Is Palutena really that bad?

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Useful for getting out of Diddy's d-throw air traps and the like.

 

[faderpotater]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Useful for getting out of Diddy's d-throw air traps and the like.

Personally I love using it as a reset to a more neutral position and to recover through edge guard attempts. I also feel due to Palutena's great jump height it gives her surprising survivability.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah her recovery is pretty nice. If you watch Big D's use of uair, you have some ways to protect yourself getting back from below the stage as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMZO1RYTrPI

 

[TastyCarcass]

You aren't serious right? Warp's landing lag is low. It's very hard to punish unless your opponent reads it. You shouldn't spam it, but it's an amazing escape tool in the right circumstances.

Your Smash fundamentals should be good enough to not need it as an escape tool.
It's above average as a recovery, but Pikachu gets a similar thing and it deals damage and can be acted out of much quicker, and Zelda gets one that kills people.

It's short enough of a recovery time to be difficult to punish if performed correctly, but too long to be used as a follow up to anything. You don't get out of it in time to punish anything but the slowest of attacks. By the time the move and the recovery animation is over, the opponent can easily react and assess the situation. Offensively it's fairly useless unless you were performing edge cancelling, which is fairly situational and doesn't apply to all stages.

I'd much rather have an up b with a hitbox than one that's only used for recovery. Just don't get hit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Your Smash fundamentals should be good enough to not need it as an escape tool.

Being above somebody is a bad position no matter how good your fundamentals are.

 

[Shrokatii]

Being above somebody is a bad position no matter how good your fundamentals are.

Especially if you're above Palutena herself. I think the majority of her kills are this way, at least for me. Her up-air is basically an anti-meteor smash, and death sentence. Hers is probably my favorite in the game.

 

[TastyCarcass]

You're right, it is her only tool for dealing with people below her.

I'm finding autoreticle to be extremely useful in the Sonic matchup. If you space him to be within its range and you see him charge up a down b, you can knock him out of it with it

 

[Duelisti]

To answer the topic: lolno.

Here's a few reasons why Auto-Reticle is not useless, even figuratively. It's still only decent at best, though.

• does roughly 2.9% per projectile, which definitely isn't bad
• goes through most other projectiles like nobody's business
  • combined with Reflect, allows Palutena to outzone many zoners
• good for conditioning/pressuring/punishing the opponent from afar (it's her only ranged option, after all)
• forces approaches in many MUs (and that's exactly what we want, don't we?)
• reverse B'ing makes AR a quite a bit safer, letting you space it better
• timing is key

Warp's amazing IMO, since it complements Palutena's evasiveness extremely well.

• less landing lag and much easier to ledge cancel than Zelda's UpB
  • shouldn't be very punishable unless you get predictable or use it improperly
• as already mentioned, amazing for getting back to neutral
• the mindgames
• quite safe and long as a recovery

 

[EmptySky00]

Answer to the topic: **** yes. Worse than my main in Brawl (I played Link lmfao)

Character is terrible as ****.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Answer to the topic: **** yes. Worse than my main in Brawl (I played Link lmfao)

Character is terrible as ****.

Dude what? There's no way Palutena's that bad. She has far more going for her than Brawl Link ever did.

 

[Rainiris]

Why are the ones that hasnt even bothered trying to master the character the ones dismissing her as utter bad?

 

[Steelo Rivers]

she's not bad, we just have a bunch of sheep on the site who believe in only diddy and sonic. Shoutouts to leffen

 

[ChivalRuse]

What do we all think of counter in the sonic matchup? His attacks are pretty telegraphed...

 

[Mysteltainn]

She isn't bad, not even close. I also prefer her default move-set above anything else personally. No, it won't give you easy kills like what a lot of people like and want, but it gives her A LOT of tools to use against a number of match-ups if they are used well. Her Warp doesn't kill, but it can be used for mind games if you don't get predictable with it. Auto-Ridicule isn't bad, as long as again, you aren't spamming it and get predictable and punished. I don't know who said it, but I concur with them in saying that AR is great against Sonic if used well, as it basically renders Spin Dash approaches useless as long as you are in the right place (no more 30% combos for you, Sonic). Counter is a counter, and Reflect is excellent not only because of it countering campy people, but its large hit-box slight push-back can really screw some recoveries sort of like how the wind from F-Smash can. I'm beating a dead horse with this one, but Palutena's D-Throw is also great, in that it opens up a decent amount of options depending on what your opponent tends to do afterwards, including a U-Smash or the fantastic U-Air.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I agree. If I had to choose between 1111, 2222 and 3333 I'd still go with 1111.

