Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[UltiMario]

Well okay, so Stoutland isn't a god. Is it worthy of a position on an offensive sand team, though?

Not really

Adamant LO RP Landorus is better as a sweeper, and Scarf Terrakion is a better cleaner. Or if Drill comes back down, he'll be flat out better than Stoutland in every way (Bar Ice Fang getting Scor... but Drill even has Iron Head for that now)

 

[kirbyraeg]

Stoutland has niche potential as a Jolly CB cleaner that can't be outsped by Lati@s or be speed tied by terrakion/nape/other scarfers. Other than that, it's not very good, as it can't boost effectively and neutral coverage from superpower/crunch/return (and fangs) isn't good enough off of 100 atk.

 

[choknater]

herdier is still mad cute though

 

[ss118]

As much as I like to bump old threads, I have a rather serious question that I would like to impose in this thread.

How is this game developing? Not in terms of what is happening, but rather are you guys enjoying the game nowadays? I haven't touched this game in over a year and I'm actually considering just trying it again because I like pokemon, but gen V is always so... ew.

I personally always had fun with the whole "lead metagame" thing, but now it feels empty with team preview. I'm sure you still have 2-3 particular pokemon you generally start with, but most of the strategy seems gone now in that aspect. Also when I played last it felt like battles were over from the team selection stage, and there really wasn't a lot of playing around bad situations. Is that still the case nowadays, and if it is for OU how about ubers amd LC?

 

[Gates]

Well idgaf about OU but...

Ubers is about the same as it was in HGSS. I guess the biggest changes are that Ho-Oh is good now and that Excadrill makes sand competitive as a weather type.

Gen V didn't ruin Ubers, Arceus did and he did it before BW was released. I guess BW kind of exacerbated the problem by giving him the ability to run more than 100 EVs in each stat, but he really didn't gain much more than that.

Gen V LC is kind of a joke because of how centralized it is. You either play weather or you play Mienfoo/Misdreavus/Murkrow. Or both. Scraggy is also ridiculously good as a sweeper in LC. And I hope you like Eviolite because it's the new Oran Berry. I still like it more than OU though.

If you want a really fun format play NU, it's a blast. The only problem with it is that being determined by usage stats it changes pretty frequently, which means that one month it could be a really aggressive and the next month some big wall could come down and make the format stall-centered or vice-versa. In general though it has a lot of the same feel that Gen IV UU had - lots of FWG cores, risky sweepers, and just about everything (besides obvious joke pokemon) is viable.

As far as Team Preview goes...tbh I really don't notice it anymore. I think that in general it gives the game another rock/paper/scissors element which is what pokemon has been all about for a long time. If the format is balanced (which is admittedly rare), the game really isn't decided at the team selection stage unless your opponent has something your team just can't deal with, in which case you probably would have lost anyway.

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't think the lead metagame has really changed much. Pre-BW, lead matchups where basically a toss-up, driven by chance. Oh, you have an Aerodactyl? Sorry, but this Metagross has Bullet Punch. Lead Azelf? Brought my lead Tyranitar this time. With team preview, there just a different type of metagame. Will they lead with their Espeon, or will they expect me to lead Tyranitar and go with their Breloom?

 

[ss118]

Pre-BW I would do something like start Metagross, which even against a bad match-up(which was rare) was an excellent transition to Dragonite Salamence, and against things like Swampert that handled both then you just Explode with Metagross and STILL transition to the dragon of choice.

Oh yeah. **** the explosion nerf. With nintendo they easily could have done something like the defense drop doesn't apply in 2v2, 3v3, or rotation battles. However that holds no relevance to anything so I'll drop that.

In BW[2?], I could in theory imagine it would still be possible; to maximize your chances of winning over an extended period you would probably look at their team and look at your team, pick the best worse case scenario with a suitable transition in case it does go wrong. You could also consider that the opponent will do the same, and then straight up counter-pick... and then more RPS fun.

Pokemon is already too much RPS and luck. If nothing else I would hope that the beginning of a match would be consistent, but I guess not anymore. Now I have to think hard before we even make the first move, which could be considered a plus.

Then there's the lack of elements of surprise, but really that just benefits players to pick pokemon that have flexible movesets. Again that's off topic.

