LOL, kid. If you don't know me or anything about this scene, don't respond to me. Please.
-Syn
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Ink Drop Name Change Consideration Thread
- Thread starter ShortFuse
- Start date
- Status
LOL, kid. If you don't know me or anything about this scene, don't respond to me. Please.
-Syn
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
If I don't know you than you're not a pro smasher
/flipped around
I was going to close this thread, but there is some pretty good discussion going on. It wouldn't be fair for me to artificially take the last word here either.
I still think it's pretty silly to argue about a name, because as many people observed, the name will end up being whatever sticks. Calling something what you want to call it is fine and dandy, up to a point.
However there's a lot of potential for confusion if no one can agree on a name. If it starts to become a trend that labels become a political issue with different groups using different names simply because of egos, that's going to look childish and petty to people outside the community. Not to mention the fact that it will create more division and fractures among players.
A good example are the tier lists, and things like wavedashing and L-cancelling. The main reason there are still people who disagree with those concepts, or applying them, is because they don't understand them.
Look at the way other terms came about. Since I have a personal perspective on one, I'll mention "wall of pain." Jiggly's strategy of weaving back and forth using air attacks. I was over at AOB's house one weekend and he started pummeling me with that tactic, which at the time I hadn't seen before, and wasn't really well known on smashboards. Frustrated, told him right there that it was like a wall of pain, because I just couldn't break through it. Somehow it caught on, it was never my idea to try and get people to use the term.
If every player who didn't quite make a name for themself in melee is going to try to break into brawl by actively sitting around and thinking of names, then propagandizing and intensely defending them, that's going to be ridiculous.
The best names are descriptive and memorable.
I still think it's pretty silly to argue about a name, because as many people observed, the name will end up being whatever sticks. Calling something what you want to call it is fine and dandy, up to a point.
However there's a lot of potential for confusion if no one can agree on a name. If it starts to become a trend that labels become a political issue with different groups using different names simply because of egos, that's going to look childish and petty to people outside the community. Not to mention the fact that it will create more division and fractures among players.
A good example are the tier lists, and things like wavedashing and L-cancelling. The main reason there are still people who disagree with those concepts, or applying them, is because they don't understand them.
Look at the way other terms came about. Since I have a personal perspective on one, I'll mention "wall of pain." Jiggly's strategy of weaving back and forth using air attacks. I was over at AOB's house one weekend and he started pummeling me with that tactic, which at the time I hadn't seen before, and wasn't really well known on smashboards. Frustrated, told him right there that it was like a wall of pain, because I just couldn't break through it. Somehow it caught on, it was never my idea to try and get people to use the term.
If every player who didn't quite make a name for themself in melee is going to try to break into brawl by actively sitting around and thinking of names, then propagandizing and intensely defending them, that's going to be ridiculous.
The best names are descriptive and memorable.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
EDIT: Yeah, this was just me getting angry at Falco's flippant attitude, and not appropriate to the discussion, I retract it.
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
when I was like... 13, 14? I make money programming now, and I was getting help from a completely new type of programming(to me), and in no way does that comparison make sense
unreasonable? The name won't change, I can give all the point I need but it won't change that fact.
-The name has stuck already, the majority of active users know what it is
-There stands no reason to change it, it's unique and leaves little room for confusion
unreasonable? The name won't change, I can give all the point I need but it won't change that fact.
-The name has stuck already, the majority of active users know what it is
-There stands no reason to change it, it's unique and leaves little room for confusion
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
First off, I'd like to thank you for keeping the thread open, mod. I know that a lot of rushed, single-line disagreeing posts are on both sides, but there is a discussion somewhere in here. And I'm also sure this will probably just escalate and earn a whole new reason for being closed... but anyway...
If Ink gets obsessed with it, investigates it thoroughly, and discovers many various uses to this move, and actively incorporates this move into his metagame, he might deserve having it named after him.
But right now, all he did was re-notice it.
Why would we need to retain Ink's name? Ink didn't do anything that every player who plays this game won't accidentally do within the first week, or possibly even a day, of play. The subtle naunces of the move, in fact, still need to be worked out. All Ink did was affirm that it exists, after Zauron first posed a question about it. The technical applications aren't worked out. We don't even know if Trip-cancelling can, in fact, be done, or if it has actual merit if it can. Ink didn't pioneer the use of this move in the metagame. Ink didn't perfect it. Ink just said "yup, it's there." Would we name dashing after the first player who did it?
If Ink gets obsessed with it, investigates it thoroughly, and discovers many various uses to this move, and actively incorporates this move into his metagame, he might deserve having it named after him.
But right now, all he did was re-notice it.
RocketDarkness
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 34
21, just for the sake of answering. While I can't guarantee that the age of those on the two sides of the debate are directly correlated, I'd be willing to bet that one side can't see the forest from the trees.
