Inverse matchup thread

[Nodrak]

Why would Ivysaur Usmash? Bulletseed(upB) would do more damage (trapped in it until you can DI out), has less startup lag and a longer reach.

Either way, I DO find ivysaur to be the worst matchup for Lucario. Charizard is too slow to pose a problem, squirtle, although quick, just can't kill. Ivysaur has the range advantage; she can cancle aura spheres and the nair is great for pushing you back.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

^^^HAHAHA yes obviously.

Come to think of it though G&W does have several advantages over Lucario.

ANYONE can feel free to prove me wrong :D 0259 0019 9445

 

[Milln]

ANYONE can feel free to prove me wrong :D 0259 0019 9445

He's agreeing with you.
Competitive WiFi Lalwlawlalwalw
Game & Watch Players are now dyslexic AND holier-than-thou. Clearly.
We're being silly. Take it easy.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

He's agreeing with you.
Competitive WiFi Lalwlawlalwalw
Game & Watch Players are now dyslexic AND holier-than-thou. Clearly.
We're being silly. Take it easy.

as was i :D itd stll be interesting to be beaten by lucario

 

[Pentaoku]

as was i :D itd stll be interesting to be beaten by lucario

Can you remind me again why you quoted me o_O?

 

[Nodrak]

Lysdexia.

Back on topic, I've finished every character... but studying production and operations management for most of the day discouraged me from reading more then I usually would, meaning some parts (like Toon Link) have very little information.

 

[MysticKenji]

Why would Ivysaur Usmash? Bulletseed(upB) would do more damage (trapped in it until you can DI out), has less startup lag and a longer reach.

Either way, I DO find ivysaur to be the worst matchup for Lucario. Charizard is too slow to pose a problem, squirtle, although quick, just can't kill. Ivysaur has the range advantage; she can cancle aura spheres and the nair is great for pushing you back.

1. Better question: Why are you above Ivysaur?

2. If Bullet Seed's popup hits you, you can get get out simply holding a direction, and you can DI + Smash DI out, though I'm not sure if it's less damage than 1 Usmash.

Also, Bullet Seed can't kill.

3. I'm pretty sure Zard's attacks are about as fast as Luke's

4. Ivy does not have a range advantage

5. Aura Sphere > Razor Leaf

6. Why would an Ivysaur use Nair as a push-back when it sets up for Bullet Seed?

 

[phi1ny3]

Nice!

Good work, Nodrak! 2 bad the tooners didn't say anything useful. Funny, Will fight for his friends. Surprised about the sideB, but I heard from a friend that he thought it was 2 slow. He's gonna be surprised, if only he knew the power of chain-palm.

 

[phi1ny3]

He's correct. BAS owns Ivy's razor leaf.

 

[Trapt497]

^^Dont double post... >.<

This G&W dude makes no sense to me...

Anyways. Thank you Nodrak. You rock. Must have taken a while.

"They're generally discouraged from throwing pikmin due to them giving us damage without knockback and because we can just double team them for a free, strong attack. (though they are wise to this and can predict it)"

Dont mean to put more work on you ha. But I disagree (maybe they are discouraged from latching pikmin on us, but they will throw them into aura spheres). Any olimar who has played Lucario at least once and used side B at least three or so times will know that a simple pikmin throw will negate ANY aura sphere. Im pretty sure I said this in my olimar suggestions.

So put that in there because Lucario's aura sphere is very important to his gameplay and a simple side b from olimar can negate its awesomeness. I agree with what you said, but a smart olimar player should throw pikmin to negate any aura sphere.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry, me not see edit button at time... But anyways, yes, the G&W guy likes to frequent Lucario forums, and apparently he no likey us.

 

[Nodrak]

^^Dont double post... >.<

But I disagree (maybe they are discouraged from latching pikmin on us, but they will throw them into aura spheres). Any olimar who has played Lucario at least once and used side B at least three or so times will know that a simple pikmin throw will negate ANY aura sphere. Im pretty sure I said this in my olimar suggestions.

Yeah, I meant the latching pikmin, sorry bout that.

 

[SpazzerEXE]

Peach:
Ok I had a bunch to write here but it seems they're actually almost fighting over how to play against Lucario. They have no clear strategy around fighting Lucario, half say one thing half say the other so be prepared for anything.

That made me chuckle a bit. xD
Another tactic I've seen G&W do is to spam his Neutral B. If you try to retaliate with Aura Sphere it gets canceled out either by the pan (sometimes) or one of the sausages. And if the G&W is quick enough he can bait out the Aura Sphere with his neutral B, and switch to his Bucket before the Aura Sphere hits him. Sorry if this old but just something I thought I'd share regardless.

