Is Project M too easy relatively?

[Y-L]

That's not how it works.

The way it works is that it requires precise timing and fast hands. That's why people play a game competitively. Because it requires skill and whoever has better skill comes out on top. It's really not a hard technique anyways, it just adds more depth to the game. Plus if it was removed from PM it would just discredit the game due to the fact that it cannot be removed from Melee. If you don't have the skill to do it then you get punished. That's how the game works.

 

[9bit]

To the original questions for the thread:

I'm very happy with some stuff being easier in PM than Melee. None of them grant you an automatic win and it just makes it easier for new players to get in to the game and start having competitive fun faster. I see nothing wrong with it.

Now, I did sorta quickly skim over the L-cancelling drama, but I wanted to put this out there in case it hasn't been mentioned yet. L-cancelling at least has one very interesting aspect (to me), in that if you're trying to L-cancel an attack and you get hit, you can't tech because you already just hit a shoulder button. So there's some cool stuff about it there. Unless that doesn't apply if you soft-press the shoulder button?? Not sure. But really we already had a huge thread about L-cancelling and both sides made really good arguments.

At the end of the day it was in Melee (and 64) and it will probably remain in PM because of that history. But I don't really care. It could go #eitherway and I'd be fine

 

[Jacob29]

Thanks 9bit.

I wasn't really planning on this to be about L-cancelling.. in fact I don't even know how it got onto L-Cancelling really...

I'm pretty much of the same idea though, as long as making the game doesn't take options away

e.g. does making Short Hops 1 frame easier take options away from the game? No? Then go for it!

 

[Fortress]

That's not how it works.

Agreed. Dokupon Journey is easy, but that game is hardcore.

That's actually a lie. Dokupon takes no prisoners.

 

[Bleck]

The way it works is that it requires precise timing and fast hands. That's why people play a game competitively.

No, it's not - there are plenty of games that people play competitively that aren't based entirely around physical execution (most competitive games that aren't "sports" fit into this category; chess, poker, mahjong, hanafuda, go, any TCG, etc.) There's no rational basis to the idea that 'skill' is synonomous with 'muscle memory'.

Because it requires skill and whoever has better skill comes out on top.

This isn't true, since a) skill can't really be measured numerically and b) balance issues and metagame prevent this from even being close to reality. Even if one were to hypothetically find two Melee players of the exact same skill, the player who picks Fox is going to beat the player who picks Kirby every single time.

It's really not a hard technique anyways, it just adds more depth to the game.

Whether or not you think it's difficult is irrelevant (actually it's super relevant but in a different way than you might think).

Difficulty isn't the same thing as depth. The idea that jamming an extra required input between actions leads to better gameplay is fallacious; it's possible for a game to have depth and/or be difficult with control schemes and action lists that range all the way down to very simple.

Plus if it was removed from PM it would just discredit the game due to the fact that it cannot be removed from Melee.

I, at the very least, am not arguing for the removal of L-canceling - I think that removing L-canceling and replacing it with "automatic" L-canceling wouldn't reasonably affect the quality of competitiveness of the game from a design perspective, but it would certainly lead to a lot of butthurt sperglords. The only way to make the game work without L-canceling is to completely redo characters that rely on it heavily (i.e the big slow characters) from the ground up so that the lack of SHFFLs doesn't reasonably affect their overall capacity to be good.

If you don't have the skill to do it then you get punished. That's how the game works.

Whether or not something is a certain way is irrelevant to a discussion about how that thing should be.

 

[lordvaati]

Wait...since when is having a competitive game that is easily acessable compared to prior installments but has arguably more depth and stategy a bad thing again?

 

[MagnesD3]

No is the answer, Derp.

 

[Bleck]

Wait...since when is having a competitive game that is easily acessable compared to prior installments but has arguably more depth and stategy a bad thing again?

The large majority of people who play video games are people who are entirely against recognizing when change is preferable to the status quo. I believe that competitive video games have significant untapped potential as a medium of sports and entertainment, and I think it's pretty unlikely that they'll ever be as widely accepted as other games of skill until people stop designing competitive video games with the irrational mindset that the only people who should be allowed to be good at video games are obsessive nerds who are obviously more concerned with defending the only thing from which they can possibly deride any sense of self-worth than they are with maybe letting other people have fun too whoops did I just say that out loud.

 

[Crezyte]

Hi I'm Amphrites and I don't feel like pointlessly deliniating the topic of this thread because it is loosely related to something I disagree with. Instead I will simply answer answer the original question: no I do not not feel that certain tech's being somewhat more accessible in any way detracts from Project Melee. PM has more options and advanced techniques than Melee, while also maintaining the useful properties and functions of nearly every tech found in its' predecessors. On top of all this having more consistsnt and accessable short hops and wave dashes doesn't actually hurt high level play or make the game noticably more accessible in the first place, as any semblence of competitive play REQUIRED a basic mastery of these tech's in melee. Making something fairly easy and required as a baseline skill slightly easier literally does absolutely nothing to the metagame aside from potentially making mid-level players more consistent. My $.02

I want to add to your two cents. I think the BASIC ATs being easier to do (wave dashing, l-cancel, short hop) is a pretty darn nice way to get newer players started on practicing tech (because that's a thing in this game regardless of whether someone thinks its a design flaw or not).