I've been playing her much more, and I've noticed that she's not the best at being a keep away character. I think she has the role of going a step further and being an anti - keep away character.

My main reason for thinking this is because of AR's ability to home on someone. It forces them to move, but it's not useful against characters who are playing in a mobile way. The best keep away characters IMO are Megaman, Zelda, Robin, and Link, and the only one who can directly aim at someone is zelda. If she's hit during her side b, she loses control of it, meaning she can't hit you. What this means is that you can jump at an extremely awkward angle where these characters can't hit you and poke them down, forcing them to get closer as they will not win long range trades with you.

I haven't tested if side b works on zelda's down b and side b, but I think she has plenty of tools for dealing with her.

I am going to be using her in tournaments, but this is because I'm trying to main Donkey Kong. I've had a hard time with certain characters who benefit from being at the opposite side of the stage to DK (specifically Zelda, Sonic and Robin) and I plan on using Palutena if my DK isn't working against them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Answer to the topic: **** yes. Worse than my main in Brawl (I played Link lmfao)

Character is terrible as ****.

You must be doing something wrong then, because she's a very solid character.

 

[BJN39]

My main reason for thinking this is because of AR's ability to home on someone. It forces them to move, but it's not useful against characters who are playing in a mobile way. The best keep away characters IMO are Megaman, Zelda, Robin, and Link, and the only one who can directly aim at someone is zelda. If she's hit during her side b, she loses control of it, meaning she can't hit you. What this means is that you can jump at an extremely awkward angle where these characters can't hit you and poke them down, forcing them to get closer as they will not win long range trades with you.

I haven't tested if side b works on zelda's down b and side b, but I think she has plenty of tools for dealing with her.

@ the bolded parts.

If you hit Zelda with AR during a Din's fire, she can give it one last angling, then it will travel full distance (if it can) and explode. If palu is using this tactic from max AR range, Din's will be able to reach her, at least making palu have to react to it. Duly noted that Din's fire actually has a longer travel distance than AR's detection range.

If palu is closer than that Zelda can angle it down (varying down angles depending on the distance.) and it will make contact with the ground and explode.

In my experience AR isn't super free moving flexible, meaning palu will likely be in range of din if this situation happens.

If palu reflects Din's, it won't hurt her though. I recommend any Zelda NOT to use Phantom vs Palutena because it's only way too easy to reflect it. Only use if Palu cannot use reflect for some reason.

Whether the situation, Zelda will likely have to go in if the opponent has even a half-bad projectile, (definitely more than palu in this MU.) as Din's requires too much commitment in comparison to most projectiles, only to be slow and cancelable.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah Din's is better for edgeguarding and Auto Reticule better on stage.

 

[mimgrim]

Good grief this thread makes me wanna bang my head against the wall. The only person who knows what they are even talking about in this thread is ChivalRuse. >_>

I agree. If I had to choose between 1111, 2222 and 3333 I'd still go with 1111.

3333 would be the way I go honestly. That set has Super Speed. The move is just that good.

2312 master race though.

 

[TastyCarcass]

What do we all think of counter in the sonic matchup? His attacks are pretty telegraphed...

Pretty bad. His telegraphed moves cause him to either bounce off or go past whatever he hits. The counter's punish wiffs because of this. It's a tiny hitbox

 

[Rainiris]

The tilts are better when dealing with sonic.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Shulk's counter is pretty slow so I'd understand if it didn't work on Sonic. I'm not sure about Palutena's though. Definitely going to test this out regardless.

 

[Rainiris]

The problem with palutena's counter dealing with sonic is the angle it affects. Palutena's counter is probably the worst counter in the game salve for the mirror mechanic.

It also gets cancelled if the floor is touched while casting it.
And has a warmup.

Other counters stand still midair in the place they're casted. Palutena will countinue to fall.

 

[xnine]

Yeah... I think Palutena's counter is probably one of the worst, if not the worst, counters in the game. It's real slow, the range is poor upon countering, and i think it has comparatively low knockback as well.

 

[TastyCarcass]

Shulk's counter is pretty slow so I'd understand if it didn't work on Sonic. I'm not sure about Palutena's though. Definitely going to test this out regardless.

