Input Delay in Brawl

[teluoborg]

Why not put him on ignore list instead ? It's simpler and has way less consequences than premeditated multiple homicide.

 

[DeLux]

Play nice please

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

It benefits both in inconsistent (a.k.a. competitively bad) ways. It reduces an emphasis on player skill and emphasizes chance. If you wish that Brawl were more like competitive Pokemon then this is a good thing. For the rest of us, it's bad.

This appears to say that it is bad because it affects both in an inconsistent fashion which is inherently bad for competition. This is not him just saying it is bad.

Also I dont think both players having the same lag as a big difference as you can't know what the lag is for the previous move so you are still dealing with an unknown lag.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

And what he was saying was already covered by dettadeus (that all inputs made after that would have the same lag), and after I said that he just resorted to "IT'S BAD IT'S BAD IT'S BAD".



Aww, thank you.

you're just not getting it. Please try to read what I'm saying without just discounting it. If I have to accurately respond to Falco's spotdodge, I have to know how much he's lagging in order to know how much I'll lag. That's impossible to tell. If Falco is spotdodging, all you can do is respond to the spotdodge, not the Falco player's input. So if Falco's spotdodge is delayed by 2 frames, that means my response will be delayed by 2 frames, but there's absolutely no way for me to know that. If I see him spotdodge (again, all I saw was his spotdodge, I have no idea how many frames of lag he experienced), I attempt to respond as if there's no lag, and there's 2 frames of lag instead, I will miss.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Bob But he doesn't address how it's a big deal, he just says "randomness = bad" as if literally anything that can't be predicted perfectly down to the frame completely ruins the game, despite what it actually does. He then compares it to competitive Pokemon, as if two goddamn frames of lag that both players experience is even close to as bad as every attack having a damage spread of 95-105%, every attack having a chance to do double damage, pretty much every Ice type move having the chance to incapacitate someone indefinitely, or almost every useful move with 100 or more base power having a chance to miss.

@PJB I see what you're saying now, but why would they be spot dodging before the opponent attacks? Realistically the spot dodger is going to be reacting to something, putting him at the disadvantage.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually realistically people spot-dodge expecting an attack, not reacting to one.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Why not just powershield it when it comes instead of taking a risk like that? Unless you're predicting a grab, of course.

 

[Exdeath]

Because Brawl's spot dodges are a lot more viable than any other game that I know of. In Melee, the best (Fox') spot dodge is on parity with Brawl's worst (Bowser). This is exacerbated by the majority of Brawl's cast having frame data that is below the average fighting game character's.

 

[Biz_R_0]

But still, the spot dodge would be prediction based whereas the powershield would be reaction based, meaning that if you can react fast enough you won't even need to predict and do the riskier option. The only reason I could think of for spot dodging would be a grab or a multi-hit move like Wolf's ftilt, or if you're already shielding and it's about to break.

 

[dettadeus]

For those claiming that this is more helpful to offense than defense, Reflex' examples of punishing dodges still stands.

For example, Meta Knight Dtilting Falco's spot dodge with 0 frames of lag requires him to input it on frames 17-19. With 2 frames of lag requires him to input it on frames 15-17. In other words, the only consistent frame of the spot dodge to aim for is frame 17, with the other frames causing Meta Knight to either whiff Dtilt on the spot dodge, or have it power shielded (a.k.a. guaranteed Usmash).

Normally it's not unreasonable to expect top players to hit this frame perfect window, except for one thing: Due to the ambiguous number of input lag, it's impractical to practice such a timing; it's virtually impossible to know if you've hit on exactly frame 17 without frame advance.

I find this discovery particularly vexing because I now have to second guess recorded frame data.

You have to keep in mind a few things with this though:
The first is that, as far as I've tested, it's like there's a 60% chance of having 1 frame of lag, a 30% chance of having no lag, and a 10% chance of having 2 frames of lag. Worst case scenario happens maybe 10% of the time, and if further testing proves that the amount of lag is the same until inputs stop being made entirely and all animations finish (return to idle, i guess?) then whatever you're at in the beginning of the match likely will stay for a massive chunk of the match. This means that you have a 90% chance of there not being 2 frames of lag until both players stop what they're doing entirely.

