Is Palutena really that bad?

[Darkjolly]

I kinda like her. Her custom moves make her incredibly fun to use but her defaults are decent I guess. Is she really that bad or is it that no one gives her a chance? Im not expecting her to be S tier or even B tier, but maybe C ?

 

[mimgrim]

Seems like half of the users here only care about custom Palutena.

Because customs make her crazy good, easily a top 10 character with customs.

That said, I still think she is in the upper portion of the cast with default. She still has good mobility, amazing set of aerials, good set or grounded normals, one of the best grab rewards in the game along with having a pretty good grab that is possible to confirm into from Jab or AC Fair. Wrap is a really good Special, and is the one I always use when playing custom Palutena anyways, as it is a great and safe recovery and is also a good get out of jail move. Reflect has decent use even against characters without projectiles due to it slowing/halting momentum, is also a funny edge guard. Auto Reticle isn;t great but it has it's use a decent tool to force approaches or to combat zoners. Counter is Counter and has it's niche uses as well.

 

[im just peachy]

i don't use custom moves, and i still have a blast and i still try my best to kick butt.
she doesn't NEED custom moves to do well, so if someone tells you that they're lying.
that aside, her recovery times after like down smash, side tilt are disgusting and some characters don't have to deal with that
so she can't be the best already due to that, for me she's great and i love her and she's fun and everything smash is about:
you have to work to be good with someone, you have to love the character you're using, etc.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

No, she's really not bad at all.

There's only a few questionable characters in this game, no one that's truly bad except maybe for a few matchups. Even so, everyone has enough unique strengths that a good player can make them work, even if the majority of people don't find success with them.

She's about average, potentially high tier. With customs, she's an easy top 10.

With the exception of Diddy, who right now just lacks apparent weaknesses and therefore has a flawed design (like Rosalina used to have, not enough weaknesses and any weaknesses she did have weren't interesting or significant), the rest of the cast is extremely well balanced. If you were to compare it to Melee or Brawl's balance, Smash 4 would fit entirely between upper and lower middle tier. There's absolutely no reason to blame balance anymore.

 

[BTFO_lewd_goddess]

She is, but luckily her customs include Super Speed and Lightweight, which are enough to make her jump up a tier or two. I'm sure we will see a lot of sick Super Speed kills at Apex next year.

 

[ddonaldo]

I don't think customs are a necessity tbh and at the moment I honestly think she is a solid fighter.
Customs would however without a doubt will help her as a character but to be honest more than half the characters have better customs than default so Palutena might actually end up not climbing as high as some might think

 

[Greda]

Palutena in my opinion is easily one of the most underrated characters without customs. There are plenty of techniques you can use to have the advantage at your side, and most people don't even mind things like how:

Diddy ain't the only one with a powerful Dthrow -> Uair, which for Palutena is a viable move for KO's and damage. Dthrow can also be followed up with Usmash, Fair, Nair, and Uair all easily and can rack up a lot of damage and KO's.

Ftilt isn't entirely useless, it can stop projectiles and opponents who are rushing at you.

Bair and her Dash Attack block projectiles and attacks, allowing for clear hits if used correctly.

Small things like this can easily turn the tide, and more need to be discovered in order to make her a good character.

Another thing I believe, and that most people don't agree on, is that her default set is actually the best possible outcome of specials she could have.

Warp gives a decent vertical and horizontal recovery, compared to Jump Glide which is limited in vertical recovery and can easily kill you, and Rocket Jump which has no horizontal recovery.

Reflect, well, reflects. She doesn't necessarily have to use it against projectiles, because it easily pushes people off stage for easy kills like Little Mac and Ike as explained in another thread. It also can hurt people in certain conditions. Super Speed is really good and explored as well, and Angelic Missle is decent to be honest.

Auto Reticle is easiest to aim and force an approach with compared to Explosive Flame and Heavenly Light, which are harder to utilize and aim.

Counter is a counter, however, Counter vs Lightweight is a good argument for her default. The perks of her counter are is that it hits far and is really powerful.

