In my opinion, Sakurai could have done a better job with balancing the game.

[.Marik]

In my opinion, people should stop talking about this, because it's not going to change.

 

[RDK]

And your debating skills couldn't be worse. Way to get emotional.

Anyway, I just believe that One MM will not alter the Tier list, but it will spring hope. That's what I was trying to Instill.

I wasn't getting emotional at all. I was merely pointing out how stupid your argument was.

Yeah dude, That's what I'm saying. I mean how are you going to place every single character in the PERFECT Place? You can't this early on. So my statement, "Some characters are put where they are mainly due to Bias," Is somewhat true.

Do you really think that whoever made that tierlist, looked at every single tournament, and looked at the results, and used Statistics to put every single person in the exact place? Hell no. Maybe for the first 6, but how far can you go before you stop using tournament rankings (Due to a gross lack there of) and you start just thinking of simple logic as to who goes where?

A perfect tier list is constructed, when the person or persons who make it don't have to use simple logic, because all of the tournament Data and stuff is right there.

It's not long enough to do that yet, so the Tier list we have now isn't 100% accurate, which means that they would have had to put some characters that they don't belong.

/10that'sabiasithink.

Tier lists evolve and change over time. If we waited until we had the most perfect tier list possible, it would probably never get released. Yeah, the first few tier lists won't be 100% accurate, but you have to start somewhere.

Please actually look into what you're talking about before making idiotic claims.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

It's excellently balanced. It's just that we, the small group of elitist smashers, find strange glitches and unknown tricks to unbalance it.

For the average smasher, it IS as balanced as it can be. Favorites? What? No, that's just wrong.

 

[Yuna]

BS

The Tier List is based on character potential, not tournament results. Tournament results merely give a pretty good indication. Tell me, how often did you see the Marios place high in Melee? Yet they're above Ganondorf, who often placed high, what with Eddie around.

Contrary to popular and moronic belief, the Tier List is not dictated by tournament results or even based off of it. It's based off of a bunch of (hopefully) educated people taking a close look (and having a debate) on each character's ultimate potential and then there's a vote.

A final tally is then compiled and the tier list created.

It's excellently balanced. It's just that we, the small group of elitist smashers, find strange glitches and unknown tricks to unbalance it.

For the average smasher, it IS as balanced as it can be. Favorites? What? No, that's just wrong.

"Elitist Smashers"? Also, since when are you a part of "we"?

And it's excellently balanced without the "strange glitches and unknown tricks"? What would these be, pray tell? Anything except basic controls? Even if we stripped the game of everything harder to do than, say, airdodging out of combos, the game is still horrendously imbalanced.

In fact, with all of the tricks gone, Meta-Knight would be a god. No chaingrabbing, no Snakedashing, no Dacus, no SHB:ing, no variations of VoPs. All you need to do is spam Meta's moves all day and you'll win.

If you instead by "the average Smasher" mean "Smashers who aren't very good", then it's still not excellently balanced. Even not-so-good Smashers will know what to abuse and even in 100% casual Smashing featuring only lesser Smashers using no tricks, certain characters still excel while others just plain suck.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The Tier List is based on character potential, not tournament results. Tournament results merely give a pretty good indication. Tell me, how often did you see the Marios place high in Melee? Yet they're above Ganondorf, who often placed high, what with Eddie around.

Contrary to popular and moronic belief, the Tier List is not dictated by tournament results or even based off of it. It's based off of a bunch of (hopefully) educated people taking a close look (and having a debate) on each character's ultimate potential and then there's a vote.

A final tally is then compiled and the tier list created.

Can't agree here. The Back Room primarily uses tourney results because they are objective. You can't argue with the numbers. If the tier list was based on a "debate about ultimate potential", even one involving pro players, it would be pretty arbitrary. That would be like deciding that Kobe Bryant is the all around best basketball player in history because of his "potential" when Michael Jordan has the numbers to prove that he is the unequivocal best.

 

[Naucitos]

Um... orlandu.. how could you POSSIBLY tell someone who was involved in making the tier list that they DIDN'T make the tier list the way they did?

 

[OrlanduEX]

Um... orlandu.. how could you POSSIBLY tell someone who was involved in making the tier list that they DIDN'T make the tier list the way they did?

I don't know that Yuna was one of the guys working on the list.

Also from the Official Brawl tier list thread:

"This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list."

Of course tier list placing can't be entirely objective and cannot be entirely based on tournament results, but you need numbers to work with. Yuna says that tier lists are based on "character potential" rather than tourney results while this post from the back room clearly acknowledges that tournament results are an important factor in the decision making.

