Is Link Viable?

[BRLNK88]

And this does not apply to other characters?

No offense, just flipping the argument.

Yes, it does apply to other characters.
Axe is undoubtedly the best Pika, but also look at his Falco.
There's no question Falco is a much better character than Pika, but Axe is an extremely skilled player, and Pika is his best character. He still switches to Falco from time to time when his Pika isn't getting the job done, as does Germ with Falco. I think even HDL has a pocket Marth.
A lot players that start with low tiers that are more interested in winning, realize those low tiers have a hard time getting the job done, and thus they switch to a higher tier. Some get really good, some don't, but it doesn't cover the fact that hardly anyone does well at a high level exclusively with a low tier. Mango has a pretty good Link, do you really think he would have gotten to where he is if he didn't main Falco/Puff/Fox instead?
That's where it all boils down to that there's nothing wrong with picking up Link as long as you don't care too much about winning.

 

[Zekersaurus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jte702MKJKs

That does not happen all the time. That was a series of smart decisions and the ideal situation where you have a saved jumps and/or a bomb in hand.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

That does not happen all the time. That was a series of smart decisions and the ideal situation where you have a saved jumps and/or a bomb in hand.

You are kinda argumenting against yourself. Isn't everything in this game trying to create ideal situations by making smart decisions? Shouldn't that apply to recovery too?

Link got a versatile, unpredictable, quick and long recovery, all at once. He is impossible to edgeguard without a read for all characters including jigglypuff. Links recovery is probably among the top 5 recoveries in the game, or if it isn't it's probably pretty close to that (samus, peach, puff having better recovery).

Link got so many unique options when recovering it's stupid, throw bomb and boomerang over ledge, air dodge through an attack, up B covers so much of the ledge that you can punish ledge rolls with it/ knock em off the edge. Save double jump until after hook for super low recovery, bomb jump(which sucks though IMO, ). And more, you should know and I think you do. Best of all is that he has better options from ledge than the aforementioned better recoverers with the quickest ledgegrab, good stall, ledge jump nair, fair, dair and uair. He can surprise recover onto stage with hookshot reel in -> ledge jump nair in just a few frames.

Point is, Links recovery is anything but bad if you compare it to other characters in the game and when people complains about his recovery I start thinking the other stuff might not be true neither and people just don't know why Link actually suck and this is somehow takes focus from sharing ideas on how to solve certain problems, cause he sucks so all of a sudden he can't do anything and it is okay if you loose with him, cause he suck.

@BRLNK88: I must say I agree.

 

[Smurfy EXE]

crushnasty

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

So... What're we arguing about here now? We've got the people who see the potential in Link who care about playing the character and we've got the people who just try to say he's a **** character...

The others are wrong!

What is this thread accomplishing?

Keyboard Warriors practice.

I'm still very confused

You should be!

EDIT: Don't take this post as me saying, "OH MY GOD LINK IS JUST AS GOOD AS FALCO YOU ALL JUST SUCK BLEH BLEH BLEH"
Merely, we have those who like Link, and those who don't... So, why are we bothering with this?

Because nothing else is discussed. I have the opinion that all low tiers are underestimated. The tier list is probs right, but it doesn't matter all that much.

And lastly, Link is unique, there is no character that does everything he does, better. That makes him interesting even though he is a low tier.

 

[Bing]

I think KK sumed it up pretty well. The Question was "is Link viable?" and the answer is, top 32 at a major, sure its possible, winning a major? Not at this point.

We can sit here and discuss Link's pros and cons all day, but people are unrealistic. There are those who don't have much faith in Link, those who do while admitting his faults and those who are simply blind to these cons.

Link's recovery is pretty decent, while being a bit unorthodox, it can be effective though can be punished pretty hard to.

 

[J.Shadows]

Link is the best

 

[Kully]

I really feel that has potential. Especially with all those projectiles. Like, you can probably cover so many options if you get good enough, that edge guards and tech chases work.

 

[Mr.C]

I played Link in my competitive arsenal and achieved #7 on Texas PR rankings when 3/10 of the people on the list were top 25 in the NA before Brawl's release. He's competitively viable; Link is also a suitable pick against floaty characters. There were around 3-5 good Link players around in my day, all of them consistently placed top 1-10 in their respective tournament zones.

Is he capable of placing 1st at a major tournament? Probably not. None of the top 1-10 players use Link. That doesn't change the fact he's completely capable of placing well in tournaments if you're a skilled player; top 5-10 placings are achievable.