I never played the Arceus infested ubers metagame. Is it that bad? Obviously he's flexible and a pain, but is it unbearable? I do not know at all, honest opinion.

LC has always been a pretty centralized metagame. But then again, so is ubers; it seems weird to me that you would like one and not the other, but I digress.

 

[UltiMario]

In Gen V OU you can just have Deo-D if you want a dedicated lead that does its job almost every single time. Nothing short of Taunt is really stopping it from getting up 2 layers of hazards, or setting up Screens and maybe even getting a layer on top of that. If you like the old Lead metagame dabble, just use Deo-D. 99% of the time you're supposed to lead with it when using it anyways.

 

[mood4food77]

the OU metagame feels like you have to make a team that is either super-offensive, or super defensive. balance just isn't there anymore.

it got all screwed up with the introduction of drought and drizzle on terrible pokes. The metagame has become a fight to win the weather war and how you take advantage of it.

eviolite hasn't done anything to shake up the OU metagame really, chansey is more of a poor man's blissey, porygon2 is a situational counter, no one else matters

air balloon adds some elements into team development but really, it's more of a good gimmick than anything (although it's really good on heatran)

but really, it's the weather that defines the metagame, you pretty have to make sure your team consists of politoed/tyranitar/ninetails and then support for them (hippowdon just isn't good enough to handle the weather switching and hail is by far the worst weather). you can make a weatherless team to be effective but when doing so, you have to make sure your team can survive in a weathered fight (as in, can it take advantage of sand, sun, and rain and how do they do it?) there's always going to be something anti-metagame to pop up (like lead machamp in Gen IV) but really, the closest we have is multiscale dragonite, but he's better at abusing weather than being the anti-metagame threat

i just feel the metagame isn't as unique when it comes to team building, like there's a big gap between top OU pokes and the less OU pokes, unlike in gen IV.

don't get me wrong, with a good team, it's still fun, but it feels way more centralized than gen IV did.

 

[ss118]

Hmmmm I actually like the sound of that. If Deoxys-D lead is as strong as you say, then most likely people will have dedicated pokemon to try and counter it when it shows up on the team select screen. And if I play enough I'll figure out which of these ACTUALLY work, and when I see those then I can just change to something else on what seems to be few situations. Even if I don't and they pick the direct counter, I'm sure there's a consistent transition.

It's probably harder considering it is U-turn weak, but other than that new Bug/ Steel with download and Scizor what has a strong enough U-turn that actually scares it? I'll take a look into it, but suggestions are welcome.

I have no knowledge on this metagame, so feel free to suggest **** and whatnot.

Edit: I like how the second set listened on Haxorus on smogon is the double dance set, which imo is by far the best on him given team preview. No note of Life Orb is interesting to me, but even just attacking with outrage and Life Orb hurts a ****ton.

Edit2: **** it, ima make a OU team. Haxorus and Deoxys-D confirmed for brawl.

 

[UltiMario]

If you're going for Hazards rather than screens, Tanga Berry Deo-D is so insanely useful. A lot of teams with Scizor or Genesect will send them out first to try and get a 2HKO on Deo-D with U-Turn -> Some strong attack. Every single good team in the metagame has a U-Turner of some sort really, so this strategy isn't uncommon for lead Deo to have to fight. Between Deo-D's speed and defenses, taking Neutral damage from U-Turn just turns any hopes of 2HKOing Deo-D to ****. Anything that is strong enough to actually one-shot Deo after being weakened from a neutral U-Turn gets outsped by speed spiker, and at that point you just got 2 layers up and Deo-D has done its job.

 

[ss118]

I feel like STAB u-turn into Gengar would put and end to Deoxys. Hell, even Gengar by itself would wreck it. Sure I could get SR, but it would be amazing to almost guarantee both SR and a layer of spikes.

I could be a boss and run my Gen IV Skunktank set, which ***** Latias, Gengar, and Scizor(which it lured in a surprising amount). Problem with that is Explosion was nerfed so it can't be useful outside of that... >_>

Houndoom? Mixtar with Chople Berry? Maybe just be boring and run some steel type. Genesect looks good... and there's always scizor.

