Is Fox's reign over?

[HdTyvek]

watching all the streams on smash 4 not many people are playing fox, and when they do, they dont seem to do much.

is fox bad? is the reign of 20xx dead? anyone have thoughts or info?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Are we forgetting that Brawl already caused the downfall?

 

[Dott]

Why would he be an high tier character when he has been and still s the top tier i-mean-best-freaking-character of all time in Melee. It's time to another characters to shine...

 

[HdTyvek]

Are we forgetting that Brawl already caused the downfall?

i never watched competitive brawl, nore have i looked at brawl sense it was released lol.

news to me but guess i should feel bad for posting this sense its old news =[ lol

 

[HdTyvek]

Why would he be an high tier character when he has been and still s the top tier i-mean-best-freaking-character of all time in Melee. It's time to another characters to shine...

i see what you did there

 

[NeonBurrito]

From what I've heard / read, Fox has been nerfed, including nerfs like all of his aerials having lots of landing lag and having his moves being weaker. Also, compared to lots of other characters, Fox just seems dull and weak in comparison.

20XX will live on in our hearts Gamecubes.

 

[HdTyvek]

not to mention the laser nerfs. that neutral game/free % is gone, all adding up to poor fox being low tier i think =[

RIP 20XX, we will always remember

 

[Gamecube]

It's not just Fox either, Marth has also been nerfed

 

[HdTyvek]

It's not just Fox either, Marth has also been nerfed

he was, but i dont think anywhere near as hard as fox. marth still has a few good things going for him, everything about fox just seems bad now

 

[roymustang1990-]

Seems to early to make this judgement,but okay voice your thoughts.

 

[HdTyvek]

Seems to early to make this judgement,but okay voice your thoughts.

exactly, not looking for facts and people pointing out saying "yes this character is bad" just looking to get a variety of opinions on the game and the characters sense im just going off of streamers. wish i could get my hands on the game myself but oh well!

 

[Weeman]

Fox is actually pretty good in this game, much better than brawl, he has some great combos and overall speed, not to mention one of the best recoveries in the game, since he can act out of his side-B now.
I mean it's not Melee Fox, but he is definitely good.
Also his Up Smash nerf form the E3 build is gone, is fast and powerful now .

 

[HdTyvek]

i knew his recovery was really good now with the side b change. didnt know the E3 nerf to up smash is gone, thats pretty big news

 

[Artero]

I'm definitely still giving Fox a chance once I get my hands on the full game! Though also already falling in love with the way Mario plays in this Smash.

 

[TR3G | Informant]

Never lose faith in your hero. That is only something cowards do.

 

[Ffamran]

Are we forgetting that Brawl already caused the downfall?

More like Fox was one of the most balanced character in that game compared to under-powered characters and overpowered characters. He wasn't good or bad.

 

[Oort]

I think what they're kind of doing is defining playstyles a little more clearly--in melee fox was kind of just good at everything, and here he's still the jack of all trades but just no longer the master of each individual trade. I feel like particular aspects of fox's play have been fragmented to other characters and then he's just kind of in the middle and not as good at any one thing as he used to be. Like, they don't want a great rushdown character who also has a strong camping game and so on, so they're balancing things a little more with fox while leaving him versatile and letting other characters inhabit the extremes.

 

[Rhus]

Fox is historically a very hard character to play. I highly doubt anyone is using him to any reasonable amount as of now.

Not to mention that Fox's actual fanbase is fairly small. He was only popular in Melee because of his strength, and once Brawl nerfed him to high-mid tier, there were only a very select few people whom still played him. It's not surprising that you hardly see him on streams because he is a character only really dedicated people are attached to.

 

[dna.noodle]

My impression is that 3DS Fox's overall movement is quick and he has strong attacks, but that against non-CPU opponents the landing lag after his aerials and his laser make him less interesting to play than he used to be, even in Brawl. I haven't been playing against people, so I can't say anything definitive, but what I liked about him in Melee was basically the lack of downtime between moves and his constant amazing mobility. It seems that without cancels, he's just boring to me even if people do find he works at some level.

 

[Tino]

I can't say for sure how good or bad Fox has become but from all the gameplay videos I've seen, he's still an impressive character. And seeing as he's one of my favorite characters, I definitely gonna give him a shot.

 

[HdTyvek]

Fox is historically a very hard character to play. I highly doubt anyone is using him to any reasonable amount as of now.

Not to mention that Fox's actual fanbase is fairly small. He was only popular in Melee because of his strength, and once Brawl nerfed him to high-mid tier, there were only a very select few people whom still played him. It's not surprising that you hardly see him on streams because he is a character only really dedicated people are attached to.

I never thought of it this way. I know fox is very hard to play well at a high level in melee, but i never thought about the fanbase. Seeing as how all of the popular characters are getting attention on streams makes sense now.