 

[Zodiac]

After going all Link at Evo and watching J666 play at Evo I am more convinced that Link can be viable on a larger scale than we thought. I am going to keep expanding my Link's skill and try to play him at a top level.

 

[HDL]

This topic has been posted countless times, but here's some input anyway.

I don't get to travel often but every time I do, I always manage to beat top players, and not just one or two matches but many. Link has what it takes, it just requires a tremendous amount of dedication, study, and execution to actually make it happen. That being said I do think that you need to counterpick two matchups (Sheik and Falcon), because they both create situations in which Link has little to no options for escape and it becomes more of a demonstration of character disadvantages as opposed to player VS player.

Link can handle every other matchup, but he demands no less than the utmost passion to play well. Those who say he sucks or can't beat Fox/Falco or whatever have shifted all the blame to the character instead of themselves as players. Basically it's super cliché but if you want to walk this path you must steel yourself for the trials and tribulations. No heart, no progress.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree with HDL.

Solo character, probably not. But with backup for his worst matchups then he can probably do it.

 

[Strong Badam]

And then you use a backup char for a few MUs and then you realize "why am I even using Link ever"

 

[J.Shadows]

I don't have a backup am I doing Link wrong? :o

 

[KirbyKaze]

What are your placements like?

 

[J.Shadows]

Better than most Link's I'm J666. I feel like I lose because I get outplayed not because I'm Link

 

[Zodiac]

I might be moving to portland soon and if so, I can play against eggz with my link all day errday and practice that match up, because I know he is just better than I am in general but when I play him he makes the fox match up look like a hopeless struggle.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The answer is no he is not.

 

[cjugs]

Link is the best worst character in the game, he has options and he is to slow to use them anyone with MU experience against link Fox Falco falcon Sheik are almost unbeatable. That being said he is 100% viable in (situational matchups) like doc samus maybe jiggs marth really even a top tier if they don't know the matchup and you think you can surprise them if your link is good. Long story short yes he is viable for situational use only, he has to many difficult matchups against a very popular top tier cast so maining link is not smart, secondary one very good idea.

 

[SAUS]

I think he is currently underrated. I don't think he's gonna win anything huge, but he definitely has more potential than some people give him credit for. I wish I could travel more to big tournaments - perhaps when I am done university - so that I could try my Link against more players. I watched some games recently of J666 and someone else (can't remember the name unfortunately) playing against very high level players, and I believe they could have beaten them, or perhaps have at least done better.

The thing with Link is that there are few players who try to play him. There's not many people to set the example. He has potential, not to be on the top of the tier list or anything, but I think he has the potential to make a jump up a tier.

His main weaknesses are:
- Non-traditional grab that is too damn slow for traditional uses, so you have to get creative.
- Long time to get off the ground with his jump, so slow wavedash (and he doesn't go far with it) and a minor set-back to the speed of his aerials.
- These 2 factors combine to make him bad out-of-shield (can't grab OoS, can't wavedash a lot of the time, so your options are limited).
- Against spacies (you WILL play against a lot of them), you don't have a grab that is reliable enough for early comboing, and almost none of your moves knock the spacies over. You down-smash and then you are swinging for the second swing and they are charging a smash or gearing up for a huge combo.

There are other minor things, but these I find are the biggest issues.

 

[cjugs]

^ i think his spot on the tier list is correct.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)
Lol at captain falcons placement over the years from below link to second best to low again lol.

 

[SAUS]

^ i think his spot on the tier list is correct.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)
Lol at captain falcons placement over the years from below link to second best to low again lol.

Hmm I may have been looking at the wrong list lol. Anyway, I still think people underrate him when they see someone play Link. Some of my favourite memories of the smash tournaments I attended years ago are of people getting mad that they got rocked by my Link.

 

[cjugs]

Hmm I may have been looking at the wrong list lol.

Lol yeah i'm not saying he isn't fun and all and same here i learned how to play with link so he always hits very close to home, plus i'm a die hard Zelda fan. I'm happy with his tier placingi think he's the best of the worst i think he would be around samus tier if his jump speed where faster. And i don't like his tech chasing sure you can build with grabs but i'm talking about like when they tech away ok what dash attack? Good idea send them a thousand feet away, now if he had something like falcons knee falcos nair even luigi nair just some Shffl that packed a punch fair works but it's to slow to get out but if he were a little faster it would work. BTW the matchup chart says link goes even with kirby what the ****!!!!!! there's no way kirby is the worst in the game and link goes even with him? making him a viable option against link? no way.

