Is a Melee like game the way to go?

[Vkrm]

The only time melee is a hard game is when you're up against someone who's better then you. The controls are the same.

 

[Ben Holt]

From my ~15 person group, only a few can even tell the difference between the games and which one they like more comes down to which game has Mewtwo or Ike in it.

Turns out, casuals don't really care what the game plays like so like as they can F-smash Bowser Jr. or Little Mac or whatever.

That's the point I've been trying to get across.
So a faster paced game like Melee would please everyone.
And btw, **** tripping.

 

[finalark]

I love tripping.

Oh wait, no I don't.

 

[Ben Holt]

At least you admit that part of Brawl was BS.

 

[Lukingordex]

The only time melee is a hard game is when you're up against someone who's better then you.

 

[finalark]

At least you admit that part of Brawl was BS.

You have no idea. I was genuinely hoping that someone would find an exploit to behind tripping to make some sort of crazy advanced technique but lolnope.

 

[Ben Holt]

You have no idea. I was genuinely hoping that someone would find an exploit to behind tripping to make some sort of crazy advanced technique but lolnope.

Kick 'em while they're down!

 

[Jabejazz]

You make it sound like it's obvious, but it really isn't. A lot of players aren't attracted to the competitive aspect of Melee, because it's too fast for them, and they don't want to spend time learning wavedashing/L-Canceling. Which is understandable to some extend.

I mean, if you plan on playing competitively, you're gonna spend lots of time playing anyway, so learning advanced techniques is bound to happen.

 

[Big-Cat]

That can apply to any multiplayer game. Any game that seems overwhelming to them is going to give them that response. People, in general, want to put the least amount of effort when it comes to learning how to be good at a game (or anything for that matter). Chances are you have some people that find even Brawl hard

Competitive or not, a lot of people have this warped idea how a game is supposed to be played. I get hate mail in other fighting games because I don't just rush into their face or I use throws. Those kinds of ideals shouldn't be taken into account because they're a bunch of scrubs.

 

[| Big D |]

Tripping is just a means to get new players to dash less. In Brawl you have so many more options when you walk. You have access to all your tilts/smash attacks as well as the ability to change your speed/direction on an instant. It's much harder to read someone who is walking toward you as opposed to someone who is dashing toward you. Dashing really limits what you can do and is generally a bad idea. Tripping really just makes new players better by encouraging them to walk.

 

[Vkrm]

Lol apologetics. you put more thought into justifying tripping than sakurai himself. Dashing and walking both had their place in melee. What was the logic in making running less viable?

 

[| Big D |]

Dashing was already less viable with the lack of wave dashing and not being able to cancel it with a crouch. Walking speeds have improved making it more viable. The lack of wavedash stems from the new airdodge, and the new airdodge makes it so you don't have the ability to change where you're going to land at the last second. In Brawl there are more mind games involved as well as more interaction between players in the air. Being able to run into any smash attack where it could cover almost every landing option on most characters while dealing a huge punishment is a no no.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't see anything that sticks out as wrong with your post but I have the same problem with as I did before. Both brawl and melee having different moving mechanics and I don't see how brawl's is better then melee's based on what's in your post. I would say melee's dynamics actually emphasis more strategy because without tripping running is better than walking in only a handful of circumstances. I will still need walking if I need to adjust myself in a combo make sure i get that tipper fsmash or if i need to hit with a softer hit box. Compare with brawl, running is greatly nerfed on top of the added chance of tripping. It's mad obvious how much better walking is, no real decisions to be made.

 

[| Big D |]

But how is walking to adjust a combo strategy? It's a tool to continue the combo, there is a limit to it's uses, and generally limits the player player interaction. In Brawl walking allows for more player vs player interactions. There aren't clear best options and there aren't scenarios where x move will always be the best option. That's why having access to more options is better, as long as there is a mix of defensive options as well. While there are still plenty of uses for dashing, it is best to limit its use. The improvement on walking and the nerf on dashing allows for more player interaction on the ground, but most importantly in the air.

 

[NeeBee]

////////::

 

[Vkrm]

Melee still has a greater range of options considering walking has the same advantages in both game and running wasn't toned down at all in an attempt to walking the obvious best choice. They didn't feel the need to cripple running in melee. Instead they gave both running and walking different benefits and it up to the player to choose the the option that suits the circumstances. And about the strategy added to comboing, you should look up what melee players call combo DI. Being able to airdodge midhitstun kind of make it irrelevant in brawl but you used to have to trick your opponent if you wanted to convert a grab into a clean kill.

 

[Kantrip]

Big D knows what's up

 

[| Big D |]

Walking speeds were extremely slow and were near useless because of the ability to shffl and shield pressure. You could cancel your dash in melee with a wavedash/crouch into your standard attacks. Walking doesn't have near the amount of usage in Brawl.

Combo DI can still be covered, it's once again just do X in Y scenario, it's a skill with a low capacity for improving upon it.

 

[NeeBee]

////////::

 

[Asa]

I agree with BigD. Tripping helps new players become accustomed to the optimal movement techniques in Brawl. It discourages bad habits as well as creating good ones.

 

[SKidd]

Big D is ****ing idiot.

 

[| Big D |]

I assure you Skidd if you took note of the lessons tripping has been trying to teach us for so long, you could really step up your game.

 

[Irisz]

You know you want the D
Tripping is crucial to newer players, as it shows them how rushing in isn't always the best option

Brawl is a slower game, involving lots of mind work rather then stringing combos together. With tripping, I've saved my butt multiple times whereas if I had went to to attempt to attack, I probably would have been punished in some way

 

[Alphicans]

BigD is a fraud

 

[| Big D |]

pivot grab beats nado if you're bad

 

[Crisis]

big d knows what he is talking about

 

[john!]

bigd is a poser, this is the REAL bigd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya5xmU4yhe8

 

[Jason!]