 

[HdTyvek]

I think what they're kind of doing is defining playstyles a little more clearly--in melee fox was kind of just good at everything, and here he's still the jack of all trades but just no longer the master of each individual trade. I feel like particular aspects of fox's play have been fragmented to other characters and then he's just kind of in the middle and not as good at any one thing as he used to be. Like, they don't want a great rushdown character who also has a strong camping game and so on, so they're balancing things a little more with fox while leaving him versatile and letting other characters inhabit the extremes.

This makes alot of sense. will be interesting to see how people pull apart the characters as time goes on, but i do agree with you

 

[HVDooD]

Both Fox/Falco look simply awful, saw them get beaten by WTF characters lik ROB and Duck Hunt Dog all the time.
Mew2king said they blow hard in this game and Wolf is cut... seems like Biasurai start developing this game with the idea
to kill Star Fox in favor of Kid Icarus.

 

[HdTyvek]

lets be real here guys, fox is really bad becuase he doesnt "ata" when he spot dodges

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Both Fox/Falco look simply awful, saw them get beaten by WTF characters lik ROB and Duck Hunt Dog all the time.
Mew2king said they blow hard in this game and Wolf is cut... seems like Biasurai start developing this game with the idea
to kill Star Fox in favor of Kid Icarus.

Yeah, because obviously Kid Icarus's content in Smash is tied to Fox and Falco's overall performance. That is TOTALLY how it works. /sarcasm

 

[Rhus]

Both Fox/Falco look simply awful, saw them get beaten by WTF characters lik ROB and Duck Hunt Dog all the time.
Mew2king said they blow hard in this game and Wolf is cut... seems like Biasurai start developing this game with the idea
to kill Star Fox in favor of Kid Icarus.

I don't think it's logical to make any sort of judgement on them quite yet. Even someone like M2K can't really have a solid idea of how good they are.

Falco and Fox still have faster attack speed than pretty much the whole cast, and both have incredible Jabs. Falco's lasers are still good, just not godly space control anymore. Fox still has one of the best dash speeds and now has a great recovery, tied with autocancelled aerials and great usage of pivot tilts.

I still think it's too early to call. That said, I don't plan on ditching Fox if he's low tier. I will always main him as I am part of his dedicated fan base.

 

[RPK]

I want to say Fox's reign is over, but as a Fox main from Brawl, and from someone who was inches away from getting ranked in northern california. I dont want to say its over yet. In Brawl he was actually an extremely strong character who I actually think couldve been the cream of the crop. Top tier, and maybe even best character in the game with even match ups against Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong, Olimar, and EVEN Meta Knight. The only thing that held him back in Brawl were characters like Pikachu who had ridiculous chaingrabs on him that made him hard to pick up as he can get hard countered. However with the removal of chaingrabs, from what has been revealed so far, that alone has buffed him. He can't get chaingrabbed any more, and thus can go on the offensive. He doesn't have to play scared and can no go balls deep without fear.

He still has incredibly damaging combos which include converting to up tilt strings into grabs, or ending it with an upsmash for easy 0-56 combos. This was in BRAWL. With the addition of even MORE hitstun, he's sure to have even more devastating combos than his Brawl counterpart, and his Brawl counterpart had horrifying combos if you knew what to do. On top of that, with the addition of lag being added to airdodging, it is no longer safe for characters to airdodge out of an utilt strings so its easy to keep on the pressure, and to land even more hits. In fact Im positive its going to push past 56. We can probably even get 0-80 or even 0-90% combos with Fox. I'm sure of it.

Despite losing our laser options, his laser shouldnt be what makes him. Plus, there might be techniques to get around the nerfed laser as there are some that Im hoping have trickled in from Brawl. Even so, I dont think we shouldnt rely on the laser anymore, but the pure aggression that can be brought out from this character. He's one of the few characters left in the game with incredibly strong aerials and thus we should play to those strengths. He doesnt have a single aerial that's weak.

A new option that people should consider is his illusion in terms of approaching and should be thought of as more than an added recovery. It's going to be the new thing, I promise. I've already heard whispers from grapevine that there are new techniques involving illusion when it came to Falco as that was the new thing to do. These tricks were done by Tyrant, and M2K who are currently training right now. Just use your guys' heads when thinking about how to apply this move. The combination of not going into a dead fall, and being able to illusion cancel...Just please...Think about it.

On top of this, lets take into account the new blast zones for stages. With some of the stages, characters are living to much higher percents than they were before. Characters would live to higher percents than they did in brawl. However, Fox is still able to kill these characters at what is still considered to be low percent with his Upsmash. While his upsmash definitely wasnt the killer that it was in Brawl, being able to kill characters such as Jigglypuff at 73% with no DI, or Meta Knight at 83% with no DI, by Sm4sh standards, I believe the the new standard is going to be around the 110-120 mark for even the lighter characters. This is with me taking it to the extreme if we have to get the percents that high. However, with Fox, those percents are very very very reachable with the additional hitstun, and his ability to string together long, damaging combos with little effort...I can still say that he is still a killer.

