Is the time to start serious tier list discussion soon?

[WritersBlah]

As the title says, I think Smash 4's metagame is finally starting to take shape, and with EVO and CEO just around the corner, I think it might finally be time to start seriously talking about potentially forming the game's first official tier list. I don't mean NOW now, mind you, but once we get results back from these two major tournaments, do you guys think it might finally be time to start talking about this?

 

[clydeaker]

Yes, yes it is.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think things need to settle down a bit. Between the frequent patches and the legality of things not being very consistent it'd be hard to have much agreement on who goes where.

 

[Unknownkid]

Do we really need a tier list? Shouldn't we focus more on our matchups and improve our skills rather than relying some list that players put too much focus on.

 

[WritersBlah]

I think things need to settle down a bit. Between the frequent patches and the legality of things not being very consistent it'd be hard to have much agreement on who goes where.

That is a valid point. The EVO ruleset created SOME standard for players to follow, but a lot of rulesets are still all over the place. Maybe we should wait until we finally get a universal ruleset.

Do we really need a tier list? Shouldn't we focus more on our matchups and improve our skills rather than relying some list that players put too much focus on.

I don't think we ever really NEEDED a tier list for any Smash game, but they are a helpful resource for new players, not to mention they simply satiate the natural curiosity I think every Smash player has on "which characters are the best." Heck, even for the most balanced Smash game, Smash 64, they still have a tier list because as the metagame changes, knowing which characters are most known for dominating is an invaluable resource.

 

[Unknownkid]

I don't think we ever really NEEDED a tier list for any Smash game, but they are a helpful resource for new players, not to mention they simply satiate the natural curiosity I think every Smash player has on "which characters are the best." Heck, even for the most balanced Smash game, Smash 64, they still have a tier list because as the metagame changes, knowing which characters are most known for dominating is an invaluable resource.

You see, that is my problem with this. Players relying too much on "who are the best characters" abuse their traits and niche instead of improve their fundamentals. Seeing pro players jump from one top tier to another because some nerf weaken their character is disappointing to my eyes. I don't mind if you guys have multiple mains or counter pick but jumping from Sheik -> Diddy -> another character because your top character just not cutting...

That is why many other players and myself respect pro players like Amsa/TripleR. Yoshi/Kirby often seen as trash (Kirby still is) in Melee but it does stop them from develop their character's metagame and succeeding.

Of course, money is on the line so my opinion is just an opinion. Regardless, what I stated here is not going to change anything. As you stated, players want their tier list to feel better about themselves. It is sad that we are so focus on this rather than the game itself. Whatever... my rant here is done.

As you were.

 

[Ulevo]

This conversation should not happen until after EVO.

 

[LancerStaff]

This conversation should not happen until after EVO.

Somebody didn't read it through... He's asking if there's plans for discussion after EVO and CEO.

 

[Ulevo]

Somebody didn't read it through... He's asking if there's plans for discussion after EVO and CEO.

Yeah, you're right.

 

[Octavium]

I believe starting a discussion to make a tier list is a great idea, lots of newcomers are joining smash and the amount of research they have to do to know if their favorite character is viable is absurd.

I agree that some rely on the tier lists way too much, but that ends up being their problem, not a problem for us.

 

[LightLV]

As the title says, I think Smash 4's metagame is finally starting to take shape, and with EVO and CEO just around the corner, I think it might finally be time to start seriously talking about potentially forming the game's first official tier list. I don't mean NOW now, mind you, but once we get results back from these two major tournaments, do you guys think it might finally be time to start talking about this?

When haven't people been taking tier lists seriously? It doesn't take any significant amount of time to make a tier list, it's just a probability chart.

A day-1 tier list is no less relevant than the tier list people make 4 months down the line, it's not a singular process.

Mind you, there have been no characters that got buffed to the point of going from low to high tier, and no high-tiers nerfed to the point of dropping below A. We've had a good general tier list for the majority of Smash 4's lifetime, if your character isn't high-tier by now there's a grand chance they will never be.

You see, that is my problem with this. Players relying too much on "who are the best characters" abuse their traits and niche instead of improve their fundamentals.

