Is a Melee like game the way to go?

[El Duderino]

Brawl without tripping, which would not have the accelerated effect on development. Bad players may not analyze the benefits of walking, but tripping does discourage dashing.

The other nerfs to dashing do just as much if not more to more discourage constant use. It's time to stop presenting this infrequent deterrent as some grand game changer.

 

[| Big D |]

Of course the negative effects of dashing will discourage players, but it isn't as obvious as tripping. Tripping gives another reason not to dash. Some players won't notice the negative effects of dashing or will simply disregard them. Tripping highlights the fact that walking is better. Whether the negative effects of dashing influence players to the same extent or not is moot because tripping only adds to the motivation, not replaces it. It simply makes players more likely to realize the benefits of walking.

 

[El Duderino]

Of course the negative effects of dashing will discourage players, but it isn't as obvious as tripping.

Don't know about that, the nerfs to pivoting while dashing are pretty damn obvious to anyone coming from 64 or Melee. You learn pretty quick about the lesser degree of control over the character when in a dashing state. Brawl doesn't need tripping to convey that to players.

 

[| Big D |]

And once again I'll say that it improves the rate at which players come to those same conclusions drastically. In many cases it helps new players come to terms with how to improve over a much shorter time period and thus don't quit because of getting discouraged.

 

[El Duderino]

You do realize we are both talking about stuff players can pick up on in the first day, right?

 

[| Big D |]

Anyone can realize anything on the first day. It all depends on what they re exposed to and what they notice. Playing a lot on your own against friends/cpus can cause many bad habits. It's hard to shake those without realizing them for yourself. Tripping gives players the tools to realize for themselves and make them much more likely to pick up on said habits. Not to mention giving them the exposure to what is necessary to succeed.

 

[Mr.C]

Brawl was a complete and utter failure to the people that played this series competitively. The game makes zero sense. They literally removed everything that made Melee such a free-moving, highly-skilled, innovative competitive e-sports title. SSB4 will garbage if it follows in the footsteps of Brawl.

 

[El Duderino]

Anyone can realize anything on the first day. It all depends on what they re exposed to and what they notice. Playing a lot on your own against friends/cpus can cause many bad habits. It's hard to shake those without realizing them for yourself. Tripping gives players the tools to realize for themselves and make them much more likely to pick up on said habits. Not to mention giving them the exposure to what is necessary to succeed.

My point was even without tripping, dashing's nerfs in Brawl are among the most immediately noticeable differences for anyone who has played a Smash game before. It already sets the stage for Brawl's competitive play.

Yes, old habits do die hard, but tripping is doubling down on an already covered, very simple concept that players don't need to be constantly reminded of. I wish it ended there, but tripping attempts it in the most negative way possible, the software equivalent of temporarily unplugging your controller. Terrible, terrible game design. It is a guaranteed way to agitate players and turn many away before any actual learning begins.

 

[Vkrm]

What evidence do you have that tripping accelerated the metagame? And why do you think tripping was the final straw to get people to walk? When the two are both reasonable responses to a given scenario anyone who analyzes the situation will decide to walk without factoring in how likely they are to trip. Tripping is completely unnecessary.

 

[| Big D |]

Tripping just makes people favour walking. It guides players of all types on the path to becoming a top level player. There are factors influencing players to see the benefits of walking, but those means are slow. I've been saying that tripping speeds up the process. I already listed the proof of accelerating the meta game, just look at Apex 2013. Why tripping is so effective is because it conditions the player no matter who they are playing and doesn't let them fall back into old habits.

The proof is everywhere, we owe a lot to tripping, you just have to look around.

 

[Vkrm]

But tripping doesn't guide people towards walking. Walking being the better choice does that already. The only thing tripping does is cost you damage and games once you've already outplayed the opponent.

 

[| Big D |]

Tripping does guide people towards walking. By discouraging dashing it pushes walking as the primary form of movement on the ground. That much is clear.

 

[Vkrm]

Walking would still be much better then dashing even if they took out tripping. And it would still be obvious as **** how lousy dashing is.

 

[El Duderino]

Not to mention how can a fluke occurrence like tripping really fast track anything?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well in a typical fighting game, having speed is a pretty big advantage. It's the reason why people would rather dash then walk, because it helps with approaching and combos. It's also why in the competitive scene people use techniques like L-cancelling and Wavedashing in order to have greater mobility that would be denied otherwise.

Basically, speed is good.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Tripping didn't push me towards walking, it pushed me to jumping everywhere. Chance of getting hit? I airdodge. Maybe that's just me, though.

