Inverse matchup thread

[Nodrak]

I haven't played too may DK's =S But their bair is a monster. Completely forgot about their cargo throw!

Mario's cape.. that brings me back. A friend of mine mained Mario in Melee while I mained Luigi. He loved to cape my uppercut (upB) so that I'd aim the wrong way and not grab the edge, so I'd intentionally face the wrong way, and wait for him to cape me so that I'd grab the edge.

Thanks for the info.

Also, added pictures and put them in better alphabetical order.

 

[BbqCombo]

GaW's D-tilt cancels aura spheres (im pretty sure at least)
Mario FLUDDing is becoming popular with the mario community, its when they use their FLUDD to edge-guard.
Pikachu can attack the second he hits the ground after a quick-attack (QAC, quick attack cancel) and watch out for B-sticked thunders for edgeguarding.
Luigi can AA UpB.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Foot stool jump absolutely destroys DK, since his vertical recovery is not-so-great.

And if a Kirby ever happens to suck you up and copy your abilities, spam d-air. Guaranteed hit.

I'll be back with more info later.

 

[SpazzerEXE]

^ I'd just say be careful when going after the foot stool when DK is trying to recover because he can still catch a hard hit off you with his up B granted that he's quick enough. Probably could kill ya if you're damage is high enough.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I've never been killed by an up-B. The knockback is very minimal, and even if you get caught in it and brought off the stage, you can recover 99% of the time. What people should be wary of whilst performing a FSJ off DK is his u-air. It has great KO potential, and the hitbox comes out at around the same time as his b-air.

 

[Pentaoku]

They may try killing our BAS or partly charged spheres with blaster shots

...The blaster goes THROUGH Aura Sphers <_<.

 

[BbqCombo]

uh, wolf's reflector has invincibility armor for the first like 3 frames so expect a lot of reflectors from pro wolfs.

Near 40% or higher, stay away from the edge against ice climbers because they can Fthrow with popo and spike you with nana.

 

[Luck~]

For wolf, please add that for the love of god watch out for his F smash, can't stress that enough, it has both a better reach then luc's fsmash, and comes out significantly faster then any of Luc's smashes.

If there is anything people note wolf for, it's his crouch grabbing Fsmash.

Also he has some pretty good aerials too, so he could pose a challenge in the air against luc imo.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Since i use wolf I'll mention this. Beware the bair. Its easy to spam and hard to punish. This might just be me but also watch out for dair. I spike with it really easily once people are near the ledge. A smart wolf usually doesn't spam the reflector as much as falco or fox. They do use it up close tho for invincibility or just to counter kind of like marth.

 

[phi1ny3]

Since i use wolf I'll mention this. Beware the bair. Its easy to spam and hard to punish. This might just be me but also watch out for dair. I spike with it really easily once people are near the ledge. A smart wolf usually doesn't spam the reflector as much as falco or fox. They do use it up close tho for invincibility or just to counter kind of like marth.

So true, his bair is like falco's, except more powerful.

 

[phi1ny3]

For Mario please add that his cape can instantly change extreme speed's direction, and potentially get a gimp KO on us.

So be warned fellow lucarios!

Man, I'm glad I practice on Spear Pillar, I've got the controls on reverse almost as much as forward. Besides, Lucario's recovery is a little more useful against cape in a sense if u remember to turn opposite.

 

[SpazzerEXE]

So true, his bair is like falco's, except more powerful.

Its no where near as sexy looking though imo.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'm been having a hard time trying to orate this, but here goes:

I think we could get some more information on the characters that we don't have much information on if we play as those characters against Lucario.

For example, Samus. Since we don't have much info on Samus, we could assign someone who knows how to play Samus efficiently (ie. mains/seconds) to play a bunch of matches against Lucario, to figure out the Samus mindset whilst playing against Lucario.

Does that make sense?

