In favor of the nerf

[Green L]

Not that it wasn't possible before but honestly it was mostly just look for a grab so you can DownB

Good Luigi mains always used reads. Where have you been? Down throw airdodge reads to up b, fireball locks from down throw on platforms, etc

Everyone else has already told you that you were wrong so I don't need to go there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUW46HGInO8 There are other vids some do different things others repeat but it goes to show that people are adapting and trying to be more creative now. Maybe as a mixup Luigi could go with forward throw to dash attack at 0% instead of the down throw not that it is super damage but still it may make your opponent hesitate.

I saw that video already. NOTHING in that vid is new besides down throw down smash. That's what you're not getting. Luigi could do all that pre patch. Luigi always required skill and reads to win. SKILLED Luigi mains didn't just spam fireballs and dash grab because it's so predictable and easily beaten.
Most"combos" in sm4sh are very linear and come from grabs. Take ness for example. All ness mains spam down throw to fair until that 30% mark when it stops working. This "combo" doesn't take much skill and just as linear as luigi's. Even worse, it's ness' ONLY combo. If it weren't for grab followups, most characters wouldn't be able to combo at all.

 

[Xephilon]

Well guys its been a few weeks since the patch and its safe to say...This isn't the same Luigi. He's still fun to use but he's no longer that viable in competitive play against the usual top tiers (Rosa, Sheik, ZSS, etc). Let me explain as best as I can.

Against high tiers (Ryu, Roy, Falcon, Fox, etc) even though they're fast, they don't have much of an approach and have to go up close with Luigi where his frame data will shine and he has a good shot against them. Luigi doesn't receive much trouble here.

Now Top tiers (Diddy, ZSS, RosaLuma, Sheik, etc) all something that makes the MU for Luigi unbearable. Diddy has bananas and better mobility all around, ZSS has the space, Rosalina has Luma to block our fireballs and outspace us, Sheik is just Sheik enough said, and so on. We just don't have any means in our kit to counter attack except Nair which will only get us so far and not to mention the fact that we're so easily gimpable like Little Mac but that isn't all that makes us now weak. We don't have any good kill confirms/kill moves unlike most of the top tiers.

Usmash is nice but only if you hit from behind you and can still only work via reads. Fsmash, Up B, Bair? Read. Dsmash? No matter how many times you spam it, it still takes a while to get a kill. And most of these are unsafe to perform against the top tiers since they can punish with their speed. Speaking about that speed, it also makes it harder to actually even hit them.

Lastly, compared to our last dthrow, this one is punishable early game. At 0%, if you do Dthrow to anything, you can still get hit by certain moves. No other character in the game has such an unsafe dthrow (as far as I know) and trust me, I've given a lot of testing.
Dthrow -> Dair? Punishable
Dthrow -> Smash? Punishable
Dthrow -> pretty mcuh anything is punishable.

So its with quite a heavy heart that I can no longer be a Luigi main (in smash 4 at least)...He shall be my secondary to certain match ups and still one of my two favorite characters. in the whole roster I wish you all good luck in your journey to improving Luigi and hope that you can forgive my betrayal.

Sincerely, Xeph.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Eh, she has potential. IDK on Peach's MUs tho. She may or may not lose hard to Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, or others. I recall she can be camped fairly well due to her mobility tho.

Peach is extremely underrated in 4. Her bad matchups aren't necessarily because she's out-sped, but rather because they usually involve preventing her from pulling/using her turnips or from floating. Also she can't be camped out because of float. How anyone can come to the conclusion that she's campable is beyond me...
Anyways, her bad matchups are Mario, Sonic, (used to be but now probably even) Luigi, Rosalina, (obviously) Sheik, Yoshi, Pikachu, and Fox. Maybe Captain Falcon but I'd say it's even. I'd also say Zero Suit Samus but Peach vs ZSS is like finding a unicorn so I can't judge. But yeah not very many bad matchups.

