Is Palutena really that bad?

[T-skjorte Ninja]

A change in my statement. Don't play her like Mewtwo. :v

Just... maybe half Mewtwo, but don't spam that NAir lal.

 

[TastyCarcass]

It does have some pretty bad landing lag

 

[NidoMay]

Threads like this are a bit baffling. Mostly because almost every time I've seen a palutena player on replay channel she's basically invincible. Just spam dthrow and airs. If anything she's more a "pick this to win!" character than bad.

 

[Wintropy]

Threads like this are a bit baffling. Mostly because almost every time I've seen a palutena player on replay channel she's basically invincible. Just spam dthrow and airs. If anything she's more a "pick this to win!" character than bad.

Gonna have to politely contest that opinion, my friend. I've seen a lot of poor or middling Palutena player, and they are very, very easily predicted and punished.

I know you're being facetious, but spamming anything is a poor idea with any character, Palutena especially. You're possibly referring to the phenomenon of high-level players being so vastly superior to low-level players that she seems invincible to the casual observer. Palutena has an extremely steep learning curve for beginners, and it's not easy to get to grips with her! I would argue so much so that it's honestly difficult to believe at times that a beginner Palutena and a high-level Palutena are really the same character!

 

[Rashid]

Threads like this are a bit baffling. Mostly because almost every time I've seen a palutena player on replay channel she's basically invincible. Just spam dthrow and airs. If anything she's more a "pick this to win!" character than bad.

Go ahead and try that. See how well it works. ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͠°)

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Her grab range isn't as great as I thought, so missed grab, and face punish happens really often to me. Not gonna get a lot of DThrow>UAir anytime soon.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Just practice spacing your grabs better

 

[Wintropy]

Her grab range isn't as great as I thought, so missed grab, and face punish happens really often to me. Not gonna get a lot of DThrow>UAir anytime soon.

Jab -> grab is your friend. Jab them and grab them out of stunlock for instant results~ :3

 

[Maraphy]

Jab -> grab is your friend. Jab them and grab them out of stunlock for instant results~ :3

Except on Megaman sometimes.

Yes, good Megaman players who are aware that they can do this will actually go out of their way to Up-B out of your jab->grab combo. It's pretty annoying <_ < I guess the payoff is they don't eat a d-throw'd aerial but still. Cmon.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You should be winning that matchup though regardless. Reflect shuts him down.

 

[Greda]

Every Palutena main should just combine and produce a mega guide featuring broken unlimited Lightweight and the holy Jab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

With high priority (invincible moves, disjoints, up-smash) and a dangerous grab + high ground movement speed, Palutena has the tools to beat any character on the tier list. It just takes some learning of matchups. I don't understand why people put her so low on the tier list.

 

[Greda]

With high priority (invincible moves, disjoints, up-smash) and a dangerous grab + high ground movement speed, Palutena has the tools to beat any character on the tier list. It just takes some learning of matchups. I don't understand why people put her so low on the tier list.

Right now everything is looking more like a "characters commonly used" tier list.

The game just came out, and naturally, people who are hard to play as get ranked extremely low. It's a common pattern I see.

 

[xnine]

Right now everything is looking more like a "characters commonly used" tier list.

The game just came out, and naturally, people who are hard to play as get ranked extremely low. It's a common pattern I see.

I think this is why Diddy is so high. His learning curve is not steep, and his kill options don't require too much technical skill or ability to read. Eventually the more technical characters will probably begin to upset the meta, it just takes time.

 

[Maraphy]

With high priority (invincible moves, disjoints, up-smash) and a dangerous grab + high ground movement speed, Palutena has the tools to beat any character on the tier list. It just takes some learning of matchups. I don't understand why people put her so low on the tier list.

I really don't think she's as low on the imaginary current tier list either; I mean, we had a Palutena in the top 16 at Apex (which is more than a lot of other characters have the ability to say). Also, this is a month old now but according to Anther's Ladder she ranked 24, which is pretty much dead center. That's where I think she'll end up in the long run.

 

[scalpel]

Palutena is an interesting character but she has way too many flaws in her design to be competitive.