 

[SAUS]

Lol yeah i'm not saying he isn't fun and all and same here i learned how to play with link so he always hits very close to home, plus i'm a die hard Zelda fan. I'm happy with his tier placingi think he's the best of the worst i think he would be around samus tier if his jump speed where faster. And i don't like his tech chasing sure you can build with grabs but i'm talking about like when they tech away ok what dash attack? Good idea send them a thousand feet away, now if he had something like falcons knee falcos nair even luigi nair just some Shffl that packed a punch fair works but it's to slow to get out but if he were a little faster it would work. BTW the matchup chart says link goes even with kirby what the ****!!!!!! there's no way kirby is the worst in the game and link goes even with him? making him a viable option against link? no way.

LOL! at kirby matchup. I can't see that being accurate. They probably just had no idea what the matchup is like or something.

I think his jump speed is his biggest weakness. It slows down his wavedash and his aerials. I think his tech chasing is fine. There's some cases where you can't chase them at all, but you can get a bomb out and throw your boomerang or something. However, he can tech chase like a boss near an edge since your opponent can't tech far enough away in either direction. You just have to react correctly. I think he is capable of chasing on platforms as well. With dash attack, I find you can follow into at least a nair afterwards on basically everyone. I don't think it's that bad.

As for a strong aerial that sends outwards, he doesn't have one. I don't even consider his fair to be like this because it doesn't hit hard enough. I find this is why enemies tend to get to over 150% sometimes. It's just not that easy to kill with Link because his kill moves aren't super easy to connect into. I find nair into edge-guard to be the best way to kill most of the time.

He definitely can't shuffle moves to wall people, but his nair can still at least help him. I think overall, he is weak in people's minds because he doesn't play like the other characters. You can't play falcon or marth, and then switch to Link and get work done. You need to know how to play Link.

 

[cjugs]

This topic has been posted countless times, but here's some input anyway.

I don't get to travel often but every time I do, I always manage to beat top players, and not just one or two matches but many. Link has what it takes, it just requires a tremendous amount of dedication, study, and execution to actually make it happen. That being said I do think that you need to counterpick two matchups (Sheik and Falcon), because they both create situations in which Link has little to no options for escape and it becomes more of a demonstration of character disadvantages as opposed to player VS player.

Link can handle every other matchup, but he demands no less than the utmost passion to play well. Those who say he sucks or can't beat Fox/Falco or whatever have shifted all the blame to the character instead of themselves as players. Basically it's super cliché but if you want to walk this path you must steel yourself for the trials and tribulations. No heart, no progress.

What made you change your mind about the marth and falco matchup I thought u considered these to be links worst matchups. How come you consider fox not links worst matchup I have always considered this one to be his worse but you have never mentioned it a problem for you what does your link have over fox? Which top players did u beat was it in a tourny or just mm or casual matches.

 

[Dubforce]

I'm kind of an up-and-coming player and I'm seriously considering playing Link or Young Link (yet to decide) as my main. I'm currently practicing marth because I want to kind of "prove" to myself (and others) than I can do well at all.

Meaning if I can't do well with an easy top tier like marth then I probably won't have any more luck with Link/Young Link.

However, its important to note that I did not actually practice until recently, I only played the game. Now I practice movement and tech skill at least an hour a day, and I am visibly improving, and quite fast as well. My goal right now is top 100 at Apex 2015, and if I can accomplish that, then I hope to switch my efforts to Link/Yink and be the low tier hero that this community needs.

 

[cjugs]

I'm kind of an up-and-coming player and I'm seriously considering playing Link or Young Link (yet to decide) as my main. I'm currently practicing marth because I want to kind of "prove" to myself (and others) than I can do well at all.

Meaning if I can't do well with an easy top tier like marth then I probably won't have any more luck with Link/Young Link.

However, its important to note that I did not actually practice until recently, I only played the game. Now I practice movement and tech skill at least an hour a day, and I am visibly improving, and quite fast as well. My goal right now is top 100 at Apex 2015, and if I can accomplish that, then I hope to switch my efforts to Link/Yink and be the low tier hero that this community needs.