These techs help you realize different nuances about the game and develop your playstyle, while having hard techs (usually but certainly not limited to character specific ones) separates seasoned players from newbs. I like PM where is is now regarding its tech difficulty. I just wish the community was more patient in letting the meta-game develop.

 

[Kally Wally]

To the original questions for the thread:

I'm very happy with some stuff being easier in PM than Melee. None of them grant you an automatic win and it just makes it easier for new players to get in to the game and start having competitive fun faster. I see nothing wrong with it.

Now, I did sorta quickly skim over the L-cancelling drama, but I wanted to put this out there in case it hasn't been mentioned yet. L-cancelling at least has one very interesting aspect (to me), in that if you're trying to L-cancel an attack and you get hit, you can't tech because you already just hit a shoulder button. So there's some cool stuff about it there. Unless that doesn't apply if you soft-press the shoulder button?? Not sure. But really we already had a huge thread about L-cancelling and both sides made really good arguments.

At the end of the day it was in Melee (and 64) and it will probably remain in PM because of that history. But I don't really care. It could go #eitherway and I'd be fine

You can L-cancel with a light press, and that's actually the main argument I have against it - the CCPro doesn't have analog triggers, and grab counts as a hard press shield (unlike in Melee where it was a light press) so you can't distinguish between tech and L-cancel on a CCPro. An extra trigger isn't acceptable compensation for that, IMO.

 

[Y-L]

You can L-cancel with a light press, and that's actually the main argument I have against it - the CCPro doesn't have analog triggers, and grab counts as a hard press shield (unlike in Melee where it was a light press) so you can't distinguish between tech and L-cancel on a CCPro. An extra trigger isn't acceptable compensation for that, IMO.

I l cancel with hard presses anyways. Probably a bad habit but it's more satisfying to me.

 

[Strong Badam]

The way it works is that it requires precise timing and fast hands. That's why people play a game competitively. Because it requires skill and whoever has better skill comes out on top. It's really not a hard technique anyways, it just adds more depth to the game. Plus if it was removed from PM it would just discredit the game due to the fact that it cannot be removed from Melee. If you don't have the skill to do it then you get punished. That's how the game works.

So we should revert the tech-window to Brawl because it makes the game harder? And therefore better because it's a competitive game and should be hard?

 

[Saito]

I'm kind of afraid of how fast people could be if L-Cancelling was automatic.

I mean sure at high level play people don't miss L-cancels, but isn't that because they know how fast they can go?

With auto L cancel they could literally go as fast as they want and it might actually raise the skill cap and lower the skill floor because of how much better people could perform now that they don't have to worry about their L cancels.

 

[Yurya]

L-canceling shouldn't be removed simply because of the precedent in previous smash games (64, Melee). Personally I still want to play the previous titles now and then and it wouldn't be optimal if I completely forget a key aspect to playing those.
That said it isn't a good design because it is purely a hindrance.

Back on topic, ATs should only add more options and they should be as simple as possible to do. When a game is based on a secondary objective like pushing buttons rather than strategically playing opponents it is not a well designed game. The competition should be between two people as much as possible, the simpler the controls the better that is achieved.

So no Project M is not too easy, it is heading in the right direction regarding ATs.

 

[Y-L]

So we should revert the tech-window to Brawl because it makes the game harder? And therefore better because it's a competitive game and should be hard?

Like I said earlier I don't think we should make the game harder but we shouldn't make it easier.

 

[Lethalx]

If you don't want L Canceling play brawl lol

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Pardon me, but something I've thought about in regards to the whole argument on L-Cancels:

L-Cancelling does have a steep cost associated with it. Tech'ing. If you mash the L-Button for the duration of your aerial, or even just time it properly, you risk getting hit out of it and slamming onto the ground. Sometimes you tech instead of L-Cancelling because you got bopped, but because you weren't expecting to you techroll in a direction you didn't mean to, or you miss the tech window and suddenly, you're a very vulnerable target bounced on the ground. This is a problem that's very stark to me as an Ike player, as Ike both needs L-Cancelling and due to his slower aerials, is likelier to be swatted out of them if I space poorly. (If I had a nickel for every time I was punched in the chest during a forward air ... I'd still work on my spacing, nickels are meh).

