Is Link Viable?

[MookieRah]

I don't think Link has peaked, I'm sure there are things one can do better with him than currently; however, you cannot get around his weaknesses, and they are many and affect him greatly. I also think that his weaknesses collectively prevent Link from being able to compensate for all of them. I don't think a character with poor movement AND poor escapes can ever be great.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't think link has peaked, nor do i think it matters. the character is not viable anyway.

don't feel bad, captain falcon isn't viable either and the CF players struggle with it way more than you guys do.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Hey, who said I feel bad? There is a reason I act delusional to you, it's cause I feel great in my confidence in my character.

 

[SAUS]

I think there is more to applying shield pressure than looking at frame advantage for each move. Just because you have 2 more frames than me when I do move X doesn't mean you can get away from me super easily or hit me before I can hit you again. Link's biggest weapons are his bomb and boomerang. They add so much to the character that, I believe, is very hard to understand from reading numbers. Did you know that if you drop a bomb on someone's shield, it will bounce, covering their jump option, any slower option that requires them to stay put (sometimes even a grab) and then come down and hit their shield again? You can also catch the bomb and throw it if their option was to run away.

In the Marth matchup, I find the boomerang to be exceptionally powerful. Marth doesn't have a sex kick or anything that leaves a lingering hitbox that allows him to just run through boomerangs (similar to samus missiles). If you shield it, it comes back and I can throw it again. If you dodge it, and find that window to get in for a grab or something, then you have my returning boomerang to deal with, or for me to work with. This happens in many matchups and probably more often than people realise.

Pulling a bomb is slow, but you can drop that thing and it will hit as quickly as a shine. Another prime time to be jumped on and forced to shield is when you go for a bomb. Luckily, you have the bomb by the time you are shielding in this situation.

This doesn't mean you are never trapped in your shield without something to help you out, and Link's out-of-shield options do indeed suck, so there still is that. It's just that I find it doesn't actually happen that often. However, the big thing here is that when it does happen, it can mean you are dead.

I think Link's recovery from off stage is very good, but his from-the-ledge options are pretty weak. If you count that as part of the recovery (I personally do not, but I think some people do, which is fine) then I'd say his recover is only mediocre. So that is fine to say that he doesn't have a great recovery game.

As for hax dashing, I've been looking into it a bit. I feel like it is at least decent, and if they are spaced away like you describe MookieRah, then I don't think they will be able to hit you. Otherwise, you can cross them up or have some more options. I think Link's main weakness from the edge is that most of his aerials aren't safe even on hit so you can't do very much when the opponent is at low damage or if they are not in the right position.

I want to say that I don't think Link is viable at the highest level of play currently, but I do think he has a ton of potential that no one has fully grasped yet.

 

[cjugs]

I dont agree with cjugs at all. The better me and my crew gets, the less the character choice matters. If it is Link you want to play, cause you feel at home with his moveset, then it is Link you should play. You will feel completely destroyed sometimes and it feels like there is no way around some stuff, when this happens, noone can help you find the answer, cause chances are you will be the only Link. So far though, in my experience, there is always some way around it.

For example, I was sure that if a fox can do perfect waveshines, Link cannot win, there is no way to avoid the shine. But then I got the advice to SDI the opposite direction, behind fox, it works like a charm and the best part is that it lets you counter attack.

What kind if counter attack other than run away fox can still do anything before you can but yes that is the only thing you can do is SDI. Ok if you disagree u are disagreeing with the tier list and the matchup chart are u not? My point is the better the people on your crew get with better characters the less and less you will win for example I've never seen GERM take a set off SS bob money or zelgodis when he used link why because they were all familiar with the matchup and they played better characters. Duh the more u play the better you'll get with any character but unless you are playing matchups that are slightly evenish or even just bad like mid tier down and maybe a good falco player u could stand but if you have a fox sheik falcon in ur crew and they get GOOD like actually good not win a match or two at locals good but good good get out of pools at a big tourny good you are fighting a losing battle and are nearly doomed to be 4th place in the crew based on character u play. And in case germ reads this ( hey he gets on here on occasion) I used u as an example not saying u haven't taken a set off ur crew members just saying I haven't seen it.