As opposed to relying on what? If a new player comes into the game suspecting to play competitively, it'd probably be worth knowing which characters on the roster will get them the best mileage. There are no fundamentals you'll learn with a low-tier that wont carry over to a high-tier.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

It has been time... I think we're waiting until after EVO though. At least from what I can tell.

 

[warionumbah2]

We got 3 patches in less than a year, good luck making a valid list with patches coming frequently

 

[Diddy Kong]

still #1.

Also, stop complaining about everything, that might safe us from getting Patch'd.

 

[wedl!!]

after all the summer majors are over i think forming a backroom to make a tier list is a necessity.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Tier lists are hard to work with, man. Put in the hands of a few elites, you risk gaps in character knowledge letting viable, underrepresented characters slip down lower than they could or perhaps should have been. Put in the hands of the many, it turns into a popularity contest that doesn't necessarily reflect the subtleties of highest level play.

But they're still fun to think about. A lot of people can agree on a lot of placements, even if not all of them. Hell, I even have my own tier list.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This conversation should not happen until after EVO after 4 years when all the patching is done.

Fixed.

 

[|RK|]

Plus we have Lucas next month, lol

This is going to be way harder to do a tier list for than any other Smash game, IMO.

 

[AnchorTea]

I don't think that should happen after those two major tourney's, because this situation could happen:

Some player uses a character that... let's say... is very underrated. That player is skilled so he or she gets to the top 8. That character gets more attention due to that, and of course, the mains of said character will copy that player. Now players will claim that this character is overpowered, or gets hit on the "official" top tier list. Now people will claim that this character is "unfair" and will go high on the tier list.

TL;DR A serious discussion after those tourney's from the non-back room players won't be very smooth, because every player has his or her own opinion, and the sm4sh community may be divided once again.

 

[zpxociv]

A tier list should be hastily made right now so it can then be discussed and changed until the discussion attempts to change it become too hard, suggesting that it's become a fairly solid list. Having something to work with makes it all the more obvious what the tiers should really be and it would also be a good idea to try to not have an elitist back room that get to be tyrants over other opinions. It's just not the American way. We don't filter out election votes so are we saying we know better than America by having an elitist approach to deciding things here?

 

[AnchorTea]

A tier list should be hastily made right now so it can then be discussed and changed until the discussion attempts to change it become too hard, suggesting that it's become a fairly solid list. Having something to work with makes it all the more obvious what the tiers should really be and it would also be a good idea to try to not have an elitist back room that get to be tyrants over other opinions. It's just not the American way. We don't filter out election votes so are we saying we know better than America by having an elitist approach to deciding things here?

The backroom members make the tier list not out of opinions, but out of facts.

If one was made through opinions of the community, it would be bad. Villager would be top tier when he isn't. Link would be top tier when he doesn't even come close to the typical more viable characters. All that sort of mess just doesn't bode well, besides, if the sm4sh tier list should be based on opinions of the community, then why are the other tier list based on facts? Those tier list are doing well and are very accepted.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

A tier list should be hastily made right now so it can then be discussed and changed until the discussion attempts to change it become too hard, suggesting that it's become a fairly solid list. Having something to work with makes it all the more obvious what the tiers should really be and it would also be a good idea to try to not have an elitist back room that get to be tyrants over other opinions. It's just not the American way. We don't filter out election votes so are we saying we know better than America by having an elitist approach to deciding things here?

You had me for the first half. Then things got a little weird.

The backroom members make the tier list not out of opinions, but out of facts.

Wellllllll, let's not get carried away.

 

[AnchorTea]

Wellllllll, let's not get carried away.

I'm very sure that the backroom members aren't dumb enough to make something incredibly important to the meta out of opinions.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm very sure that the backroom members aren't dumb enough to make something incredibly important to the meta out of opinions.

You... are going to face a lot of disappointment in life.

 

[AnchorTea]

You... are going to face a lot of disappointment in life.

What exactly makes you think that it will be formed out of opinions instead of facts? The other tier lists was formed with facts.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

What exactly makes you think that it will be formed out of opinions instead of facts? The other tier lists was formed with facts.

