Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[kirbyraeg]

Scizor has problems with waters that actually run some speed. Babiri DDtar with fire punch can deal with a set-up SD scizor on the revenge-kill as a +2 LO BP won't still KO him, and no idiot will switch their scizor out of a tyranitar. He also loses a lot of bulk with LO recoil and no HP investment, and Zapdos can still switch in and wall him reliably, and can KO with either Thunderbolt or Heat Wave. Standard Defensive pokemon like Celebi and Jirachi will still outspeed you unless you run Jolly and still have HP Fire/Thunder Wave to ruin your day. Gyarados still ****s you up, and anything that can burn you will still cause you problems (like that new Water/Ghost).

 

[UltiMario]

The thing is, Magnezone only comes in to kill steels. You'd need steel bait to get rid of Magnezone.

And that would also assume they don't switch, and if they don't it means they have bad team synergy, which means they have a bad team.

This entire strategy is dependent on an opponent to be stupid enough to leave in a Pokemon on a Pokemon that they have no chance of beating.

Or alternatively you could revenge Heatran and Magnezone with HP Ground Scarf Shanderaa, of which can also pick off weakened Zapdos with Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

I'd also like to mention that you need about two SR switch-ins worth of residual damage to KO Shanderaa with +2 Bullet Punch, which essentially makes it a more frail Magnezone without a Superpower weakness.

 

[kirbyraeg]

The thing is, Magnezone only comes in to kill steels. You'd need steel bait to get rid of Magnezone.

Don't most steels have EQ? Just give them an occa berry.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Don't most steels have EQ? Just give them an occa berry.

You're forgetting Roost just to toy with removing the Electric-type weakness.

 

[kirbyraeg]

That's gotta be the best ninja'd edit ever.

 

[UltiMario]

No wonder it made no sense.

 

[Circa]

Don't most steels have EQ? Just give them an occa berry.

Metagross and Bronzong, and on a very rare occurence, Forretress. Oh, and SD Empoleon.

That's seriously the only group of Steels with EQ or pretty much any other move that can KO Magnezone that it's actually willing to come in on. Assuming we're talking about the Steel Killer set of course. And in the case of that particular set, it can just give itself Magnet Rise if it wants. As for the ScarfZone set, it's probably never bothering to come in on Bronzong and isn't coming in on Metagross unless it's below 50%. SD Empoleon is just lol and Forretress is probably running a Shed Shell.

The main threats that Magnezone focuses on are Jirachi, Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Nattorei (am I missing any?). And it mostly comes in on the revenge kill due to almost all of them having a way to beat its face in if the opponent predicts right. Jirachi could be a T-Wave set, Scizor could Superpower or U-Turn, Forretress could use EQ, Skarm could phaze, and well...Nattorei doesn't really do anything. But like with Forretress and Skarmory, it's probably running a Shed Shell.

 

[UltiMario]

Since when does Empoleon have a Fire weakness and need an Occa Berry.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I figured out the answer.

Steel bait, then bring in your own magnezone. With HP Ground.

 

[Pluvia]

I dunno what Scizors you're fighting but since I started counting yesterday I've sweeped 15 teams using Scizor.

 

[Circa]

Since when does Empoleon have a Fire weakness and need an Occa Berry.

That was totally the whole point of my post.

Although to be serious, Empoleon was included more on you assuming the use of a Wacan Berry instead. Or more just realizing how rare SD Empoleon is to begin with (I mean seriously how many people use that). Either one works.

And HP Ground Magnezone makes more sense than HP Fire Magnezone in general anyway. Or at least on a Scarf set. You have a 4x resistance to Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Forretress and Nattorei probably have a Shed Shell anyway. So anything that actually really cares about HP Fire suddenly doesn't care about it anyway. And HP Ground could give you a KO on Heatran, which could possibly be important (note that ScarfZone isn't coming in on Heatran unless it knows it's not Scarf (and thereby can usually assume whether it's Shuca or not as well)).

 

[UltiMario]

The reason why Magnezone even runs HP Fire rather than spamming Tbolt is because of Forry EQ and +2 LO Scizor BP can like 2HKO zone.

 

[Circa]

+2 LO Scizor BP can like 2HKO zone.