 

[Nodrak]

Makes perfect sense. Too bad my seconds are accounted for. Marth has a bunch of info and Pika users don't vary their strategies that much. Most still seem to be working QAC and QAL into their game.
...
Ok I should add QAL to the Pikachu section.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Good. I'll look at Sheik for the next couple of days, play some matches against PSYCHE, jot down some stuff, and post it here in a bit.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, I managed to play a couple of Sheik vs. Lucario matches, and this is what I came up with:

*Sheik has been extremely nerfed since Melee, and they know it. Rub it in their faces, and 50% of the time, they will commit Hara-Kiri (Ritual Suicide).

*NEVER ExtremeSpeed horizontal to the edge when you are being edgeguarded. Always try to either recover below the edge or above it. Sheik users have a technique called “Vanish Edgeguard”, which is basically running off the edge and up-B’ing at the same time, which causes the explosion of their up-B to be lateral to the edge. This will usually KO Lucario at approximately 120% and up.

*Watch for Sheik’s f-tilt. They can trap you in it from 0%-30%. Also leads perfectly into u-tilt and/or f/n-air.

*You’ve really got nothing to worry about when you are directly below Sheik. All she has at her disposal is her d-air, when can be easily dodged, and her n-air, which is easily out-prioritized by Lucario‘s u-air. If she does manage to hit you with her d-air, no worries! It does minimal damage, and has an atrocious amount of landing lag.

*Sheik users feel awkward when they are above you. The only attack good Sheiks will use when they are above you is their needles and n-air, and since needle-canceling has been removed since Melee, needle-spamming Sheiks are much more punishable. If you can manage to pop Sheik into the air, you’ve pretty much gained control over the match.

*Up-Smash is one of their greatest attacks, and one of their main KO moves. A good Sheik will be able to Dash Cancel into Up-Smash, which can travel up to about half the distance of Final Destination. Fortunately, it is EXTREMELY difficult to pull off consistently. Still, be wary.

*F-Smash severely punishes bad DI. Try to DI up and out to avoid being hit by both attacks.

*N-air is the most common aerial kill move, and with good reason. Be careful when crowding a Sheik, as she will usually pull out an n-air.

*N-air, F-air, and B-air are lagless upon landing. WATCH OUT!

*Chain….*Snicker*

*Needles do not cancel projectiles as easily as they did in Melee. Take advantage of this, and spam them Aura Spheres.

 

[salaboB]

Man, I'm glad I practice on Spear Pillar, I've got the controls on reverse almost as much as forward. Besides, Lucario's recovery is a little more useful against cape in a sense if u remember to turn opposite.

I think I actually blew right through Mario's cape with ES once, without it reversing me. Maybe it automatically rights itself if you're holding the direction and it's not the very end of the move.

 

[Nodrak]

I think I actually blew right through Mario's cape with ES once, without it reversing me. Maybe it automatically rights itself if you're holding the direction and it's not the very end of the move.

If Mario's cape hits a character, they turn around, even in the middle of an animation. I'm guessing that Mario just timed the cape poorly. Though to be fair, it's probably best to curve ES around Mario, just in case =P

 

[Pentaoku]

I play Wario from time to time.

Key things to note:
+His aerials have less range than ours, but his air control is better, so he can weave in and out very easily.
+Up air is their killing move, but it's outranged by down air, so if you see that up air coming, time it right or die.
+Down air links to ground follow ups, so be ready to shield.
+Bike > Aura Spheres, unless you jump and hit Wario.
+Forward Smash has a few super armor frames, but bad lag.
+Down Smash has bad lag if used (though most Wario players won't use this until higher percents and only if they're at least 75% sure it will hit.)
+Up Smash doesn't get all of it's hits on most of the time.
+Lucario is relatively safe from the Bite (Neutral B) due to disjointed hit boxes.
+Wario Waft has very strong KO power, and Wario (through out the entire animation until the very end) is the hit box. There are 2 hit boxes but I can't remember them.
+Without his Bike, Wario's recovery is pretty bad. So if they are approaching the stage horizontally on the Bike, they may apt to just ride it down onto the stage. Try to take advantage of this and b-air them.