In short...Have faith...Our moment to shine will come

 

[SmashWolf]

I liked Fox in Brawl. Didn't play him on a superhigh level, but he was one of my better characters in it. If Sm4sh Fox is even remotely better, who knows? I doubt he'll be irrelevant to the competitive scene entirely.

 

[RPK]

I know for sure that he's going to be one of my characters. Him and Samus. Also with the rise of Bowser, comes the rise of Fox. Fox vs Bowser back in brawl was a 7-3 in favor of Fox. Because of Bowser's size, Fox was easily able to get a full rotation of Sh. Fair for the full 23% as well as follow up which actually was 2 more fairs for about 65-68% after move deterioration. In addition to Bowser standing now, Fox will definitely be able to get a full rotation off on him, and with the added hitstun, we can do even more to him. Maybe even sh. fair -> full jump fair -> double jump dair because of the added hitstun. Or even sh. fair -> full jump dair -> utilt string -> 2 jabs -> buffer crouch -> grab -> pummel -> d.throw/u.throw -> chase. If we can get a follow up off of those that'd be even better. Also spoilers, that's a brawl combo that we were able to do on big characters such as DK, Bowser, ROB ect.

EDIT: ALSO!! ALSO!!! With Smash DI gone, this also means that MULTI HITTING MOVES ARE EVEN MORE EFFECTIVE!!! That means you can't smash DI out of Dair, or Fair like you were able to in previous versions. Even Uair cant be DI'd out of anymore which guarantees the 2nd hit will always connect now!!!

 

[7Blue]

Fox's reign was over ever since he started looking like a chipmunk

 

[Djent]

Dunno why people are giving the OP a hard time. Fox was an excellent character in Brawl, and would've been top 10 easily if not for ICs and Pikachu.

Certain aspects of his game may have been nerfed, but he has an amazing recovery now, and there's enough left to his old jank that he will still be good.

 

[HdTyvek]

Dunno why people are giving the OP a hard time. Fox was an excellent character in Brawl, and would've been top 10 easily if not for ICs and Pikachu.

Certain aspects of his game may have been nerfed, but he has an amazing recovery now, and there's enough left to his old jank that he will still be good.

i wouldnt say they are giving me a hard time. they are giving me information on a game (brawl) that i didnt play and chipping in ona question that i asked. i appreciate everything people are posting and glad to see different opinions!

 

[Rhus]

@ HdTyvek Yes, I wasn't giving you a hard time and I hope I didn't come across as rude.

I'm having a hard time making any sort of judgement on him because I've yet to see anyone play him actively or figure him out.

 

[HdTyvek]

@ HdTyvek Yes, I wasn't giving you a hard time and I hope I didn't come across as rude.

I'm having a hard time making any sort of judgement on him because I've yet to see anyone play him actively or figure him out.

not at all friend. like i said above, im glad people are disagreeing with me and others, i like the debate and opinions. if everyone thought the same thing we could miss out on something! keep disagreeing with me

 

[Takehiko]

I think it's best to remember that it's still early in the game and the people on the streams are just looking for Day 1 things that seem to be broken/give advantage. I think after more and more people gain this game and put in their time with the characters that they enjoy then it will probably get to the point of him having a possible come back. Who knows how the metagame will evolve when people get in the lab and start working on characters and branching away from how they're used to playing in the older game.

 

[link2702]

Fox was only top tier in melee. Brawl he was nerfed hard. very vocal casual players who had no clue why fox was considered the best in melee, nor how drastic the changes made to him in brawl were, are likely the reason he got nerfed again.

 

[Weeman]

Fox was only top tier in melee. Brawl he was nerfed hard. very vocal casual players who had no clue why fox was considered the best in melee, nor how drastic the changes made to him in brawl were, are likely the reason he got nerfed again.

What? He got buffed from Brawl.

 

[link2702]

What? He got buffed from Brawl.

not from what i've heard and seen.

about the only "buff" he got was his side b didn't put him in free fall when used in the air.

 

[Ffamran]

What? He got buffed from Brawl.

Along with pretty much everyone else so his buffs might have been cancelled out. Same with Falco?

 

[Weeman]

not from what i've heard and seen.

about the only "buff" he got was his side b didn't put him in free fall when used in the air.

Well he's definitely decent, he's got decent power, and really good speed.
Again he's not Melee fox but he's not bad at all, and the only nerf he got compared to Brawl Fox are the lasers.
But his aerials do put some work, and the nerf to his Up smash in the e3 demo is gone, it's still really powerful and fast.