I am almost positive that there hasn't been a link player make it out of pools at pound apex national tournys etc. Ok this is kind of a lengthy message but you need to read it. You are losing with marth and top tiers because you are wrong in saying winning with a (easy top tier) if there is a power lvl gap yes you will lose doesn't matter if you are playing sheik puff or fox if you aren't good you are going to lose. On the contrary picking up link you will probably win very quickly because links ceiling if very short and you will reach it quickly, but once the only players in the crew ( or anyone) reaches the ceiling that is equally skilled will more then likely beat you because ON AVERAGE (i put this in here for the exceptionally good link players( hdl germ skler) who may be offended because they have put more time and effort into the character to expand the ceiling and the disadvantage. ON average look at the matchup chart to see where you stand against top characters. Long story short if you play link at maybe a 3 level (from one to 10) and your friends are around there you will almost always win. 5-7 you will feel the disadvantage and almost always feel handicapped anything above 7 you won't have a chance against good people with top tiers UNLESS you become a top exceptional player who can beat good people with good characters with link which takes tons of XP. Don't give up on topo tiers because once you get better you will hit a good stride.
It's worth noting that i mained link for 2 years was a below average player to average player. last month mained falco probably above average now. Kind of like playing ping pong with a stick and then moving to a paddle method which i didn't do on purpose, but my first couple of weeks i was getting creamed!!!!!!!!!! by people i could beat with link then got alot better top tiers huge learning curve.
It is also worth noting i will always play link vs samus IC and maybe a marth puff and probably peach like floaties characters i feel like i have a good enough chance.that is straight giving my Falco the Biz so Link so situational use good idea because he AWESOME!!!!~!

 

[Dubforce]

I can dig it, and this kind of outlines my plans anyways.

We'll see what happens as I progress. I feel like link would have a much higher skill ceiling than marth, btw, but maybe thats because I view those disadvantages and learning them as part of the skill ceiling.

 

[cjugs]

Short answer no, reason why because marth has a answer for anything fox does that is why it is a even matchup, Links matchup against fox is controversial skeleton says 15-85 fox HDL says it's 60-40 he's a great player but he's pretty alone on that opinion. Link does not have a answer for everything fox does he won't get faster he won't have a recovery so vulnerable to gimps watch Isai vs germ isai is a great player but not famous for bein fox beats germ w ease germ is one of the best links so no his skill ceiling is far shorter. That being said thinking the way ubare thinking WILL help u for example keeping yourself out of bad situations with link with limited options you will have a much more understand and knowledge on how to deal with situations link can't deal with. I think link is the best beginner character in the game a hell of a lot of fun and has viable situation use

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I dont agree with cjugs at all. The better me and my crew gets, the less the character choice matters. If it is Link you want to play, cause you feel at home with his moveset, then it is Link you should play. You will feel completely destroyed sometimes and it feels like there is no way around some stuff, when this happens, noone can help you find the answer, cause chances are you will be the only Link. So far though, in my experience, there is always some way around it.

For example, I was sure that if a fox can do perfect waveshines, Link cannot win, there is no way to avoid the shine. But then I got the advice to SDI the opposite direction, behind fox, it works like a charm and the best part is that it lets you counter attack.

 

[Dubforce]

I am going to practice with both characters as hard as I can, and I will decide who to main for the time being at a local tourney next week.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't think he's viable. I think that while HDL and a few others can do decent with them now is mostly because people don't really know the matchup. Link is plagued with so many problems that really prevents him from really winning at a certain point in the meta.

It's not just that he is slow in general, all of his movement options are well below average. To make things worth, his OoS options are really bad. He is very easy to trap into a shield and once you have him there there isn't a lot that he can do to get out of it. If you are aware of his options, you can really punish him hard here. His recovery is also below average, and he doesn't have many good options from the ledge. If that wasn't enough, he doesn't have enough stun to compensate for the lag of his attacks. So he has very few safe options in neutral.

In contrast, look at Marth. Right now people are claiming that Marth is "no longer viable." Marth also has a poor OoS game, and similar recovery problems, but his moveset has an appropriate amount of stun, and he has some of the best movement options in the game. He also can do A LOT from grabs and has arguably the best grab in the game. If people are claiming that Marth isn't viable (which is just silly) then it's really, really bad for Link.

In contrast with other low tiers mentioned in this thread, Link has way worse movement options overall. Pika, Yoshi, and Mewtwo are all quite fast in either normal movement speed, wavedash speed, and have alternate/unique methods of movement/escapes as well. I think this is the main reason why they can be performed at a high level, because they can maneuver to take stage control as well as escape bad situations. So even if they have certain problem areas, they are much harder to pin them down and abuse it. Link doesn't have these tools, and thus is forced to play from bad positioning more often.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

@ MookieRah :
What I agree with is that Link is awfully slow at moving around, it cripples him,

His OoS is really bad if you are stuck without a bomb or a rang returning back to you, but with one of them you can always counter attack OoS, otherwise you got nair and bair OoS which both have the same 10frames startup that his other more risky old school-style options UpB and grab, they both also give better follow up at lower percentages.