 

[Sky Hazuki]

The Tier List is based on character potential, not tournament results. Tournament results merely give a pretty good indication. Tell me, how often did you see the Marios place high in Melee? Yet they're above Ganondorf, who often placed high, what with Eddie around.

Contrary to popular and moronic belief, the Tier List is not dictated by tournament results or even based off of it. It's based off of a bunch of (hopefully) educated people taking a close look (and having a debate) on each character's ultimate potential and then there's a vote.

A final tally is then compiled and the tier list created.

.

That actually made a lot of sense to me. Thanks. =]

 

[AlexX]

Can't agree here. The Back Room primarily uses tourney results because they are objective. You can't argue with the numbers.

If tournament results mean that much to a tier list, then that begs the question:

If everyone in the US dropped whoever they were using and used nothing but Yoshi to the point where Yoshi was dominating in tournaments, would Yoshi be top-tier? I somehow doubt it, since he still has his flaws, he's just being used by everyone.

 

[Swordplay]

*Looks at how well the kirby series is doing*

Hey 2 characters from that series are in the top 5....sweet.

"Looks at how the zelda series is doing"

Hey this series has 2 out of the 3 worst characters in the entire game




sigh.....

 

[OrlanduEX]

If tournament results mean that much to a tier list, then that begs the question:

If everyone in the US dropped whoever they were using and used nothing but Yoshi to the point where Yoshi was dominating in tournaments, would Yoshi be top-tier? I somehow doubt it, since he still has his flaws, he's just being used by everyone.

That's a strawman. People use characters because they're good. Yoshi will never dominate tournaments.

 

[AlexX]

That's a strawman. People use characters because they're good. Yoshi will never dominate tournaments.

You completely missed the point.

I never said it would happen or even that it was possible. I was asking that if it were to happen, would Yoshi's dominance make him top tier regardless of his flaws? It's not a straw man argument, it's a hypothetical question.

 

[MarKO X]

The answer is no.

Because after it's all said and done, Yoshi still wouldn't be better than MK.

 

[AlexX]

The answer is no.

Because after it's all said and done, Yoshi still wouldn't be better than MK.

And that's precisely the point I was trying to make.

 

[Gygados]

(Reads title)

He's done a better job than Melee.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

This title seems very...familiar....

 

[Yuna]

Can't agree here. The Back Room primarily uses tourney results because they are objective. You can't argue with the numbers. If the tier list was based on a "debate about ultimate potential", even one involving pro players, it would be pretty arbitrary. That would be like deciding that Kobe Bryant is the all around best basketball player in history because of his "potential" when Michael Jordan has the numbers to prove that he is the unequivocal best.

I never said tournament results does not play a part. However, in my last post, after 29 jillion posts on the subject, I got tired of elaborating and failed to mention that tournament results do play a part, thus my post sounded like I was saying they play no part.

But as you said, it's a combination of several factors. Tournament results are not the be all and end all of the Tier List. While tournament results can give a pretty good indication of the very top of the Tier List, once you get down to Mid, it becomes quite muddled and hard to gauge character strength solely or primarily based on tournament results.

So, no, I disagree on that tier lists are based primarily on tourney results. But they do play a part, yes.

That's a strawman. People use characters because they're good. Yoshi will never dominate tournaments.

That's not a strawman, it's a "What if". If everyone good started using Yoshi, would Yoshi then deserve to shoot up in the tier list despite him not being very good on paper or even in practice? But he's winning tournaments and, after all, Tier Lists are apparently based primarily on tourney results.

Tourney results give a good indication. They're a good place to start. But when tier lists are written, there are debates, there are discussions, there are minor SBR flamewars (which are much less flamy and much more intelligent than "normal" flamewars) and finally, there's the voting. But while tourney results can sway a person's opinion, it's not the primary factor, especially not if the person in question has a deep understanding of the game and thinks certain results are a bit "off".

 

[redgreenblue]

Last night I realized how hard it is to fight metaknight with captain falcon. Why would they build two characters in the same game in such a wildly different manner???

 

[OrlanduEX]

I never said tournament results does not play a part. However, in my last post, after 29 jillion posts on the subject, I got tired of elaborating and failed to mention that tournament results do play a part, thus my post sounded like I was saying they play no part.

But as you said, it's a combination of several factors. Tournament results are not the be all and end all of the Tier List. While tournament results can give a pretty good indication of the very top of the Tier List, once you get down to Mid, it becomes quite muddled and hard to gauge character strength solely or primarily based on tournament results.

So, no, I disagree on that tier lists are based primarily on tourney results. But they do play a part, yes.


That's not a strawman, it's a "What if". If everyone good started using Yoshi, would Yoshi then deserve to shoot up in the tier list despite him not being very good on paper or even in practice? But he's winning tournaments and, after all, Tier Lists are apparently based primarily on tourney results.