 

[| Big D |]

Speed is the reason why people gravitate towards dashing, and it is much more optimal to dash in melee because of the ability to cancel it with a crouch or wave dash, in Brawl that is not the case. Tripping helps people come to those conclusions much faster, perhaps they might have opened peoples' eyes who never would have figured it out on their own. Tripping gives all players a helping hand in reaching the next level.

 

[foshio]

I hope the next game allows some sort of cancel out of dash. It makes the game so much faster and more intense

 

[| Big D |]

Well that may or may not be good depending on characters landing options. It wouldn't be good for brawl as running speeds are generally faster than character's movement in the air. That means being able to run where a character is going to land and then charging a smash attack. The main reason for this is not being able to change your momentum from an air dodge, meaning that a smash attack will out space most aerials and will beat the airdodge, forcing use of their up B and putting them in lag to be punished. The inability co cancel a dash means there will be more confrontations in the air and a wider variety of scenarios with a less skewed RPS game will be prevalent. Meaning a higher capacity to improve.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Well that may or may not be good depending on characters landing options. It wouldn't be good for brawl as running speeds are generally faster than character's movement in the air. That means being able to run where a character is going to land and then charging a smash attack. The main reason for this is not being able to change your momentum from an air dodge, meaning that a smash attack will out space most aerials and will beat the airdodge, forcing use of their up B and putting them in lag to be punished. The inability co cancel a dash means there will be more confrontations in the air and a wider variety of scenarios with a less skewed RPS game will be prevalent. Meaning a higher capacity to improve.

Well, I'm a casual, I'm just explaining what tripping made me consider instead of walking. And since I use Kirby and Mr. Game and Watch most often, I have an easy way to get out of the air without consequence. Therefore, tripping is completely irrelevant, since I never encounter it through use of multiple jumps and/or an easy way to get out of the sky.

 

[El Duderino]

That is my takeaway as well. Walking is not the natural reaction to tripping Big D assumes it is, getting off the ground is.

 

[FalKoopa]

I didn't expect the tripping discussion to stretch so long. >_>

Spoiler

Tripping should have its own thread in Brawl Competitive Discussion sub-forum now.

 

[Kink-Link5]

-Initial Dash can not be interrupted by shields
-The period to dash dance is shortened to the point that the technique offers no degree of stage presence
-The run loop can not be interrupted by a crouch, and severely limits the number of things that can interrupt it overall.
-Momentum from a dash is not carried over into a jump
-Walking initial speed is drastically buffed over the whole cast

These things are not enough to encourage walking over running in most situations? Dashes are meant to cover further distances quicker, and not much else. With all the nerfs to the technique to make it do only thus, is a further deterrent as tripping conducive at all? Is it not enough that the technique is already wholly situational and dedicated, that it is necessary to give the few times you want to use it a chance to royally **** you over?

Dashing and Walking can easily coexist and work off one another without one having plain cut 83% disadvantages over the other.

 

[Shadow Huan]

lol brawl's dash physics ignore one of the basic laws of motion XD

 

[El Duderino]

Kink-Link5, the summary of Big D's argument here is that any kind of extra push to condition players to adopt the ideal way of playing should be celebrated. It will be his justification for ignoring virtually everything you say. Good luck trying to convince him tripping negatively botches a fundamental means of movement in the game and further throws the balance between approach options out of wack.

 

[| Big D |]

Obviously the advantages of walking will influence people to walk. However a lot of the time when playing CPUs or friends who aren't as good, those advantages aren't clear. From then on when you face someone who is better than you, once again those advantages aren't clear because you aren't used to it. That is what makes tripping so great as it will condition you to walk no matter who you are playing against. This not only makes you aware of the benefits of walking but conditions you to fight the urge to dash and incorporate it a lot more in your game. Now imagine this happening in every region, at every local, the rate of which players develop increase considerably all because tripping had been incorporated. Tripping really is the misunderstood hero of Brawl.

 

[FalKoopa]

Tripping really is the misunderstood hero of Brawl.

What did I just read? (O_O);

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Obviously the advantages of walking will influence people to walk. However a lot of the time when playing CPUs or friends who aren't as good, those advantages aren't clear. From then on when you face someone who is better than you, once again those advantages aren't clear because you aren't used to it. That is what makes tripping so great as it will condition you to walk no matter who you are playing against. This not only makes you aware of the benefits of walking but conditions you to fight the urge to dash and incorporate it a lot more in your game. Now imagine this happening in every region, at every local, the rate of which players develop increase considerably all because tripping had been incorporated. Tripping really is the misunderstood hero of Brawl.

You should imagine that a lot of people didn't see the benefits of walking, but instead, the benefits of jumping, making pretty much everything you've just said irrelevant. Not everyone learns the same way.