Shulk's counter is slow but has a huge hitbox. If he does it in the air he gets the full sword swipe below him. You can even move shulk before the attack comes out to help him hit with it.

Meanwhile Palutena's is criminally terrible

 

[ChivalRuse]

People in this thread keep throwing around terms like "terrible" and "unusable" as if it's been predetermined how you have to play this game. All characters have many tools, and each tool has multiple applications. To disregard a character's tool simply because it doesn't quite accomplish what YOU want it to, or because you can't use it the way that you want to, doesn't make it a bad tool necessarily. Sometimes it has undiscovered or underrated utility.

 

[Wintropy]

People in this thread keep throwing around terms like "terrible" and "unusable" as if it's been predetermined how you have to play this game. All characters have many tools, and each tool has multiple applications. To disregard a character's tool simply because it doesn't quite accomplish what YOU want it to, or because you can't use it the way that you want to, doesn't make it a bad tool necessarily. Sometimes it has undiscovered or underrated utility.

I want this message engraved in fine letters upon a marble pedestal and put at the entrance to the Palutena board for all to bear witness to as they enter.

Play the game you want to play. If it works for you, well done; if it doesn't, try something else.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Shulk's counter is slow but has a huge hitbox. If he does it in the air he gets the full sword swipe below him. You can even move shulk before the attack comes out to help him hit with it.

Meanwhile Palutena's is criminally terrible

If he does it in the air, it barely hits below him, and even if he is facing toward center stage, if he misses he can be punished.

Palutena's doesn't really kill but it does still give her nice damage and help her defend against rush downs. Also, it doesn't get weaker over time. Even if you compare it 1:1 they're different characters so it doesn't really matter. Palutena's counter is very useful and the simple existence and possibility of using that move in a game will weaken the opponent by making him consider more things

 

[TastyCarcass]

People in this thread keep throwing around terms like "terrible" and "unusable" as if it's been predetermined how you have to play this game. All characters have many tools, and each tool has multiple applications. To disregard a character's tool simply because it doesn't quite accomplish what YOU want it to, or because you can't use it the way that you want to, doesn't make it a bad tool necessarily. Sometimes it has undiscovered or underrated utility.

I'm sensing that it upsets you. It shouldn't. We have different definitions of a good and bad move, and a powerful character doesn't need all of its moves to be good (melee marth, jigglypuff, sheik, Luigi). I define a good move in that it has a lot of uses and is still good even if the opponent is fully aware of its existence. If a move is only useful in extremely specific situations and certain characters then I don't consider it a good move.

If he does it in the air, it barely hits below him, and even if he is facing toward center stage, if he misses he can be punished.

Palutena's doesn't really kill but it does still give her nice damage and help her defend against rush downs. Also, it doesn't get weaker over time. Even if you compare it 1:1 they're different characters so it doesn't really matter. Palutena's counter is very useful and the simple existence and possibility of using that move in a game will weaken the opponent by making him consider more things

It's a large attack and it does hit about half of his height below him. I've landed Pal's upsmash against him with him above me, resulting in a counter punish.
As for rushdowns, Palutena's counter takes a long time to activate so you can't do it on reaction to a quick approach, nor can you activate it if a character is spamming attacks at you.
Even if you do land it, the hitbox is tiny. Your opponent knows it's there, but they'll probably also know that the follow up attack whiffs most of the time. If your opponent uses a move in which they'll end up on the other side of you then it probably won't hit. Because of this, you may as well just shield and get a grab. Obviously you can't do this in the air, but there it's even less likely to hit and can be cancelled by the floor. It's the worst counter in the game.

 

[Masque]

The only real use I've found for our goddess's Counter is against characters with really slow and blatantly telegraphed Smashes, e.g. Ike and Ganondorf.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm not trying to argue that counter is good or bad. Obviously a move that relies on your opponent doing something is going to have its flaws. We all can accept this. The purpose of my last few posts was to emphasize the importance of considering all of the weapons at our disposal when we attempt to formulate a game plan.

 

[xnine]

I'm not trying to argue that counter is good or bad. Obviously a move that relies on your opponent doing something is going to have its flaws. We all can accept this. The purpose of my last few posts was to emphasize the importance of considering all of the weapons at our disposal when we attempt to formulate a game plan.

Fair enough. I will admit that while I believe Palutena counter is among the worst, it IS still a counter. Unlike say... Jigglypuff's sing (which MAY have uses, but it's unlikely), I find myself using Palutena's counter in useful ways. It's especially great when you counter a heavy hitter like Aeris. Oooo man!