Tourney results give a good indication. They're a good place to start. But when tier lists are written, there are debates, there are discussions, there are minor SBR flamewars (which are much less flamy and much more intelligent than "normal" flamewars) and finally, there's the voting. But while tourney results can sway a person's opinion, it's not the primary factor, especially not if the person in question has a deep understanding of the game and thinks certain results are a bit "off".

I'd like to see the criteria used by the Smash Back Room to determine the tier list. If it's based primarily on theorizing rather than practical results, then it's rather subjective. It is more the opinions of a handful of good players, rather than something that can be logically corroborated with facts.

And I say that the hypothetical about everyone using Yoshi is a strawman because it has no basis in reality. If all the best players decided to use Yoshi for some reason, intermediate level players using top tiers would start winning since Yoshi sucks. Yoshi would be popular, but clearly not good. Like I said, people use characters because they're good, which is why tournament results are a meaningful criterion for creating a tier list.

I agree though that since people don't really use characters below high tier in tournaments, you can't get accurate data on them for compiling a tier list in which case more subjective determinations need to be made.

 

[Mota]

and removing Toon Link for Mewtwo/Roy would be better

NOOOOOOOO!!! No removing Toon Link >=(

 

[e105beta]

Everybody needs to shut up and just play the game (Brawl/Melee/64/Pr0n)
If he comes out with a new one, maybe your whining will make him....
No, never mind.

 

[Mmac]

Why does everyone always uses Yoshi as a Rhetorical Question on "If everyone used this character, he'll still wont be good" because Yoshi actually HAS the potential to actually be in a respectable position on the Tier List.

He's pretty much in the same position as Toon Link, as nobody uses him, but has much more negative reputation

 

[e105beta]

Because he sucked butt in 64 and Melee, and the filth will never go away.

 

[Veil2222]

I still don't get where all the Yoshi stuff comes from, if you say Yoshi is bad a Yoshi main will always come out with something like "He's a counter to Metaknight" or "He's high tier, just no one uses him". Going by character ability, learning curve, and matchups, I really can't see him even making it to mid considering the bounty of obstacles a Yoshi player has to overcome compared to almost any other member of the cast. If I had ever seen a Yoshi take out a top ranking Metaknight, or if his tournaments results indicated something different, I would reconsider, but so far I've never seen anything counter to the opinion that Yoshi is quite far down there on the list, and rightfully so. If you've got some backup to show me that might change my mind, please link it here, I like Yoshi as a character, so I'd love for him to be better than originally percieved.

Everybody needs to shut up and just play the game (Brawl/Melee/64/Pr0n)
If he comes out with a new one, maybe your whining will make him....
No, never mind.

The "shut up and play" line is getting to be a very common, very pointless +1 post in a lot of subjects. You aren't saying anything that's going to change anyone's mind about anything, if you don't want to be a part of the convorsation, or you think it's worthless, don't bother yourself with posting please.

 

[Mmac]

He was actually Mid Tier in 64, and had at least Neutral Matchups on every character except Pikachu

Melee... he was pretty bad, but he still had respectable Matchups still and was better than about 10 People..... If that matters >_>

In Brawl, He's got great Matchups, even against the Higher Tier characters, with only a few bad matchups (Only Game & Watch and Lucario are Major)


And now we're off topic -_ -

I still don't get where all the Yoshi stuff comes from, if you say Yoshi is bad a Yoshi main will always come out with something like "He's a counter to Metaknight" or "He's high tier, just no one uses him". Going by character ability, learning curve, and matchups, I really can't see him even making it to mid considering the bounty of obstacles a Yoshi player has to overcome compared to almost any other member of the cast. If I had ever seen a Yoshi take out a top ranking Metaknight, or if his tournaments results indicated something different, I would reconsider, but so far I've never seen anything counter to the opinion that Yoshi is quite far down there on the list, and rightfully so. If you've got some backup to show me that might change my mind, please link it here, I like Yoshi as a character, so I'd love for him to be better than originally percieved.

Like you said, and what pretty much what the Tier List is based off of, Tier List's are based heavily on Tournament Results, which Yoshi doesn't have.

Like I said earlier, Yoshi is in the same Position as Toon Link, a Good Character, but just plain unpopular. Especially since about... 3 People use him in offline tournaments. Obviously, if not many people use him, then he can't really go up (Yeah, I am playing that card, but it's the truth)

 

[Veil2222]

Nah, we're still talking about balance, though we're temporarily focused on Yoshi at the moment, there's still something to be gotten for the OP from specific discussion. I don't see him having the best matchups, even if he does it would still seem he doesn't have the sheer character ability to pull of wins.