I just lol'd.

Change BP to either Brick Break or Superpower and we might be getting somewhere.

And I already talked about the whole Forretress thing. I guess that's just personal preference though.

 

[Pluvia]

Roobushin has been deemed worthy enough to make my team. Though I love my Cradily he's the only one I can sacrifice to make room for Roo.

 

[Kofu]

You're running Cradily?

There's your Scizor problem.

 

[kirbyraeg]

If anything I'd say running something like colbur-berry Shandera over cradily would solve many problems, with Psychic over Energy ball to get the reliable 2hko on opposing roobushin.

 

[UltiMario]

You you could use Latios and Draco Meteor the *****, with LO it does like 80%, I'm guessing with Specs it'll OHKO under most normal circumstances

 

[kirbyraeg]

I was just naming something that doesn't get ****ed over by scizor (running HP Fire sucks on something as fast as a base 110).

 

[Kofu]

Working on the basics of a Wi-fi stall team...

Here are some options so far:
-Hippowdon
-Tyranitar
-Vaporeon
-Tentacruel
-Mamanbou
-Nattorei
-Erufuun
-Rankurusu
-Barujiina
-Altaria
-Dusknoir
-Spiritomb
-Desukaan
-Shandera
-Slowbro (Regeneration would be nice though)
-Forretress
-Drapion
-Blissey
-Donphan
-Porygon2
-Metagross
-Heatran
-Cobalon
-Pendoraa
-Clefable
-Magnezone
-Nidoqueen

And... yeah. I dunno where to go. Unless I use a glitch from Generation 3, I can't use Wish Blissey (obviously), so the Wisher is a bit of a problem. I kind of want a Pokémon with Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, but it would be hard to fit it in.

 

[mood4food77]

let's see with what you have:

porygon2 @ prevo stone is a beast
hippowdon sets up SS, rocks, and can roar away opponents
forretress can set up toxic spikes, spikes, and be your spinner, but only one of the two spikes since it makes forrey great set up bait
tentacruel can set up toxic spikes while having great neutral coverage and good synergy

which gives you a decent defensive core, leaving you with some needs
shandera can work as your revenge killer and your fighting type switch in

i have no clue who cobalon is, it's not on serebii, so i think you have a typo

this leaves you with a free slot, it's not great but it's a start...i guess

 

[Wave⁂]

I was just naming something that doesn't get ****ed over by scizor (running HP Fire sucks on something as fast as a base 110).

Not much is at 110 Speed, though. There's a lot just underneath it.

 

[Circa]

i have no clue who cobalon is, it's not on serebii, so i think you have a typo

Cobalon is the name of the Steel / Fighting "Heart" legendary. It's under Kobaruon on Serebii now.

Erufuun
Nattorei w/ Shed Shell/Lefties
Pory2 w/ Prevo Stone
Tentacruel
Burungerusu

Best Subseeder in the game, best Spiker/SR user in the game (meaning the best at setting up both, not one or the other), a super bulky mofo with an awesome ****-over ability, Toxic Spikes and synergy, and bulky spin blocker. Desukan can be put in the last slot instead if you want. From here, idk. I think Zapdos might be decent on this team though, so it might be something to look into if you can even get it (or are willing to). I suck at making stall teams, so I'm not sure how good this could be in such an offensive metagame. Or if it's even good to begin with.

 

[Wave⁂]

Burungeru could be replaced with Politoed. Losing the Fighting immunity really hurts, but healing Tentacruel, giving Pory2 Thunder, and softening HP Fires thrown at Nattorei could be fun.

 

[Circa]

Burungeru could be replaced with Politoed. Losing the Fighting immunity really hurts, but healing Tentacruel, giving Pory2 Thunder, and softening HP Fires thrown at Nattorei could be fun.

I was going to say Politoed somewhere for the sake of Drizzle keeping some big threats in check and naturally holding the team together, but because it's all in-game wifi he doesn't have access to Drizzle Politoed yet. :\

 

[kirbyraeg]

Vappy fills both of your needs.

Wish
Protect
Boil Over
Heal Bell

 

[Circa]

Vappy fills both of your needs.