A friend of mine plays Samus, and he's got a specific set of tactics.

+Samus's down air is done very often as a way to kill you quick.
+Missles will be used to prevent giving you a lot of Aura Sphere charge time.
+He preferred to save his charged shots for higher percents, rather than using it to build damage, that way he could set up some edge guarding.
+If I was nearby, or I had just hit him a small distance away via Jab combo, ftilt, or a smash at low %, he would create a few bombs in defense so I wouldn't approach him. Though Samus' bombs don't explode on contact anymore, I probably could've done a dash attack then shielded.
+He liked Samus' aerials and tilt attacks, and his preferred smashes were down smash.
+Forward air is decent on range. Back air can hurt, up air is used every now and then.
+Screw attack is annoying.
+I would guess that he would rather use tether recoveries as apposed to actually using screw attack, if he could.

Another friend of mine plays Diddy.

+Diddy seems to love using dash attack -> up smash.
+Lots of people don't seem to like using his Pop Gun.
+Rocket Barrel Boost can spike you if you are under it.
+Horizontal recoveries include the side-B attack, so watch out for that.
+Their air game is nice, but some of the aerials have slow start up.
+Will attempt to spike you.

 

[Trapt497]

I'm been having a hard time trying to orate this, but here goes:

I think we could get some more information on the characters that we don't have much information on if we play as those characters against Lucario.

For example, Samus. Since we don't have much info on Samus, we could assign someone who knows how to play Samus efficiently (ie. mains/seconds) to play a bunch of matches against Lucario, to figure out the Samus mindset whilst playing against Lucario.

Does that make sense?

Ya it makes sense.

Jeepy, Tallen played Samus a ton in melee, and I'm pretty sure samus is his second right now! He could help us with Samus a lot.

As for other characters, well, first, which characters do we not know much about? Do we still know little about Toon Link?

 

[Nodrak]

Just take a look. I'm still in the process of updating, but I'm not adding much at this point (got Jeepy and Penta's stuff in there already) Take a look, if the section looks small, add some stuff =P

 

[Trapt497]

*takes a look*

ZOMG I mained Luigi in melee too Nodrak!!!!!! :O

*looks again*

OK good Toon Link info. Since you said we don't have much Kirby info I will try and look (detective powers activate).

 

[phi1ny3]

Alright, I managed to play a couple of Sheik vs. Lucario matches, and this is what I came up with:

*Sheik has been extremely nerfed since Melee, and they know it. Rub it in their faces, and 50% of the time, they will commit Hara-Kiri (Ritual Suicide).

*NEVER ExtremeSpeed horizontal to the edge when you are being edgeguarded. Always try to either recover below the edge or above it. Sheik users have a technique called “Vanish Edgeguard”, which is basically running off the edge and up-B’ing at the same time, which causes the explosion of their up-B to be lateral to the edge. This will usually KO Lucario at approximately 120% and up.

*Watch for Sheik’s f-tilt. They can trap you in it from 0%-30%. Also leads perfectly into u-tilt and/or f/n-air.

*You’ve really got nothing to worry about when you are directly below Sheik. All she has at her disposal is her d-air, when can be easily dodged, and her n-air, which is easily out-prioritized by Lucario‘s u-air. If she does manage to hit you with her d-air, no worries! It does minimal damage, and has an atrocious amount of landing lag.

*Sheik users feel awkward when they are above you. The only attack good Sheiks will use when they are above you is their needles and n-air, and since needle-canceling has been removed since Melee, needle-spamming Sheiks are much more punishable. If you can manage to pop Sheik into the air, you’ve pretty much gained control over the match.

*Up-Smash is one of their greatest attacks, and one of their main KO moves. A good Sheik will be able to Dash Cancel into Up-Smash, which can travel up to about half the distance of Final Destination. Fortunately, it is EXTREMELY difficult to pull off consistently. Still, be wary.

*F-Smash severely punishes bad DI. Try to DI up and out to avoid being hit by both attacks.

