• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Inactivity: Jigglypuff's Anime Club

TM_icecream

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
988
Location
Mineola, TX
^ that's why you suck






Tournaments > Wifi > Tech Practice > studying videos >thinking about the game
Wifi is real people that's why it's good lmao. I can log into AiB and play Salem, Nairo, Zero, Ally, Denti, and SlayerZ all within an hour.
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
^^^^^If you were any good and worth their time that is. But yes. Wifi is really good for some characters. For others it only helps slightly. I'd learn more things applicable to Puff by playing MK on wifi for example. It's even worse for Marf. In fact I often feel my skill level drops by playing him on Wifi.
 

TM_icecream

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
988
Location
Mineola, TX
Snake is really really good on wifi.

You have to treat wifi like a different game, but skill carries over from it to brawl big time.
Take time to learn the game, you're forced to read everything and play before the game is happening.

Most top wifi players will play you anyway if you just ask. Not on ladder if you suck cause you won't have any points
 

Desu~

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
742
Location
Canada, Montreal
NNID
Mr. G-E
Switch FC
2211-2137-8924
Announcer: Mr apex 2013 champion, would you tell us if wifi is good?

Apex 2013 champion: lol no?

THIS JUST IN!

Wifi is still bad.
 

TM_icecream

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
988
Location
Mineola, TX
Salem was top 5 ZSS from the beginning.
He also has played wifi and offline together for like 3 years.

Esam and m2k are literally the only top players today who don't play wifi.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Salem was top 5 ZSS from the beginning.
He also has played wifi and offline together for like 3 years.

Esam and m2k are literally the only top players today who don't play wifi.

omg top 5 ZSS so impressive

What about the top Japanese players? Not saying they definitely don't, but I've never seen Wifi matches of Otori, RAIN, Nietono, 9B, etc...

Salem didn't even deserve to win Apex imo, the way the MKs played vs. him... *shudder* How can you be a top player and run into a charged dsmash that many times?
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
Grim...I really don't want to justify that post with a response but: You're making yourself look far far worse then I thought you were atm. Otori is always top 5 or better on the allisbrawl singles ladder. You won't ever see 9B on wifi because ICs on wifi is pointless. Same for Mikeneko except it's Marf. That was the best Salem ever played. He was beyond being on point for that tournament. Ramin, M2K, Otori, and Mikeneko all had ZSS experience (in M2K's case he plays Salem a ton). And if you can't see how amazing the options and reads were that he made then yah.... That speaks for itself.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
I just said I've never seen Otori play on Wifi, not 'he definitely doesn't' (I even pointed out that I wasn' sure >_>). I don't go on the All is Brawl ladder because wifi in my country is unplayable lol, my lack of knowledge on which celebrities play wifi doesn't make me bad at the game lol. Besides, my point stands, there are more top players than M2K and ESAM that don't play on wifi.

But if you're trying to tell me that M2K was playing anywhere near his best in that grand finals, you're crazy. He flew and shuttle loop'd into sooo many side-bs... and used so many tornadoes that, even if he wasn't outright punished for them, did absolutely nothing for M2K. I'm not saying Salem deserved to place last or some ****, that'd be ridiculous, but I'm not alone in feeling like the MKs dropped the ball against him. It's like they forgot that you don't have to be afraid of ZSS, you can (hyperbole, but you get the idea) walk towards her with MK and react to almost anything she does.

EDIT: inb4 'salem made lots of mistakes too' and 'you cant expect M2K to play perfectly'
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
1) I agree that plenty of top players don't use wifi and it isn't needed to be a top player.
2) The fact that you included 9B was a problem. You know there is horrid lag in wifi. Obviously ICs can't play in wifi. Including him demonstrated a lack of understanding of the game.
3) So what you're telling me is that M2K forgot the matchup for Apex and only Apex.
Inb4 *** logic.
4) You're trying to say that Salem beating M2K (2 sets), Dojo, Ramin, Mikeneko, and Otori that day was a fluke. Look at where each of those people placed overall. Only a couple people went through a bracket path of the same/near the same difficulty.
5) You're flat out wrong. M2K played amazing during that grand finals (not his best ever of course). He did not however in winners finals.
6) I'll clarify my point. If you don't understand that for certain characters people can be almost average or godlike relative to their skill level purely based upon the day of the month and that it is a major part of all fighting games you suck ***. In smash MK honestly isn't one of those (as in it can't be put in the same mix as several). This was Salem's moment. He outplayed his competition and won.
----Oh but you seem to understand this based upon your inb4. And yet.... It 100% contradicts your entire argument, viewpoint, and mindset. There is a tremendous difference between "he didn't deserve to win" and "he isn't the best player."
Inb4 I'm done here.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
I included 9B because he's a top player who doesn't use wifi. I don't care about why he doesn't, because that wasn't relevant to the claim I was refuting. Mentioning this demonstrates a lack of understanding how conversation works.