Truthfully, if Zauron was truly the first individual to bring the technique to the community's attention, he should have the only real say in the matter. Whoever illuminates any given technique has every right to have the name reflect his/her taste and we should honor that -- that's how it has always been.
Unfortunately, this is the first case I've seen where the discoverer/s are clearly putting being recognized above creating efficient nomenclature. That's why this has become an issue (and a petty one at that, but an issue nonetheless).
-SynikaL
Unfortunately, this is the first case I've seen where the discoverer/s are clearly putting being recognized above creating efficient nomenclature. That's why this has become an issue (and a petty one at that, but an issue nonetheless).
-SynikaL
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
I beg to differ. Already on other boards I'm seeing "What the heck is Ink Drop?" and when people are shown the clips of it, the "I don't get it, why is this called Ink Drop?". I seriously doubt the same confusion would come from calling it Trip.
Inkslinger
Smash Ace
lol I was on the same boat actually, i discovered melee techniques that later pros got recognition before because i never became that great. But just seeing a technique doesn't give you recognition, you have to implement it and know how to use it like i did. But time will tell what stays, i don't care for now.
Was your old sn SynikaL with a mario avatar? I remember seeing your posts way back like 2002 if so.
Was your old sn SynikaL with a mario avatar? I remember seeing your posts way back like 2002 if so.
RocketDarkness
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 34
No, but once again, someone may know what canceling refers to (removing frames of lag and, in general, performing at a quicker pace), and would thus more easily come to understand what Pivot Dash Canceling is. Heck, I don't know exactly what it entails, but I do know that it involves taking advantage of the pivot frame, due to the use of the term "pivot" and its prior applications in Smash.
You see? You don't have this naturally-evolving vocabulary with Ink Drop.
Lastly, 2 days is hardly enough time for a term to be set in stone, don't be absurd.
You see? You don't have this naturally-evolving vocabulary with Ink Drop.
Lastly, 2 days is hardly enough time for a term to be set in stone, don't be absurd.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
If that is the way its done, then I say that I don't WISH to be recognized for this (I have plenty of better things I'm known for, like the games I have created). I just want the name to make sense and be as descriptive and concise as possible.
I agree this is petty. I thought once Inkslinger himself, in only a few posts after the name was first brought up, suggested it be renamed, that we would quickly come up with a better name and that would be the end of it. He didn't even come up with it or push the name really, Gimpy did.
I had no idea people would be so unreasonable about it that it would descend into a petty argument, but I feel strongly that any basic, core move of the game should have a basic, normal name, or we just open ourselves to mass confusion on message boards for years to come. Just like with Wavedashing, but even worse, since "Ink" has less to do with this move than "Wave" and "dashing" had to do with Wavedashing. Last I looked, the characters don't drop any ink when they do a Trip, but Wavedashing DOES generate waves and looks like some kind of special dash (plus it was a term used in other fighting games before Smash).
You used the move for 2 days in a demo, and you accomplished no more with it than a level 3 CPU did in a video seen a week beforehand. You can't even tell us exactly how its accomplished, how to do it out of an idle, or whether or not you can REALLY cancel it. All you know is that somehow you were able to grab someone behind you out of a dash, but there's a good chance that was actually a Dash Brake Pivot not a Trip-Cancel.
When Wobbling was named, the technique wasn't just implemented, it was perfected. He could tell you exactly how he did it and had spent far more time than you did learning everything about it. Same thing with the Ken Combo. It was perfected, used to great effect in tournaments, and mastered. This is not the same thing. What you accomplished is no more than if someone had gone to a Melee demo and used air-dodge the first time (after it had been seen and analyzed by someone else a week beforehand), then dodged a couple attacks with it and said "hey, I implemented it into my game, so its fine that this other guy is naming the move after me".
This is not the same thing at all and you surely know it. I appreciate that you are being more reasonable about it than Gimpy, saying you are okay with it being named something else, but to claim you deserve it named after you in any way makes you look pretty egomaniacal, and I don't think you are doing yourself a favor to project that image.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
What exactly did you do? You haven't DONE anything yet. Yes, you were the representative of these boards at the E for All demonstration who accidentally tripped more than the others. But you yourself said you all couldn't even recreate it efficiently the next day. Is it an active part of your game? If i want to learn more about tripping, can I watch videos of you playing to see how it is used? Can i observe you to effectively see the usefulness in the metagame?
I can watch a video of Ken play and see the Ken Combo more than once, in many instances. I'm in no way saying Ken was the first to implement it. Maybe he wasn't. But it's named for him, maybe unjustly, because you CAN go observe his play and see it used regularly, and see HOW it's used. You can watch him play to understand it better. Is that true of you?
If you, as a result of this debate, decide to investigate the hell out of tripping and DO make it a serious part of your game, maybe you should deserve a name. But what, exactly, have you done to deserve the name now?