 

[e105beta]

He was actually Mid Tier in 64, and had at least Neutral Matchups on every character except Pikachu

Melee... he was pretty bad, but he still had respectable Matchups still and was better than about 10 People..... If that matters >_>

In Brawl, He's got great Matchups, even against the Higher Tier characters, with only a few bad matchups (Only Game & Watch and Lucario are Major)


And now we're off topic -_ -

It's not really off topic. In fact, your stating that "He's got great Matchups, even against the Higher Tier characters" is actually on topic, albeit going in the opposite direction of the intended thread direction.

The fact that Meta Knight, DeDeDe, Kirby are all high tier characters in Brawl does make me a tad suspicious, however.

 

[Veil2222]

I'm with ya on that one e105, I think ole Mr. Sak has something against the Zelda series and Yoshi. Personally I think this game has more options for viability than melee did. I know plenty of people will fervently disagree based of their own conjecture, but so far I've been able to learn and play about 5 character that I feel if I focused I could do well at the tournaments in my area. In melee I felt I had to hard main one character and only practice with them just to stand a chance even in local scenes.

 

[Mmac]

The fact that Meta Knight, DeDeDe, Kirby are all high tier characters in Brawl does make me a tad suspicious, however.

Kirby was garbage in Melee, so it was natural to make him stronger in Brawl, I think they did a good job balancing Kirby

Dedede is where he's at due to his Dthrow Chaingrab, which was probably overlooked (It wasn't discovered until a month after the US Release). without it, he'll still be in a respectable spot on the list

MetaKnight they might have went alittle overboard. The only reason being that he's suppose to be the lighting fast combo character with no or hard to land kill attacks, but he has quite a few decent ones that might have been overlooked...

You also gotta remember that Sakurai balanced the game with the "Traditional" gameplay in mind (Items, Timed Gameplay, ect.), and not to what we are accustomed to.


Edit: Personally, I think Yoshi is as good as his 64 Counterpart, but pretty much only because of various techniques and exploits.

But you gotta wonder, why the hell did he nerfed his Dsmash!

 

[Yuna]

I'd like to see the criteria used by the Smash Back Room to determine the tier list. If it's based primarily on theorizing rather than practical results, then it's rather subjective. It is more the opinions of a handful of good players, rather than something that can be logically corroborated with facts.

The last time the Melee tier list was revised (I was an SBR member back then), it was a big pile of subjective voting taken on by the most knowledgeable of Smashers. People debated each characters' potential and then had a subjective vote on it.

Yes, this is how tier lists are made! People don't just look at tourney results and go "Yes, that's how it is!". Because it would be stupid.

And I say that the hypothetical about everyone using Yoshi is a strawman because it has no basis in reality. If all the best players decided to use Yoshi for some reason, intermediate level players using top tiers would start winning since Yoshi sucks. Yoshi would be popular, but clearly not good. Like I said, people use characters because they're good, which is why tournament results are a meaningful criterion for creating a tier list.

Fine, if all the best players started playing Zelda, would she magically shoot up in the rankings? Would she magically become Top Tier? And when I say best, I mean the top, oh, 100.

 

[smaci92]

I agree...It's almost impossible for link to beat metaknight

 

[Greenstreet]

In an interview with Sakurai he was asked 'is there anything you would alter about the game if you had more time' or something to that effect

and his reply was (also paraphrasing)
"there will always be something that needs changing, i could spend X number of years on it and there wud still be things i would change'

so i guess he understands that the game isnt balanced....
time is important, its a big restraint, so i think he did well with the time he and the game creators were given.

 

[Veil2222]

The sheer concept of the game would be worth my time even if it was much worse than it is now. I value it on so many facets that it would be difficult for me to say that I think they could have gotten everything right and not detracted from he concepts they've already well established.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Kirby was garbage in Melee, so it was natural to make him stronger in Brawl, I think they did a good job balancing Kirby

Dedede is where he's at due to his Dthrow Chaingrab, which was probably overlooked (It wasn't discovered until a month after the US Release). without it, he'll still be in a respectable spot on the list

MetaKnight they might have went alittle overboard. The only reason being that he's suppose to be the lighting fast combo character with no or hard to land kill attacks, but he has quite a few decent ones that might have been overlooked...

You also gotta remember that Sakurai balanced the game with the "Traditional" gameplay in mind (Items, Timed Gameplay, ect.), and not to what we are accustomed to.


Edit: Personally, I think Yoshi is as good as his 64 Counterpart, but pretty much only because of various techniques and exploits.

But you gotta wonder, why the hell did he nerfed his Dsmash!

The traditional gameplay isn't balanced either though. I don't think he really gave it much thought. Why would he? In his mind, the game isn't designed for competitive play at all.