Big D is right, tripping is good for competitive brawl.

 

[| Big D |]

I assure you I am the real deal.

 

[Vkrm]

You know you want the D
Tripping is crucial to newer players, as it shows them how rushing in isn't always the best option

Brawl is a slower game, involving lots of mind work rather then stringing combos together. With tripping, I've saved my butt multiple times whereas if I had went to to attempt to attack, I probably would have been punished in some way

How is brawl anymore focused on mindwork then melee? You know, besides having an entire minute of planky ledge jankness to plan an approach.

 

[finalark]

Tripping is just a means to get new players to dash less. In Brawl you have so many more options when you walk. You have access to all your tilts/smash attacks as well as the ability to change your speed/direction on an instant. It's much harder to read someone who is walking toward you as opposed to someone who is dashing toward you. Dashing really limits what you can do and is generally a bad idea. Tripping really just makes new players better by encouraging them to walk.

My mind has just been blown to kingdom come.

Big D for post of the millennium.

 

[Big-Cat]

Tripping is just a means to get new players to dash less. In Brawl you have so many more options when you walk. You have access to all your tilts/smash attacks as well as the ability to change your speed/direction on an instant. It's much harder to read someone who is walking toward you as opposed to someone who is dashing toward you. Dashing really limits what you can do and is generally a bad idea. Tripping really just makes new players better by encouraging them to walk.

This is probably the best justification for random tripping I've ever read. Despite this, I feel random tripping as an countermeasure is a horrible, horrible idea.

 

[FalKoopa]

Big D has a point. Seriously, this is the first time I heard of a potential benefit for tripping.

 

[Jabejazz]

Tripping is just a means to get new players to dash less. In Brawl you have so many more options when you walk. You have access to all your tilts/smash attacks as well as the ability to change your speed/direction on an instant. It's much harder to read someone who is walking toward you as opposed to someone who is dashing toward you. Dashing really limits what you can do and is generally a bad idea. Tripping really just makes new players better by encouraging them to walk.

That's hilarious and well thought out. Still, I can't say this post is all that silly.

While it is harder to read a walking opponent because of his many options, it's hard to read an opponent that's already in your face because of his amazing dash speed. Also, dash-dancing is an amazing mind game tool when properly used in Melee. As much as dashing limits the options you have, dashing itself IS an option. Outright killing an option via RNG is silly and cannot be excused.

That being said, being a DDD player, I almost never dash because of how pitiful it is.

 

[finalark]

From now on whenever I play Brawl I'm only going to walk. And everyone is going to be like "BOI WHAT CHO DOIN'!?" and I'll be like "BIG D'S NEW META *******!"

 

[| Big D |]

That's hilarious and well thought out. Still, I can't say this post is all that silly.

While it is harder to read a walking opponent because of his many options, it's hard to read an opponent that's already in your face because of his amazing dash speed. Also, dash-dancing is an amazing mind game tool when properly used in Melee. As much as dashing limits the options you have, dashing itself IS an option. Outright killing an option via RNG is silly and cannot be excused.

That being said, being a DDD player, I almost never dash because of how pitiful it is.

Believe it or not I also play Dedede. When people dash they are limited to dash attack, aerials, and shield options. I find most people tend to run and shield, it's a habit that gets punished hard at top level play. However it's also a really good burst option, assuming it's used from one dash length away, which you should be walking to get there.

As Dedede, noticing what options people do from a dash is important. You can also force habits. Next time you see someone dash at you try ftilting them, and do that until they start to run and shield or start jumping. If you are afraid of the spotdodge, inhale works really well to cover running and shielding as well as run and spotdodge. Otherwise be confident in your read and dash grab them. Bair will zone out most characters in the air.

 

[Big-Cat]

Believe it or not I also play Dedede. When people dash they are limited to dash attack, aerials, and shield options. I find most people tend to run and shield, it's a habit that gets punished hard at top level play. However it's also a really good burst option, assuming it's used from one dash length away, which you should be walking to get there.

This then probably tell us that running and walking were never balanced out to begin with. I've often wondered since I went to Capcom fighters and other games what Smash would be like had Moonwalking become an actual mechanic. Then there remains how that should be implemented.

 

[Jabejazz]

When people dash they are limited to dash attack, aerials, and shield options.

But the fact of the matter is that dashing itself is an option you always have, which is rendered extremely risky due to pratfalling. Whether it's a good option or not in the situation your find yourself in/the character you have is not my point.

Next time you see someone dash at you try ftilting them

Baiting Ftilts is fairly easy as well. Then again, it'd be easier baiting them via some dash-dancing, which isn't extremely reliable.

Otherwise be confident in your read and dash grab them.

And then I trip.

Also I don't know why this conversation transformed into Dedede match tips. I was merely saying TripleD's dash is abysmal and walking for this character in particular is nearly always optimal.

 

[| Big D |]

Point was to show that reading options from a dash is much easier compared to reading them from a walk. Ftilt is easily beatable, it's beaten by the options I've listed. The point of the ftilt is to bait those options. Dedede is one of the best characters imo at punishing people out of their dash.

 

[El Duderino]

I think we can all agree walking is underutilized with new players in all Smash games. The problem I have with this argument, aside from the obvious pitfalls of tripping, is that I don't find it a particularly effective way of encouraging players to walk either.

It's not positively reinforcing walking so much as it's negatively reinforcing dashing, which to a larger extent encourages players to spend less time on the ground instead. With that in mind, tripping is simply not the right answer to help players to use all the options they have available.