She's one of the only characters in the game that straight up does not have a down-smash. Seriously. You press down-smash on Palutena and it's like bending over to pick up soap in prison. Unbelievable that whoever designed Palutena's down-smash would think it would be a good idea to tack on one of the longest cooldowns in the entire game on a mediocre damage, high-risk-NO-reward attack.

As Palutena, you have to work 200% harder than all other characters to get your kills. You seriously have to break your back to do anything at all with Palutena. "Oops I just used a forward tilt. I am now dead." "Whoops I missed a jab. I am now dead." "Omg I down-smashed. I am dead." It's like wtf..why can't I spam smashes in any which direction like Rosalina and win? Why is Rosalina allowed to do this, and Palutena cannot?

 

[Maraphy]

Palutena is an interesting character but she has way too many flaws in her design to be competitive.

She's one of the only characters in the game that straight up does not have a down-smash. Seriously. You press down-smash on Palutena and it's like bending over to pick up soap in prison. Unbelievable that whoever designed Palutena's down-smash would think it would be a good idea to tack on one of the longest cooldowns in the entire game on a mediocre damage, high-risk-NO-reward attack.

As Palutena, you have to work 200% harder than all other characters to get your kills. You seriously have to break your back to do anything at all with Palutena. "Oops I just used a forward tilt. I am now dead." "Whoops I missed a jab. I am now dead." "Omg I down-smashed. I am dead." It's like wtf..why can't I spam smashes in any which direction like Rosalina and win? Why is Rosalina allowed to do this, and Palutena cannot?

I whole-heartily agree that she is one of, if not maybe the actual hardest and most unforgiving character in the game. That said, I wouldn't agree that difficult = not viable in a competitive setting. In the hands of someone like Aerolink or Ryo, she obviously has the ability to go far. I wouldn't argue that she's high on the tier list, but to say that she's unviable? Well that's just false.

Also yeah wth is with her D-smash. The only thing it can be good for is punishing rolls or using the windbox but even then F-smash is better than it at both of those things

 

[Greda]

Palutena is an interesting character but she has way too many flaws in her design to be competitive.

She's one of the only characters in the game that straight up does not have a down-smash. Seriously. You press down-smash on Palutena and it's like bending over to pick up soap in prison. Unbelievable that whoever designed Palutena's down-smash would think it would be a good idea to tack on one of the longest cooldowns in the entire game on a mediocre damage, high-risk-NO-reward attack.

As Palutena, you have to work 200% harder than all other characters to get your kills. You seriously have to break your back to do anything at all with Palutena. "Oops I just used a forward tilt. I am now dead." "Whoops I missed a jab. I am now dead." "Omg I down-smashed. I am dead." It's like wtf..why can't I spam smashes in any which direction like Rosalina and win? Why is Rosalina allowed to do this, and Palutena cannot?

I was actually thinking about this today, and how both of those moves are completely useless in terms of everything.

I mean, Ftilt has served me in some ways, but, why..? I think I've found a fully charged D-Smash does less damage than any other one of her smash attacks (charged, that is).

In my opinion, Ftilt is more useful than D-Smash, but it surprises me that the people designing this character actually thought these were good to use, or was this done intentionally? I don't even know.

 

[ChivalRuse]

D-smash is actually good for punishing laggy moves on your shield. The problem is that there just aren't that many moves that are laggy in this game.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Well, it's fine for edgeguard against non-sweetspotted recovery, I guess.

Though, one should exspect your opponent to sweet spot often.

 

[Rashid]

Its sourspot(?) sends at an almost horizontal angle, so it can set up for edgeguards better than fsmash. You can also use it for punishing low air dodges.

 

[scalpel]

Its sourspot(?) sends at an almost horizontal angle, so it can set up for edgeguards better than fsmash. You can also use it for punishing low air dodges.

In theory or in practice? Because in theory it sounds great, but in practice I find that down-smash is a "take my virginity now senpai" button.

Maybe if someone can showcase the effective use of down-smashes in a video or something, that would be cool. It's not very encouraging to see that one of the best Palutenas in NA, Aerolink, uses down-smash an average of 0.000 times in tournaments.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just don't use it in neutral at all. It's something that you can use if your opponent makes a mistake.

 

[mega4000]

Because customs make her crazy good, easily a top 10 character with customs.

