Meta Is 3 stock better than 2?

[ぱみゅ]

Is there a reason for using 3o5 partway through a 2o3 tournament?

As the bracket advances, players of similar skill may be facing each other, not necessarily at a Finals set.
Using Bo5 helps minimize outlier results and get the better performing player to advance.
At this point, the line of when to use Bo5 is arbitrary. Some tournaments use top 3, 4, 8, or even 16. Heck, I remember a certain tournament where the top 6 was a Round Robin full of Bo5 sets, all were streamed so it lasted for HOURS.

 

[dansal]

Sounds unfair to the rest of the tournament players. I guess its for the best since longer matches between the top players makes for better spectating in addition to the increased accuracy.

 

[Shouxiao]

As the bracket advances, players of similar skill may be facing each other, not necessarily at a Finals set.
Using Bo5 helps minimize outlier results and get the better performing player to advance.
At this point, the line of when to use Bo5 is arbitrary. Some tournaments use top 3, 4, 8, or even 16. Heck, I remember a certain tournament where the top 6 was a Round Robin full of Bo5 sets, all were streamed so it lasted for HOURS.

The difference between Top 8 and Pools/Brackets is this.

Pools/Brackets

Many matches go on at once
Only so many are on stream

Top 8
All matches are streamed.
All matches are done 1 by 1.

Also Round Robin by its nature takes significantly longer than a double elimination tournament.

If 3 out of 5 is done part way through a tournament then a lot of time is going to be added(especially for big tournaments). At big fighting game tournaments players can expect to play from morning to night. This is with 2 out of 3(most games use this). If things were 3 out of 5, even middle way through tournaments would likely be from morning to morning.

The only way 3 out of 5 could be done in the middle of a tournament is if an extra day was added. Well Melee did that at Evo 2015(played Friday, Saturday, and Sunday) but still did 2 out 3 until Grand Finals.

More matches adds a lot more time. I think what fighting game tournaments do now in general is for the best unless they want to extend tournaments to be more days for all of their games. Best to just keep best 3 out of 5 until Finals.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bo5 are fine, and I like them (even more than 3 stocks tbh), the problem lies when they want to stream them all so they have to wait until one finishes to begin the other. That's what really slows down a tournament.

 

[Shouxiao]

I am for this ruleset.

Pools/Brackets are 3stock and 8mins
Best 2 out of 3

Top 8 Best 3 out of 5
3 out of 5 for top 8

Average stock length for matches these days seem to be around 60 to 90 seconds. Just look at the frequent Smash 4 tournaments on Twitch. Smash 4 was fast before but patch 1.1.1 really made things faster. Now players can put a lot more pressure on their opponents if they are spacing properly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think you mean STOCKS tend to last 60-90 seconds, it sounds way more feasible than matches.
Now, Bo5 sets with 3 stocks (based on experience, I haven't done the math) last if quick enough about 13-15 minutes and 19 on average. Having it for the whole top 8 sounds like an outrageous amount of time.

 

[Xeze]

I am for this ruleset.

Pools/Brackets are 3stock and 8mins
Best 2 out of 3

Top 8 Best 3 out of 5
3 out of 5 for top 8

Average stock length for matches these days seem to be around 60 to 90 seconds. Just look at the frequent Smash 4 tournaments on Twitch. Smash 4 was fast before but patch 1.1.1 really made things faster. Now players can put a lot more pressure on their opponents if they are spacing properly.

From my experience as a TO, having the whole top 8 being 3 out of 5 with 3 stock is not a good option. Specially if the whole top 8 is to be played on stream. Takes way too much time to complete.

 

[Shouxiao]

From my experience as a TO, having the whole top 8 being 3 out of 5 with 3 stock is not a good option. Specially if the whole top 8 is to be played on stream. Takes way too much time to complete.

Well Best 3 out of 5 can be for Winners and Grand Finals. Should have put best 3 out of 5 for top 8 or Grand Finals like I did in previous post.

Well as far as tournaments go it varies when they use best 3 out of 5. Some do it for all of top 8. Most others only do it for Winners/Grand Finals.

Still I think a 3stock 8min ruleset(2 out of 3) for pools/brackets works well.
For top 8 its depends on the tournament if 3 out of 5 is used for all of top 8 or just Winners/grand finals.

