Is SSB64 Still Worth Playing?

[The Star King]

clubba is right about everything

People need to understand when their tastes are subjective

 

[clubbadubba]

OMG Star King you just gave me my first signature. Now I'm always right!

Wait how do I get my signature to show up?

 

[The Star King]

Length of post has to be greater than length of signature (including quote tags)

 

[Shears]

Did you know gamecube controllers were made the most effective and ergonimically correct way from any controller ever made

ive heard this to be true on several different occasions and i have read articles about this so i will agree with you here. on some of the other things, maybe not.

 

[Spyro]

I'm just saying that when they made melee there was alot more put into the game... It's not just content... Melee is just more well rounded and was made more geared towards COMPETETIVE play.

This guy...

You should give it a try but if you want to keep going with It really up to you. If the game is good or not is all based around opinion, you can't actually prove one game is better than another.

It really just depends on what your preference is. I like Melee more than 64, now I still like 64, but I can't say that Melee is better cause there is no way to prove it.

 

[ballin4life]

There may not be quite the 64-esque combo depth in Melee, but the definition of "combo" in that game extends beyond consecutive hits. The characters are faster, and can adapt quicker/take advantage of broken hit strings, so reads and guesses factor into "combos" as well as connecting hits, which arguably adds even more depth to the Melee combo game over that of 64.

That can be seen as an advancement, no?

uh you can do all those things in 64 too. tech chases, reads, etc.

OMG Star King you just gave me my first signature. Now I'm always right!

Wait how do I get my signature to show up?

sigs are lame don't turn to the dark side clubba!

 

[TANK64]

^^You're lame.

and what Ballin' said, that's already in 64 lol. For most chars, chasing is easier to complete and guarantee the kill than a combo. And of course, reads and mindgames ect...

@Clubba, I immediately thought "sig worthy" when I saw that lol.

 

[Battlecow]

Both games are really complicated and it's dumb to say things like "more techskill better hur dur" or "More combos better hur dur." I've been guilty of it myself in the past, but the overall competitive experience is what we need to judge

IMO 64 is a much funner game to play and compete in, unless you're playing with Hyrule legal in which case it's still more fun semi-competitively but no fun at all to really compete in.

 

[asianaussie]

Melee was probably well-balanced by accident.

64 is still not super mega ultra serious, since the brackets aren't completely comprised of Falcon and upwards tiered characters (sans Isai). If there was lots of money involved, more top tiers would emerge. Isai would probably still go Ness because Ness is good.

**** is subjective, only objectively bad people throw objectivity around a topic like this.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

All the Smash games are just...different from each other. I believe in one interview, it was confirmed that Melee was p.much an accident. In the future, Sakurai plans to make stuff work like Brawl.

Really, they don't care much about the competitive scene. It's casual players the game targets.

And more tech skill doesn't necessarily make for a better game. I prefer Brawl over Melee(inb4 I get flamed) partly because I'm a mostly casual player, and because I like the slower gameplay and floatier physics. It's a matter of preference really.

 

[SSBPete]

brawl > melee > 64

Spoiler

in suckiness

 

[Morin0]

Melee 4 lyfe

 

[ZaXXoR]

Does that maybe explain why he's letting the development team do all that work for Smash 4? If we're lucky, and Nintendo was smart, they'll make it as competitive as 64 and Melee.

One can only hope right... I don't mean to be pessimistic, but from what they did with brawl, it seems that this game is taking the same direction as Halo, after Halo 3 bungie split up, and then the games get progressively worse, I think Sakurai feels that he should be able to cash out for making melee since it was so hard on him or something? I just don't see it happening with his motives.

And it's not my opinion its from an interview with Sakurai

i highly doubt melee was purposely geared toward competitive play.

as others have stated it's an opinion that melee is "more rounded" (what does this even mean?). see, i don't like melee because all the characters fall at 10000 mph and there's no combos and too much tech skill but that's just my opinion too

i really really doubt this considering Sakurai's apparent feelings about competitive play

Lol ya, there's no combos in melee -_- lmfao and I'm being called ignorant wow...


Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

Source: http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sak...ts-super-smash

Edit: It seems Sakurai is too geared towards Nintendos main goal of "Having fun" and "Playable by anyone" with brawl... this has always been how Nintendo is

 

[Claire Diviner]

The irony is that Smash 64 is the simplest Smash Bros. game in the series; no wavedashing, no air-dodging, no moonwalking, it's as basic as basic comes, yet it's still more competitive than Brawl with L-canceling and combos made possible, and it's still a very accessible game.