That said, I still think she is in the upper portion of the cast with default. She still has good mobility, amazing set of aerials, good set or grounded normals, one of the best grab rewards in the game along with having a pretty good grab that is possible to confirm into from Jab or AC Fair. Wrap is a really good Special, and is the one I always use when playing custom Palutena anyways, as it is a great and safe recovery and is also a good get out of jail move. Reflect has decent use even against characters without projectiles due to it slowing/halting momentum, is also a funny edge guard. Auto Reticle isn;t great but it has it's use a decent tool to force approaches or to combat zoners. Counter is Counter and has it's niche uses as well.

why one of the best grab rewards? what can she do after a grab? Also, which custom set do you recommend for palutena?

 

[ChivalRuse]

From a grab -> down-throw:

With DI away:

f-air. Sometimes f-air (fast fall) -> f-air works, or f-air -> jab -> regrab.

With neutral or towards DI (or a permutation of these):

n-air at low percents builds up damage best. You can get underneath them after the n-air and potentially get more follow ups
u-air at high percents. You can KO Rosalina at about 72% before the hit on low ceiling stages, depending on their survival DI

 

[Enrel]

I don't know if I can really say she's bad.. Though I do say she's trash almost constantly. It's just her options while good are very limited and get trumped and outclassed by many other people. She's really fun and makes for a challenge.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't know if I can really say she's bad.. Though I do say she's trash almost constantly. It's just her options while good are very limited and get trumped and outclassed by many other people. She's really fun and makes for a challenge.

Be the better player. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.

I remember my brother playing his friend in Brawl a while ago, and they were playing, I think, Falco and Link or something, and his friend got salty because "Falco beats Link 60-40" and what have you. His response was, "Then be the better forty."

His friend took it to heart, eventually, and they had some good matches. But it's a sound point nevertheless. Matchups do matter and they exist for a reason, but ultimately, it's down to individual skill. Most of a character's weaknesses can be mitigated in the hands of a decent player who knows what they're doing.

Respect your weaknesses and your opponent's strengths. Then use that knowledge to overcome them and triumph.

 

[Enrel]

Be the better player. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.

I remember my brother playing his friend in Brawl a while ago, and they were playing, I think, Falco and Link or something, and his friend got salty because "Falco beats Link 60-40" and what have you. His response was, "Then be the better forty."

His friend took it to heart, eventually, and they had some good matches. But it's a sound point nevertheless. Matchups do matter and they exist for a reason, but ultimately, it's down to individual skill. Most of a character's weaknesses can be mitigated in the hands of a decent player who knows what they're doing.

Respect your weaknesses and your opponent's strengths. Then use that knowledge to overcome them and triumph.

Oh for sure! I don't think it's all bad news cause there's things in Palutena's kit that are absolutely amazing! Not even joking just the shield she uses for her dash attack eats any projectile thrown her way. You can use Side B to push people away from ledges and if they're in the free fall it's a guaranteed kill without breaking that free fall state.

It's just though when you fight people like Sheik it becomes a war of "What the hell can I even do?" sort of mentality. A lot of people tend to complain about Rosalina, and while I do think that matchup is in favor for Rosalina, it's nothing compared to some of the more faster characters in the game.

 

[Wintropy]

Oh for sure! I don't think it's all bad news cause there's things in Palutena's kit that are absolutely amazing! Not even joking just the shield she uses for her dash attack eats any projectile thrown her way. You can use Side B to push people away from ledges and if they're in the free fall it's a guaranteed kill without breaking that free fall state.

It's just though when you fight people like Sheik it becomes a war of "What the hell can I even do?" sort of mentality. A lot of people tend to complain about Rosalina, and while I do think that matchup is in favor for Rosalina, it's nothing compared to some of the more faster characters in the game.

I agree up to a point. There's plenty you can do, and I know from experience. It becomes a matter, then, of trying to outsmart your opponent and get them out of their comfort zone. I've fought enough Sheiks, Foxes, Zero Suit Samus and Diddies to know some things about beating fast characters, believe me~ ;3

 

[Enrel]

I agree up to a point. There's plenty you can do, and I know from experience. It becomes a matter, then, of trying to outsmart your opponent and get them out of their comfort zone. I've fought enough Sheiks, Foxes, Zero Suit Samus and Diddies to know some things about beating fast characters, believe me~ ;3

I'm sure there is but at this current level of Palutena's playing for me, it's like I can't even play or do anything against some of these people.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm sure there is but at this current level of Palutena's playing for me, it's like I can't even play or do anything against some of these people.