All of Top 8 being 3 out of 5 can certainly be done but things have to be planned to take up more time. Basically if a Smash tournament did 3 out of 5 for top 8 it would be similar to what Street Fighter and Tekken tournaments do. Street Fighter and Tekken tournaments plans for longer top 8.

I think you mean STOCKS tend to last 60-90 seconds, it sounds way more feasible than matches.
Now, Bo5 sets with 3 stocks (based on experience, I haven't done the math) last if quick enough about 13-15 minutes and 19 on average. Having it for the whole top 8 sounds like an outrageous amount of time.

I tend to state things in an odd way in English at times. Still stocks do not last like they did at first. This is due to people finding out their character's technology and patches speeding up the game.

 

[Lukingordex]

In the past, I was on the 3 stocks 8 minutes side, but now i've changed my mind.

With the increase of players in the scene, we have even less time to finish our tournaments, and, at least in my country, we started to have frequently time problems in our tourneys until we changed our ruleset to 2 stocks and 6 minutes.

 

[Shouxiao]

In the past, I was on the 3 stocks 8 minutes side, but now i've changed my mind.

With the increase of players in the scene, we have even less time to finish our tournaments, and, at least in my country, we started to have frequently time problems in our tourneys until we changed our ruleset to 2 stocks and 6 minutes.

Well Smash and the Fighting Game Community in general has grown a lot over few years. Look at EVO for example. Over 2 years the number of entrance in Melee pretty much doubled. The number of entrances in tournaments all over the world has increased by a lot.

The best situation I think is simply to have more tournament setups so that more people can play and get through that matches faster. It may also get to the point where tournament organizers have to use another day for pools/brackets and or simply plan to have longer tournaments due to the increase in people.

Its not the ruleset. Its the number of people that is increasing tournament length. That number of people shall only grow due to the popularity of Twitch.tv, YouTube videos, Smash and the FGC in general.

 

[Ajimi]

I agree with Shouxiao. We shall not make the game worse just because more people wants to play it. As the scene grows more and more, tournaments will one day or another have to cap their number of entrants, add more setups, plan for longer events in advance, etc. If possible I'd like it to be the case before the "norm" reaches 1 stock 2 minutes matches.

Anyway, in my country a TO tried 3s6m at a local, and apparently it went fine (no timeouts). If more people can test it and if it is really viable, it could be a very interesting compromise.

 

[Xeze]

If possible I'd like it to be the case before the "norm" reaches 1 stock 2 minutes matches.

The day this happens is the day I quit Smash 4 singles. At least doubles uses 3 stock.

 

[Shouxiao]

I agree with Shouxiao. We shall not make the game worse just because more people wants to play it. As the scene grows more and more, tournaments will one day or another have to cap their number of entrants, add more setups, plan for longer events in advance, etc. If possible I'd like it to be the case before the "norm" reaches 1 stock 2 minutes matches.

Anyway, in my country a TO tried 3s6m at a local, and apparently it went fine (no timeouts). If more people can test it and if it is really viable, it could be a very interesting compromise.

I hope something is done sooner or later. Many locals are using 3stock 8mins while majors use 2stock and 6mins. Smash is a game where stocks and time needs a good balance. There should be enough stocks to fight things out but a time limit to prevent things from going on.

As for a local if more people are entering then maybe more should contribute to help the event. Maybe people could put in money to buy more stuff for the tournaments so that next time there can be more setups. Maybe more people can bring setups. If too many people enter then capping the number of people that can join could be a last resort.

If time is a problem then a tournament organizer needs to figure out something. Heck what if a scene keeps growing and 2stock 6min tournaments begin to take awhile?

The day this happens is the day I quit Smash 4 singles. At least doubles uses 3 stock.

Smash 4 is currently the only Smash game where the stock and time is different for singles and doubles.

 

[wizrad]

I'm kind of against a timer. If you can't run the clock, why would you camp? You're forced to approach.

 

[SpiritofSpeed]

Smash 4 tournaments should definitely be 3 or 4 stock - 2 stock just doesn't give room for intensity and comebacks in my opinion.

 

[Pyr]

I'm kind of against a timer. If you can't run the clock, why would you camp? You're forced to approach.

Tell that to the nearly hour long game of Smash 64 that occurred because of the lack of timer.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Smash 4 tournaments should definitely be 3 or 4 stock - 2 stock just doesn't give room for intensity and comebacks in my opinion.

What are you talking about? We had many, MANY intense matches (and a moderate amount of comebacks) with this 2-stock meta.