That aside, Sakurai mentioned he's leaving the balancing issues of Smash 4 to the development team, that way, all characters can be "competitively viable"... "Competitively": a word I never thought Sakurai will ever use. Any thoughts on this?

 

[clubbadubba]

Smash 4 will not be competitively balanced by a team of software engineers before its release. The only way to balance the game is to release it as a Beta version and let hardcore 64, melee, and brawl players get good and try to "break" the game. There is no way the development team is going to find all the tricks that will be employed in competitive play, and there is no way they will even be able to fathom what the best metagame will be. I would love it if they just released the game, kept up with the competitive scene, and as the competitive scene finds unbalanced aspects they could release patches to rebalance the game every so often like Blizzard does with SC2.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Smash 4 will not be competitively balanced by a team of software engineers before its release. The only way to balance the game is to release it as a Beta version and let hardcore 64, melee, and brawl players get good and try to "break" the game. There is no way the development team is going to find all the tricks that will be employed in competitive play, and there is no way they will even be able to fathom what the best metagame will be. I would love it if they just released the game, kept up with the competitive scene, and as the competitive scene finds unbalanced aspects they could release patches to rebalance the game every so often like Blizzard does with SC2.

Nintendo patching their games seem farfetched, and even I would sneer at the thought of Nintendo doing so. That was until they finally started updating the 3DS with the intent on patching Mario Kart 7 (among other games). It wouldn't be too much of a surprise if they decide to patch Smash 4 as well. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Morin0]

I doubt Nintendo would do that

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

brawl sadly might be a better game than 64

This post sadly might present an mere opinion

 

[Claire Diviner]

This post sadly might present an mere opinion

That's because it is.

The last thing we need is a 64 vs. Brawl/64 vs. Melee war on this board, do we?

 

[Morin0]

What I meant was that Nintendo might do patches for game breaking bugs like for example, it freezes the game. But a patch because X character's hitbox is too broken? Doubt it.

 

[Claire Diviner]

What I meant was that Nintendo might do patches for game breaking bugs like for example, it freezes the game. But a patch because X character's hitbox is too broken? Doubt it.

Sadly, you're probably right about that. Still, it doesn't hurt to have some optimism, I guess.

 

[ballin4life]

One can only hope right... I don't mean to be pessimistic, but from what they did with brawl, it seems that this game is taking the same direction as Halo, after Halo 3 bungie split up, and then the games get progressively worse, I think Sakurai feels that he should be able to cash out for making melee since it was so hard on him or something? I just don't see it happening with his motives.

yeah i think it's strange that companies always want to dumb their games down for the casual player. after all, casual players still loved games that had a huge competitive scene - like melee, halo 1, street fighter etc.

Lol ya, there's no combos in melee -_- lmfao and I'm being called ignorant wow...

heh i love when people say this. have you played smash64?

i admit i'm not a melee player but i've watched my fair share of melee "combo" videos and they primarily consist of tech chases and other move strings that don't truly combo. and that's fine - i still enjoy melee combo videos. but my statement still stands. maybe you're referring to chain grabs? or maybe there are combos in melee but they are so difficult to do that they don't show up in combo videos?

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

Source: http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sak...ts-super-smash

Edit: It seems Sakurai is too geared towards Nintendos main goal of "Having fun" and "Playable by anyone" with brawl... this has always been how Nintendo is

i don't think these quotes indicate that he specifically designed melee for the competitive players. maybe he's hinting that in hindsight melee turned out great for the competitive players at the expense of casual players, but i still doubt that that was his intention during the design process.

 

[Claire Diviner]

heh i love when people say this. have you played smash64?

i admit i'm not a melee player but i've watched my fair share of melee "combo" videos and they primarily consist of tech chases and other move strings that don't truly combo. and that's fine - i still enjoy melee combo videos. but my statement still stands. maybe you're referring to chain grabs? or maybe there are combos in melee but they are so difficult to do that they don't show up in combo videos?

Melee does have combos, and not just limited to strings, tech-chasing, or chain grabs. The hitstun is great enough to actually combo. Because the pace of the game is much faster, it may seem to you that there isn't enough time between hits to land another move, which isn't true. Smash 64 is easier to land combos because of the slower pace.

 

[Battlecow]

Melee has combos. They're not as long or as frequent as 64 combos. 64 combos are better IMO, but melee players seem to enjoy their little two-hit minicombos, and god bless 'em for it.

 

[Morin0]

IMO, Smash 64 is too centralized in combos. Melee seems to be a better change of pace where combos aren't exactly the central point but they're still there. I think if Melee had a bit more hitstun (not sure if hitstun is the main reason Melee doesn't combo like 64), Melee would be the ideal Smash. You can do elaborate combos, but you're also not ****ed by stuff like Kirby's up-tilt and can do reads and all that stuff..