 

[choknater]

when does bw2 come out

 

[Firus]

when does bw2 come out

October 7th in the United States, the 11th in Australia, and the 12th in Europe.

 

[UltiMario]

Scizor -> Gengar admittedly ruins Deo-D, but you have to admit requiring a combo like that to break a lead is pretty insane considering most leads can handle eachother 1v1.

 

[ss118]

So far for a decent steel I have Scizor, Lucario, Heatran, and Genesect to choose from because I want the ghost + bug + dark resist. Scizor / Genesect are more likely choice pokemon that bring different things to the table while Heatran is more durable but slow option. Lucario couples with the whole idea of residual damage + stat up pokemon really well, and works towards the idea of an actual hyper offensive team(not the fake ones people call hyper offense). He's just so good... and Max claims I am lucario. so **** it, he's on the team too.

With that we have Deoxys-D, Lucario, and Haxorus. We don't want people just spamming EQs and winning games, so now I will probably need something either flying/ levitate or just have a resistance to it. Gyarados, Salamence, Latios, and Breloom all immediately jump to mind. On a lesser scale I also think of the dragon/ dark guy and the new grass/ fighting guy. Realize that the whole point of a hyper-offensive team is to literally force holes in the opposing players team through constant **** thrusting until one of your pokemon sweeps. idk, Scarfed Salamence with moxie looks kind of sick, but having Spore is really gay. Latios doesn't give any ****s about anything, and Gyarados has always been a favorite of mine but unfortunately fails to that new ******y water/ ghost pokemon.

Maybe I should be a **** and try making another charlie's angels team? Something like Tyranitar, Breloom, some SR + U-turn user, 3 angels? xD

 

[UltiMario]

Rotom-W is sort of amazing and immune to Earthquake. It also beats the hell out of Mamoswine, which is important considering how common the damned this is now.

 

[ss118]

Doesn't really match the theme of the team. Mamoswine is pretty easy to deal with since a lot of the time it is forced to Ice Shard, and because of its low base damage it makes it easy for Lucario or Deoxys to come back in and do stuff. They both also have higher base speed. Gyarados also doesn't give a **** about Mamoswine trying to revenge-kill it, but again is really weak to Nattorei(Ferrothorn?) and the ghost water fvcktard... which is why azumarill is meh nowadays. I could always do something like use Breloom + Scizor, which together really turns mamoswine sideways. The priority is in the insane category at this point, as is the overall fire weakness. Finally I could just use Salamence because I want to try the scarf + moxie.

Something like;

Deoxys-d @ Leftovers
Spikes
SR
Taunt
Magic Coat

Scizor @ CB
U-turn
bullet punch
superpower
pursuit

... and I will stop there because I didn't see Breloom has no technitian. fml

 

[UltiMario]

Breloom has Technician now what are you talking about art

 

[ss118]

smogon said it was unreleased. But maybe they just haven't updated their stuff

 

[UltiMario]

Smogon doesn't have BW2 Analyses up yet for the most part.

 

[ss118]

I didn't know it was bw2 exclusive. thats good to know.

 

[UltiMario]

As long as I'm telling you about things that have been released... Impostor Ditto is on the list. Just sayin'

 

[ss118]

How has he been doing? I know he's very good at ensuring DDers don't sweep, but other than that?

 

[UltiMario]

In a nutshell he's not much closer to crawling out of NU than he was before impostor.

 

[ss118]

Oh. Probably because he is mostly deadweight against defensive teams?

 

[UltiMario]

Stall is dead.

His problem is that he's unreliable even against offensive teams. Being choice locked in a moveset where your opponent knows what 4 moves you have, Ditto is just easy as **** to play around. The only things it can really come in on are Dragons because of the neutral coverage Ditto can get, but not even a lot of teams run boosting Dragons.

Ditto is terrible against stall, and unreliable against offense. Even on a team it can do well against (ex 4drag2mag) it struggles to find something to do other than get one revenge kill and die.

 

[ss118]

Wait is 4 drag 2 mag an actual strategy now? I used that **** in gen IV. xD

Fell after salamence left, though...

 

[Gates]

I never played the Arceus infested ubers metagame. Is it that bad? Obviously he's flexible and a pain, but is it unbearable? I do not know at all, honest opinion.