He does however don't lack safe options in his neutral game. Nair, jab, utilt, fair and bair all serve him really well. He also got his projectiles to create a more safe approach.

Link has some trouble getting around people shielding since you need to shield poke to not put yourself into awkward situations a lot. Luckily, just about everything he does shield pokes. He also got that fsmash and jab that throws in a lot of mind games that helps you wear down shields. So it's a problem that seems glaring at first, that just isn't that bad, he's still kinda mediocre at attacking shields but not terribad worst in the game.

His recovery is however NOT a problem, do it right and you will get back. Best part about Link's recovery is that there are a lot of options, and all of them are dangerous to contest. The fact that there are a lot of options also mean you need to learn them. He have a lot of options from the ledge, he actually have a shorter ledge grab animation than any other character in the cast, meaning he is an effective ledge staller, his fair, his nair and his rang are all good options from the ledge.

As for the comparison with Marth, I don't think Link should be grab reliant like Marth, Link is more like a Ganon with projectiles and a good recovery than anything else imo (tbh I don't see anything that would make one put Ganon over Link in the tier list based on sole theory crafting, to me anything Ganon got, Link got too, and Link got a few other tools added to the mix. Ganon is however backed by tournament results, so I'll leave that discussion at that). Here are some of the most obvious things that differ between them, that also affect:
- Marth can and will get a lot on cornering people, Link can't and won't rely on that
- Link can camp in some matchups
- Marth has a great grab game, Link only have a great throw game, meaning his grab is best off used to extend combos via tech chase or by using landing lag, not start them.
- Marth does not have any long duration moves, Link's playstyle is based around the ones he got(nair and uair)
- Link does not have to combo into kill moves and don't lack finishers the way Marth do,
- Link's recovery game does have options, is quick and can only be gimped if you read it, it can also get the edgeguarder in a bad position if they don't watch out when edgeguarding you.

Hope you show up at beauty or beast and Ill show you.

And lol, this post went wall of text, the tl;dr for the weak is: Link is not as bad as everyone says he is, he is different. Still low tier, not terrible.

 

[MookieRah]

His OoS is really bad if you are stuck without a bomb or a rang returning back to you, but with one of them you can always counter attack OoS, otherwise you got nair and bair OoS which both have the same 10frames startup that his other more risky old school-style options UpB and grab, they both also give better follow up at lower percentages.

You cannot rely on having a boomerang coming out or having a bomb in most cases, and if you do it's quite telegraphed. As for nair and bair, it's really not that hard to get around those two moves. Link's wavedash doesn't save him much as an escape either. His shield grab is also really bad, so he doesn't have that going for him most of the time either.

He does however don't lack safe options in his neutral game. Nair, jab, utilt, fair and bair all serve him really well. He also got his projectiles to create a more safe approach.

Utilt isn't a neutral game sort of move, at least not conventionally. Bair and Nair can be CC'ed pretty hard (especially bair, I don't know the numbers on nair though). Jab isn't terrible, but it isn't amazing either. I used to do a lot of fairs on shields way back in the day, so I think it actually isn't that unsafe, but that is really about it. Projectiles can do some great things, but you have to have the positioning to take advantage of them safely, but Link being slow makes it harder than it should to set himself up for this, and even then he can't hold it for very long once he has it.

his fair, his nair and his rang are all good options from the ledge.

Fun stuff. I'll just wait for it and shield grab, or do something else. I'm not really scared of Link at the edge, as he has no positioning to do anything that threatening and would be forced to act.

As far as the actual recovery itself, it's not very hard to punish un-sweet spotted hookshot recoveries, and it's easy to just wavedash and grab the ledge if Link is going to do his upB from below. You have plenty of time to react to the upB if Link lands on the stage.

I do have one question, can Link effectively hax dash? That would help him out a good deal.

As for the comparison with Marth, I don't think Link should be grab reliant like Marth

I wasn't trying to say that Link was anything like Marth or vice versa. I was just simply saying that everything Marth suffers from, Link suffers from, and he has more problem areas.

I do disagree with the Ganon/Link analogy, but I'd have to research Ganon's frame data to debate it and I'm far to lazy for that xD.

Hope you show up at beauty or beast and Ill show you.