 

[Masque]

@ ChivalRuse - Agreed! Although some moves may have more limited usages than others, I can see situations in which every one of her moves would prove viable/useful.

Fair enough. I will admit that while I believe Palutena counter is among the worst, it IS still a counter. Unlike say... Jigglypuff's sing (which MAY have uses, but it's unlikely), I find myself using Palutena's counter in useful ways. It's especially great when you counter a heavy hitter like Aeris. Oooo man!

Few things are more satisfying than countering Ganondorf's Warlock Punch or Ike's Fsmash and watching them fly across the screen at light speed, lol.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

My take after a few hours of Palutena from yesterday.

Her FTilt is a fine read roll-punisher, and covers her from some projectiles.
Her UAir got good hitbox size, and is a fine KO move.
UTilt is, situational. Against Sheik, you're just asking to get kicked.
Her back air is pretty common. Quick and KO-able, though, I question her range.
All her specials are defensively useful. Barrir being good against combo chasers like Sheik, giving you breathing space. Warp being almost unpunishable, though, it's hard to control from below. Counter is, just that. I don't like Auto Reticle, though. It just never hits.
Side and Down Smash have small windboxes. Though, it doens't prevent you form being punished for missing. But I guess they could be used for edge-guarding?
Up smash should be used at a very rare occasion, as people have a tendency to forget that Palutena has the largest up smash in the game. Coupled with the execution speed and power, that's a deadly skill.
Grab range is insane. It's almost like Marth.
Oh, her DAir spikes. I think. The range isn't very good, though.


I play her like I would play Mewtwo, as they are halfly similar. Both being floaty, got a long lasting NAir, and teleports.
Kind of the only reaso I play Palutena. I'm a sucker for teleports.

 

[TastyCarcass]

My take after a few hours of Palutena from yesterday.

UTilt is, situational. Against Sheik, you're just asking to get kicked.

It's a pretty good Aair move. Her hitbox becomes tiny and it's a disjointed hitbox, so if Sheik uses her dair, or if another character uses a move like that, the up tilt will beat it.

Her back air is pretty common. Quick and KO-able, though, I question her range.

It's a great move. It uses Pal's shield, which gives it a special property where it ignores clashes. It makes it a great edgeguarding move because of that, or if you know you need to hit someone through a dangerous move.

Side and Down Smash have small windboxes. Though, it doens't prevent you form being punished for missing. But I guess they could be used for edge-guarding?

I find the side b windbox pushes them back enough for it to be safe against some aerial moves.

Up smash should be used at a very rare occasion, as people have a tendency to forget that Palutena has the largest up smash in the game. Coupled with the execution speed and power, that's a deadly skill.

I try to use it like Pikachu's thunder, just denying an area. It's easy for opponent's to forget about it, and it's possible to catch them during aerials with it.

I play her like I would play Mewtwo, as they are halfly similar. Both being floaty, got a long lasting NAir, and teleports.
Kind of the only reaso I play Palutena. I'm a sucker for teleports.

I don't know why I didn't spot this before

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Her shield has an actual property? Fun stuff.

 

[Masque]

I play her like I would play Mewtwo, as they are halfly similar. Both being floaty, got a long lasting NAir, and teleports.
Kind of the only reaso I play Palutena. I'm a sucker for teleports.

Whoooa, I never thought about this, but you're totally right!

 

[gsninja]

It's not that Palutena is bad at all, but after the whole "Palutena is OP" period in the very early going of Smash 4, it seems like people rebounded from that in a big way.

 

[Zediwonder]

It's not that Palutena is bad at all, but after the whole "Palutena is OP" period in the very early going of Smash 4, it seems like people rebounded from that in a big way.

It wasn't even a real period, it's like people used her moves and saw her range and just said "whoa, so OP" then when they played her and she wasn't as easy to use as Diddy or Sheik, just none of them bothered to look past her surface value.

 

[Dinoman96]

It wasn't even a real period, it's like people used her moves and saw her range and just said "whoa, so OP" then when they played her and she wasn't as easy to use as Diddy or Sheik, just none of them bothered to look past her surface value.

From my point of view, it was also that people were somewhat traumatized by Meta Knight. Between that and Kirby in Smash 64, people thought that Sakurai was some crazy biased mad man who deliberately makes his characters overpowered on purpose.

Meanwhile, Kirby is at the very bottom of Melee's tier list.