He is one of the biggest threats, both offensively and defensively, of the Gen V Ubers metagame. Every Arceus form is viable in some way or another. Yes, even Poison (and that's not even the worst type). This is a reasonably accurate threat list for the current Ubers metagame. It'll probably continue to be accurate until Shadow Tag Chandelure is released or if something drastic happens (like if Moody Clause is removed, in which case we're all doomed). The worst Arceus forms are about as good as the typical Chlorophyll/Swift Swim pokemon. If you play Ubers, the three most important things you need when building a team are a weather user, a Kyogre check, and an Arceus check. This is made somewhat easier by the fact that a lot of common checks to Arceus forms are other Arceus forms, but in general a lot of teams have trouble finding counters to both SD Arceus builds and CM Arceus builds.

So no, it's not unbearable (not to the point of banning if that's what you're getting at), but it is a danger that looms over a lot of teams. Normal Arceus has consistently been in the top 6 usage stats and recently has been second only to Kyogre. Normal and Ghost forms combined make it clear that Arceus is the most commonly use pokemon in the metagame and rightly so since he's one of the biggest threats in the format. He's God, what else is there to say?

LC has always been a pretty centralized metagame. But then again, so is ubers; it seems weird to me that you would like one and not the other, but I digress.

Was it really? I honestly don't remember Gen IV LC. Most of my memories of that format are about not being able to find a match. Like ever.

How has he been doing? I know he's very good at ensuring DDers don't sweep, but other than that?

In general, Scarf Impostor Ditto is never a bad revenge killer, but he's also almost never the best revenge killer for a given circumstance. In any given format, there will be scarfed pokemon who just generally outclass it as a revenge killer for one reason or another, even if that reason is only that it can use more than 5 moves in a row.

Stall is dead.

Fun is dead.

Wait is 4 drag 2 mag an actual strategy now? I used that **** in gen IV. xD

Fell after salamence left, though...

4drag2mag is always a strategy, it's just not always good. Now it's good though. Good enough that I played a 3drag3mag team to a winning record in less than 90 games while drunk (shoutouts to Circa for losing the skype log of my record, gj dumb***).

 

[Riddle]

I'd just like to note that UltiMario is the king of generalizations.

If your start is Deoxys-D/Lucario/Haxorus, I'd suggest Roost LO Latios as the levitater because you're going to have serious weaknesses to all the dumb special water types running around otherwise.

 

[UltiMario]

I'd just like to note that UltiMario is the king of generalizations.

Only sometimes.

:333333333333

 

[choknater]

what software are yall using to battle lately

 

[UltiMario]

Pokemon Showdown. It's technically not as much "software" since you don't download anything, it's browser based.

 

[choknater]

and it's fully updated?

 

[ss118]

Indeed. I'm trying it right now and quite frankly it's stunning in terms of visuals. =O

pokemonshowdown.com

 

[UltiMario]

Unless Pokemon Online, it doesn't take like 2-3 weeks to update the client for new releases. PS tends to update the night of new releases from DW/Events. Quite wonderful.

 

[Wave⁂]

So is Genesect overcentralizing? Seems like it can fit on pretty much any team, with Scarf, Rock Polish, Expert Belt, amazing type coverage, works with all kinds of weather, U-Turn is the best move in the game, Scizor Tier defensive typing, etc.

 

[choknater]

bring back chompppp!!!

 

[UltiMario]

So is Genesect overcentralizing? Seems like it can fit on pretty much any team, with Scarf, Rock Polish, Expert Belt, amazing type coverage, works with all kinds of weather, U-Turn is the best move in the game, Scizor Tier defensive typing, etc.

It's basically just replacing Scizor's Bug/Steel with U-Turn roll. It's only overcentralizing if you consider Scizor overcentralizing.

Defining the metagame only through niche and not power. Not really overpowering in the slightest, but you have to prepare for them.

bring back chompppp!!!

Do you read threads in here anymore chok

Garchomp being legal is so earlier this week.

ALSO KYUREM-B IS CURRENTLY BEING TESTED FOR OU YEP OKAY SMOGON

Spoiler

It's actually really fun to use ;-;

 

[choknater]

hahah my bad i haven't played in a while