*N-air is the most common aerial kill move, and with good reason. Be careful when crowding a Sheik, as she will usually pull out an n-air.

*N-air, F-air, and B-air are lagless upon landing. WATCH OUT!

*Chain….*Snicker*

*Needles do not cancel projectiles as easily as they did in Melee. Take advantage of this, and spam them Aura Spheres.

Most do not know how true this is. I hated Sheik (she was too cheap in Melee), and her moveset frustrated me, so I could never really use her. How the Mighty have fallen! She has been nerfed soooo much, she has very few KO moves, and her needles can't be cancelled.

 

[Pentaoku]

Oh one more thing about Jigglypuff. If you're at a higher percent, watch out for Jigglypuff's boost smash. It's powerful, kills vertically, but it can be avoided pretty easily in most cases. It's hard to space and to do in general, and seems to be done after standing still for a second... or at least that's how the person I play uses it. (Perhaps to get ready to do the boost smash? It's kinda tricky timing-wise)

 

[Trapt497]

Some quotes from this Zelda thread I found:

“Zelda is either neutral or soft counter to Lucario. My friend trained Lucario for a long time.”

“Roughly even:

Lucario”

“Zelda seems neutral Vs. Lucario... maybe even soft counter...”

Just came across those looking for a Kirby help thread. Anyways.

Quotes from a Kirby thread:

“Kirby is still ten times sexier than Lucario, though.” (my friend, you are so, sooo mistaken.)

“In my opinion Kirby and Lucario are pretty much equal in terms of how good they are as characters. Both of them are very strong and have a load of options to work with. Kirby just gets KOes off a lot sooner than Lucario, who takes more skill to play effectively but is well worth it once you know what you're doing”

“Kirby has much better air control, and has some decent power in him”

“kirby has faster and better control in the air but he requires more practice then lucario but his special is not as good as lucarios.”

That’s pretty much all I can find. Sorry if it isn’t very helpful but I don’t really have time to be a spy for that long :/ Anything we can get from these to add to the thread or not really?

 

[Nodrak]

Yeah I had a lot of fun in melee with Luigi =P He's changed a lot in Brawl though. His attacks are diffrent, the range is lessened, they're slower and he's more of a combo character now, less knockback.

Zelda seems to have many of the same attack animations as Lucario, nair, ftilt, fsmash ect and much of the same range on attacks, so I guess it's only natural for them to be roughly equal at this point.

Kirby likes his air game, we'll have to show them the power of aura. And by aura I mean disjointed hitboxes.

 

[Trapt497]

Yeah I need to work on memorizing where those disjointed hitboxes are because I don't know them very well at the moment.

Zelda is a very very good character in Brawl. She will be tough against Lucario. The following are advantages she has over us, according to me, and they are only guesses.

-Din's Fire is a very good attack which discourages us from camping the AS, and plus a good timed neutral B will diflect an AS anyways.
-her neutral air is almost the same animation as ours, but I don't know enough about it to know if it is more powerful or has a larger hitbox or not.
-Teh Heel. 'nuff said.
-Her up smash (or u-tilt, don't remember sorry), imo, is very good and discourages me from advancing from the top and using d-air.

I can't think up many advantages we have over her. Is she easy to force palm grab combo?

 

[Kitamerby]

Yeah I need to work on memorizing where those disjointed hitboxes are because I don't know them very well at the moment.

Zelda is a very very good character in Brawl. She will be tough against Lucario. The following are advantages she has over us, according to me, and they are only guesses.

-Din's Fire is a very good attack which discourages us from camping the AS, and plus a good timed neutral B will diflect an AS anyways.
-her neutral air is almost the same animation as ours, but I don't know enough about it to know if it is more powerful or has a larger hitbox or not.
-Teh Heel. 'nuff said.
-Her up smash (or u-tilt, don't remember sorry), imo, is very good and discourages me from advancing from the top and using d-air.