Let it be known that M2K wins because he is good at match-ups, rather than being incredibly skilled at fundamentals and reading, as demonstrated by his impressive performance vs. OCEAN. Wait a second... I'd say that M2K never plays the match-up entirely how he is supposed to, because he doesn't need to to win.

I didn't say it was a fluke, and I didn't mention any MUs other than MK (his wins vs. Ramin and Mikeneko were hella legit). He out-played Dojo, but Dojo at least had a better idea of the overall gameplan the MU demands from what I saw. I don't remember what happened during winners and losers finals, and I don't want to watch because Coontail's commentary annoys the hell out of me, but I assume they were pretty similar to grand finals.

Just because I didn't refute the claims I myself made in my 'inb4', doesn't mean I agree with them. Yes, Salem made mistakes, and no, M2K can't be expected to play perfectly. But M2K CAN be expected to win a match-up that is in his favour by playing it properly, but he didn't. Salem played the best he has ever played, M2K played worse than I would've expected him to play - that's why I feel like Salem winning Apex wasn't entirely deserved, it relied (in part) on his opponent playing worse than average.

Like, really? If you want to prove why I'm an idiot, plz don't strawman.
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
wifi is trash why are you guys even discussing it
Because this is the Puff anime thread and almost anything is up for discussion.

Grim, M2K did not play worse then his average play except arguably winners finals... Also you might have missed the last line I added which is probably the issue here: There is a tremendous difference between "he didn't deserve to win" and "he isn't the best player." I'm not trying to misrepresent your arguments, but rather you aren't making sense/keep contradicting yourself. Your last post barring the M2K vs Ocean reference finally made sense except for the "deserved to win" = "best player" fallacy.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Point out a contradiction or nonsensical claim. I don't see how I could be to blame for, for example, the whole "good players on wifi" thing >_> That was all you buddy :p

Deserving to win is an entirely subjective thing. Some would say that regardless of the conditions; if someone wins they deserved it. Others would say that if I beat M2K while he was blind-folded, I didn't deserve to win. I don't feel like Salem deserved to win because I had an, apparently preconceived, notion that at top level play you can't beat MK with ZSS. I might not be able to convince you to agree with me, but that doesn't make me objectively wrong or a bad player. As I mentioned, I'm not the only person who feels this way.

I remember watching Apex while it was streamed with a fellow Smasher, and we spent the whole grand finals criticizing M2K for not playing properly to the point where we were calling his mistakes before he made them (and before he was punished for them).

In neutral position MK should walk toward ZSS; SH air dodge and power-shield (depending on what the situation calls for) to avoid the ONLY somewhat threatening options ZSS has in that situation (side-b and uncharged neutral-b). You can react to everything else with an ftilt, grab or dash attack unless the ZSS sacrifices stage control. This is rudimentary **** that M2K wasn't taking advantage of, and was instead throwing out superfluous moves and Nado'ing uselessly. Then, when you get ZSS out of neutral, smart tornadoes, late uairs, grabs and guaranteed shuttle loops will keep him out of neutral and juggle him to hell and back - M2K instead does his crazy M2K ****, which works a lot of the time, but lost him guaranteed damage a lot of other times. It's no secret that Salem recovered way more often than he should have at APEX, that argument doesn't need to be brought up again because it's obvious that he could've died several times very easily but didn't. Furthermore, M2K felt this pressure to run in and attempt to regain stage control against Salem even though one of the reasons MK is so strong is that he rarely has to do that against anyone - this is the reason he was hit by so many fairs and side-bs. He should've just gone below the stage and snapped the ledge every time (it isn't a scary position vs. ZSS, dsmash is literally the only option she has and YOU ARE META KNIGHT ON THE LEDGE). Then there were all the instances of him getting punished for the same **** multiple times; like air dodging up from the ledge into ZSS jab. That should happen once, and then never again, and **** like that was happening all the time.