Beautiful thread btw Nodrak.

 

[Trapt497]

its not old. good point.

its all good Nodrak.

Anyone have good ideas to fill in the toon link section?

 

[phi1ny3]

its not old. good point.

its all good Nodrak.

Anyone have good ideas to fill in the toon link section?

I ought to check the TL, as I do alternate in him. so I'll add my results in here soon. Please update when I find it, Nodrak.

 

[Trapt497]

alright good luck. I will try to find a thread about Lucario in the toon link section. I should make a thread on that section asking for help against lucarios! Haha actually no that wouldn't work, and it would be cheating, and my lucario main picture would look a little fishy too ha.

 

[Nodrak]

Point is to be sneaky isn't it? =P It's good to have more then just me going through these posts though, maybe others will find something I missed. If anyone knows of other boards or other forums in general (outside of SWF) don't be afraid to post stuff from there. I don't frequent any but SWF but I've still gotten some info of them.

 

[MysticKenji]

Toon Link
is annoying >_<

 

[phi1ny3]

Against Toon Link

About toon link. I has found teh stuff! So here goes...
They seem to underestimate us, ie no talk of our grab, FP, DT, or smash. On top of that, they seem to think that Lucarios can only use upB for recovery (hello? Wall cling?). They like projectiles, but mostly bombs and boomerangs. They love when we use shield, so watch out for rushes hidden by projectiles. Oh yeah, and they love their bair, nair, and the occasional dair. They hate our dair, fair, and they fear us at about 50%, so expect the little devil to hide behind his shield when u hit 50%. They like their air combos almost as much as we do, so take caution.

Just remember, "have aura, will travel."

hope this helps

 

[BbqCombo]

Actually, I used to main toon link and i currently second GaW so heres a few things you should add.

Toon Link: dont use any highly punishable moves(Usmash comes to mind) since TL can easily do an annoying 23 or so % with a single Fsmash.
TL can pull off 2 Bairs in one shorthop so be prepared for them trying to string combos together with that move.
*IMPORTANT* by simply standing still, TL can block ANY level aura sphere.
Use zair to catch his bombs and dodge at the same time.
Be prepared for some jump canceled bomb throws(or w.e theyre called)
If he attempts to spike you, dont panick(its what they're counting on) and just dodge their Dair, theyll plummet to their doom =P.
Also on the obvious side , at certain stages its harder to see their projectiles because of the background.
Finally, ALL TL users have a favourite projectile(bomb is most common i think) so learn how to avoid them(or catch them) and punish before they recover.

Game and Watch: Turtles.TURTLES! Their Bair is considered by many their BEST arial move. It has high priority,almost no lag,hits multiple times and has some nice knockback.Those are all the good things about it.The bad, you ask? Well, for starters, basically its a free double team and its so easy to see coming since its the most used approach in the GaW community since it blocks almost all projectiles.If you do use double team but he dosnt use his turtle and you're wide open, if he uses the turtle, DI to behind GaW(or infront if hes DIing backwards) and the last hit with high knockback wont hit you.

Also, his Fair is a high knockback move with nice priority wich you might want to avoid since it K.O.s at around 120% i think.Dodge and punish, it has landing lag(not terrible, but enough to be punished).

GaW's Uair makes you float higher so if he's below you, dont jump because i've seen many a character star K.O.ed this way. The one way to dodge it(the COMs helped me see this) is to arial dodge.Beware of the second hit of the puff thingy though because it has nice knockback, but im pretty sure you can Dair through it.

His Dair(THE KEY *GASP*) has high priority and almost no landing lag, the GaW player can DI to move it left or right somewhat, it spikes (only right when it comes out though) and finally, GaW can press down on the control stick to slow the speed of the descent into the speed of a fastfall so its safer for them to use over the edge.Solution? dont get below them, if you do then just powershield it(or spotdodge if you cant powershield) and punish with a Ftilt or anything you see fit.

Their Dthrow is easily techchased into a Dsmash(very hard to pull off against lucario though*YAY*)
so be carefull of that.

Finally, shieldgrab his smashes since they all have lag (not Dsmash though) and watch out for his Ftilt(chair) and Dtilt(manhole or something) since they have priority over your tilts.

*important* If he gets you with 2 or more #9 hammers, its probably just your off-day so dont feel bad

Correct me if i'm wrong about any of this stuff

 

[SpazzerEXE]

Game and Watch: Turtles.TURTLES!