 

[Battlecow]

Eh

I like big involved combos

 

[ballin4life]

Melee does have combos, and not just limited to strings, tech-chasing, or chain grabs.

remember that my point of comparison is smash64. compare a smash64 combo video to a melee combo video and i think you'll see what i mean.

The hitstun is great enough to actually combo. Because the pace of the game is much faster, it may seem to you that there isn't enough time between hits to land another move, which isn't true. Smash 64 is easier to land combos because of the slower pace.

i have no idea what you're saying here. first you're saying that the faster game pace means it only SEEMS like there aren't combos and then you say that smash64 has more combos because of the slower pace.

But which is it - faster pace only SEEMS like it reduces combos or faster pace does reduce combos? Neither one of these makes sense to me regardless as I don't see what game pace has to do with ability to combo.

I'd actually say it's the other way around - more combos contribute to a faster game pace since people die quicker but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If by faster pace you mean that the characters move faster then faster pace would result in more combos so that can't be what you mean either.

 

[Claire Diviner]

i have no idea what you're saying here. first you're saying that the faster game pace means it only SEEMS like there aren't combos and then you say that smash64 has more combos because of the slower pace.

But which is it - faster pace only SEEMS like it reduces combos or faster pace does reduce combos? Neither one of these makes sense to me regardless as I don't see what game pace has to do with ability to combo.

I'd actually say it's the other way around - more combos contribute to a faster game pace since people die quicker but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If by faster pace you mean that the characters move faster then faster pace would result in more combos so that can't be what you mean either.

What I mean is that Melee has a combo system as good (maybe almost as good) as 64. The faster pace just means you need to be really quick to combo high, which is almost never seen because it's actually harder to combo. Just because it's harder doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have a good combo game.

 

[Sempiternity]

Comboing in Melee is really hard and DI only makes it harder.

Do you think 64 would be the same if there was DI?

If this were the case, I actually think Melee might have a slight edge over 64 in combos since the characters are faster and can react to unforeseen changes in character movement better.

 

[Spyro]

There is DI in smash 64 but it's just smash DI and that not all that helpful for getting out of combos.

 

[ballin4life]

thanks for the info there

and smash DI is very effective at getting out of drill combos. it can be helpful in some other cases too depending on how good you are at it

 

[kys]

What I mean is that Melee has a combo system as good (maybe almost as good) as 64.

This is an absurd statement. Ignorance revealed.

 

[Sempiternity]

There is DI in smash 64 but it's just smash DI and that not all that helpful for getting out of combos.

sigh

i guess i expected this

 

[Spyro]

and smash DI is very effective at getting out of drill combos. it can be helpful in some other cases too depending on how good you are at it

I knew you could get out of drill combos with it but the only time I've ever seen it used for anything else was here, and you have to have insane smash DI to pull something like that off. What other situation might you be able to use it? Fox's uair perhaps?

 

[Claire Diviner]

This is an absurd statement. Ignorance revealed.

A counter statement with nothing to back it up? What scandal.

 

[ballin4life]

I knew you could get out of drill combos with it but the only time I've ever seen it used for anything else was here, and you have to have insane smash DI to pull something like that off. What other situation might you be able to use it? Fox's uair perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhXxBoWtb_k

basic DI guide by Sangoku

i'm horrible at DI but i use it to escape samus upB and falcon fair all the time

 

[asianaussie]

Can we please start using PI?

omg im on a phone

 

[clubbadubba]

@spyro, DI has a lot of uses. Even single hitbox attacks can be effectively DI'd to make the followup hit harder or even impossible. I remember Boom saying at Apex that he DI'd so hard away from a falcon that the uair chain was broken. To say its only useful vs drill attacks is not true.

@Sol Diviner, melee's combo game is "worse" than 64, in that zero to death or almost zero to death combo's aren't as common in melee. In a lot of 64 matchups if falcon gets a grab at 0% the other character is pretty much dead. That's the kind of thing you don't see nearly as much of in melee in my admittedly low level of experience watching melee gameplay. I'm not saying that more comboing makes the game better (though that is my personal preference), just that to say melee has as much comboing as 64 doesn't seem true.

 

[Spyro]

Thanks for the video ballin. Could someone explain to me what PI is, I know it stands for positioning influence but I don't know what it does or how to use it.

As for comboing, there are a lot less zero to death combos in Melee but they do still come up more often in some matchups (example: Falco dittos) than in others. IMO it is harder to combo in melee but that's because of the speed of the games, not DI.

 

[asianaussie]

PI = smash DI