 

[cjugs]

I don't think

I think there is more to applying shield pressure than looking at frame advantage for each move. Just because you have 2 more frames than me when I do move X doesn't mean you can get away from me super easily or hit me before I can hit you again. Link's biggest weapons are his bomb and boomerang. They add so much to the character that, I believe, is very hard to understand from reading numbers. Did you know that if you drop a bomb on someone's shield, it will bounce, covering their jump option, any slower option that requires them to stay put (sometimes even a grab) and then come down and hit their shield again? You can also catch the bomb and throw it if their option was to run away.

In the Marth matchup, I find the boomerang to be exceptionally powerful. Marth doesn't have a sex kick or anything that leaves a lingering hitbox that allows him to just run through boomerangs (similar to samus missiles). If you shield it, it comes back and I can throw it again. If you dodge it, and find that window to get in for a grab or something, then you have my returning boomerang to deal with, or for me to work with. This happens in many matchups and probably more often than people realise.

Pulling a bomb is slow, but you can drop that thing and it will hit as quickly as a shine. Another prime time to be jumped on and forced to shield is when you go for a bomb. Luckily, you have the bomb by the time you are shielding in this situation.

This doesn't mean you are never trapped in your shield without something to help you out, and Link's out-of-shield options do indeed suck, so there still is that. It's just that I find it doesn't actually happen that often. However, the big thing here is that when it does happen, it can mean you are dead.

I think Link's recovery from off stage is very good, but his from-the-ledge options are pretty weak. If you count that as part of the recovery (I personally do not, but I think some people do, which is fine) then I'd say his recover is only mediocre. So that is fine to say that he doesn't have a great recovery game.

As for hax dashing, I've been looking into it a bit. I feel like it is at least decent, and if they are spaced away like you describe MookieRah, then I don't think they will be able to hit you. Otherwise, you can cross them up or have some more options. I think Link's main weakness from the edge is that most of his aerials aren't safe even on hit so you can't do very much when the opponent is at low damage or if they are not in the right position.

I want to say that I don't think Link is viable at the highest level of play currently, but I do think he has a ton of potential that no one has fully grasped yet.

this was a good ending I agree with. Yes he has not peaked but no character in this game has there's always something a new trick here or there so he has much more room to grow but I don't think any amount of growth will make the fox sheik and falcon falco matchup any better I think he can beat any character in the game other than those at top level. I must say for HDL to say marth is a matchup that cp is smart that matchup must be bad I have almost no xp in that mu

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Just remembered something, Hack is a retired Swedish player that can and will play everything but IC and Bowser, here he almost beats Ice in for Kirby "impossible" match-ups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3Z0ecchYc

Skill and Match-Up knowledge > Character choice and Match-Up ratios, and that by a lot. That's what I think.

 

[SAUS]

Just remembered something, Hack is a retired Swedish player that can and will play everything but IC and Bowser, here he almost beats Ice in for Kirby "impossible" match-ups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3Z0ecchYc

Skill and Match-Up knowledge > Character choice and Match-Up ratios, and that by a lot. That's what I think.

He's viable to an extent. Of course skill and match-up knowledge play a huge part, but the big thing is when you hit the brick wall that is the best players in the world. When I say I don't think Link is viable, I mean that I don't think someone can take him to number one (and consistently remain number one). If he cannot be #1, then he is not viable in this sense.

I don't think

this was a good ending I agree with. Yes he has not peaked but no character in this game has there's always something a new trick here or there so he has much more room to grow but I don't think any amount of growth will make the fox sheik and falcon falco matchup any better I think he can beat any character in the game other than those at top level. I must say for HDL to say marth is a matchup that cp is smart that matchup must be bad I have almost no xp in that mu

What I mean to say is that I think Link has more potential to be explored than other characters that have been explored for many, many years. Look at Pikachu (AXE) for instance - he jumped very far on the tier list when people realised how good he could be. I think it is somewhat similar for Link. He'd go up the tier list most likely, but would probably still have too many bad matchups to really put a dent in the meta game.

EDIT:
Also, if I recall correctly, the 2013 tier list was done based off of votes. That really doesn't show anything for potential in characters. Everyone who doesn't believe Link has more to him (basically almost everyone) will have voted him pretty low on essentially no basis (not like they've tried to learn him). Disagreeing with the tier list is fine for a character that no one plays. If no one plays him, how do you know if he is in the right spot? This is what I was trying to get at with the AXE example.