 

[wizrad]

Smash 4's neutral isn't nearly as dangerous as 64's though. You mess up in neutral in 64, you die. You mess up in 4, you take 40%.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Alright, gonna say they truth. As much as I was raving for 3/8, I dunno if it's feasible unless there is a good ratio between setups and participants. For instance, we often run Top 8 smoothly as the people in Top 8 know what they are doing and follow easy and are easy to corral. With pools and early bracket, unless ur on the Peep's case, they will do what they want, when they want and without setups, it just confuses them. In the end, if the TO believes there are enough setups, then sure. Still what gets me is that the much slower game got 3/8.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Yes, but it doesn't matter, because the most influential TOs are just gonna be lazy and selfish and use the ruleset that's most convenient for them under the excuse that 3 stock supposedly runs too long, even though Brawl took longer per stock and that never got to the point where they were forced to lower the stock count, attacking anyone who points that out with the ol' "not a TO what do you know" excuse.

 

[Pyr]

I hate the Brawl comparison. It was different times. We had less viewers and less people playing in the tournaments. Times have changed and adjustments have been made to fit the current times. It's not about "lazy or selfish TOs." It's about recognizing that tournament run time is actually important now.

No, the biggest issue right now is players that act like they're entitled to the world for whatever reason. They think what they want is right, that everyone else is wrong, and then they attack people who are providing them with their outlet for competitive play. This is exactly what Runic has just done.

Because hey... The people who have been doing this stuff for years OBVIOUSLY know less then the random little player that would rather insult, *****, and moan instead of make changes actually happen or prove their theorycraft beyond feels. I'd imagine the random would be really upset if the answer to, "You're a TO. What do you know?" would be, "Everything that comes with years of experience that you do not have."

 

[Runic_SSB]

Pyr , if you're gonna call me out, at least direct your statements at me. If you have something to say to me, just quote me and directly respond to what you have a problem with. I can deal with people disagreeing with me, but not with passive-aggressiveness.

I hate the Brawl comparison. It was different times. We had less viewers and less people playing in the tournaments. Times have changed and adjustments have been made to fit the current times. It's not about "lazy or selfish TOs." It's about recognizing that tournament run time is actually important now.

You might have a point here, but the issue is that they didn't wait to test it and actually see if 3 stock was feasible or not. Apex, EVO and Smash Con instantly settled on a 2 stock ruleset. All of the claims of "3 stock is too long, we can't possibly run it!" were completely baseless, because the game had just come out and there were no large-scale tournaments at that point.

No, the biggest issue right now is players that act like they're entitled to the world for whatever reason. They think what they want is right, that everyone else is wrong, and then they attack people who are providing them with their outlet for competitive play.

I actually don't have any interest in tournaments. I'm a neutral party, whatever they decide to do won't affect me at all. I'm just calling it how I see it, and I see big name TOs putting their own interests before the community's.

This is exactly what Runic has just done. Because hey... The people who have been doing this stuff for years OBVIOUSLY know less then the random little player that would rather insult, *****, and moan instead of make changes actually happen or prove their theorycraft beyond feels. I'd imagine the random would be really upset if the answer to, "You're a TO. What do you know?" would be, "Everything that comes with years of experience that you do not have."

I bet if you wrote that as if you were speaking to me and not to some imaginary audience, your words would've been a lot nicer. But seriously, if you're gonna dedicate half your post to insulting a single person, at least have the balls to say to that person.

Anyway, to the "TOs have experience" argument; same thing as I said before. These rules were made before they could've actually had any definite info, let alone first-hand experience.

 

[Pyr]

You need to stop taking offense for every post disagreeing with you, bro. This isn't Tumblr.

That said, I don't have to clutter a post with a quote if the person I'm speaking to was the last poster. It's silly.

For Apex, Evo, and the like, I can't speak for Apex because I wasn't there, but Evo barely ran on time for Smash 4. Had it been 3 stock, Smash 4 would of ran over other games, and possibly ran over in GF. It was PACKED. 2 stock is simply better for larger tournaments, and larger tournaments are better for game and player exposure. Add (to be kind) 25% more run time to any 2 stock tournament and tell me how well that would go.