But what good is a partial understanding of a name? It's useless! You're going to have to look it up either way.
And Zauron, you're the only one who turned this into a petty argument. You just couldn't leave things be.
EDIT: Of course, we won't even need a name if it turns out it isn't cancelable.
Also, Taymond, you are being rude and ignorant. There is no reason to change the name.
MDZ
Smash Journeyman
I thought you said in your topic that you still don't know how to do it properly yet?
I know what this technique is because of Zauron, and while it probably won't make much of a difference, I'll call it what he dubs it..
Ink Dropping isn't really that bad of name, though, nor does it make a huge difference what it's named.
Shadower
Smash Cadet
I think ink drop will stick, its very original and for the past couple days everyone has been calling it that.
Inkslinger
Smash Ace
I said i couldn't recreate the cancel, not the drop, there's been a confusion between the 2. I did use it into my game but it's not that great, it slows down the pace of the game when you need it cause the opponent dash dances and tries to tech chase, while you have keep them guessing. This isn't that great thought, but it's something you could do.
peachori
Smash Journeyman
alternatively, we could hold off on naming this **** until february 10th or whenever we actually know what the **** we're talking about.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
Oh? Then how do you immediately do a Trip out of an idle?
MDZ
Smash Journeyman
So wait..
The 'trip' itself, already being implemented into Brawl by the game creators, didn't have any additional technique added onto it by you (such as the cancel), yet it's being renamed after you?
In that case, shouldn't we wait for Nintendo to name it?
The 'trip' itself, already being implemented into Brawl by the game creators, didn't have any additional technique added onto it by you (such as the cancel), yet it's being renamed after you?
In that case, shouldn't we wait for Nintendo to name it?
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
lol, he doesn't know how to use it but he gets the props for finding it
this thread seems like an opinionated thread based on if you like the name or not
Seeing as Gimpy and Hugs and them use the name, there's little chance of it changing.
this thread seems like an opinionated thread based on if you like the name or not
Seeing as Gimpy and Hugs and them use the name, there's little chance of it changing.
MDZ
Smash Journeyman
Ehh.. but didn't Zauron actually find it weeks before E-For all and made a GIF out of it? (taking what someone said above)
/will read topic still because drama is lol
RocketDarkness
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 34
Okay, more speculating for me. Pivot is referring to the frames of animation where you're standing upwards and can do any action. Cancel has something to do with moving fast. Dash seems somewhat superfluous, because it's built into the pivot. Altogether, pivot dash canceling must involve using the pivot frame to attack faster than normal.
Am I correct?
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
and WHO did you hear that fr0m?
Inkslinger
Smash Ace
To the drop i do a roundhouse after a dash (sort of like a moonwalk), i'm not able to do it idle, but might with the gc controller the classic controller is very sensitive. I'll also say that always don't get it right, but that's cause I'm not used to the overall timing of brawl. i will be gone for a while guys have fun debating at the end of the day call it what you want
I'll repeat again, what I'm not able to do is the long dash pivot i once did.
I'll repeat again, what I'm not able to do is the long dash pivot i once did.
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
you're not actually tripping, that's just called tripping. The actual ink drop is canceling the trip
Inkslinger
Smash Ace
no gaw i did do it, it's not just in theory my proof is hugs and gimpy they clearly saw it and wouldn't lie at all about it. This dash pivot might not even be a ink drop cancel but something completely different, lol g2g now.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
Are you referring to me or Inkslinger? I was asking to point out that he doesn't know how to do it either.
Fine, you can worry about naming the cancel, I just want the base move to be called something sensible. We don't even know if the cancel exists. Inkslinger was WRONG about what he thought it did, and the next day could not duplicate it, leading to the conclusion that maybe you can't even cancel it at all and he likely did a completely different manuever (my guess is a Dash Brake Pivot) instead.
I'm concerned about the main move, the one performed by a CPU a week before Inkslinger ever tried the demo. That move was intentionally put in by the developers, not really "discovered" any more than air-dodge was "discovered", and hence it should have a normal name like Trip, not a cute nonsensical name like Ink Drop.
RocketDarkness
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 34
No. You are wrong. Pivot Dash Cancelling only exists in theory, and is just a consideration for replacing the name Ink Drop.
Even if you had been right, the fact that you had to ask demonstrates my point, so thank you.[/QUOTE]
Well, that would be because you were using previously defined Smash terms ('pivot') that didn't really have anything to do with the actual implementation of the technique. The character doesn't appear to actually turn around at any point during the trip animation, as far as the Yoshi .gif is concerned. Thus, it turned out to be an ubiquitous, poorly named technique, which is kind of what I've been against the entire time. You may have very well proven my point, in fact...
I think I will close it, actually. This isn't going anywhere.
- Status