Sadly I won't be able to attend either of those, although some of the guys I'm helping to train up will attend. Want me to give them a shout out for you in my place? Also, the guys here in Umeå are gearing up to host a tournament here next April, so if you attend that then we can play.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Still not seen any character being at a range where you can't either crossover nair or out-space with fair or rang. Done it enough times to be sure. Most characters(any other?) Does not enjoy having both a sex kick and a high range move from the ledge. Marth doesn't (Marth has a hard time doing crossovers in my experience since you can't travel through the shield during the shield lag for some reason, guess he might have less stun or his moves just actually kind hits too early, but that's a different story too), Fox doesn't, the more floaty characters have trouble attacking from the ledge at all. Throw in good ledge stall and you can both make both the questions "when?" and "what?" to appear in the opponents head. What it comes down to in the end is a read, there is no goto alternative against Link's ledge-game. My personal playstyle actually goes to the ledge a lot when playing Link as from the ledge Link gains a lot of speed and ability to act in comparison to being on the stage and cornered IMO(switching a bad slow jump for a quick one).

If you wavedash off to get invince so that I miss can't to quick reel in on my hookshot I can just throw a projectile, jump and/or airdodge to make you loose yor invince which would give me the window I need to hookshot. I mostly only UpB if I think I can catch my opponent in it, it counter-aggressive whereas the hookshot is more like counter-defensive, links projectiles added to the mix and it can actually be quite hard to edgeguard him. Link also have enough range on his recovery so that he doesn't need to always DI towards the stage to get in from a launch. Link's hookshot also means he is really fast at recovering, this means Link, just like fox/falco can with illusion, can avoid some edgeguards.

A rang is telegraphed yes, but the opponent gets vulnerable for having to deal with it, that gives you a small window to act and get out, rolling is not the only way to use a returning rang, lightshielding actually helps a lot since you will get out of the quick onslaught where they can just time the aerials to cancel the rang, it forces them to move a little, make the frequency slower and with some luck/skill make them unable to continue without getting hit by the rang and let you escape and maybe even counter attack. Bombs have great diversity and are great OoS, I'll be as daring as to say it's probably top 10 in the game, dropping them, cooking them, throwing them, SH throw them, once again light shielding helps a lot, it will add range between you that lets you use a 6frame OoS alternative(if you choose bomb drop), it will also help you keep your shield up for longer, and you will need it, cause you will need to be patient to get out of shield pressure.

Link and Marth does not suffer from the same stuff, two big things are that Marth doesn't really have a good recovery and have no backup kill alternatives. and his kill options overlap percentage-wise. Marth's recovery is just worse than Link's, fewer options, fewer routes, worse range. Marth don't have a projectile, it hurts him as the metagame turns more defensive and waiting, cause one of Marth's big strengths is how he can counter-attack and fend off approaches, how is he supposed to do that when the opponent isn't approaching. Link don't have that problem, he can throw stuff right back.

And yes, I really want to see how good you in Umeå have become, I will for certain play them, as for the Umeå tourney, I don't know yet, will try to show up, but I leave no guarantees.

EDIT: Missed a paragraph, so I thought Ill just add the answer to it.

Links projectile game is pretty good vertically, cause of links fall speed and jump height. You need to use that trait use it effectively. Utilt is maybe not a neutral game move when you look at it at first, but it fends off shorthop aproaches is good after a crossover and a good transition into your combo game. Links nair have so many uses a double nair screws up CC of smaller, lighter characters, a nair->uair(just as you would do a double nair just that you iasa with uair instead) screws up with CC of bigger, heavier characters. If you space the fair you can connect it into a double fsmash if the opponent CCs, thats some heavy percentage for a quite simple punish and it can put people on platforms in teching position which can let you continue with some uairs. CC is a problem, but there is options for CC too. If you do a rising bair you can jump away and throw a rang before they can shieldgrab or jump further into their shield with a crossover nair.

 

[Deleted member]

no, link is not viable.

 

[MookieRah]

Marth doesn't (Marth has a hard time doing crossovers in my experience since you can't travel through the shield during the shield lag for some reason, guess he might have less stun or his moves just actually kind hits too early, but that's a different story too)

Most characters(any other?) Does not enjoy having both a sex kick and a high range move from the ledge.

From an edgeguarding position, as in you place yourself on the ledge to take advantage of the situation in the best way you can, I don't imagine Link being very threatening from the ledge. I don't even have to consider any crossover scenarios because it doesn't benefit me to be that close, and if I was that close then I have made a positioning error.