Those "baseless" comments aren't baseless because of that. It's only natural 3 stock takes longer. When things run smoothly and efficiently on 2 stock, putting it to 3 and increasing tournament length by a not-insignificant ratio is extremely unattractive. It's also been demonstrated that things like comebacks, learning opponents, and RNG jank (G&W hammer for days) are all within normal levels in 2 stock formats, with the advantage of 3 stock being insignificant. In the few 3 stock tournaments that were held, the data was clear: the time advantage is just better. You do realize 3 stock events have happened, right? That was the default early on.


Now, if you have no interest in tournaments, why do you care so much? Are you just trying to cause trouble? Because it sounds like you are. And saying that a TO chooses 2 stock for time concerns over 3 is selfish? Here's a reality check: Some locals that can grow bigger and better can only do so when time constraints are adhered to. Same thing with regionals. To say that a TO is selfish when they take THEIR time, THEIR money, THEIR reputation, THEIR energy, and put on events FOR THE COMMUNITY, is just, to be blunt, ignorance. They do it for the love of the people and the game. Most don't even make a big profit, if any at all. They gain experience with the community and do it FOR the community.

Coming from the guy that has no interest in tournaments, it's no surprise that you think something this... Idiotic. Strong word, but not meant to be an insult. It's meant to show just how off base you are.


And, as for the last section of your post, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking about the mindset. The one where people choose to see only what they want to see. Take in the stats and info that further their view, and ignore all the rest. It's always the same. I will always wonder why people like you have a victim complex so large that any disagreement is a direct insult. Happens every time. Believe me when I say that, if I want to insult you, I'll do it via PM and get my infraction there.

A TO's experience > your non-tournament caring experience. You're making assumptions that are provably unfounded. That's not a nice thing to do.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think that it might become 3 stock in the future, especially since the game is becoming much faster. However, this depends on how the Metagame progresses.

 

[wizrad]

Do we really need to have internet fights in every thread? This is meant to be a forum for debate, not the schoolyard. This is serious, not like, I don't know, a reality show or Congress or something.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do we really need to have internet fights in every thread? This is meant to be a forum for debate, not the schoolyard. This is serious, not like, I don't know, a reality show or Congress or something.

wait a minute, I thought Congress was a schoolyard... Time to google it...

 

[Runic_SSB]

Pyr You haven't touched my argument about how the Apex/EVO/Smash Con TOs immediately settled on 2 stock and claimed that 3 stock would "take to long" with zero evidence, the one argument you did bring is the same "low timer = faster matches" vs. "low timer = more timeouts" argument that's been argued to death here, and worst of all you just keep slinging ****. I think we're done.

wait a minute, I thought Congress was a schoolyard... Time to google it...

They both have recess.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Now, now, Pyr, let's not be rude please.

I only want to add that the statement of Brawl's stocks lasting more than Smash 4's is false. They last on average less unless they involve Ice Climbers and an opponent camping accordingly.

Also, EVO's TO was reaaaaally worried about time, he was about to use 2s5m because he considered a worst-case scenario where every match went to timeout and was changed only because the players pushed the 2s6m.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Pyr You haven't touched my argument about how the Apex/EVO/Smash Con TOs immediately settled on 2 stock and claimed that 3 stock would "take to long" with zero evidence, the one argument you did bring is the same "low timer = faster matches" vs. "low timer = more timeouts" argument that's been argued to death here, and worst of all you just keep slinging ****. I think we're done.


They both have recess.

There were things to look at. The game is much faster now then it was at Apex, and at Apex you had Dabuz and people camping. This showed that timeouts were a real possibility, and with Campager, I wouldn't want 3 stocks.

I am glad that the TO's decided what they did. It made the game seem faster then it was, and the tournaments would have gone far beyond the time limit if it had been 3 stock 8 minute.

 

[Scribe]

2 stock, 5 or 6 minutes is generally accepted to be easier on TOs. Many people prefer 3 stock, 8 minutes for, and I'd actually push for 3 stock, 7 minutes to make stalling slightly less of an issue. If some future update adds the ability to adjust match length down to 30-second intervals, 3 stock, 7 minutes, 30 seconds for the standard.

However, I've heard many people say that best 3 out of 5 doesn't feel any more rewarding with 3 stocks than 3 stock, best of three, or 2 stock, best of 5, just because of how long the match drags on.

 

[Ajimi]

For Apex, Evo, and the like, I can't speak for Apex because I wasn't there, but Evo barely ran on time for Smash 4. Had it been 3 stock, Smash 4 would of ran over other games, and possibly ran over in GF. It was PACKED. 2 stock is simply better for larger tournaments, and larger tournaments are better for game and player exposure. Add (to be kind) 25% more run time to any 2 stock tournament and tell me how well that would go.