Wish
Protect
Boil Over
Heal Bell

Holy **** I totally missed that criteria.

Too bad Forretress is mostly outclassed by Nattorei, because Rapid Spin and Toxic Spike support are so great for stall (especially if you have Erufuun) that it almost seems like a necessity. But Forretress is the only one to do both outside of Tentacruel. And spinblocker support is also a rather big necessity, which means you're basically left with Desukan, Dusclops, or Burungeru in this new age.

An option is to run Vaporeon over Pory2, and then maybe run Desukan / Dusclops in Burungeru's place? Mummy could be fun, and Pressure could be too if you could manage to keep Dusclops alive easily enough. The other option would be to run Forretress over Tentacruel and keep Burungeru.

Or do none of it. That's cool too.

 

[xX'Mitsurugi'Xx]

If you thought being forced to have certain pokemon to deal with Blissey and Heatran was annoying, the you're goin to really enjoy (sarcasm) playing around with the Meta Game of Generation 5. With pokemon abilities that borderline absurd and pokemon with stall games that are invincible with out having put out Toxic Spikes, this new generation has proven to be the most limiting of all the past gens.
In this generation, First priority moves are a must, Must, MUST. Often times you'll find yourself being swept by pokemon who get a 2.0 boost in speed just by having access to sand storm and with out these moves, you're fair game for being swept.
Another must have move is Toxic Spikes. With out this crippling invincible stall pokemon (which are very fast and take no set-up time)... they'll take out 2-4 pokemon before you have a chance to even land one hit on them.
There are quite a few other things that I havn't listed, but it's just a large headache sometimes and really limits the creativity that one may of had in past gens... The new meta game can be fun and really interesting. All past gen pokemon have been revised with new attacks and abilities, aswell as new pokemon to choose from. If the tiers do not fix some of these "advantages" the new meta game is going to take the term "cookie cutter" to the next level.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I sense a rise in Breloom useage.

A large rise.

 

[Kofu]

I hate Burungeru for some reason, I just really dislike its design. Plus all the (apparently reasonable) hype for it. I don't use Pokémon I don't like. It's the same reason Skarmory isn't on there, lol.

Desukaan gets Haze but not Pain Split, which is unfortunate. Disable could be a good way to force opponents out, too. Altaria gets Perish Song and Roost, and it resists almost all of Tyranitar's weaknesses. It also has Natural Cure, so it doesn't care about status. Heal Bell could also fit on it.

I really want to use Barujiina, but her resistances aren't all that great. Knock Off/Whirlwind/Taunt/Roost with Dust-proof seems really solid, too.

The Toxic Spike user is one of my biggest dilemmas, since there are only three of them that are really worth using. Tentacruel is probably the best, though its weaknesses really hurt it. Nidoqueen has nice resistances to Rock, Bug, Electric, and Fighting, but has a hard time doing damage. Drapion is good on the physical side and is immune to Critical Hits, but it really doesn't have many useful resistances (Grass, Poison, Psychic, Ghost, and Dark). It support movepool is nice, though, and it gets a STAB Pursuit.

Erufuun, while nice, is incredibly fragile. Nattorei looks really nice, and is probably guaranteed.

Shandera has some very impressive resistances (Normal, Fire, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Poison, Bug, Steel) and can actually pose an offensive threat when needed.

I may do something like this:

-Tyranitar
-Altaria
-Drapion
-Vaporeon
-Nattorei
-Shandera

But then I don't have a spinner. :/ It might also not be a good idea to have my first team be one that takes quite a bit of knowledge, haha.

 

[Fuelbi]

If you need a spinner, Dyuruuzu (or however you spell it) is pretty good as a rapid spinner from what I've seen.

 

[Pluvia]

You're running Cradily?

There's your Scizor problem.

Cradily with Curse, Recover, Rock Slide and Earthquake walls and kills everything bar Fighting. You'd be surprised how much people don't know what's super effective against it, the amount of people that throw fire at it is unbelievable, and even a Calm Minded Ice Beam from Suicune isn't able to 2HKO it in Tyrans Sandstorm. And it's ability to completely destroy phazing and SubSeeding teams is fantastic.