 

[MookieRah]

veryone who doesn't believe Link has more to him (basically almost everyone) will have voted him pretty low on essentially no basis (not like they've tried to learn him). Disagreeing with the tier list is fine for a character that no one plays. If no one plays him, how do you know if he is in the right spot? This is what I was trying to get at with the AXE example.

I don't like the assumption that people who put Link low on the list were ignorant. Also, what evidence is there to show for Link's potential? Who has been winning with Link, or making top 10 at major national tournaments lately? I don't see why we need to bring in people's anecdotal evidence towards Link's *potential* goodness and raise him higher than what the current meta places him at.

There is a reason why Link is low. Yes, I'm sure there is more to him than people give him credit, but I'm sure there is still more to Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, ICs, Falcon, Jiggs, and etc as well.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Link is right where he should be in the tier list, can't see him swap places with that many characters above him. This does not mean he utterly suck though, as I think the game is more well-balanced than most others seem to think.

 

[MookieRah]

Link is right where he should be in the tier list, can't see him swap places with that many characters above him. This does not mean he utterly suck though, as I think the game is more well-balanced than most others seem to think.

Contrary to what others might think from my posts in this thread, I very much agree with this statement. However, I think Link gets screwed over more than most because of his crappy movement options, inability to deal with people applying shield pressure on him, and lastly (while not a major factor) how easy it is to combo him in relation to most of the cast in melee at almost every skill level.

People keep bringing up Axe and Pikachu as an example of showing that low tiers are just not "as developed." While it is true that Pika clearly had more potential than people have given him/her credit, I think most of what allows Pikachu to perform so well in the hands of a good player is because he is quite fast, and has lots of good movement options. Same goes with Taj and Mewtwo. Mewtwo has some clear faults that prevent him from being high tier, but he has possibly the best overall movement suite of any character. These characteristics allow a masterful Mewtwo or Pika player to pick when to engage their opponent more often and helps cover their characters' weaknesses. Link can't really do this, he pretty much has to engage his opponent at all times because once he is forced to shield he will likely take beating.

I will preface this last statement with this. Lootic plays the most badass and beautiful Link I have ever seen played and even though I haven't really looked around, I would bet money that he is the best Link player that exists right now. That said, a perfect example of what I have said can be found in the set that was shown on the Beauty stream. Once his opponent (I think it was Calle W a Falco main, but I can't remember exactly) realised that a shielded Link was a freebie, it was all over. It didn't matter how well Lootic played outside of shielding (which was amazing) he could not overcome this flaw in Link's character design. If Link had a means to not be pinned down while shielding, I think Lootic would have won the set (and I dare say he would have won quite definitively too).

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Haha stop the flattering, in that set I was overachieving up until I failed at the last stock in the last match. I don't feel like it was Link's fault though, I know a lot of stuff I could've done better in that set. I know I lack in edgeguarding, with better edgeguarding I could've won. I think other Links still have a lot of skills I lack. I have some ideas for how to handle shield pressure, but I haven't incorporated them yet.

My set vs CW can be found here at 38:00 :
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/492648741

 

[MookieRah]

Hmm, that one set I watched didn't look like what I remembered. Perhaps you played another Falco or a Fox in brackets later Lootic?

 

[cjugs]

Contrary to what others might think from my posts in this thread, I very much agree with this statement. However, I think Link gets screwed over more than most because of his crappy movement options, inability to deal with people applying shield pressure on him, and lastly (while not a major factor) how easy it is to combo him in relation to most of the cast in melee at almost every skill level.

People keep bringing up Axe and Pikachu as an example of showing that low tiers are just not "as developed." While it is true that Pika clearly had more potential than people have given him/her credit, I think most of what allows Pikachu to perform so well in the hands of a good player is because he is quite fast, and has lots of good movement options. Same goes with Taj and Mewtwo. Mewtwo has some clear faults that prevent him from being high tier, but he has possibly the best overall movement suite of any character. These characteristics allow a masterful Mewtwo or Pika player to pick when to engage their opponent more often and helps cover their characters' weaknesses. Link can't really do this, he pretty much has to engage his opponent at all times because once he is forced to shield he will likely take beating.