With Marth I can safely place myself outside your fair range but within tipper/dtilt/ftilt range and have no worries about any attack you could throw at me from the ledge. Unless Link's getup animation is super dumb fast (Marth's only has two frames where he isn't protected, but it's still not hard to hit him out of it), Link has a hax dash, or Link is in a stock/percent advantage and begins to do a perfect ledgestall (assuming he has protection the entire time, which is fairly unlikely), there isn't many things Link can do to gain an upper hand if I'm patient and react appropriately. Even if you ledgestall, if I'm in the lead you are not doing anything to better your position, you are still forced to be the one to act.

I can't see how this scenario would play out much differently if I was Mewtwo either. As long as I am not right on top of the ledge I should be able to punish you just fine.

If you wavedash off to get invince so that I miss can't to quick reel in on my hookshot I can just throw a projectile, jump and/or airdodge to make you loose yor invince which would give me the window I need to hookshot.

This is situational at best because you don't always have a bomb handy.

Link's hookshot also means he is really fast at recovering, this means Link, just like fox/falco can with illusion, can avoid some edgeguards.

Yes, but this gets us back to the first part of my post. Unlike Fox and Falco, Link doesn't have as many safe options to get off the ledge.

On Bombs and Rangs for OoS
I wasn't saying they weren't good for OoS stuff, but again, it's very situational. It's also fairly apparent when you have that advantage and one should adjust their strategy when you have that in your favor. However, without those things Link has very poor OoS options.

Link and Marth does not suffer from the same stuff, two big things are that Marth doesn't really have a good recovery and have no backup kill alternatives. and his kill options overlap percentage-wise. Marth's recovery is just worse than Link's, fewer options, fewer routes, worse range.

Generally speaking, they both suffer from the same problem, even if Link has more options and is better, both are below average. It's also not just recovery, but poor options from the ledge. Also poor options from shield. That is where they have similar trouble spots.

Marth don't have a projectile, it hurts him as the metagame turns more defensive and waiting, cause one of Marth's big strengths is how he can counter-attack and fend off approaches, how is he supposed to do that when the opponent isn't approaching.

Marth doesn't really have a problem approaching. He just doesn't approach with attacks, but mostly movement. The opponent has to react to Marth when he moves in, because he threatens them with his grab or the possibility of his attacks.

And yes, I really want to see how good you in Umeå have become

They've come a long way in a short time, but they still have a ways to go. They impress me whenever I play them. I'm hoping they are putting in some practice over this break too. In any case, I'll tell them to play you and to tell me I'm a dumbass if they think I'm wrong xD. I'm ok with being wrong, but from my experience/knowledge I just don't see Link being a contender. Even from a theory perspective I don't see how Link could ever beat the Marth matchup, and that is one of many he has problems with.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I don't know the Marth matchup too well(and don't know the Mewtwo matchup at all) but I do know it enough to say that if the perspective you are talking from is Link vs Marth, then yes, Marth can corner and edgeguard Link effectively and yes Marth shouldn't place himself that close to the ledge. I was speaking more generally, thinking of more matchups, there are characters that stand on the ledge really close when edgeguarding and benefit from it. Fox and falco being the most obvious. Dunno if Link has perfect invince when ledge stalling, but it is pretty damn close, so close that any character that doesn't enjoy having a low hitting move with long duration will have a hard time doing anything about it. As for hax dashing I don't know, he does get a pretty quick drop when doing a fast fall and his double jump gains vertically instantly, so to me it seems possible, he would benefit from hax dashing a lot though . He can do this thing where you jump up airdodge hookshot slip-off, I can't pull it off consistently, but its pretty damn quick and something that can expand his meta.

I actually do rely on bombs and rangs to defend me properly and it is less situational than you might think. For me it's clearly noticeable in most of my matches and not just something that happens every other game.

I can and will always have a bomb during a longer recovery, I have the time to make the pull and will always make it, Link should pull a bomb at every occasion he can do so without losing positioning, when he is launched off stage you are in such a position most of the time, the only other scenarios being where you semi-combo or combo me offstage where the edgeguarder is in a very strong position and I need to make a wiggle airdodge or an upB to get out or you launching me close to the ledge where I can just recover to the ledge before you can edgeguard me or I DI badly and only have the bomb jump as a recovery option which basically means I'm dead cause bomb jumping is the most easy edgeguarded recovery option in the game(its like a worse version of PKT2) and only reliable in teams, but hey it looks cool and if the match is heated the opponent could screw up and most characters can't even get close to ledge from that distance.