 

[G. Stache]

I'm in agreement with Boss (prolly the best Luigi imo). It's not be too easy getting over the d throw nerfs, but we might as well. What is getting salty going to do besides impede progress? Obviously the MU's against ZSS, Sheik, and Rosa got worse (though imo we didn't lose TOO horribly to ZSS, so she's still bearable to me). But I refuse to think that we lose to pika when he somehow has less range than us and still loses close range (quite frankly, I think Esam just over sells the potential of pikachu at this point). I still think diddy has the disadvantage, as his combos were mega nerfed compared to us. He still has the banana, but we have a more versatile projectile and even the likes of Luigis edge guarding can gimp diddy's vertical recovery relatively easily. Not to mention that with smart playing even yoshi's mobility and strong aerials are somewhat manageable. Fox is growing in popularity, so that's only good news for Luigi. So I don't know what people say when Luigi sucks against high tiers (not just you guys saying this). Luigi, despite his nerfs, is still easily top 15 and shouldn't be counted out from the competitive scene just yet. Like I've said to people before: you want to complain about Luigi's nerfs until Smash 5 comes out then sure, go ahead. I just simply don't see how some of you see that his D-Throw got nerfed and think that it's the end of the world. Green L, you said that Luigi was an inferior Mario at this point, right? Then go ahead and use Mario at this point. Nobody will judge you. We totally understand if you want to win. But stop spouting about how Luigi could be played around by spot dodging. If that were the case, he'd be in the same tier as jigglypuff; a character that gets bodied by shields and rolling. If YOU can be outplayed by sidestepping, then that's your vendetta. Not Luigi's. That would be all. I'd like to end on a more positive tone by saying: I implore you try to get over Luigi's nerf. I know, the nerf sucked, but it's been two weeks and it's high time we redevelop the Luigi meta instead of complaining and breaking it down even further every time we bring up the nerf. Luigi is still Luigi. Luigi still has arguably the best damage racking game. Luigi arguably has the second best frame data. Luigi is still high tier to me. Low high tier, but still high tier. And it's about time we look and see that Luigi hasn't gained any weaknesses (besides killing, but Boss and other good Luigi's still know how to read really well, and that's what Mario mains have been doing for all of smash. So I don't see it as a HUGE problem). The patch just made our old weaknesses more noticeable.

 

[MurphyPrime]

G.Stache provided some much needed positivity. Character development doesn't start by simply playing a character. It involves research, thinking, experimenting, and repeating. Luigi wasn't necessarily thought of as an elite character right out of the gate (some people thought bowser was ). His meta was developed into what it was pre-patch. Wouldn't you love to be the Luigi who proves the people who gave up wrong?

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Good Luigi mains always used reads. Where have you been? Down throw airdodge reads to up b, fireball locks from down throw on platforms, etc

I saw that video already. NOTHING in that vid is new besides down throw down smash. That's what you're not getting. Luigi could do all that pre patch. Luigi always required skill and reads to win. SKILLED Luigi mains didn't just spam fireballs and dash grab because it's so predictable and easily beaten.
Most"combos" in sm4sh are very linear and come from grabs. Take ness for example. All ness mains spam down throw to fair until that 30% mark when it stops working. This "combo" doesn't take much skill and just as linear as luigi's. Even worse, it's ness' ONLY combo. If it weren't for grab followups, most characters wouldn't be able to combo at all.

Dude again you are doing this? I never said it never happened or it wasn't being done but seriously why do that when you can down throw > down b. You just need to opt out of the Luigi boards and go to Mario since you hate this "nerfed" character now.

Y Yonder if you could lock this thread as I feel it will most likely just go downhill.

 

[TriTails]

Dude again you are doing this? I never said it never happened or it wasn't being done but seriously why do that when you can down throw > down b. You just need to opt out of the Luigi boards and go to Mario since you hate this "nerfed" character now.

Y Yonder if you could lock this thread as I feel it will most likely just go downhill.

Not to be rude or anything, but HooHahNado can be SDI'd down (IIRC Pyr claimed when it's DI'd properly, don't even kill until 150+% in dittos) and DI'd sideways. It's also fairly uneffective on fast-fallers, where D-throw B-air is its substitute.

Huh. I suppose I need to just shut up and lab stuffs out. F-air chaingrab seem to be doable on dittos at 0% (Not something we can do pre-patch), D-throw + F-air + N-air is our BnB combo now (On people not titled fast-fallers). D-throw + U-tilt or U-smash can lead to grabs on fast-fallers, albeit not guaranteed. Strong N-air pops people up at the perfect height and angle for us to combo at low percents, and late N-airs punishes get-ups.

Looks like N-air is more useful than ever now.

 

[Green L]

I never said it never happened or it wasn't being done but seriously why do that when you can down throw > down b.