You said elsewhere that you're playing Palutena out of stubbornness because you like her as a character.

Guess what? So did I. I honestly contemplated rejecting her outright when the 3DS version came out, but I vowed to play her and I stuck with her through thick and thin. That's exactly how you get good as Palutena: hard work and perseverance. It may seem like a long and difficult road - and that's because it is - but it's well worth it in the end. The challenge is real, but the satisfaction of beating somebody as Palutena is just...

Sublime~! <3

 

[scalpel]

To be fair, Palutena has some ridiculously one-sided match-ups, in her favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpdlKluU-uI Heavy characters are super easy to juggle with jab, because her jab inflicts a much longer hit-stun/flinch to heavy targets, enabling easier grab follow-ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXf_emeV7vg For some reason, Shulk is an extremely favorable match-up for Palutena and I have no idea why. I feel like Palutena is a natural counterpick to him due to her unusual skill set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbGlXCT8rHQ And of course, Palutena is strong against any projectile-heavy gameplay and is usually the main reason people want to have a pocket Palutena.

 

[Enrel]

You said elsewhere that you're playing Palutena out of stubbornness because you like her as a character.

Guess what? So did I. I honestly contemplated rejecting her outright when the 3DS version came out, but I vowed to play her and I stuck with her through thick and thin. That's exactly how you get good as Palutena: hard work and perseverance. It may seem like a long and difficult road - and that's because it is - but it's well worth it in the end. The challenge is real, but the satisfaction of beating somebody as Palutena is just...

Sublime~! <3

Oh for sure! You feel so skilled doing something that is considered like the biggest struggle in gaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXf_emeV7vg For some reason, Shulk is an extremely favorable match-up for Palutena and I have no idea why. I feel like Palutena is a natural counterpick to him due to her unusual skill set.

Looking at it. It's probably because Shulk has to always be the one to approach to deal his damage and pressure. And he's in that weird fast on move but slow on attack thing that Palutena can take advantage of.

But holy crap! Look at that. I've never considered so many uses of warp like that. It's fairly easy to get the spacing you need if you use Up B at the right times.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

To be fair, Palutena has some ridiculously one-sided match-ups, in her favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpdlKluU-uI Heavy characters are super easy to juggle with jab, because her jab inflicts a much longer hit-stun/flinch to heavy targets, enabling easier grab follow-ups.
.

Jab isn't very good against Bowser, though.

 

[scalpel]

Jab isn't very good against Bowser, though.

Multi-jab is ineffective on Bowser because of his super armor but single jab pokes still flips Bowser up in the air when in neutral. Let me play some games today and try and find some spacing examples vs Bowser. Difficult because there aren't many Bowser players.

Here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOI0Kw4BRg#t=3m52s Jab is still really effective on Bowser but it needs to be very selective. It is true that he does have a lot of attacks that can power through jab with super armor, but for the most part it is a non-issue.

Of all the heavy characters, Charizard is actually the one that recovers the quickest from hit-flinch, so Palutena's jab is most ineffective on Charizard for combos. If I catch Charizard with a jab poke, I just follow up with rapid jab, which is not ideal because it sends the opponent flying away and does not allow for grab follow-ups.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What do you guys mean by "sticking to Palutena through stubbornness"? I found her to be a good character right out of the gate. She's pretty easy to understand (imo) if you have good smash fundamentals. *shrugs*

 

[Wintropy]

What do you guys mean by "sticking to Palutena through stubbornness"? I found her to be a good character right out of the gate. She's pretty easy to understand (imo) if you have good smash fundamentals. *shrugs*

Pretty much summed it up with that, m'darling.

:3

 

[ChivalRuse]

She's pretty easy to understand (imo) if you have good smash fundamentals. *shrugs*

<3

Seriously, though, there's not much to the character if you understand the game's mechanics. And they're nowhere near as complex as previous iterations of the franchise.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Yeah she's pretty darn bad, arguably in the bottom 3 without customs.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah she's pretty darn bad, arguably in the bottom 3 without customs.

Justify?

I've seen way, way too many good Palutenas without customs to agree with this.