This is false logic. They could very well have planned for 1 stock 3 minutes matches, barely ran on time, and then everybody would have been "see, 2 stocks would have been too long !".

 

[AvengerV]

I would rather just have 2 Stock best of 5.

 

[Shouxiao]

When it came to Evo 2015 for Smash 4 the tournament actually went at a fast pace. Smash 4 finished early on day 2. The games that were played afterwards were not delayed.

Apex 2015 still ran everything but the problem with the venue likely caused delays. It is questionable how things would have went if the building issues from the snowstorm was not a problem. Most likely if the event was 3 days and not condensed I doubt there would have been any issues with tournament time on day 3.

I really do not see why people say 3stock would take too long(especially considering the state of things after all of these patches). Really I think its best for communities and tournament organizers to just have more setups as more people want to enter tournaments. If 2stock takes too long due to growth in a community are people going to reduce the stock and or time?

I do not think at this point tournament time would be an issue with 3stock and 8mins. I think it is also more optimal.

A thing about Smash is there are no rounds. Player A takes damage but also takes a stock from Player B. Sense Smash has no rounds Player B is on their 2nd stock and the damage that Player A took they still have for the 1st stock. One could say that For Glory/2stock is like the best 2 out of 3 rounds for most fighting games. Well it could be similar to some of the newer fighting games I would say.

Games like Killer Instinct and the Naruto Storm 4(come out next year) use a round system where the characters do not reset(recover health and start at middle of stage again). This generally leads to a super short "2nd round".

I think 3stock is better in that players fight it out more and that losing the 1st stock is not as punishing. 3stock also lets players find out more about their opponents.

 

[wizrad]

It really isn't a question anymore. 3 stock is better than 2. The problem is that people think 3 will take too long. Well, let's test it, then. But wait, TOs are too conservative to have sudden, untested change! Why don't we phase it in? Start with 3 stock 3/5 winners and grands. Then expand from there. We just want to know how it goes.

 

[Ajimi]

I already said that, but we are at least two (small) TOs in my country to have tried 3 stocks 6 minutes without problem or timeouts, and I think it's worth testing at a larger scale. Locals won't have any problems adapting, and majors always plan for the worst case scenario, which is already 6 minutes in 2 stocks.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

3 stock does nothing but waste time in the early rounds of a tournament where an extra stock doesn't really matter. 3 out of 5 may take longer, but it fixes the problem of not having enough time to adapt if you add it I'm the later rounds

 

[wizrad]

Yeah, I meant on a large scale, sorry for being ambiguous. Some big TO must be willing to take a risk. There are may other ways to make a tourney run faster anyways. Maybe we could text players when their match is up or something.

 

[Knife8193]

Stumbled on to this conversation. Lots of talk on whether 3 stock can work in a larger tournament setting. We do have a regional (3 stocks) occurring tomorrow which is easily expected to break 150+ entrants. Some really big names attending. Singles start at 2 pm. I'll update on how it goes afterwards.

http://smashboards.com/threads/dec-...-ryo-dabuz-scizor-and-more-houston-tx.419208/

 

[Shouxiao]

3 stock does nothing but waste time in the early rounds of a tournament where an extra stock doesn't really matter. 3 out of 5 may take longer, but it fixes the problem of not having enough time to adapt if you add it I'm the later rounds

Stumbled on to this conversation. Lots of talk on whether 3 stock can work in a larger tournament setting. We do have a regional (3 stocks) occurring tomorrow which is easily expected to break 150+ entrants. Some really big names attending. Singles start at 2 pm. I'll update on how it goes afterwards.

http://smashboards.com/threads/dec-...-ryo-dabuz-scizor-and-more-houston-tx.419208/

Interesting. I would like to see more 3stock tournaments be run so that results can be gotten.

 

[wizrad]

Problem is that the timer is set to 7 minutes, so I could see lots of timeouts. The stagelist is very different, too, I'll enjoy seeing not Wuhu, but Kongo in play.

Also, Miis are set to 1111, which looks suspiciously like prison bars...

Edit: Apparently Wuhu is banned while Skyloft is legal. That's just silly. Wuhu should be legal, Skyloft, Halberd, and Peach's Castle should be banned.