 

[Alphicans]

^lol *****

 

[| Big D |]

There will be people who jump and there will be people who continue to dash. Point is there will still be quite a large amount of people who learn the benefits of walking because of tripping. Jumping gets hard countered by walking anyways because of character's anti air options being accessible while moving, so even those people will see first hand the benefits of walking, and begin walking themselves. It is a multiplier effect. Tripping is the invisible hand that pushes the meta game forward.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Really? Because I haven't seen it. I haven't started walking. I dash and I jump. If I trip, I push B and get an attack out of it.

 

[| Big D |]

I just told you there will be people who don't take in the lessons, but there will be many people who will.

Are you going to start walking now that the benefits are known to you from reading this thread?

 

[El Duderino]

The benefits of walking do not make tripping above criticism. You are treating it as a sacred cow.

 

[| Big D |]

The benefits of walking are more than enough to overlook it's setbacks. Nothing is above criticism but tripping has transformed the entire Brawl's Meta for the better and will continue to do so as long as a competitive scene exists. We would not be where we are today without tripping.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

The benefits of walking are more than enough to overlook it's setbacks. Nothing is above criticism but tripping has transformed the entire Brawl's Meta for the better and will continue to do so as long as a competitive scene exists. We would not be where we are today without tripping.

You mean furious at the very concept, minus a very small minority?

 

[Jabejazz]

We would not be where we are today without tripping.

We would. The metagame would've evolved just as fast. A good player doesn't need to get slapped in the face everytime he initiates a dash to realize you have less options when dashing. It's not the logical followup. You stop dashing constantly because you fear of tripping, not because "hey, the game is sending me a message here". Hardly anyone saw pratfalling that way. For the very casual player that doesn't do research or test things in practice mode, MAYBE it's an incentive to stop dashing all the time.

Your are simply deforming facts to suit your theory.

 

[El Duderino]

The benefits of walking are more than enough to overlook it's setbacks.

Mind explaining what you think those setbacks are and why you feel they are so trivial? If you haven't noticed, there is a laundry list of setbacks people have presented in this thread. I would love to see you start to address those rather than just restating your opinion that tripping has transformed the game.

 

[El Duderino]

Actually let me help you out here.

Tripping is bad because it:

- unnecessarily restricts one of the primary forms of movement in the game.
- rips away the player's control over the character, pulling them temporarily out of the experience.
- takes an already weak movement option and makes it worse.
- pigeonholes expert players to adopt playstyles that avoid dashing.
- disrupts the most basic purpose of dashing, getting you somewhere on the ground faster.
- can artificially tweak the outcome of a match.
- breaks balance between movement choices, heavily favoring the other options.
- negatively re-enforces player behavior in the least constructive way.
- discourages player creativity that incorporates all the options available.
- perhaps most importantly, aggravates a ton of players.

Tripping is good because:

- Walking is a better option than dashing in Brawl. Tripping can help reinstate that.

 

[StriCNYN3]

The benefits of walking are more than enough to overlook it's setbacks. Nothing is above criticism but *walking* has transformed the entire Brawl's Meta for the better and will continue to do so as long as a competitive scene exists. We would not be where we are today without *walking*.

*Fixed*

Pretty much most of the post you make shows you beating around the bush with you more in line defending walking rather than just tripping itself, but for some reason, you just like throwing in the word "tripping" in place of walking with some extra notation like "underestimated" mixed in here and there just for the sake of your argument. I'm not well versed in Brawl (and please correct me where I'm wrong) but I think it's safe to say that tripping doesn't evolve the meta game but only detriments players for using a specific mechanic used rightfully so at sporadic times within a match. Please tell me how that's striving for the better. Walking itself seems to fit the bill a little better in your case, not tripping.

As far as I can tell, you have some warped mindset where tripping is some subliminal message the devs intentionally made to teach players how to play the game more efficiently (while conveniently excluding the fact there was an already botched viable movement in mind). I mean, this is your logic: sacrificing an already working and non broken movement mechanic (dashing) in favor of a random control-disabling mechanic hated by virtually every sane Smash fan (tripping) instead of just making all movement options viable. Does that sound right to you? That sounds like what Smash 4 needs to be headed to you?

Tripping has just done more harm than good to even be considered as an advancement. Your argument just screams like a text book example of an apologists .

 

[Tee ay eye]

walking is amazing in melee too if you know how to do it right. it sacrifices dynamic mobility for more controlled movement where you have more options available to you.

just because dashing sucks **** in brawl doesn't mean that it improved the game by forcing people to walk