I don't mean to imply that I would've done any better (I would've been destroyed, duh), or that the match-up is unwinnable for ZSS; but there are simple facts about the MU that everyone decided to ignore once the Salem hype train pulled into the station. Don't even get me started on how stupid the "Throw suit pieces off the stage as soon as possible or you'll die because ZSS is an untouchable goddess with them" attitude is. They don't increase her option pool dramatically, they just give her a different option pool with harder punishes but less mobility/range - and his use of them is often so disgustingly telegraphed that I wonder why people didn't instant throw them off the stage or back at her when they were given the opportunity (and trust me, there were a lot of opportunities).

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
 

TM_icecream

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
988
Location
Mineola, TX
It's grand finals of apex 2013.
Esam and ally got 13th. It's apex. Apex.

MK's don't just walk into dsmash at apex, it may look like that on camera, but that is not at all what's going down. Top levels of play in this game really very little on MU, tech skill, or "safe options." It comes down to plays 3-5 steps ahead of your opponent. IE with MK, it's like "They're pretty close, I could nado, but he's probably expecting that, so maybe I should mix it up and dash grab. Unless my opponent is expecting the mix up(if they're good and know I'm good they will) then I should nado again"

And the opponents perspective "he's nado'd a lot in this situation, he's about to do it again. Unless he's going to mix up and dash grab or attack... Although he's good, and he's probably gonna mix up by doing the same thing, so I'll account for nado and up-angled shield.)

But you have about 10/60 of a second to think through that.
That's top level play.
What looks like m2k walking into dsmash is really m2k expecting a mix up, and Salem reading that read and dsmashing anyway.



Salem won apex for 1 reason(aside from he's really stinking good)
He kept calm and thought through it, while everyone else was nervous/emotional.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
I'm perfectly aware that the players were reading one another, that doesn't elevate it to a level of play beyond comprehension of us mere 'noobs'. It's pretty easy to work out what they're thinking upon re-watching the matches.

I don't think one can blame tourney nerves for the fundamental playstyle mistakes these MKs were making. And I'd say that if they were too jittery to play the MU properly - then they don't have the MU experience that everyone claims they do, because I'm pretty sure you reach a point in understanding your opponent's character where you don't have to second guess options that they don't have.
 

teluoborg

Smash Otter
Premium
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
4,060
Location
Paris, France
NNID
teloutre
Srsly Grim until you go to Apex yourself I'd recommend you stop judging other people's matchup experience.

I don't think you have enough game experience and knowledge to comprehend what Salem pulled off at Apex and how it doesn't mean everyone else is bad.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Hm, yes, clearly I was saying that everyone else is bad.
I don't mean to imply that I would've done any better (I would've been destroyed, duh)
Don't be silly, it's only the other Puff mains that are bad, not every single other player in the world.

Besides, if I'm too inexperienced to comment, doesn't that mean you guys would have to be neutral on whether M2K played the MU properly as well, seeing as no one in this thread is even close to his or Salem's skill level?
 

Desu~

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
742
Location
Canada, Montreal
NNID
Mr. G-E
Switch FC
2211-2137-8924
I just love how this conversation switched to "wifi's bad" into "Salem shouldn't win Apex".

Im in the same mindset as teluoborg. Unless we don't prove otherwise, it's simply useless to argue how top players can make mistakes.
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
Point out a contradiction or nonsensical claim. I don't see how I could be to blame for, for example, the whole "good players on wifi" thing >_> That was all you buddy :p

One don't try to use an argument you know nothing about. You say "what about Japanese players I've never seen any" don't go on allisbrawl and basically don't watch wifi. "but I've never seen Wifi matches of" No really? Tell me more about how you haven't seen matches you don't watch? You have essentially no knowledge of this and still make a claim. Granted you said "not saying they definitely don't," but that doesn't really matter. I'd make an analogy but whatever I say you'd say is a bad analogy so why bother.

Contradiction? Your whole posts contradict each other and everything you say. I'm not going to keep saying things blatantly obvious to everyone else simply because you want to act like Dark Pch.