'NUFF. SAID.
Guuwahhh, I hate that move! >_<

And nice find on the TL info man.

 

[BbqCombo]

thx bleableablalabl (to increase message to 10 chars)

 

[Nodrak]

Just say 10char at the end of the post, it's what everyone else does around here =P
Also don't worry I'll update in a few minutes, thanks for the info.

 

[BbqCombo]

Np, id be happy to lend a hand anytime :D

 

[Trapt497]

Nodrak powers activate. Input teh info ha.

Bdg I liked your analysis of toon link and g&w players. My friend mains G&W. He doesn't use side b much though so i dont have to worry about #9.

 

[phi1ny3]

Actually, I used to main toon link and i currently second GaW so heres a few things you should add.

Toon Link: dont use any highly punishable moves(Usmash comes to mind) since TL can easily do an annoying 23 or so % with a single Fsmash.
TL can pull off 2 Bairs in one shorthop so be prepared for them trying to string combos together with that move.
*IMPORTANT* by simply standing still, TL can block ANY level aura sphere.
Use zair to catch his bombs and dodge at the same time.
Be prepared for some jump canceled bomb throws(or w.e theyre called)
If he attempts to spike you, dont panick(its what they're counting on) and just dodge their Dair, theyll plummet to their doom =P.
Also on the obvious side , at certain stages its harder to see their projectiles because of the background.
Finally, ALL TL users have a favourite projectile(bomb is most common i think) so learn how to avoid them(or catch them) and punish before they recover.

Correct me if i'm wrong about any of this stuff

I need to warn you, Though this is great info addition onto the thread. When I was reading about the dair in the TL forums, most of the noobs were talking about using dair to kill us, but most of the Journeymans on up said NOT to use dair in the TL forum. Plus, while it is a viable strategy to stand still with the shield to block aura, most never quite said that in the forums collected. So they either never thought of that much, or they are all noobs in that sense. I use TL as an alternate, and while I think he's pretty kewl, they definitely underestimate us. Still, I'm glad I got some corrections from a former mainer. Thanks. We will benefit and slaughter teh kids! Muahaha

P.S. Thank u sooo much for the G&W info. I hate G&W, he's so annoying!

 

[BbqCombo]

Yeah, most toon links ive battled on wifi just spam arrows to try to block my aura spheres :/

I main GaW :D hes fun to use and his bell taunt can be pulled of like 5 times in a few seconds.

 

[BbqCombo]

Hey Nod, i have some info on gannon for you, its not much but i dont remember seeing it so here goes...

Kay, so imagine this...you're right above the gannon, perfectly positioned so he can use his upB on you, he grabs you, lets go and suddenly flies away spouting blue flames. Yesh, its possible, if he gets you with his upB, mash A and right when gannon lets go, you'll Nair him right in the face.

Also, if or when you get grabbed by his sideB thingy on the ground,make sure you hold left or right when you hit the ground(or tech) so that he cant Dtilt, upB you for like 20 or so dmg i think.

Hope that helps a bit :O

 

[phi1ny3]

Hey BbqCombo, saw ur thread on the TL forums. Way to be discrete (jk). But yes, it's getting some useful information.

 

[Nodrak]

Hey Nod, i have some info on gannon for you, its not much but i dont remember seeing it so here goes...

Kay, so imagine this...you're right above the gannon, perfectly positioned so he can use his upB on you, he grabs you, lets go and suddenly flies away spouting blue flames. Yesh, its possible, if he gets you with his upB, mash A and right when gannon lets go, you'll Nair him right in the face.

Also, if or when you get grabbed by his sideB thingy on the ground,make sure you hold left or right when you hit the ground(or tech) so that he cant Dtilt, upB you for like 20 or so dmg i think.

Hope that helps a bit :O

First part was mentioned in the guy from the Ganon forum's quote, but I'll add the 2nd part in, thanks.

 

[Milln]

Of course, don't always roll to one side and don't always roll. Sometimes you'll want to attack on getup and switch up your rolls. SideB is a huge tech chase for Ganondorf. Don't get predicted.