If anything I'd say running something like colbur-berry Shandera over cradily would solve many problems, with Psychic over Energy ball to get the reliable 2hko on opposing roobushin.

Shandera is too easy to kill so wont really gel well with my team from what I've seen. Honch can Sucker Punch it, Gengar can Shadow Ball it, Tyran can Pursuit it and Roo can Payback it. All of this 0HKOs it, bar maybe Pursuit which needs Expert Belt and SR damage.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Shandera is too easy to kill so wont really gel well with my team from what I've seen. Honch can Sucker Punch it, Gengar can Shadow Ball it, Tyran can Pursuit it and Roo can Payback it. All of this 0HKOs it, bar maybe Pursuit which needs Expert Belt and SR damage.

I can't believe you're making me do this...

ScarfTar's Crunch vs. ColburShandera: 56.32%-66.67%
CBTar's Pursuit vs. ColburShandera: 45.98%-54.41%
LO Honchkrow's Sucker Punch vs. ColburShandera: 76.25%-90.04%
CB Weavile's Night Slash vs. ColburShandera: 68.20%-80.26%
Scarf Sazando's Dark Pulse vs. ColburShandera: 58.62%-69.35%
+1 Roobushin's Payback vs. ColburShandera: 63.60%-75.10%
LO Absol's Sucker Punch vs. ColburShandera: 78.16%-92.34%
LO Sharpedo's Crunch vs. ColburShandera: 73.95%-87.36% (same damage as Aqua Jet)
LO Gengar's Shadow Ball vs. KasibShandera: 71.26%-83.91%


All these calcs were done with a no-defense investment Shandera and with max-attack EVs, +atk nature except for stuff like Weavile. Mostly this is just to demonstrate with a bit of physical bulk these KO's could be avoided, and these specific threats could be lured/trapped and subsequently eliminated. Consider the fact also that with a resist-berry you could potentially bluff a choice set.

 

[UltiMario]

Hey look an unintelligent post! Let's dissect it!

If you thought being forced to have certain pokemon to deal with Blissey and Heatran was annoying, the you're goin to really enjoy (sarcasm) playing around with the Meta Game of Generation 5. With pokemon abilities that borderline absurd and pokemon with stall games that are invincible with out having put out Toxic Spikes, this new generation has proven to be the most limiting of all the past gens.

Translation: "Oh man I don't like it when generations add good new Pokemon! I only want them all to suck because I can't deal with adapting my strategy to fit OH MY GOD Pokemon that weren't in Generation Four! On top of that, I'm going to judge a metagame that hasn't even stabilized yet and call it ****ty and limiting!"

This is absolute bull****, and you know it. This is a new generation, there are new threats. Learn, adapt, deal with it.

In this generation, First priority moves are a must, Must, MUST. Often times you'll find yourself being swept by pokemon who get a 2.0 boost in speed just by having access to sand storm and with out these moves, you're fair game for being swept.

However, THIS I can agree on. Speed is more important now than it was in Gen V.
Mainly though, pack Fighting-type priority (or something that's redic fast and fighting, like Blaziken after a speed boost, this requires Protect to get it though) and you're good to go, seeing as it hits a lot of the blazing-fast threats for SE or a strong Neutral.

Another must have move is Toxic Spikes. With out this crippling invincible stall pokemon (which are very fast and take no set-up time)... they'll take out 2-4 pokemon before you have a chance to even land one hit on them.

THIS, however, is so ****ing wrong I cannot even explain it. There is no wall that is anywhere close it invincible, especially without set-up. Erufuun is also like the only wall that IS fast (and it's only a wall because of priority Subseed making it last a little TOO long), and anyone with half a brain can sacrifice something to break the sub, then you send in something to finish it off. That's 1 Pokemon, not 2-4. Unless you really can't deal with it, in which scenario I suggest you trash your team and start all over again.

On the topic of toxic spikes, I've never used them once so far, and I've been able to deal with most stall teams. My only issue at all is Blissey, and that's because my team is primarily special with only one Physical attacker that can hit for SE Damage.

There are quite a few other things that I havn't listed, but it's just a large headache sometimes and really limits the creativity that one may of had in past gens... The new meta game can be fun and really interesting. All past gen pokemon have been revised with new attacks and abilities, aswell as new pokemon to choose from. If the tiers do not fix some of these "advantages" the new meta game is going to take the term "cookie cutter" to the next level.