I can't think up many advantages we have over her. Is she easy to force palm grab combo?

She's light, her smashes can be DI'd out of if you're good, and her long-lasting smashes can be punished from the right angles and distance.

Also, doesn't Lucario's fsmash outrange Zelda's?

...Oh, also we have Double Team and more range than her in the air if I remember right, but not when it comes to your dair vs her uair, which is a really really really stupid idea unless as a combo ender.

 

[Milln]

-Din's Fire is a very good attack which discourages us from camping the AS, and plus a good timed neutral B will diflect an AS anyways
-Teh Heel. 'nuff said.
-Her up smash (or u-tilt, don't remember sorry), imo, is very good and discourages me from advancing from the top and using d-air.

It's the other way around with Din's Fire. Just throw uncharged ones and save the larger spheres for up close.

Lightning Kick is outranged.

You should be more concerned about uair if you're trying to dair Zelda. Usmash and utilt are both outranged by dair.

 

[Trapt497]

Oh yeah I forgot about her up air explody-awesomness :/ Is it as hard to hit with as it was in melee or did it get a buff? Thanks for the range info.

And about Din's Fire, that thing is freakin fast. I would hope anyone trying to stop it from hitting them is close enough to Zelda to hit her with the baby aura spheres.

 

[Steamroll3929]

Wow guys good job. I think this deserves a sticky for all the hard worl that we put into this. Plus it something that would be good to reference before or during a tournament.

 

[Kitamerby]

Oh yeah I forgot about her up air explody-awesomness :/ Is it as hard to hit with as it was in melee or did it get a buff? Thanks for the range info.

And about Din's Fire, that thing is freakin fast. I would hope anyone trying to stop it from hitting them is close enough to Zelda to hit her with the baby aura spheres.

It seems much easier to hit with now, and is much much more powerful.

Also, can't you cancel out Din's fire with attack moves? I'm sure at least ONE of Lucario's great air options should be able to cancel it out. *unable to check currently due to wii problems*

 

[Nodrak]

Tournaments! Since we're all Lucario's we watch other playstyles right? Maybe we can get some tactics people used against us (while we played Lucario) after a tournament. There are some characters that need more info in them sure, but this has to be updated as well!

Also, airdodge or downB is Lucario's best defence/offence against din's fire =S

 

[Browny]

using reverse double team works amazingly well as an approach against TL spam and waddle dees... lucario just becomes an invincible hitbox teleporting across the stage lol

 

[Nodrak]

Hmm, I'm thinking of adding counterpick stages to this, as in what stage we should pick in a tournament against that spicific character. I don't know too much about most of the characters in terms of stages so if you guys frequent other characters forums/boards, keep an eye out for stages we can counterpick them on, and post here, try to provide reasoning it helps =P

For example: Pikachu, Battlefield. The multiple platforms prevent Pikachu from using Quick Attack Cancel (QAC) effectivly, stops his full/short hopped thunderjolts (neutralB) and his Thunder (downB)

 

[PSYCHE]

Sounds good.

I know that most Nessers dont like Battlefield either becuase it messes with their PKT2. And by that I mean that they cant do it when they are under a platform because PKT cant travel through a platform going down.

 

[Trapt497]

It seems much easier to hit with now, and is much much more powerful.

Also, can't you cancel out Din's fire with attack moves? I'm sure at least ONE of Lucario's great air options should be able to cancel it out. *unable to check currently due to wii problems*

Thanks for answering my question. I'll keep that in mind now when approaching from above ha.

Hmm...I think if you could cancel out Din's Fire with an attack it would be very hard to get the timing down. I think its just easier to do what Nodrak said: Double Team it or dodge roll out of the way.

 

[PSYCHE]

Lol, you should do a Lucario section! ^-^

 

[Nodrak]

lol I thought of that but I figured all there would be was "... Anything you thought of doing, they'll probably do too." Of course I could always take Milln's post and go "The stronger one will win" =P

 

[Milln]

Take note that I mean stronger as a player, not character. >,>