 

[BbqCombo]

Hey BbqCombo, saw ur thread on the TL forums. Way to be discrete (jk). But yes, it's getting some useful information.

lol yeah, just trying to see what they think of us They put us at low mid-tier on their own tier list :/

LOL i went back to the melee forums yesterday to look at what the pichu threads wer like and there were like 5 or so...DEAD


Ohyeah, i heard they were banning IC's CGs in Texas. poor ice climbers its like saying "If you're fox, you cant shoot lasers at someone if they are more than 3 character spaces away from you"


Yeah thats right, i travel the boards and look at ALL the threads

 

[Nodrak]

lol well if they're banning entire characters, the tourny is run by an idiot who doesn't know what (s)he's doing, it wont be a big tourny, and probably wont be recognized by the smash community cept for people thinking 'wtf, you cant ban a character'

(They also banned Wolf in a small local tourny, southern Carolina or California or something)

 

[phi1ny3]

lol well if they're banning entire characters, the tourny is run by an idiot who doesn't know what (s)he's doing, it wont be a big tourny, and probably wont be recognized by the smash community cept for people thinking 'wtf, you cant ban a character'

(They also banned Wolf in a small local tourny, southern Carolina or California or something)

That's a laugh. And yes, I saw that ban on IC CG, hope they don't do that to Dx3.

 

[Nodrak]

Woops misread. But yeah, in that case they have to ban Marth grabbing Lucas, Dedede, Yoshi, Lucario, ect from chaingrabbing too. Though... in melee wobbling was banned but that was considered a stall cause theoretically you could do it infinitely.

 

[MysticKenji]

Wobbling was legal until 300% iirc

(Why are we talking about Wobbling?)

 

[Milln]

Went over and asked the Kirby players. They have a topic about copying powers and whether or not it would be useful.

Kirby's Aura Sphere always does around a set amount of damage. It does as much damage as Lucario's Aura Sphere if Lucario was at 100% damage. So Lucario's Aura Sphere is weaker than Kirby's at 0-99%. But it's stronger than Kirby's at 101+ more percent. Same goes for the properties of the move, speed that it travels, size, knock back, and damage done. Overall, Kirby doesnt gain the boost though like Lucario can, but its stronger than Lucario's at low or 0% damage.

And I Did some quick testing of my own for verification and Kirby's Aura Sphere is more like a Lucario at 70-85% instead of 100. This is crazy. =o Which means: 7-8% uncharged. 19-20% fully charged

 

[Nodrak]

ewww, so they have an aura sphere that can cancel ours out if they suck us up at the beginning of a match!
I'll add the info in a minute

 

[SpazzerEXE]

Moar DK Info

DK:
Aura spheres are countered by ftilt.
They only have a few quick attacks, so they'll abuse bair if you try to make it an aerial battle.

Thought I'd add a few things here I've found out firsthand.
For starters, his Up-Tilt cancels out AS too, as well as our Up-Tilt (they clink). Hows that important you ask? Ok picture this: "Clink, clink, clinkity, BACK AIR TO THE FACE" Your face, not his (as a side note I found this out when DK was facing his back to me and my character model was slightly inside his, but after the third clink or so I was about half a character length away. So there might be a level of practicality to this).

Also, more competitive DK's will Cargo Up-Throw the crap out of you in order to get you D-Air happy.
For my sake and yours, PLEASE don't fall for this! As soon as you start d-airing, he's gonna start Up Airing you; ALOT. (trust me its kinda embarrassing :/) It's quick and quite lethal to Luc'y at higher percentages. I'm not gonna say "ZOMGdon'tdairDK!!1" but at the same time just be careful when approaching him from above.

Keep it goin' guys.

 

[Luck~]

For Mario please add that his cape can instantly change extreme speed's direction, and potentially get a gimp KO on us.

Quotes here :

remember the cape in melee? if you caped the space animal during the charge up period of the up b, he could still direct it towards the stage?

NOT ANYMORE

while practicing caping on space animals (cpu's) i noticed that even if i caped them during their charge up animation they'd fly off in the opposite direction. this happened multiple times. i figured it was the ai being stupid and let it be.

while playing some wi-fi matches i noticed this happening again. i only saw it once but i was convinced that the new brawl physics would screw over the recoveries.

after testing this with people in person i've confirmed that when caping the charge up animation, the space animal will go in the direction they would have, turned around.

for example, imagine a fox/falco/wolf charging up. if they press the stick foward during the charge up and get caped they go foward backwards

so it looks like the opponent will have to charge it up with the stick pointed backwards to recover if caped during the charge up, but thats only if they see it coming, and even then, faking them out isnt a problem.

this even works on zelda and her teleport. cape right before she disappears and BAM, she'll kill herself.

oh and the cape works great on ganon that side b kill a lot. instead of fearing to be near the ledge, just cape them. you dont even need to leave the stage! just cape as soon as you see them starting up the side b.

im experimenting with the cape A LOT (cuz i cant use fludd effectively T_T) so more discoveries are going to be made.

and later down the thread :

This also works against Lucario. Although, it's a little difficult to pull off.

So be warned fellow lucarios!