There are precious few, if any, facts to do with Smash Bros tier lists. Yes, they can observe data and extrapolate tiers based on tournament results, but that's a results-table, not a tier list. You can observe character data and matchup data and try to measure out the strengths and weaknesses objectively, but we have seen many times that data and practical application often don't coincide. We can also try to somehow splice character data, matchup data and tournament results, but the decision-making process for how to prioritize that data will ultimately be subjective.

The absolute best we can hope for in a backroom tier list is the same as any other community tier list: that they are as educated and informed as possible in their guesses.

 

[AnchorTea]

There are precious few, if any, facts to do with Smash Bros tier lists. Yes, they can observe data and extrapolate tiers based on tournament results, but that's a results-table, not a tier list. You can observe character data and matchup data and try to measure out the strengths and weaknesses objectively, but we have seen many times that data and practical application often don't coincide. We can also try to somehow splice character data, matchup data and tournament results, but the decision-making process for how to prioritize that data will ultimately be subjective.

The absolute best we can hope for in a backroom tier list is the same as any other community tier list: that they are as educated and informed as possible in their guesses.

Well duh, an educated guess has to happen. If the tier list was created by the community or just by opinions without proper evidence, things would be chaotic.

 

[Unknownkid]

As opposed to relying on what? If a new player comes into the game suspecting to play competitively, it'd probably be worth knowing which characters on the roster will get them the best mileage. There are no fundamentals you'll learn with a low-tier that wont carry over to a high-tier.

Initially, I was going to remain silent but this line caught me. Nice work!

"As opposed to relying on what?" You cannot be serious. Let me ask you something... Why did you choose Link and Shulk as your mains over maining Little Mac, Sheik, Rosalina or Diddy (Pre-Patch)? At that time, they will give you the best mileage over Link and Shulk. Heck, Shulk was "low enough" to get a buff when the Wii U came out.
Do you remember in the Demo when everyone thought Megaman/Pikachu were terrible?

Look. When new players comes to Smash, they first get a grasp on the characters and find the ones they like/enjoy, fits their play style. If they want to get competitive, they will look up videos on this say character or go to discussion sites to discover techs for this character (My secondary is Swordfighter so don't come to me about not having something). Then go to local tournaments and test themselves along the mass. If they lose, then they reflect on what happen, comes back to the discussion sites and ask their fellow peers about the matchups. They get advice, improve, and maybe just maybe they win the tournament next time. Of course, that will be a perfect world.

I don't hate the tier list - it is part of competitive metagame. It is essential for its growth. It helps list the general advantage and disadvantage characters have all together. Its a cheat sheet for matchups. However, learning what to do in matchup is more important than using a character that has massive advantage in the matchup. Especially if you going to use "tier list is for new players who want to get competitive" line. I find this statement silly.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Tier lists are hard to work with, man. Put in the hands of a few elites, you risk gaps in character knowledge letting viable, underrepresented characters slip down lower than they could or perhaps should have been. Put in the hands of the many, it turns into a popularity contest that doesn't necessarily reflect the subtleties of highest level play.

But they're still fun to think about. A lot of people can agree on a lot of placements, even if not all of them. Hell, I even have my own tier list.

Wtf?
Bowser J.r that high?
Bowser that low?
DDD after Ganon (0_-)
HuH??

 

[zpxociv]

Ok, so tiers can't be made by just comparing raw move statistics? I think they can because all it really boils down to is mathematics. Everything is numbers and the only objective way to determine tiers is to define what the human limits are and that way you can sort out the potential actual human performance of each character. It could be as simple as TAS testing using rules that simulate human controller input and reaction limits to determine the outcome. Why not try the direct experimental approach? Just try it out with the two suspected best characters as a smaller-scale experiment.

 

[clydeaker]

I feel like a tier list reflects how skilled the players are with that character at the time rather than the in game characters statistics them self. Why is Diddy Kong considered a top tier character? Because Zero (Generally considered the best player at Smash 4) and Mew2king played with Diddy Kong and won Apex. It's the same thing with Rosalina (Debuz), Pac-Man (Abadango), and Sonic (6WX).

