Is Falcon really that bad or is it the physics that make him bad?

[Ayaz18]

I hear many people saying Falcon's bottom tier because he can't combo or isn't as quick, but i think the real matter for Falcon's inability to combo lies in Brawls physics, i mean sure his knee is dis-located now and his spike is a little awkward but other than that he hasn't changed much other that his 180punch. And now I ask is Captain Falcon bad, or do Brawl's physics not compliment Falcon, and to expand does Falcon deserve bottom tier because of the physics, or should they be neglected to give Falcon what he truely deserves.........low tier?

 

[Grunt]

his knee isn't dislocated. in melee, it just comsumed his entire body.

 

[Ayaz18]

lol very true

 

[KeyKid19]

Falcon is bad because his best two moves in Melee are horrid now (Knee, Dair). If he had both of those still he'd be mid tier imo. Seriously all the physics intricacies aside, Falcon's main problem is that his previous trump cards are now nothing but filler. Sure, the physics hurts him, but it hurts everyone else too (though not as much imo). It really all comes down to this:

No setups for Dair or Knee anymore.
Dair and Knee both are much harder to use.
Dair and Knee both aren't as powerful.

That's really why Falcon is low/bottom tier now.

 

[Astinos]

Even small changes, like the height of his short hop has made him worse. It makes it hard to connect any aerial moves, and when you try to fast fall them to connect it's just too slow and predictable.

 

[Ayaz18]

Even small changes, like the height of his short hop has made him worse. It makes it hard to connect any aerial moves, and when you try to fast fall them to connect it's just too slow and predictable.

wouldn't that include the physics of low gravity?

 

[DMStudios]

The main reason he's "bad," is his priority. He lost most of what he had in Melee. The only move that has priority in the air it seems, is his up air. And since his initial dash animation is so long, you can't dash-shield-grab as easily as some of the other characters. Most of his combos have to start with grabs now

 

[Tenki]

IMO it's kinda both.

Take a look at Samus, 'nerfed' for no apparent reason- generally has moves with low knockback.

But then again, her projectiles allow her to rack up alot of damage while spacing so it's easier for her other moves to KO.

What was her 'nerf' was just a 'hint' toward a certain kind if gameplay.

Does Falcon have such hints?
It's kinda hard to tell. Combo characters have low-knockback moves with quick execution times and little ending lag, or moves that easily chain into each other (eg, Sonic's spindash combos).

But what does he have instead?
Increased knockback on attacks, a harder time hitting with his most powerful non-pawnch aerial (Knee)...

I'm not really sure what kind of 'hint' this is supposed to be giving to Falcon players. It doesn't seem to be pointing toward 'combo'.

Characters with high knockback moves tend to be defensive/retaliatory, like Ganondorf, Zelda, or Ike. Sonic, a character with high movement speed, good recovery, and low priority, makes good for gimping and punishing. Falcon's kind of a mix of... both, but I'm not really sure what signals that's supposed to be sending lol.

Defensive chaser/interruptor?

I could just be overinterpreting :[

Has anyone worked with moves that were useless/rarely used in Melee? It seems like moves that were useless before are useful to their characters now (Marth side-B, Sheik needles, Ganondorf >B... among others), and moves that were used a bit too often were generally 'nerfed'.

 

[salaboB]

but I'm not really sure what signals that's supposed to be sending lol..

The same signals that Falcon himself sends.

Especially if he's in his pink outfit.

 

[Ayato]

wouldn't that include the physics of low gravity?

Gravity doesn't technically exist in Brawl, or Melee for that matter. Each character has a sort of "specific gravity" (gravity referring to the constant downward force on an airborne character), as illustrated by the vastly different fall times from character to character. The different weights which cause more or less knockback can also be explained loosely as a factor of different inertias from character to character. Loosely. Physics don't apply to smash in the typical sense, beyond obvious things like double jump and fire/swords not instantly killing people.