Would really like to write a guide alas I am bad with words and I also have very limited knowledge about her customs, so I'm going to let the character, other AT's, and the metagame develop before jumping into anything.


tl;dr
Palutena is more than viable without customs, and though a lot of good things have been discovered about her, the rate of development and popularity of this character is going low and slow which lets other characters like Diddy to be more explored and be used competitively. Reading tier lists atm is more like reading a list for development/learning curves. There are no "best characters," choose a character and roll with it.

 

[Duelisti]

Diddy ain't the only one with a powerful Dthrow -> Uair, which for Palutena is a viable move for KO's and damage. Dthrow can also be followed up with Usmash, Fair, Nair, and Uair all easily and can rack up a lot of damage and KO's.

It's a shame we can't depend on Uair to KO since a good opponent will most likely DI out of it, but at least fair should still hit.

Ftilt isn't entirely useless, it can stop projectiles and opponents who are rushing at you.

Sure, but it's never the optimal choice in those situations. Reflect is infinitely better for dealing with projectiles and I prefer less laggy moves for walling approaching enemies, mainly Jab, SH Fair or even D-tilt. I've found some use for F-tilt as an edgeguard tool. Long uptime and big hitboxes make it decent for such a purpose. Pivot F-tilt is kinda okay, I guess.

Reflect, well, reflects. She doesn't necessarily have to use it against projectiles, because it easily pushes people off stage for easy kills like Little Mac and Ike as explained in another thread. It also can hurt people in certain conditions. Super Speed is really good and explored as well, and Angelic Missle is decent to be honest.

The sheer amount of people in For Glory with zoning playstyles (if you can call it that) makes me glad Reflect is on Palutena's default moveset. She can definitely do some interesting things with it in close quarters, but it's unreliable and too easy to get through in most scenarios. The hitbox (5%) could prove to be useful if the opponent's in your face all the time and follow up with a safe fair. I should actually try this more. Then again, grab or jab is probably better. I agree that Super Speed is pretty amazing too.

I'm actually working on a little in-depth Palutena guide of my own. Dunno if I'll ever release it, but it's got a lot of words by now. :3

 

[mimgrim]

The nifty thing about Ftilt, and her other tilts, is that they are of the rebounding nature, when they clank with an opponent's move they won't be canceled out but the opponents will this means if she challenges an attack that is clank-able with her tilts she will always win it out and still have a hitbox out. This is the reason her tilts are the way they are.

 

[Greda]

It's a shame we can't depend on Uair to KO since a good opponent will most likely DI out of it, but at least fair should still hit.

I don't fully agree on this, Uair is easy to follow up with Dthrow, even if the person DI's out of it or not, you can govern it by short hopping, full hopping, and even dashing before using the Uair. After the Uair if the person happened to DI, it's still a pretty good guarantee for a KO move, and you can pressure them enough for it to work. Personally, DI out of Uair has never been a problem for me.

Though, there are a lot of other options you could choose to counter things like this.

Sure, but it's never the optimal choice in those situations. Reflect is infinitely better for dealing with projectiles and I prefer less laggy moves for walling approaching enemies, mainly Jab, SH Fair or even D-tilt. I've found some use for F-tilt as an edgeguard tool. Long uptime and big hitboxes make it decent for such a purpose. Pivot F-tilt is kinda okay, I guess.

Reflect is the good way to deal with projectiles, however, Ftilt can be used for some prioritized attacks, and it is a decent way to deal damage. When your opponent runs into you, and you mess up on Reflect, you could get easily punished, however with Ftilt they will most likely get hit. You're totally right to use Jab or Dtilt to deal with approaching enemies, though.

I'm actually working on a little in-depth Palutena guide of my own. Dunno if I'll ever release it, but it's got a lot of words by now. :3

I fully support this, I hope to see great Palutena players in the future.

The thing that I like about Palutena is that everyone I see playing as her have totally different playstyles, some may be defensive, some may be all aggro all out, some may use complete other attacks, and it works if they know how to use her, it just... does.

 

[xnine]

The thing that I like about Palutena is that everyone I see playing as her have totally different playstyles, some may be defensive, some may be all aggro all out, some may use complete other attacks, and it works if they know how to use her, it just... does.