The second is that it doesn't affect buffered moves so long as the delay doesn't push you out of the buffer window (in which case it would still be within 2 frames of when the move would buffer).

oh wait read that wrong, powershielded uh
(fixed)
The third thing to consider is reaction time on Falco's part. If it's not buffered, considering 2 frames of lag pushes Dtilt to get powershielded the frame after Falco's spotdodge, with ~12 frame reaction time and two frames of lag tacked on (because MK's dtilt animation is still playing, 2 frames of lag are still applied) you would be unable to punish a PS'd MK Dtilt with Usmash. With Falco's spotdodge starting as frame 1, you see Dtilt powershielded frame 23, frame 35 you input Usmash, frame 37 it starts to come out, frame 45 it hits. MK has 12 frames of cooldown after missing the Dtilt, making his first actionable frame (with a buffered action) frame 33 of that exchange, so he'd have ample time if Usmash wasn't buffered.
Counting from seeing the Dtilt whiff and not from when it's powershielded would make Usmash come out 2 frames earlier, which still wouldn't be enough to catch the MK.
If Usmash was buffered then it would come out around frame 31, which would be fast enough to catch MK if his dtilt was spaced badly. Last I checked, Falco's Usmash doesn't have the horizontal range of MK's Dtilt though.
More likely would be the Falco buffering another spotdodge, a jab, grab, etc. If they buffer another spot dodge you get another chance and know you have to go earlier or use a different attack. If they buffer a jab then oh well, you get grabbed. Buffer a grab, same deal.



Also, you'd know if you hit on exactly frame 17 because you would hit Falco out of his spotdodge.


Later this week I will definitely play an elongated match in Dolphin to see if input lag is constant if inputs/animations are always happening.

Also frame data shouldn't have to be redone, or if it does, the method for collecting it wasn't very good. It's kind of obvious when your character is standing in idle for two frames before actually changing position for an attack, and Brawlbox can show the first frame of any animation so you can double check when the animation actually starts.

 

[Zankoku]

But still, the spot dodge would be prediction based whereas the powershield would be reaction based, meaning that if you can react fast enough you won't even need to predict and do the riskier option. The only reason I could think of for spot dodging would be a grab or a multi-hit move like Wolf's ftilt, or if you're already shielding and it's about to break.

By your logic, you might as well jab anyone out of grabs and powershield both hits of Wolf's ftilt (yes, you easily can), because forget options that aren't optimal and are only useful for their huge window of avoiding potential threats.

 

[Lovage]

LOL

During my work on updating the code that adds analog shoulder buttons and C-stick inputs to the game, I discovered that the button press function mapped to the C-stick isn't processed immediately as one might expect, resulting in up-smashes out of shield with the new code when pressing up on the C-stick to jump using its analog input (the C-stick analog jump input was going through before the C-stick button smash). It turned out that they didn't get processed for up to two frames after the input was read by the game.

i hate to barge in here as dat melee player. but i read magus' quote in the OP and laughed my *** of.

i experienced that glitch occuring on day ONE of brawl's release. accidently c-stick usmashing when i meant to jump oos. i experienced that **** happening on the first day.

LOL LOL LOL

 

[Magus420]

I can't see this being tied to what animation a player is in at all. The controller inputs in question are being updated at all times (outside of matches as well), and are at a lower level than things like what animation a player is in. They are already delayed while they are in the raw format of Gamecube/Wii Slot _'s A/B/X/Y/etc in static memory before being converted to Attack/Special/Jump/etc and stored to the player object in dynamic memory set to read from that port (port # isn't the same as player #). For something within the player object (their animation) to work backwards and affect the controller ports makes no sense, and the player object doesn't even exist outside of a match.

It seems more like the timing between the sets of inputs is framerate/frame drops related or something, considering changing the game speed to 2/3 consistently changes the delay timing to 2 frames when switching back to 1x speed (1/4 and 1/2 just use interpolation and not a change in framerate).


Lovage, that's talking about a code made for analog c-stick inputs and buffer jumps with c-stick interacting with the delayed inputs for everything else in the game. The code used the non-laggy controller inputs while the normal c-stick stuff used the laggy ones, so it'd buffer jump with the code I made while the c-stick smash was delayed and went through during the jump. If you got that in brawl it'd be for a different reason (maybe buffered an up input to jump without realizing it then also went to jump with c-stick or something).

 

[Biz_R_0]

By your logic

This is where I stopped reading. "By that logic" posts are fundamentally flawed because you're automatically making a huge assumption as to how the other person thinks, which is something you will never truly know. Then you throw away any limitation to that train of thought the other person may have and take their point to an extreme, due to your extremely limited knowledge of said train of thought. You don't know what my logic is, and pretending to do so just to stretch my supposed train of thought as far as you want it to makes what you have to say, by my logic, not worth reading.