 

[MookieRah]

I just took a quick look at Link's frame data, and wow... So bad :-(. Almost all of his moves are negative on shield by A LOT. Only a few moves aren't so bad, but only one is 0, which is fair. Not even a single move that is plus on shield. That is pretty bad :-(.

I was speaking more generally, thinking of more matchups, there are characters that stand on the ledge really close when edgeguarding and benefit from it. Fox and falco being the most obvious.

Well if they are doing that it is simply because they simply aren't aware that you can cross them up and haven't prepared an adequate defence against your cross-up. I can assure you that both of them have plenty of options to shut down all of your available options from the ledge, they simply have to be patient and not be overly-aggressive. As far as other characters go, I'm pretty sure pretty much every character in the game could counter those options fairly well. Any strong anti-air will beat out any of those attacks, save for possibly nair in some situations, and it's simple to just space one's self right outside of your threatened area and simply react to your other options. Rang would still be able to hit, but given that it takes 27 frames before the rang is out it would be easy to react to.

I mentioned Mewtwo because he doesn't have many strong punish options, but I would be able to punish all of the options you mentioned with a fair amount of ease while still being able to react to your rolls, jump, ledge-jump, or air dodge.

Hax dashing would help here, much like it helps Marth, because it makes his ledge game more ambiguous. One couldn't simply react to a jump up from the ledge, as you don't know if it will be a Hax dash or a legit attempt to get back on the stage and make it way harder for your opponent to react to your options. I would definitely work on this if I was a Link main, as you will need all the help you can get.

I actually do rely on bombs and rangs to defend me properly and it is less situational than you might think.

Bombs are a double edged sword though. It's like Peach with turnips. If a character stays in Link's face (while respecting his space) you will be risking an attack every time you grab for a bomb because you essentially forfeit over half a second to grab the bomb. I very much doubt that you are respecting your opponents space enough to cover for that much time. If Link was a real contender for competitive play people would quickly learn to take advantage of this as much as possible.

@Other Recovery stuff
Link is fairly well off if he is knocked quite far and high away, but otherwise if he can't sweetspot a hook shot there is a limit to what he can do to safely grab the ledge. Also the fact that he is combo food makes it easy to put him off the stage. Having a bomb helps this a lot, but I think you are very much over-estimating just how often you have a bomb handy, and if you pull bombs so much that you are not overestimating then you are leaving yourself open to a lot of aggression.

To sum everything up (as this is my last post on this subject), when I say that Link doesn't have any safe options from ledge, I don't mean that he cannot possibly regain the stage. What I'm stating is that simply, Link is at an extreme positional disadvantage and the chances of him recovering without taking some kind of loss is fairly slim. The chances reduce further against skilled opponents and will likely further increase as we climb up the meta. I predict the same for Marth as well.

Link's movement is very poor, and he is unable to press his advantages or escape from bad situations very well. This game is becoming more and more about taking and maintaining stage control, and Being slow is a huge disadvantage for that, as you cannot occupy the space you need to as well as other characters. Link also doesn't have the ability to hold the area he takes well because his OoS options are bad. If you are stuck in shield as Link, you just have to hope that your opponent makes a mistake. It is unlikely that your opponent is unable to cover all of his options on reaction as you can't wavedash out so well like Marth can. Often Link has to give up space in order to pursue a projectile game against his opponent, but as many options as that opens for Link in the short term, he loses options in the long term due to the fact that he has less stage to allow him to fall back on.

Most of Link's attacks are just terrible on shield, so contrary to your statement that he can shield poke... I really wouldn't recommend that. Link's ground game is also not very good as his ground moves are not fast enough to be used in neutral very well, and once again he is limited in his grab game due to the hookshot. His fair isn't a terrible approach, but you aren't positive on shield and I would gander that a lot of characters won't be too stifled by that. Nair is in a similar boat. Even if you can cross-up well with it, assuming that is safe (I really doubt it), you still have to put yourself inside your opponent's threatened area to do it which is inherently risky. In general if you are committing to an aerial as your main means of approach then you open up other problems. Being in the air is where a large portion of the cast wants you to be, so by using aerials as your main approach outside of projectiles, you are doing a lot of work for your opponent. Link doesn't have shines and other nifty options to cover his landings, so he is quite vulnerable to a myriad of things.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I was about to write a post, but found out it would just be repeating what I have said already, we simply disagree at some points, probably stuff you haven't experienced as Link is not a common character. I think Link can be evolved, you think he peaked way ago. I still can't see the ceiling and I play him and have played him for a long time, I still find new stuff to use.