Can confirm.I play with a small group of friends and we are all okay-ish. I rush them down and reflect in their faces, and nair for days. It doesn't seem quite correct, but it's working, and it's also very fun.

 

[Rainiris]

Because palutena has an higher mindread skill floor requeriment. Her default moveset is more punish and less combo, so knowing the blindspots of your opponent's strategy is a must. In order to achieve this you need to act erraticallyso they expose their moves and you don't.

I'm one of the few people here that prefer her default moveset above customs. Having reflect and counter avalaible were her sell points for me.

 

[FlipFlopMist]

Because palutena has an higher mindread skill floor requeriment. Her default moveset is more punish and less combo, so knowing the blindspots of your opponent's strategy is a must. In order to achieve this you need to act erraticallyso they expose their moves and you don't.

I'm one of the few people here that prefer her default moveset above customs. Having reflect and counter avalaible were her sell points for me.

Here's another person that loves her default, the only lacking point in her default is AR, and even then it's only because of not locking onto rolling foes and how punishable it is when you try and use it like some other projectiles.

Her Reflect is amazing. <3

 

[Greda]

Here's another person that loves her default, the only lacking point in her default is AR, and even then it's only because of not locking onto rolling foes and how punishable it is when you try and use it like some other projectiles.

Her Reflect is amazing. <3

Make that three here, I agree on her entire moveset.

AR with rolling foes is disappointing though...

 

[SethTheMage]

I'm also one who prefers the default set, because I love being able to get into my opponent's head and punish them. I've had a fair amount of success on FG, and I've gotten used to her defaults. However, that doesn't mean that I won't also use her customs if I get practice with them.

Palutena's a very tricky character, and because she has such a high skill ceiling, winning matches with her feels much more rewarding than with other characters. That's why she's my main instead of Rosalina, the character who I thought for the longest time was going to be my main. I just wish that people would give her more of a chance instead of dismissing her as "low-tier" and "garbage". I feel that she's one of the most underrated characters in the game.

 

[Greda]

I'm also one who prefers the default set, because I love being able to get into my opponent's head and punish them. I've had a fair amount of success on FG, and I've gotten used to her defaults. However, that doesn't mean that I won't also use her customs if I get practice with them.

Palutena's a very tricky character, and because she has such a high skill ceiling, winning matches with her feels much more rewarding than with other characters. That's why she's my main instead of Rosalina, the character who I thought for the longest time was going to be my main. I just wish that people would give her more of a chance instead of dismissing her as "low-tier" and "garbage". I feel that she's one of the most underrated characters in the game.

Low tier in Smash 4 is the equivalent to "hard learning curve, lack off mass popularity like Rosalina"

 

[Zediwonder]

Playing Palutena in For Glory I've become a lot more fond of her default set, it'll never take over her customs for me but sometimes in custom matches I just wish I had that reflect or counter at certain moments. Her default set isn't bad and it's 100% usable competitively and yeah, it's not that she's bad, she just has a really steep learning curve.

 

[Kirisamee]

I've become pretty fond of Palutena's default moveset, especially Reflect. I think I only woke up to how effective that move is when someone successfully gimped me with it. People need to give Palutena more credit. Though, her moveset would be better if she had something like Explosive Flame over Autoreticle, but other than that, I like her.

Plus, up smash.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I kinda like her. Her custom moves make her incredibly fun to use but her defaults are decent I guess. Is she really that bad or is it that no one gives her a chance? Im not expecting her to be S tier or even B tier, but maybe C ?

She's underrated because people don't understand her. If you watch Ace's "undefeatable" series, you'll see him winning easily with Wii Fit trainer but losing with Palutena. On paper, Palutena is strictly better in every regard than Wii Fit. Better ranged and disjointed smash attacks, better grab game, better dash speed, less gimpable recovery, longer range, better jab 1, aerials with more range and priority, dash attack with more priority, etc., etc. Wii Fit has nothing that is good compared with Palutena except for Sun Salutation (godlike special move). But Palutena has a counter and a reflect which are useful tools in their own right and offset the amazingness of Sun Salutation a bit.

