a playable one, which I could see the good intentions behind it. But I'm sure even Sakurai knows that it's not a good idea.

For DLC stages, well, even if there is more stages coming for the 3DS as DLC, I still think taht releasing the game with only the ones from the leak will give a bad impression. So I hope the stage select screen pic is at least incomplete or the image was altered in some way.
Maybe it's just me and I'm being paranoid. The majority of people here didn't seem to care about the leak stages pic, and only talked about the characters or how to properly arrange the CSS and stuff. (Another an example of how this game is mostly about the characters and everything else is an after-thought)

I also I have a weird feeling about the CSS. It feels unprofessional visually. I would be fine with it, but I think having it scroll or have pages, and make it the way they had it in the demo would look much better. Even the one in the demo isn't that much better. But I could see people having an issue of not being able to see all the characters in a single screen. I just have a small gut feeling that it might have been altered in some way as well. Just an opinion though.

Another important thing to note, is Sakurai's games are usually ambitious. Look at how much they were able to do with Melee with only a year of development. How much content there was in Brawl with 3 years. KI Uprising had a ton of content as well apparently.
Now with looking at the Smash 3DS and what it offers, it doesn't seem as ambitious, especially for a Smash game.
Sure, the Wii U could have a big mode that the 3DS doesn't have, but I don't think it's going to be much much bigger than Smash Run.
I think the reason why Sakurai wants to make the roster for the 3DS and Wii U the same is because he wants both owners to have the same quality experience for this generation of Smash even if they might be a bit different (if they were to only own one).
In terms of content, Brawl definitely has more than Melee, since it was its sequel. However, if you look at the 3DS one so far, it doesn't seem like that much of an upgrade from Brawl. Brawl had SSE, added about 17 characters, changed the veterans more, tried making clones more unique, and many more content. Smash 4 still delivers of course, but still doesn't feel as upgraded.
If you would buy both Wii U and 3DS then I'm sure it would, but that would defeat the purpose of what I think he's trying to accomplish.
If they have many DLC characters coming along the way, then all would be fine because, again, that's what the consumers care most about than a few extra modes.
I find we shouldn't take Sakurai's word lightly when he says he wants to make the number one character game, because maybe that's where all of the crazy amount of content that we usually get in Smash is going to be.

Well, it's pretty much guaranteed that character DLC is happening at some point. Especially now, with the recent announcement of the Mario Kart 8 DLC.
Even if Isaac doesn't make it into the roster at release, he still has high chance of being DLC. The only disappointment would be waiting longer.
People say that he might be an unlockable assist again because he was before. I will say it again, it doesn't make sense of him being unlockable, ESPECIALLY since he was before. And if he was still an assist then I personally feel would have showed up by now. We can see that a lot of requested characters are no where to be seen, and I think they will also be candidates for DLC.
DLC does not automatically equal Isaac for sure, but it does increase his chances, that's pretty much all he needs.
As soon as fans see that DLC is possible, they are going to be relentless in requests for their favorite characters. That's we have to do our part for Isaac as well. Frankly, I can see the requests being non-stop but they would be able to decrease them by adding reasonable fan favorites.
Even if Isaac does end up as an assist, I feel it's still not useless to keep requesting him. It's possible to replace the assist with Matthew or Felix. Though I could understand fans giving up. It's not impossible but seems unlikely.

In the end, it's not about being optimistic or pessimistic, it's about thinking about this in different angles. The best way to think about it is in a business point of view (with a bit hope as well ). That's the way Nintendo and Sakurai are surely going to think about it. I'm not a business person, but Smash plus DLC characters makes too much sense.
Nintendo is in a spot where they have to rely on these kind of strategies. Mario Kart 8 gave them a good boost, and they better handle Smash well to not let that boost go in vain. I'm positive that Nintendo will want to get every penny they can possibly get from people like us, and DLC characters are the best way to do it.
Or they might be fools and not do anything after release.. Unfortunately, there are those possible outcomes as well..
Nintendo and Sakurai have the opportunity to this now. This is the important game for the Wii U, and I'm confident enough that they will make the smart decision.

Weirdly, the leak actually gives me more hope for hope Isaac, mainly because the big requested characters are missing. If characters like Ridley or Mewtwo were present then yea, I'd be a bit more worried, but still not to a point where I think all hope is gone.
I'm not trying to get people's hopes up and I'm not being overly optimistic here, anybody can think what they want.
I'm just looking for logical reasons why he should be in and why he still has a good chance. It can definitely go either way.
I personally think it's likely that Isaac won't be on the roster at release, but I think it's even more likely that he's going to be DLC later otherwise. In my eyes, It's not over till the very end for Isaac.

I might make a TL;DR Version for this too, but maybe later, too tired.

For the stage list, I'm 100% positive it is NOT the full list of stages. I think we've got at least 6 more stages we don't know about, which includes a new DK and Metroid stage. If F-Zero and Mother can get new stages, there is no way DK and Metroid will not get a new stage, either. Probably even Star Fox, as well.

As far as Isaac is concerned... I personally think things look good for Isaac still, and I frankly think Ridley is still in as well. And yes, I do fully believe the leaked footage is from an outdated build.

Adeptmune · Aug 28, 2014

About "casual" and "hardcore" gamers, I read an article recently that said Miyamoto is no longer going to try to cater to casuals and focus more on the hardcore/core gamers again.
Whether this has anything to do with Sm4sh or not, I don't know. It would be nice to see more franchises recognized by "core" gamers represented in the roster, though. (... Isaac...? ;; pls?)
(Apologies for the short post, I'm using my phone and it's a little tedious.)

CardStealer1 · Aug 28, 2014

If we do get a trailer tomorrow, my money would be on Shulk. Since Xenoblade was supposed to be a Japan exclusive game. But hopefully Isaac sneaks in with him.

Edit: Now thinking about, it would make since for a Ridley and Isaac trailer since Norfair was the only stage with Golden Sun music.

Aureola · Aug 28, 2014

Isaac's reveal trailer? I still think introducing him with Move is the best idea. Why? Because that's kinda his iconic... well, move. Also, if it was a newcomer trailer, people wouldn't get extremely confused on what his role is.

CardStealer1 said:
If we do get a trailer tomorrow, my money would be on Shulk. Since Xenoblade was supposed to be a Japan exclusive game. But hopefully Isaac sneaks in with him.

I thought it was only not going to be released in NA? The voice actors were all European, at least.

CardStealer1 · Aug 28, 2014

Aureola said:
Isaac's reveal trailer? I still think introducing him with Move is the best idea. Why? Because that's kinda his iconic... well, move. Also, if it was a newcomer trailer, people wouldn't get extremely confused on what his role is.

I thought it was only not going to be released in NA? The voice actors were all European, at least.

It was originally only released in Japan, but through the efforts of Project Rainfall, it was released in North America.

Another reason why the reveal ( if any) would be Shulk tomorrow is that he's one of the most wanted in Japan but is pretty much unknown anywhere else. Until Gematsu and the new leak struck of course.

Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

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