I will preface this last statement with this. Lootic plays the most badass and beautiful Link I have ever seen played and even though I haven't really looked around, I would bet money that he is the best Link player that exists right now. That said, a perfect example of what I have said can be found in the set that was shown on the Beauty stream. Once his opponent (I think it was Calle W a Falco main, but I can't remember exactly) realised that a shielded Link was a freebie, it was all over. It didn't matter how well Lootic played outside of shielding (which was amazing) he could not overcome this flaw in Link's character design. If Link had a means to not be pinned down while shielding, I think Lootic would have won the set (and I dare say he would have won quite definitively too).

Links spot in the tier list is where it should be for example ok let's skip top tiers and high tiers because that is obvious doc Ganon pika samus luigi and Mario link definetly does not deserve to be above not in that order btw lol. Ylink just recently went above which I also believe to be true because he's so much faster in this game speed is everything. You don't have to be the absolute fastest but you can't be one of the slowest links versatility combining ability recovery projectiles and upb that keeps him above DK mewtwo Roy yoshi Zelda he shouldn't lose his spot to any of them but he won't gain a spot or shouldn't anyway. Idk why I quoted mookierah lol I guess cuz I agreed with him

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Hmm, that one set I watched didn't look like what I remembered. Perhaps you played another Falco or a Fox in brackets later Lootic?

Not on stream. But I played MikeHaggar before that and I played Smakis after that, both played falco.

Smakis went IC after first match, and that's a matchup where I need to learn shield drops,

 

[SAUS]

People keep bringing up Axe and Pikachu as an example of showing that low tiers are just not "as developed." While it is true that Pika clearly had more potential than people have given him/her credit, I think most of what allows Pikachu to perform so well in the hands of a good player is because he is quite fast, and has lots of good movement options. Same goes with Taj and Mewtwo. Mewtwo has some clear faults that prevent him from being high tier, but he has possibly the best overall movement suite of any character. These characteristics allow a masterful Mewtwo or Pika player to pick when to engage their opponent more often and helps cover their characters' weaknesses. Link can't really do this, he pretty much has to engage his opponent at all times because once he is forced to shield he will likely take beating.

I do not intend to use the AXE+pikachu example as proof that ALL the low tiers have potential. I just mean that there is at least a chance, and if anyone has it, it'd be Link and/or Young Link that push into mid tier. I think they could be pushed into it if people played them more and explored them more.

Link definitely struggles with his shield options, but I do not think he has to engage at all times, and I do not think it is over once he has to shield. With a bomb, his shield options are great. With a returning boomerang, he at least has a bit to work with. There are times when you are just completely screwed with no bomb and no time to get one, but there are many hopeless times for many characters that don't make them bad. The main part is how often they get into those situations and how often Link can put other characters into those situations.

I still don't think he's viable at the highest level of play, but I believe people underrate him.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Of course Link is viable!
Look at the history of Melee Tier lists for one.
In everyone he is either at the the very top of or near the top of low. And it is normally considered everyone in mid tier and up is tourney viable. Heck, in early lists he is middle tier- Untill people learned how to combo better because of the greater understanding of Melee's physics and discovery of certain advanced techniques- that's when he started to drop.

BUT his matchups are not bad at all compared to the high and middle tiers above him- He heavily counters Peach!
He is even with Marth, Doc, and Puff. He has the advantage against Luigi, Pika, DK, Ganon and even the ice chumps. It is debatable with his Samus and Mario matchups but I don't think they are too out of his favor. It is widely considered his only bad matchups are the space animals and Sheik. But it is not that tough to deal with because since most people play with characters you should already know the matchup. Just play to Links strengths here.

Link is character that has atleast one option for everything thrown at him. Like a slow jack of all trades type, His only weaknesses are poor mobility and laggy ends on moves.

 

[SAUS]

His out-of-shield options are still weak. I am trying to learn shield dropping because I believe it will open up Link to a whole new level. Shield drop up-air will be very strong I think.

I think he does also have a rough matchup against captain falcon, but I have to evaluate it I think.. I have to play the falcon in my area more often... I'm finding Marth is actually a little bit of a rough matchup. Maybe it's just cause my friend knows what he's doing against me, but the newer, more grounded Marth gives me some trouble. I think I just have to adapt my play style to Marth's a little more.

If you consider mid tier and up to be tourney viable, then I think you could consider him viable, but I don't fully consider them viable. I think someone could still get quite far with Link though.

 

[MookieRah]

The marth matchup is rough because Marth beats the crap out of Link. I love Link players, because they are so easy to lock down with Marth. There is very little a Link player can do against a solid Marth that doesn't overextend and plays it safe (aka the newer grounded Marth you mentioned).