The playstyle of Palutena is simple focused around dashing, shielding, grabbing, and occasionally spacing her amazing aerials. It's a very reactive style, which is hard for some people to adopt because it's harder than auto-pilot chucking Lloyd Rockets into miscellaneous mixup with Villager or spin dashing mindlessly with Sonic.

 

[FlipFlopMist]

The playstyle of Palutena is simple focused around dashing, shielding, grabbing, and occasionally spacing her amazing aerials. It's a very reactive style, which is hard for some people to adopt because it's harder than auto-pilot chucking Lloyd Rockets into miscellaneous mixup with Villager or spin dashing mindlessly with Sonic.

Or being Diddy, I've seen/played matches were after one loss the player switches automatically to Diddy.
Bl

 

[SethTheMage]

Or being Diddy, I've seen/played matches were after one loss the player switches automatically to Diddy.
Bl

I've encountered this a bunch as well. Most of them don't know how to use him, and wind up mindlessly Side-Bing into my Dash Attack or Bair, and being super predictable with the banana. Diddy's been hyped as the "easy win" character, but he's only good if the player is good. While I haven't been unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a good Brawl Meta Knight, I think I can say that Smash 4 Diddy is not at that level. He may be good, but to me, he's not the "pick and win" character that everyone hypes him up to be (or at least at the level I'm playing at, which is mostly FG).

 

[Hydde]

she is not terribad, you can say she is even balanced.

its just that there are a ggod 15 or so characters with really good moves that she cant beat or compete against

 

[FailX]

Palutena is definitely a character you have to put a lot a time into to get reasonable results. If you manage to get some reads she is she is a pain to play against. Otherwise you will have a hard time killing your opponent. Dthrow to up-air does not work at higher percentages.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dthrow to up-air does not work at higher percentages.

Haha. Actually, it's more reliable at higher percents (depends on your rage because greater rage = greater distance they fly from the d-throw). Without much rage, you can kill Rosalina with d-throw uair if you grab her at 70 (unstaled uair). Bowser (heaviest character in the game) is so easy to land the combo on, and it does kill him if you grab around 120%.

If you're struggling to land the combo, it's because either 1. You're not jumping fast enough after the d-throw or 2. You're not spacing/positioning the uair properly.

 

[Delzethin]

I've heard access to customs makes her a lot better. Explosive Flame and Super Speed are really freaking good.

 

[ChivalRuse]

People are throwing around "better with customs" as though she isn't a strong character as she stands.

 

[Conn1496]

I'm starting to get pretty good with Defaultena, tbh. Her customs are kinda overrated. She's a very punishing character with a nice variety to her play - even AR is good when you learn it as it punishes some movements, most if not all whiffs and even some moves surprisingly effectively (see Pit/Pittoo's side-Bs). Her smashes also have interesting hitboxes/windboxes that can make for some surprisingly safe retaliations.

She's a character with no set way to play, and that's a very scary concept in mind-games. Try to use that to your advantage and get those punishes in. She's totally worth the effort, and I can see her being very valuable to some players. She's just very well rounded, IMO.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally I'm probably gonna use Palutena more. I get a Ganondorf feel off of her. Doesn't pack as much power but the playstyle is similar with punishing for mistakes and wants to go for strong single strikes but has a few more tools such as a warp, reflector, decent grab range, and a projectile wave, oh and a counter. And I find a trend that down throw sets up stuff for a lot of characters I play. DDD, Palutena, Meta Knight, ZSS, Ganondorf, etc.

I wouldn't say Palutena is bad. Just is more technical and has a learning curve.

 

[Rainiris]

I can't get enough F-throw->AR->Dash attack.

I just can't.

How can people not love that.

Or that AR barrage by using AR while falling.

These small disruptions. Dem. Control.

 

[xnine]

Yay for the AR love. I use it sparingly, but when I do it feels great. Pewpewpew for 3 percent each! Yeah, it can be punishable, but there are always times where it's just a good move to bust out and get your opponent thinking about a little bit more. the more you can make your enemy think, the more you can take advantage of that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

She's a good character at not getting hit. Think about it. Her amazing dash speed. Her counter, reflect, and warp all help her avoid damage.