@Lovage you didn't think to investigate this? Also thanks for not being "that Melee guy" as we already have a very persistent and annoying one.

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, then by the reasoning of your post -- and here you may go ahead and read my previous response where you left off.

However, by your self-proclaimed logic, don't bother.

 

[Biz_R_0]

you might as well jab anyone out of grabs and powershield both hits of Wolf's ftilt (yes, you easily can), because forget options that aren't optimal and are only useful for their huge window of avoiding potential threats.

...and getting wrecked for guessing wrong. I'm not saying spot dodges are useless, but in most situations I find powershielding to be safer.

 

[Zankoku]

Except for automagical powershields where you're holding shield during the recovery of something and you just happened to have your shield pop up in time to block the opponent's punish attempt, people generally don't react with powershields because most people go for options that have a startup under 10 frames (being 1/6 or roughly 0.17 seconds, incredibly difficult to react to, and even more difficult to perform the input on an unmodded Gamecube controller due to the resistance provided by the trigger's spring combined with shield only registering on a full press). Along with having only a 3-frame window, the powershield can be seen far more often as something used to block projectiles due to their long travel time or telegraphed approaches for similar reasons (see someone flying at you, time a powershield anticipating any attack at all), which is a timing-based action rather than reaction-based.

Spot dodges are strong for multiple reasons, including avoiding a whole duration of active frames, suffering no blockstun, not getting pushed back from any attacks, and of course being capable of avoiding grabs. Where it is subtly unintuitive is that it is strongest if you time it early, so that the animation ends immediately after dodging whatever action your opponent committed to.

I don't think powershielding and spotdodging have much overlap in defensive situations, overall.

 

[MegaRobMan]

For those claiming that this is more helpful to offense than defense, Reflex' examples of punishing dodges still stands.

For example, Meta Knight Dtilting Falco's spot dodge with 0 frames of lag requires him to input it on frames 17-19. With 2 frames of lag requires him to input it on frames 15-17. In other words, the only consistent frame of the spot dodge to aim for is frame 17, with the other frames causing Meta Knight to either whiff Dtilt on the spot dodge, or have it power shielded (a.k.a. guaranteed Usmash).

Normally it's not unreasonable to expect top players to hit this frame perfect window, except for one thing: Due to the ambiguous number of input lag, it's impractical to practice such a timing; it's virtually impossible to know if you've hit on exactly frame 17 without frame advance.

I find this discovery particularly vexing because I now have to second guess recorded frame data.

Ban metaknight

Actually he is.

How have you not identified this man as a troll yet.

*Look at name
*Look at picture
*Read responses
*408 posts in a month

This man is not a troll, he's a genius.

This is where I stopped reading. "By that logic" posts are fundamentally flawed because you're automatically making a huge assumption as to how the other person thinks, which is something you will never truly know. Then you throw away any limitation to that train of thought the other person may have and take their point to an extreme, due to your extremely limited knowledge of said train of thought. You don't know what my logic is, and pretending to do so just to stretch my supposed train of thought as far as you want it to makes what you have to say, by my logic, not worth reading.

See, this is awesome.

He can completely get away with dismissing your entire claims because he found the secret way out.

Genius.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I just realized that this whole lag thing makes powershielding a lot less useful anyway, so preemptive spot dodging would be better. Still, it's not like people would just spot dodge over and over again, as that would lead too predictability and it would become easy to punish.

 

[Delta-cod]

Except for the part where you see people repeatedly spotdodge ALL THE TIME and get away with it.

 

[Biz_R_0]

How have you not identified this man as a troll yet.

*Look at name
*Look at picture
*Read responses
*408 posts in a month

How does any of that prove anything? Unless we're going by the new definition of troll that's basically "someone I dislike".

Also, is 400 in a month really that odd?

See, this is awesome.

He can completely get away with dismissing your entire claims because he found the secret way out.

Genius.

By your logic, pointing out a logical fallacy is also an "easy way out" even if the fallacy is the central point, because you're just attacking the fact that it's a fallacy instead of directly refuting what they're saying.

Also, feel free to completely ignore the fact that I did answer later on. Whatever benefits your point.

Except for the part where you see people repeatedly spotdodge ALL THE TIME and get away with it.

Just punish it, you know it's coming so just wait it out and hit them during the recovery frames. Or you could just do a lingering or long lasting attack, those are great as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just punish it, you know it's coming so just wait it out and hit them during the recovery frames. Or you could just do a lingering or long lasting attack, those are great as well.