That said, I personally feel that it's more proper to say that Falcon's short hop height was increased (character trait), though it is true that his specific gravity was also decreased relative to the last game. But here, we're arguing about the gray area between "character mechanics" and "game mechanics." It's difficult to differentiate between the two at this level.

As far as the game's new "physics engine," the decreased hitstun across the board is what gimps Falcon the most and does merit him a spot close to the bottom tier (if not actually in it). He simply cannot (currently, I have hope) compete without combo ability; his move set doesn't allow this.

As far as "character mechanics" go, his decreased speed makes for awkward followups and less consistency as well. So there are a variety of contributing factors to Falcon's recent downturn. You can't just blame it on any one thing.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Its a little bit of both. His priority is god awful. Like if your gonna nerf a character, at least make his priority above average. His range sucks, he has no reliable kill moves, and worst of all, his two trump cards got screwed over by the makers of brawl. Sakurai ******* pissed me off by giving falcon nothing to stand out in. The only thing he does have going for him is his great dash speed, and decent recovery, but that just doesn't cut it.

I still main Falcon because i have loved him ever since the first Smash Bros. game. I will always main falcon no matter what happens t him in the future.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

The only thing he does have going for him is his great dash speed, and decent recovery, but that just doesn't cut it.

You forgot about the Falcon Punch, you pathetic failure.

 

[Sephiroth27]

I won't say "he can't combo anymore" because that's generally true for everyone.

-Horrible hitboxes
-Bad approach game

There you have it. Those are the sole reasons as to why Falcon is bad in Brawl.

But I still love you Falcon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's mostly because he's bad.

His kill moves are all hella telegraphed, and the few attacks he has that aren't telegraphed can't kill easily. He also has taken a major nerf in terms of priority and grab range. Those factors hurt him more than the lack of any combos in Brawl.

@Keykid. N-air > D-air in Melee imo. That got nerfed a lot too.

N-air was Falcon's best approach in Melee, and had the least startup and ending lag overall of all of his aerials.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

learn to use up B more.

But yeah, priority, no projectiles, etc.

 

[Ayaz18]

learn to use up B more.

But yeah, priority, no projectiles, etc.

as much priority ip B has it still leaves falcon helpless if it fail's to connect, which is why I tend to stay away from that moves less doing the "YES" combo or stage spiking

 

[Ayaz18]

sorry still in msn mode lol

 

[WastingPenguins]

Has anyone worked with moves that were useless/rarely used in Melee? It seems like moves that were useless before are useful to their characters now (Marth side-B, Sheik needles, Ganondorf >B... among others)

Sheik's needles were buffed? They were useless in Melee? Riiiiiight.

 

[KeyKid19]

A2ZOMG:

True, very true. Nair did take a hard turn for the worst as well. If I had to prioritize the three moves in terms of which two I would keep "Melee-ized" and which I would let go by the wayside though, I would definitely keep the Knee and Dair. Nair was good but the new Falcon Kick SORT OF makes up for it in a small way. Dair and Knee simply have no replacements at all.

 

[Tenki]

Sheik's needles were buffed? They were useless in Melee? Riiiiiight.

whoops, I was thinking of moves in general that were changed a bit from their Melee forms and a Sheik fight I had came to mind lol.
The lack of hitstun on the current needles is much more disruptive, imo.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Tenki, your thoughts on falcon's "hints" for a playstyle are very interesting. Ima go ponder it some more.

 

[Reaver197]

As far as I can tell, the intended playstyle the developers had in mind was not for singles with no items.

 

[Ayaz18]

As far as I can tell, the intended playstyle the developers had in mind was not for singles with no items.

agreed, falcon is great in doubles (items can go both ways *lol banana trooper knows, jk*) because of of other characters as distractions, it seems easier land knee's and Falcon Punches

 

[Stalfoe]

I use Captain Falcon as a heavy hitter. I also spam Uair a lot, but that's probably because I use Ganondorf. Although those possible hints are interesting, I don't have faith in this game to pop out a new play style for Captain Falcon like a miracle baby, lol.