And I just thought: her dash attack/bair have invincible properties, which contributes to her elusiveness.

 

[Greda]

She's a good character at not getting hit. Think about it. Her amazing dash speed. Her counter, reflect, and warp all help her avoid damage.

And I just thought: her dash attack/bair have invincible properties, which contributes to her elusiveness.

Would like to add that invincibility includes projectiles and Greninja cant land a hit on Palutena when she is countered while using Ftilt (from my experiences).

 

[ChivalRuse]

F-tilt has a lot of problems though. Plenty of recovery time on that move so if your opponent simply shields the move, they can punish you out of shield once the attack disappears.

 

[Rainiris]

Would like to add that invincibility includes projectiles and Greninja cant land a hit on Palutena when she is countered while using Ftilt (from my experiences).

That's because most counters will be interrupted if for some reason the countereer is hit before the counter's hit frames hit, as the whole move does not have superarmor. This has been an issue for me. Her counter is also laggy in the sense that it has a few warm up frames... unlike every other counter.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I could be wrong here but I don't think she's bad per-say. I just think she has to play with a punish mistake mindset, and she's kind of outclassed in that field. She's probably gonna plateau somewhere in mid.

 

[Zediwonder]

She's certainly not a top tier character which I'm ok with, a lot of people complain about top tier characters being OP and I don't want to see the ***** and moan about Palutena being OP thread.

You gotta pick your moves carefully but when you get your pace going with Palutena you really get it going.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What makes Palutena better than a lot of the cast is her reliable follow-ups from grab. Let's make a short list, ranking the characters who can combo from grab:

Diddy, Sheik, Olimar, Luigi, Ness, ROB, Palutena, Mario, Greninja, Pit, Game and Watch, Zelda, Zero Suit, Falcon, Ike, Dedede, Lucario, Samus, Metaknight, Marth/Lucina, Megaman, Falco.

Not even half the cast. But some characters are ranked higher or lower for different reasons. Diddy is the highest because he can use his grab to combo to KO moves; this is rare, actually. A few other characters who can do this are Luigi (d-throw to up-b), Palutena (d-throw to uair/up-smash), Game and Watch (d-throw to 2 hits of uair), and Zero Suit (down-throw to up-b). Lower ranked characters have some combo from grab, but it might be limited by percents or weight of the opponent's character: for example, Ike can d-throw fair on most of the cast (it works until 80% on Diddy if you're frame perfect); it's very easy to combo from grab with him (d-throw to up-b is super easy at under 20% and it's a lot of damage). Getting grabs with Ike is difficult, however, and the combo is very difficult to perform once the opponent gets in the 40-50% range (strict jump timing).

Others are ranked lower because they just have terrible options that they're locked into if they want to combo from throw. Marth and Lucina can d-throw to bair, but that's not that good. Megaman has d-throw to fair at low percents. Falco has d-throw to dash attack at very very low percents. Once the opponent gets much more percent, Falco's grab simply cannot combo.

Palutena's grab is pretty much always good (and like Ness sometimes you can simply KO with b-throw [or uthrow]). Having a good grab game is something that you'll find is a staple for the best characters in the game.

 

[Wintropy]

I used to not be able to play Palutena without customs, but constant training on For Glory has warmed me up to her default specials.

She's a wonderful mixed bag of everything, a true pick-'n'-mix lucky dip of this and that, and you need to know how to play her as a result. She's a fine character with some great mix-ups and mindgames when you get accustomed to her playstyle. Definitely a character with a steep learning curve, but proportionate rewards as a result.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I think the only reason she sucks is because her special moves are all fairly terrible. I don't think her options OoS are very good either.

However, ignore her special moves and play her full rush down with her aerials. She's super quick and she gets no landing lag. Good combos, edgeguarding and can kill fairly early.

 

[SethTheMage]

I'm a big fan of Palutena's off-stage game. While I'm not good at landing Palutena's Dair, I can still rely on her Nair and Bair for stage spiking. It's so satisfying when an opponent grabs the ledge twice, leaving them open to get instantly spiked by her Bair.