I think a lot of the lower tiered characters perform well at lower to mid levels (most become stellar at punishing mistakes, hell that was 90% of what made my old M2 good), but when you get to the higher levels of play when opponents make fewer and lesser mistakes, you begin to realise just how badly their weaknesses prevent them from doing well.

Also, mid tier is not something most consider viable. The top 7 character idea is a better one to follow by, although I think there are more viable characters than that (although only a few more really).

 

[FooltheFlames]

The marth matchup is rough because Marth beats the crap out of Link. I love Link players, because they are so easy to lock down with Marth. There is very little a Link player can do against a solid Marth that doesn't overextend and plays it safe (aka the newer grounded Marth you mentioned).

I think a lot of the lower tiered characters perform well at lower to mid levels (most become stellar at punishing mistakes, hell that was 90% of what made my old M2 good), but when you get to the higher levels of play when opponents make fewer and lesser mistakes, you begin to realise just how badly their weaknesses prevent them from doing well.

Also, mid tier is not something most consider viable. The top 7 character idea is a better one to follow by, although I think there are more viable characters than that (although only a few more really).

After playing some more Marths I have to take back what I said about Link and Marth being even. Marth definitely has the advantage here but, it's not too bad if you keep switching between campy Link and aggressive Link seamlessly. Just try and be the more unpredictable player (and thus better player) and you can wear him down. But at the same time a safe Marth who makes little to no mistakes can be a nightmare for Link players!
I was also wrong about the Samus matchup; Samus ***** Link all day. With A better projectile game and mobility Link stands little to no chance against a competent Samus player...
A great Pika, DK or one of the Marios can be real tough too but that applies to nearly every character in the hands of a master smasher.

I don't think a character needs to be in the top 8 or so to be considered viable though. As long as that character can can either counter or have decent matchups against those top ranked characters why would it matter how high they rank on tier list that changes periodically anyway? That's why I still believe Link can be tourney viable if you work hard at it!

 

[SAUS]

After playing some more Marths I have to take back what I said about Link and Marth being even. Marth definitely has the advantage here but, it's not too bad if you keep switching between campy Link and aggressive Link seamlessly. Just try and be the more unpredictable player (and thus better player) and you can wear him down. But at the same time a safe Marth who makes little to no mistakes can be a nightmare for Link players!
I was also wrong about the Samus matchup; Samus ***** Link all day. With A better projectile game and mobility Link stands little to no chance against a competent Samus player...
A great Pika, DK or one of the Marios can be real tough too but that applies to nearly every character in the hands of a master smasher.

I don't think a character needs to be in the top 8 or so to be considered viable though. As long as that character can can either counter or have decent matchups against those top ranked characters why would it matter how high they rank on tier list that changes periodically anyway? That's why I still believe Link can be tourney viable if you work hard at it!

I've actually found samus to be a very easy matchup. You can nair her missiles and they literally just go away. Having angled projectiles gives you the upper hand while camping because you can evade a missile while throwing a projectile at the same time. Samus is really slow in the air, so once you have her there, you can juggle her for a very long time with up-airs. That's at least how I see it.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I've actually found samus to be a very easy matchup. You can nair her missiles and they literally just go away. Having angled projectiles gives you the upper hand while camping because you can evade a missile while throwing a projectile at the same time. Samus is really slow in the air, so once you have her there, you can juggle her for a very long time with up-airs. That's at least how I see it.

You make a great point- Long live Link's Uair!
But I'm talking a matchup against a very tech savvy Samus player; playing one on a stage like pokemon stadium or battlefield(which good samus mains will always pick to counter you) for instance makes them very hard to even approach safely if they play to her strengths. Sure, you can nair one of her missles but with the existence of the platforms you will already have another coming at you; maybe before you can even cancel the Nair! Not too mention if shes already packing a fully charged beam then good bye. Even so, I know of one great Samus player who baits me with missles, knowing I'll try to either evade and throw a projectile of my own or cancel it with nair just to rush right up to my face for an easy grab.
Samus is slow in the air but we both know ol' Lank aint much better; thank God she's pretty floaty though. Every tough battle I have with a samus envolves trying the whole match to bait her too with my own projectiles just to get her into that coveted prone position~
If you go with Final Destination as a counter pick, that defintiely boost your chances; only then is the matchup even I think.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

To me, Marth is one of my favorite-matchups, mostly because Links OoS game actually becomes good, I hate Fox, IC and Shiek instead lol, my keep out-game is not good enough.