That's just it--You don't know it's coming, because if you try to hard-read it, Ice Climbers chaingrab you, Snake F-Tilts you, etc., etc, roughly half the time. A lingering attack often means the late hit of a Dash Attack, the second half of Mach Tornado, and other moves that don't do much damage. With the exception of a select few characters, it's just not worth it to bother going in like that. You (or me or anyone else) don't have the ability to account for all of those options without being at a certain distance away or abusing luck-based spotdodging yourself, so spacing revolves around the same three or four options almost all the time, with spotdodging often "accidentally" working and people attacking you halfway through your spotdodge, giving you massive frame advantage.

That's just part of how the game works. Watch any of the best players and see how they spotdodge pseudo-randomly in close-quarters combat. It's because it's often safe when they guess wrong and they can luck out and get a huge punish sometimes, too.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

By your logic, pointing out a logical fallacy is also an "easy way out" even if the fallacy is the central point, because you're just attacking the fact that it's a fallacy instead of directly refuting what they're saying.

Also, feel free to completely ignore the fact that I did answer later on. Whatever benefits your point.

What happened to "'by your logic' posts are fundamentally flawed"?

 

[Delta-cod]

That's just it--You don't know it's coming, because if you try to hard-read it, Ice Climbers chaingrab you, Snake F-Tilts you, etc., etc, roughly half the time. A lingering attack often means the late hit of a Dash Attack, the second half of Mach Tornado, and other moves that don't do much damage. With the exception of a select few characters, it's just not worth it to bother going in like that. You (or me or anyone else) don't have the ability to account for all of those options without being at a certain distance away or abusing luck-based spotdodging yourself, so spacing revolves around the same three or four options almost all the time, with spotdodging often "accidentally" working and people attacking you halfway through your spotdodge, giving you massive frame advantage.

That's just part of how the game works. Watch any of the best players and see how they spotdodge pseudo-randomly in close-quarters combat. It's because it's often safe when they guess wrong and they can luck out and get a huge punish sometimes, too.

Infinite times this post.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What happened to "'by your logic' posts are fundamentally flawed"?

infinite times this post

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Also, is 400 in a month really that odd?

I made about 1000 in a month once.
That was the trolliest month of my life.

 

[Magus420]

Here's the code to fix it if people wish to use it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331578

I also included a version that lets you control 2 characters with 1 controller and only the 2nd having the fix applied, so you can compare them side by side.

 

[Biz_R_0]

That's just it--You don't know it's coming

Did you read his post? If your opponent doing it all the time, then it would be obvious that he will do it whenever they can. If you're in a situation when you would be best off doing X, and you know your opponent is going to counter it with Y because that's what he's been doing all game whenever he can, then do Z to counter it.

I do agree that this makes spot dodging more powerful, but people aren't going to keep doing it over and over again because it will become predictable, and in a game like Brawl where reads are so important, you can't afford to be predictable.

What happened to "'by your logic' posts are fundamentally flawed"?

I thought you people (not literally everyone, just those who did) would understand the point of me saying that and not take it literally, as it could not have been more clear unless I flat-out said it. Apparently I was wrong to do so, not a mistake I'll be making in the future.

I said that to show him the flaw in that logic. I didn't actually mean that as a serious response, but he thought I was just making an excuse when I made the deconstruction of "by your logic" posts, so I thought he'd get it if I used it against him so he could see why it was wrong. Do you honestly think I would seriously do something I just said was wrong and bad not even an hour before? That ANYONE would do something so blatantly hypocritical in a literal manner? If you did, I don't even know what to say because how that could be taken in the literal sense is beyond my comprehension.

inb4 "wow nice try we ALL know you're just trying to cover your ***"

 

[Vermanubis]

This explains far more than I can probably imagine There'd be times when I'd use a CC, and no matter how valiantly I struggled to input a DAir, a NAir would come out because. Same with wizkicks and side-bs, since I'd flick the stick diagonally from a DAir to perform a side-b and despite me observing the exact placement of my thumb, the outcome was variable. When I used a GCC, I had next to zero problems with this (and my tournament performance improved significantly). I'm not entirely sure this is the reason, but it makes a lot of sense that having a 4-frame reduction in lag by switching to a GCC would yield a patent change.

Not to mention, using a CC was unusually frustrating at times, because I could swear on my life that I shielded or spotdodged in time, but still got stuffed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did you read his post? If your opponent doing it all the time, then it would be obvious that he will do it whenever they can. If you're in a situation when you would be best off doing X, and you know your opponent is going to counter it with Y because that's what he's been doing all game whenever he can, then do Z to counter it.