If there are so many other things, list them, come on, you can do it!

Also, the one thing that is between that cookie cutter theory and the truth is playstyle and creativity. Think Gen 5 is limiting your creativity? Wrong, you're not being creative enough, instead, think outside the box, think of something new and different, that you haven't tried before, maybe some team synergy you haven't seen others use. The metagame doesn't decide how cookie cutter teams are, YOU DO.

That's all it takes, just keep on trucking and a little more creativity with teams. It's not hard to do.

 

[Moozle]

Yeah, i'd say this generation is LESS cookie cutter than ever before simply because of the huge amount of pokemon that got really useful new abilities. It's exciting having so many options to work with.

Also, on the Magnezone discussion from earlier, how do you deal with Natorrei without HP fire?

 

[UltiMario]

Oh...

You can't. Literally. Leech Seed + Lefties beats out HP Ground Damage.

 

[Pluvia]

I can't believe you're making me do this...

ScarfTar's Crunch vs. ColburShandera: 56.32%-66.67%
CBTar's Pursuit vs. ColburShandera: 45.98%-54.41%
LO Honchkrow's Sucker Punch vs. ColburShandera: 76.25%-90.04%
CB Weavile's Night Slash vs. ColburShandera: 68.20%-80.26%
Scarf Sazando's Dark Pulse vs. ColburShandera: 58.62%-69.35%
+1 Roobushin's Payback vs. ColburShandera: 63.60%-75.10%
LO Absol's Sucker Punch vs. ColburShandera: 78.16%-92.34%
LO Sharpedo's Crunch vs. ColburShandera: 73.95%-87.36% (same damage as Aqua Jet)
LO Gengar's Shadow Ball vs. KasibShandera: 71.26%-83.91%


All these calcs were done with a no-defense investment Shandera and with max-attack EVs, +atk nature except for stuff like Weavile. Mostly this is just to demonstrate with a bit of physical bulk these KO's could be avoided, and these specific threats could be lured/trapped and subsequently eliminated. Consider the fact also that with a resist-berry you could potentially bluff a choice set.

Never met a Colbur Shan. My Tar uses Expert Belt and my Honch uses LO which is a 0HKO even with Colbur after SR. And you have to take Tar's Sandstorm into account.

Shan can take down my Tar but Tar effectively takes it down too as Sucker Punch or Bullet Punch from Honch or Scizor will finish it off before it can do anything more of use.

That's the problem with Shan, its inability to keep switching thanks to SR and the fact that most Pokes that see common usage can take it down or render it useless after one attack. Yeah it hits hard but Gengar also hits hard and has the speed too.

 

[Kofu]

Oh...

You can't. Literally. Leech Seed + Lefties beats out HP Ground Damage.

Singly effective HP Ground is less effective than singly resisted Thunderbolt.

HP Fighting would be more useful if it didn't make it reduce all stats.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I wonder if trick room and gravity teams are going to get any improvements?

 

[Moozle]

I've seen a lot of trick room teams with Roopushin and Rankurusu. Speaking of Rankurusu, I hate it very much since I have a bulky team that pretty much relies on toxic stalling other bulky teams out. I always forget it has magic guard.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I've been testing Deoxys-D with Recycle/Red Card abuse.

Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Nature: Bold
Ability: Pressure
252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
- Recycle
- Recover
- Taunt
- Cosmic Power

Red Card is a single-use move that activates whenever someone attacks you, forcing the attacker to switch randomly (after taking damage). Recycle... recycles it, so you get something like a pseudo Roar/Whirlwind on the fattest pokemon ever.

Early game you can use it to check to many offensive threats. 252 HP / 204 Def allows it to switch in on Adamant, non-LO Doryuuzu as it SDs, survive a +2 X-Scissor after Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage, and Recover as Red Card forces it out. Late game, provided you set up some layers of spikes and rocks, you can stall with Cosmic Power/Taunt/Recycle; after a few Cosmic Powers it can take SE hits from pretty much anything. It only really loses to faster status/Taunt users and crits.