 

[SAUS]

You make a great point- Long live Link's Uair!
But I'm talking a matchup against a very tech savvy Samus player; playing one on a stage like pokemon stadium or battlefield(which good samus mains will always pick to counter you) for instance makes them very hard to even approach safely if they play to her strengths. Sure, you can nair one of her missles but with the existence of the platforms you will already have another coming at you; maybe before you can even cancel the Nair! Not too mention if shes already packing a fully charged beam then good bye. Even so, I know of one great Samus player who baits me with missles, knowing I'll try to either evade and throw a projectile of my own or cancel it with nair just to rush right up to my face for an easy grab.
Samus is slow in the air but we both know ol' Lank aint much better; thank God she's pretty floaty though. Every tough battle I have with a samus envolves trying the whole match to bait her too with my own projectiles just to get her into that coveted prone position~
If you go with Final Destination as a counter pick, that defintiely boost your chances; only then is the matchup even I think.

Fair enough. No one in my area plays samus anymore, so I really haven't played the matchup in quite a while. I just know that I've never had troubles with a samus. I find Link's sword attacks beat most of her close range stuff and Link's projectiles are just better for a range spamming fight.

To me, Marth is one of my favorite-matchups, mostly because Links OoS game actually becomes good, I hate Fox, IC and Shiek instead lol, my keep out-game is not good enough.

I am still on the fence about Marth. Fox and Shiek are definitely Link's worst mathups. I think I lose to captain falcon harder than ICs, but there is only 1 ICs player in my area and I think, other than him, I've only faced 1 ICs in tournament. So maybe it's just that I've fought more captain falcons

 

[Oskurito]

He's not THAT bad but he gets outclassed by many other characters, GERM was amazing back in the day tho

 

[Zodiac]

i don't think link has peaked, nor do i think it matters. the character is not viable anyway.

don't feel bad, captain falcon isn't viable either and the CF players struggle with it way more than you guys do.

No they don't. Literally. Enough. Said.

 

[Corona]

Is Link viable?

In a world where Isai proved Link to be viable (at least on Hyrule Castle) in Smash 64, a mysterious Yoshi main can crack top 8 on any given day after two years on the scene, and there is the will of a true champion who will seriously do what it takes to meet the challenge?

Oh, last but not least, we are a rare breed. Not many know the MU anymore... I think he is viable.

I dare anyone to tell me with 100% confidence that it is impossible. Any takers?

 

[1MachGO]

I feel like Sheik, Fox, Marth, and Falco (in order of terrible-ness) wreck Link too hard for him to realistically get top 32 at a international/global tournament. The rest of his MUs are probably winnable assuming skill and MU knowledge is equal (Falcon might be dubious though).

If you get a good bracket and are at a skill level similar to that of a god or top level player, Link could probably crack top 64 with a good bracket at a large scale tournament.

 

[EddyBearr]

I think "viable" stops happening with Samus, Luigi, and Doc, beyond Niche circumstances like Axe or unexpectedly good matchups (Young Link). So, no, not really.

 

[1MachGO]

I think "viable" stops happening with Samus, Luigi, and Doc, beyond Niche circumstances like Axe or unexpectedly good matchups (Young Link). So, no, not really.

I'm confused by this wording. Are you saying Pikachu is worse than Samus, Luigi, and Doc?

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm confused by this wording. Are you saying Pikachu is worse than Samus, Luigi, and Doc?

Of course.

 

[1MachGO]

Of course.

Doc? Eh, maybe.

Samus? No.

Luigi? Definitely no.

 

[EddyBearr]

Doc? Eh, maybe.

Samus? No.

Luigi? Definitely no.

They're clearly inherently better because they're all more popular, and that's how metagames develop.

This isn't the thread for this.

 

[1MachGO]

They're clearly inherently better because they're all more popular, and that's how metagames develop.

Arguing that popularity makes a character inherently better is a slippery slope. Ice Climbers are probably less popular than Samus/Doc and Falcon is definitely more popular than Puff. Does this mean Ice Climbers are worse than Samus and Falcon is better than Puff? Please.

This isn't the thread for this.

This is true so I won't discuss it [here] any further.