I do agree that this makes spot dodging more powerful, but people aren't going to keep doing it over and over again because it will become predictable, and in a game like Brawl where reads are so important, you can't afford to be predictable.

Sure, but, I'm talking about it from a practical perspective, is all. Spotdodging is faster than most attacks, especially the ones that would be a reasonably strong punish, meaning that frame advantage is common even when you "guess incorrectly." You don't have to mix it up with one or two especially-powerful options for it to be an incredibly substantial threat.

No half-decent player would just do the same option over and over, and when you miss against Dedede (who has a broken spotdodge to begin with), he chaingrabs you for ~30%, making risk-reward quite skewed.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Reflex fair enough.

@Verm does anyone even use non-GC controllers anymore? Serious question, I've honestly never seen anyone use one in high level play.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Some players totally use wiimotes and wiichucks. They aren't as common as GCC users, for sure, but they're out there.

pretty sure ishy uses wiichuck

 

[Vermanubis]

@Reflex fair enough.

@Verm does anyone even use non-GC controllers anymore? Serious question, I've honestly never seen anyone use one in high level play.

I did up until recently. They're very few and far between, though. Apex is the most recent example of a direct contrast. I used a CC pro during the Ganon Gauntlet and after a bit, I opted to hand my spot over to someone else because I couldn't figure out why I was shielding literally nothing and why I had to be so meticulous and trepidatious with my inputs. The next day though, DLA let me use his GCC, and the problem was almost entirely alleviated--somehow, my shielding, punishes and execution were back on point.

Never touching a CC again. The grand mystery is finally solved. I really cannot fully elucidate how confusing it was to switch between the two and yield such a large disparity.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

@Reflex fair enough.

@Verm does anyone even use non-GC controllers anymore? Serious question, I've honestly never seen anyone use one in high level play.

iirc Razer still uses Wiichuk
I think Fatal still does but I'm not 100% sure.

Not sure about anyone else in high level play that uses them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Georgia has two PR-worthy players that use Wiimote+Nunchuck.

They're around.

 

[infiniteV115]

Tearbear, Razer and Logic all use Wiichuck.
Also there's nothing wrong with 'by your logic posts' (ie pointing out the flaws in the logic used in others' posts...I mean seriously if we can't do this then all we can do is correct false information, but bad logic + true information can easily lead in incorrect conclusions) and the way Ankoku (aisight) used it was perfectly acceptable.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Interesting. I'd like to hear their opinions on this.

@infinite, they're bad because you don't know the other person's logic (unless you can read minds...through the internet), so you're automatically making a strawman of it, saying that they think something that they didn't necessarily think and attacking that non-though as if they thought it. Not only that, but you exaggerate their point to the furthest extreme when they may have put a limit on how far they'd stretch that train of thought, but since your strawman of their logic doesn't have those limitations, you wouldn't even think about that.

Basically, "by your logic" posts make a ton of gigantic assumptions about things you will never know, which I cannot say is good in any form. Aisight put it better as "by the context of your post", as that eliminates the strawman.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually realistically people spot-dodge expecting an attack, not reacting to one.

People spot-dodge expecting an attack, but oftentimes people can punish a spot-dodge on reaction. The unknown lag makes doing so tougher. I haven't been keeping up with convo, so we're probably agreeing here.

Georgia has two PR-worthy players that use Wiimote+Nunchuck.

They're around.

Raptor also uses 'Mote+'Chuck.

 

[infiniteV115]

Logic is used commonly in posts and is easily identifiable. If you think it's impossible to identify the logic in somebody's post and attack it without formulating a strawman argument, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, if I were to use Inui logic and tell you the following:

V115 beat Zinoto and Zinoto beat Ally, therefore V115 is a better player than Ally.

Would you say it would be unreasonable to respond with the following?

But by your logic, Ally is a better player than V115 because Ally beat Mr.R and Mr.R beat V115.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Logic is used commonly in posts and is easily identifiable. If you think it's impossible to identify the logic in somebody's post and attack it without formulating a strawman argument, I don't know what to tell you.

Your logic is not what you said, your logic is the train of thought you had, which you won't know for certain unless they tell you. People can have more reasoning to what they said than you could pick up on.

The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.

I mean, if I were to use Inui logic and tell you the following:
Would you say it would be unreasonable to respond with the following?

By the context of his post, that's certainly a reasonable conclusion. However, he may not think that's a perfect equation and has a reason as to why it would apply to one situation and not to another. This is the secondary problem with "by your logic" posts; even if you correct them, it will look like you're backpedaling or arguing against yourself.