I'm perfectly aware that the players were reading one another, that doesn't elevate it to a level of play beyond comprehension of us mere 'noobs'. It's pretty easy to work out what they're thinking upon re-watching the matches.
Really? There isn't a huge difference between us low level players and top players in making reads? During the match it is beyond comprehension. Otherwise new players would win occasionally. And, obviously you can figure out most of what is in their head by going back and watching it. That's called hindsight bias. I could do that at levels of play far beneath what I'm at now, but as I've advanced I can see even more in a video then before. Same for when I'm watching a video of something I've never seen before. Why? Because my skill level has gone up and my motor skills are all designated towards one task and I don't need to plan my own reactions, input commands, attempt to to be outread quicker then I can read them, etc, etc, etc.

. He should've just gone below the stage and snapped the ledge every time
That is how a timeout occurs and a person loses on ledge grabs.

I'm seriously done here. It feels like the argument in the tier list thread with DP. Feel free to respond, trash, make more false claims, and I'll let it all go and not respond to this topic.
 

TM_icecream

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
988
Location
Mineola, TX
IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE COME TO THIS


PUFFS WE LOVE PUFF AND WE LOVE ANIME AND WE LOVE EACHOTGER STFU NEVERMIND SALEM IS GOOD WIFI IS BAD

CANAAN IS AN AMAZING ANIME PLS DISCUSS
 

Osennecho

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
819
Location
West Chester, Pennsylvania
Didn't mean I was done with the thread. I still <3 you all. Just the previous debacle. I haven't actually seen that anime :(. I meant to at one point but then realized it was the sequel (or was it just based on?) a video game. Meant to get the game first then see the anime. But I was to broke and forgot about its existence.
 

SoulPech

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
4,387
Location
Columbus/ NW Ohio
Like,

I use wifi as a last resort.... an ABSOLUTE last resort. I would rather play CPUs than play wifi. Wifi is good if you want to learn the basics, but anything advanced is more difficult to pull off.

As for Canaan,


Meh.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
One don't try to use an argument you know nothing about. You say "what about Japanese players I've never seen any" don't go on allisbrawl and basically don't watch wifi. "but I've never seen Wifi matches of" No really? Tell me more about how you haven't seen matches you don't watch? You have essentially no knowledge of this and still make a claim. Granted you said "not saying they definitely don't," but that doesn't really matter. I'd make an analogy but whatever I say you'd say is a bad analogy so why bother.
And that claim still turned out to be true, go figure. Besides, I don't need to have empirical knowledge of a subject to broach it, I was just being honest; I hadn't seen Wifi matches of those Japanese players; but I had seen Wifi matches of Salem and such, so I didn't fully believe the claim that every top player (bar m2k and esam) uses Wifi.

Really? There isn't a huge difference between us low level players and top players in making reads?
Stawman again, that isn't what I said.

During the match it is beyond comprehension. Otherwise new players would win occasionally. And, obviously you can figure out most of what is in their head by going back and watching it. That's called hindsight bias. I could do that at levels of play far beneath what I'm at now, but as I've advanced I can see even more in a video then before. Same for when I'm watching a video of something I've never seen before. Why? Because my skill level has gone up and my motor skills are all designated towards one task and I don't need to plan my own reactions, input commands, attempt to to be outread quicker then I can read them, etc, etc, etc.
I don't know what you're trying to say, I didn't say that I would have been able to make the same reads that they did in the heat of the moment, so there is no 'bias'. I was just saying that it's easy to tell what they were trying to do, so the excuse 'You just don't get it' doesn't actually hold any weight - and it seems like you agree?

That is how a timeout occurs and a person loses on ledge grabs.
Can't dispute this because it'd devolve into trivial theorycraft.

I'm seriously done here. It feels like the argument in the tier list thread with DP. Feel free to respond, trash, make more false claims, and I'll let it all go and not respond to this topic.

I don't know why everyone on this forum takes disagreements so personally. Throughout this discussion you made refutations that weren't actually relevant, or strawman'd my arguments before 'taking them down'. And if I was right about something, you'd just let it slide under the radar and respond to banal bull**** instead. You can stop whenever you want, but it'd at least be nice if you could take a step back, suck up your pride and appreciate how objectively awful you are at arguing.
 

SoulPech

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
4,387
Location
Columbus/ NW Ohio
You can stop whenever you want, but it'd at least be nice if you could take a step back, suck up your pride and appreciate how objectively awful you are at arguing.
This is why people argue. If you're gonna have an opinion, want to argue, or whatever, just say your statement. There's no need for backhanded comments...even if they're bad at something or not. It's just gonna cause more trouble.


Anyways, I began to watch TV and it was broadcasting Spongebob...why is this show so dumb?
 
Top Bottom