Look back on some of the first tier lists from Melee and Brawl, They are very different from the most recent tier lists. For example some characters were considered mid or low tiers until players showed how there characters could be played competitively like Armada (Peach), ChuDat (Ice Climbers), Mango (Jigglypuff), Isai (Captain Falcon), Axe (Pikachu), and many other players as well.

The first tier list I guarantee will not be perfect or even fairly accurate to what it will be in 10 years, but It will reflect the skill of the players with certain characters at the time. It's not the characters them self or the environment and circumstances so much, but the players behind the character that make the tier list.

I recommend, if you haven't already, to read this article by Forest Smith titled The Unbalanced Design of Super Smash Brothers: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.

 

[zpxociv]

...the hell it's just the players. Metaknight didn't move NOWHERE.

 

[DunnoBro]

Darn, thought this was gonna be a tier list for how serious characters are.

Duck hunt at absolute bottom tier.

 

[Shaya]

There were plans for post-apex that were basically snuffed out by the balance patch. If there is a balance patch for Lucas we're kinda paddling up **** creek.
An alternative could be iterative lists that are just "feels" rather than official (and are based off older/previous patch rather than the current live one), but it's hard to do things under that paradigm, most people I've personally brought up this idea too seem skeptical/disinterested.

 

[Corginado]

Darn, thought this was gonna be a tier list for how serious characters are.

Duck hunt at absolute bottom tier.

Hey, at least he's at the top for the "Tear-Producing Characters" tier list.~

No but seriously, people really do seem to respect pure aggression characters and take them a lot more seriously than characters setting up crafty walls and using impenetrable lines of poke damage. They praise and glorify the unbreakable sword, while ridiculing and crying at that impenetrable shield. But yup, another topic for another day I suppose.

Duck Hunt is lovably derp and goofy-styled at his core though! ♪

 

[Kurri ★]

A tier list should be hastily made right now so it can then be discussed and changed until the discussion attempts to change it become too hard, suggesting that it's become a fairly solid list. Having something to work with makes it all the more obvious what the tiers should really be and it would also be a good idea to try to not have an elitist back room that get to be tyrants over other opinions. It's just not the American way. We don't filter out election votes so are we saying we know better than America by having an elitist approach to deciding things here?

I know this was a while ago, but I'm curious, what were you thinking when you posted this?

 

[vegeta18]

all i can think of is why not make a tier list? Aslong as people know that everything on it isnt completely concrete, we can slowly update it and adjust it over time until its nearly perfect. There are quite a few different rulsets, but we can still make tier list assuming a few common rules are active. And maybe even 2 seperate tier lists, one for customs on and one for off.

Are people waiting for evo?

 

[Charey]

I don't think the patches that are being put out affect the creation of a tier list at all, generally they have one or two characters that get a lot of changes that would need a new placement and everyone else gets a minor tweak that isn't enough to move them even one spot on a tier list. Plus a tier list is just an overview of the current meta-game, characters having new winning strategies discovered will do more to shake up the list then any patches will.

If we wait for the end of patches then we will be slowing the Meta-game by never having a good feel for what characters you need to watch out for.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

Do we really need a tier list? Shouldn't we focus more on our matchups and improve our skills rather than relying some list that players put too much focus on.

A tier list is an important factor when considering matchups. It doesn't matter how much you agree with it or if you like it's existance, it's a helpful pointer on what characters you'll absolutely have to focus on. Not even that much for playing them but to get an understanding of what characters are played often, considered good, why they are considered good and what you'll have to watch out for.

My character choice isn't influenced by a tier list but many players will be. If I want to or not, I need to know what's the deal with Rosalina, Sheik and Diddy. I need to know what I can punish and how I can get punished myself.
Top tiers are also often going to be explored more than other characters, leading to many not so good players adapting a cookie cutter playstyle that is easy to spot and exploit in many cases.

TL;DR: You can get away with not knowing some customs Lucina may have but you should know Sheik inside out - if only to beat her. Tier lists help you decide on what characters to look at first in your matchup considerations.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The best you can do is a league of legends like feel one as long as the patches keep rolling out.

That really is the only comparison I got for a tier list of new age games.