The Shield button is extremely overloaded in Smash and thus carries a lot of risk and precision with it. You need to be precise and careful with your inputs, and yes, even hopping around L-Cancelling has a drawback to it. It's not one that it's immediately apparent, and requires your opponent to capitalize, but you can be forced into a bad position in exchange for the increased offensive prowess you get via L-Cancels.

That's my take on it, anyway.

 

[Strong Badam]

you don't have to mess with your tech window if you light press to l-cancel.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

you don't have to mess with your tech window if you light press to l-cancel.

*looks at Classic Controller*

Goddamn it.

 

[Strong Badam]

mistakes have been made

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I agree with Strong Bad now

 

[Kati]

@op Any truly competitive player will tell you that competition doesn't solely rely on tech skill. If tech skill really is more lenient, then there is simply a larger chance of attracting more players who can contribute to our scene with other qualities required for top level matches..

 

[Spralwers]

I'm fine with it. Less stressful on the hands, and equates to longer, better life on the controller. It's not like the ATs are so easy to the point where some new person can just practice the ATs in practice mode for a week and apply it like the high level tournament players who've been at it for years. Plus there are lots of cool new brawl techs (pivot grab, c stick dashing, dacus, wave bouncing, etc) that are difficult to apply in their own right.

 

[KingChaos]

There is really no need to argue about this. It is a simple as either you like what the developers did with the AT's such as L canceling or you don't. If you do then great enjoy the game. If you don't then play something else. This game was made to emulate the best things from melee and brawl. Both of which has there own set of techs so they are not going anywhere. This is the game we play and if you don't like it play a different smash game or play a different game altogether. If your argument is playing traditional fighters are better for this or that then go play a traditional fighter. No one is making you play this game or making you play it at a high level. If you can't learn AT's or at least understand there implications then you will never be a great player in these games. Either learn them and do well ,or don't and get bodied, or don't play at all.

 

[Jacob29]

WHAT HAVE I CREATED.

 

[Bleck]

There is really no need to argue about this.

Piss off.

 

[KingChaos]

Why you mad though? lol

 

[Bleck]

People are allowed to have opinions and to discuss those opinions with each other - trying to stop a discussion by implying that what anyone involved thinks should be is irrelevant because it may or may not be different from reality is pretty douchebag-ish.

The only reasonable response to somebody barging into a thread just to say 'why are you guys even talking to each other about this thing' is, and I quote, "Piss off."

 

[Paradoxium]

I like L canceling for beginners, because they have to do a ton of practice to get it down and it makes the game seem harder to them. And they think that they're good at the game when they learn how to do it :D.But once you got it down it becomes kind of worthless, except for the fact that when you miss it you get punished.

 

[KingChaos]

Aren't I entitled to my own opinion? Why are you trying to defend your right to voice an opinion yet trying to shut mine down at the same time... Your a hypocritical douchebag for that. What I said is fact and L cancel will not go anywhere. Complaining about it is just a waste of time and you all should know it. To think otherwise is naive and desperate.

 

[Bleck]

Aren't I entitled to my own opinion?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, yes - what that means is that you're allowed to have one, not that people aren't allowed to point out that it's stupid. Try learning what words mean before you use them.

 

[Droß]

The only reason why L-Cancels are considered bad game design is because there's aren't DEGREES of L-cancelling. Currently, it's a binary: you either cut your landing lag in half or you don't. It's a one dimensional mechanic as a result.

Instead of this binary, L-Cancelling should reward the player for precision timing, similar to how Powershielding does. So, for example, when Mario comes down from a SHFF Fair, the player attempts to L-Cancel. Here's a sample timing window table that could be used:

(# of Frames Early/Late) (X% Aerial Lag Reduction)

5 Frames Early: 8%
4 Frames Early: 14%
3 Frames Early: 22%
2 Frames Early: 30%
1 Frame Early: 45%
Perfect L-Cancel: 50%
1 Frame Late: 38%
2 Frames Late: 28%
3 Frames Late: 19%
4 Frames Late: 11%
5 Frames Late: 5%


This not only introduces the concept of "better L-Cancels", thereby rewarding players for their practice and mechanical superiority, it also opens up opportunities for metagaming and timing differentials by deliberately using better or worse L-Cancels than your opponent to stagger your attack's initiation. Furthermore, it provides greater purpose to the mechanic; it is no longer just "that button you have to press or you're slow", but now a more potent mindgaming tool.

 

[KingChaos]

You told me to "piss off" That is not saying hey I don't like what you have to say but I respect your right to say it. You were saying leave here what you have to say isn't welcomed and that isn't pointing out a stupid opinion it is just being a jerk. But I'm done with it I can careless of what else you have to say I get on here to try to be helpful not argue with ignorant jerks. I was trying to move the topic along because all the back and forth is getting the discussion no where. Now what Drob's Idea is actually pretty good. I am glad someone finally moved on to a more productive means in this thread.