 

[Ayaz18]

I use Captain Falcon as a heavy hitter. I also spam Uair a lot, but that's probably because I use Ganondorf. Although those possible hints are interesting, I don't have faith in this game to pop out a new play style for Captain Falcon like a miracle baby, lol.

theres a chance that nintendo will us somthing that was hidden that seems not useful, but becomes used in competitive play, which could help falcon make up for his flaws

 

[Ayaz18]

****it that's like thetenth time I forgot some spelling error of grammer error

 

[Reaver197]

****it that's like thetenth time I forgot some spelling error of grammer error

lol

I doubt that we'll find anything now that will magically change how the metagame works, and that magically makes Falcon much better than he is. There just isn't any simple, straight-forward technique to be done that greatly improves his gameplay.

 

[Ayaz18]

lol

I doubt that we'll find anything now that will magically change how the metagame works, and that magically makes Falcon much better than he is. There just isn't any simple, straight-forward technique to be done that greatly improves his gameplay.

yet my friend....................yet

the time will come

 

[Blaze924]

i think da problem is dat we use falcon like hes in melee. basically we should change his play style.n da knee isnt dat bad like some people r saying,u just have 2get used 2 the timing since its been discovered dat the knee is sort of like a sex kick

 

[ant-d]

they need more taunt cancelling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XZF0th5mAc

^^

 

[Dyxnar14]

Falcon is low because he was Nerfed alot. His Knee and Spike arn't High Tier material in Brawl.

 

[Ayaz18]

Falcon is low because he was Nerfed alot. His Knee and Spike arn't High Tier material in Brawl.

yeah but that isn't TOO bad, If the game was a bit faster (and by fast I mean that Falcon could SH an entire stage in one jump) at least Falcon would be able to be aggressive still, In Brawl you kind of Hit a guy way far, only to chase him at the speed of a fat guy

 

[Noodlehead]

... only to chase him at the speed of a fat guy

lol,ayaz you have to check "knees around the world" ive had an idea for your idea.there should be 6 people in the video you were talknig about.everyone would get a color.then in the credits post who was which color.it will be a great video. Do you think this is a good idea?
if it is, someone already took the costume you use, pink and white.
Wogrim if you also think this is a good idea then you should be in it.

 

[Amide]

It's the physics that make Falcon bad, it's hard to land aerials or combos with him in Brawl. Not to mention priority. (Falcon Kick into Wario's bite. He'll land right in >_>)

 

[Ayaz18]

...................

****ED IT ALL I HAVE PRECIOUS REPLAY DATA SAVED WITH THE PINK FALCON

but if I must *sigh* i'll take whatever is left

(lol I didn't check that club in a long time)

 

[Noodlehead]

yeah,no one was posting until i said "hmmm.did people stop looking at this group."

 

[Stacey]

He really isn't bad at all, just takes more skill than other charactors. If you actually do know how to play him good then your opponent usually doesn't know how to fight you, giving you a big advantage.

 

[Ayaz18]

He really isn't bad at all, just takes more skill than other charactors. If you actually do know how to play him good then your opponent usually doesn't know how to fight you, giving you a big advantage.

oh really? why don't you try him at a tourny and not get 2 stocked by Snake, MK, IC, or Wario

brawl is heavily tier, and infinite focused

 

[Stacey]

I don't do tournies often, it just means I'm going to get spammed and camped against and thats no fun, when I do I usually win or place top 5. The tiers are more like a spamabilty and glitch contest IMO.

I've found 2 infinites myself already so I know how evil they are, the only infinites I respect are the ice climbers chain grab (Only a little bit) and one I found that isn't going to get posted for a LONG time.

 

[Ayaz18]

I don't do tournies often, it just means I'm going to get spammed and camped against and thats no fun, when I do I usually win or place top 5. The tiers are more like a spamabilty and glitch contest IMO.

I've found 2 infinites myself already so I know how evil they are, the only infinites I respect are the ice climbers chain grab (Only a little bit) and one I found that isn't going to get posted for a LONG time.

who do you play to get top 5, respected brawlers right?

and with who