 

[br8k]

Rather than seeing l-canceling as "something that is always the right option and is therefore meaningless," why not see it as "bracing yourself for slamming into the ground after having made the bizarre choice of attacking so low that you're bound to hit the ground while you're trying to hit someone." You're teching. You're hitting the ground in a negative state and you have to counteract the results.

Also I just like it because it makes me think about my spacing more (whether I'll hit the enemy or not influences my l-cancel timing) and makes me feel more in control of my character. It feels rewarding. And it forces players to use patterns a little more, as far as SHFFL timing, so that they hit the ground when they're expecting to, so that they don't miss the l-cancel.

Aaaand as a skill barrier, it's similar to learning basic technique in a sport. It's hardly strenuous. I mean seriously, you can l-cancel with light presses.

 

[Celestis]

Not having L cancel just sounds nasty. I L cancel everything even my B moves though it does nothing x) Even if I play brawl, I am still L canceling. The idea of it not being there sounds so wrong. Its a reward for taking the time to learn something.

Its just like in Gears of War. The active reloads. Its a reward of a faster load for taking the time to hit it. Sure, all guns could easilly reload jsut as fast. But then it feels unfulfilling.

You say it would not change the competitive scene cause it is rarely missed, but I have seen so many times when those rare misses have lead to a big punishment. I get punished all the time when I miss.

If you don't like to l cancel then just go back to playing Brawl where you don't even have the option to do it.

 

[Wing T]

FWIW I just started learning the basic ATs in melee and I personally I think that L-cancelling (while relatively easily) certainly adds to the skill-barrier and that's something that I enjoy and find gratifying to master.

Celestis' comment on Gears of War (active reloads) is spot-on. It's confusing to me that someone would argue that its so easy it doesn't affect the high-level players, and yet still promote ease of use for all ATs. By their own logic if it were actually more difficult, then it would be a justified mechanic which is utterly confusing. Pro's don't miss the easier ATs and noobs like me do? Shocker. How does that in any way justify making the game easier? If anything the playing field is level when I play people of a similar skill-set, and when I am playing someone better I am going to lose anyway.

Which tells me that it just comes down to either purely personal preference (which I'm totally OK with) or resentment of the overall skill-barrier in becoming a proficient smash 64/melee/PM player. In either case, I don't think you can argue that it is poor design using any objective basis. It makes perfect sense that characters would need to essentially brace themselves for their fall to increase the speed at which they attack.

If you want a game with all-strategy/mind-games then why not just stick to rock-paper-scissors, chess, etc. No matter what game you are playing, if its in real-time and involves physics, speed and timing are the most crucial elements involved with user-input. Put-simply, L-cancelling involves both especially when you are concentrating on every other aspect of the game (there's a reason even old-school pros like wife says in the doc that he forced himself to "L-cancel 50 times in a row without missing"). It's a requirement for speed and movement which IMO adds depth.

 

[Y-L]

L canceling is actually better in PM anyways because of the glow that let's you know that you did it successfully which I really like.

 

[210stuna]

The only reason why L-Cancels are considered bad game design is because there's aren't DEGREES of L-cancelling. Currently, it's a binary: you either cut your landing lag in half or you don't. It's a one dimensional mechanic as a result.

Instead of this binary, L-Cancelling should reward the player for precision timing, similar to how Powershielding does. So, for example, when Mario comes down from a SHFF Fair, the player attempts to L-Cancel. Here's a sample timing window table that could be used:

(# of Frames Early/Late) (X% Aerial Lag Reduction)

5 Frames Early: 8%
4 Frames Early: 14%
3 Frames Early: 22%
2 Frames Early: 30%
1 Frame Early: 45%
Perfect L-Cancel: 50%
1 Frame Late: 38%
2 Frames Late: 28%
3 Frames Late: 19%
4 Frames Late: 11%
5 Frames Late: 5%


This not only introduces the concept of "better L-Cancels", thereby rewarding players for their practice and mechanical superiority, it also opens up opportunities for metagaming and timing differentials by deliberately using better or worse L-Cancels than your opponent to stagger your attack's initiation. Furthermore, it provides greater purpose to the mechanic; it is no longer just "that button you have to press or you're slow", but now a more potent mindgaming tool.

I am okay with this.

 

[Y-L]

I am okay with this.

I don't really agree with it. For something where you could be punished for messing up, (it being an integral part of gameplay is what I'm saying) I don't think it should be something which needs to be frame perfect.

 

[mimgrim]

I always thought L-cancel should fit into a risk VS reward scenario myself.

L-cancel, as it is, makes whiffing aerials too safe. I think L-cancel should be made too where you can only use it if your move makes contact but becomes disabled if your move doesn't make contact. This really makes it fall under the Risk VS Reward category. If you make contact you get rewarded for being to preform a L-cacel. If you don't, you get punished for not making contact. And given how much of an air fighter Smash is, it really helps to even it out some.