Luigi lost more than just down throw down b. He lost a lot of kill confirms like down throw to , back air, dair, nair, fireball locks, and up b. Luigi clearly got nerfed and many of his tools were taken away. There was more to luigi than down throw to cyclone but because the community refused to adapt and whine for nerfs, Luigi is a much more limited character to the point where he dropped many spots on the tier list. I guess I'm done with sm4sh and maybe I'll invest my time in melee. At least melee luigi is much more fun to play and the melee community doesn't complain about anything remotely good

 

[meleebrawler]

Luigi lost more than just down throw down b. He lost a lot of kill confirms like down throw to , back air, dair, nair, fireball locks, and up b. Luigi clearly got nerfed and many of his tools were taken away. There was more to luigi than down throw to cyclone but because the community refused to adapt and whine for nerfs, Luigi is a much more limited character to the point where he dropped many spots on the tier list. I guess I'm done with sm4sh and maybe I'll invest my time in melee. At least melee luigi is much more fun to play and the melee community doesn't complain about anything remotely good

That's because they know whining will do absolutely nothing. Either you grit your teeth and bear with it or get lost. That's how games with no patches work.

 

[sims796]

I'd hardly call what he's doing "whining". This is a discussion board, and most posts of his has been on he level. Sure, his doom-saying is annoying, but after reading this thread, he always spoke about his experiences with the character. Tritails did the same thing, only without the defeatist attitude.

I agree with Green Stache in that endless ******** and comparing old games does us no good at all, but I see a few people downplaying the severity of this nerf. Yes, he has insane combo game, someone the best, and they can nerf that to hell because it'll always be the best. The issue that Tritails and Xephilion is pointing out is that he simply can't land them. He always had that issue. This patch did nothing to solve it while weakening a apparently large selling point.

That's what the discussion should be about. I agree that the whole "I give up on life" thing is unhelpful in the extreme, but let's look at some of he points between the complaints.

Well yes, I guess I described the definition of whining, but it's for a good cause!

 

[wolvenreign]

I don't want to say Luigi is ruined. But now all of my most effective options for kills in my arsenal are gone. What I notice:

- Luigi can't D-Throw to N-Air to kill

-Luigi can't D-Throw to Down+B to kill

-Unless the character is a super light weight, you cannot combo D-Throw to F-Air off the bat anymore. You need some percent to actually pull it off now.



Ever since this patch came out... They changed Luigi to the point where I have no style anymore! All the moves I built my style around are Gone.

This is like telling Michael Jackson- "We need you to preform but you can't do the moonwalk, you can't grab your crotch, you can't go "Hee Hee", None of that. Basically I need to find a new main or try to find a way around this god forbidden nerf.

Actually, the D-Throw to Up+B still works, and it works at a lower percentage than before while still killing.

Just remember to double jump quickly to where the opponent is.

 

[Yonder]

I think it's fine to express your opinion on the Luigi nerf even if you have sour feelings towards it, just don't go off saying "Oh he's useless now unviable yada yada" without offering ways to help improve the new Luigi. Just complaining leads to a negative environment while offering 0 productivity. Also it leads to many disputes and flared tempers.

So I'll only lock the thread if any of that happens.

 

[TriTails]

I'd hardly call what he's doing "whining". This is a discussion board, and most posts of his has been on he level. Sure, his doom-saying is annoying, but after reading this thread, he always spoke about his experiences with the character. Tritails did the same thing, only without the defeatist attitude.

I agree with Green Stache in that endless ******** and comparing old games does us no good at all, but I see a few people downplaying the severity of this nerf. Yes, he has insane combo game, someone the best, and they can nerf that to hell because it'll always be the best. The issue that Tritails and Xephilion is pointing out is that he simply can't land them. He always had that issue. This patch did nothing to solve it while weakening a apparently large selling point.

That's what the discussion should be about. I agree that the whole "I give up on life" thing is unhelpful in the extreme, but let's look at some of he points between the complaints.

Well yes, I guess I described the definition of whining, but it's for a good cause!

Exactly.

Some people are taking the nerf like it was just a 1% damage nerf to the jab combo. Meanwhile, other people took the nerf like doomsday is tommorow.

To reiterate what I say before, yes, Luigi has insane frame data. Yes, he has insane damage output. Yes, he has insane combos. But ALL of those are big fat nothing if you can't land them, which what happens vs Sheik, Greninja, Pac, etc.

This patch did nothing but worsening Luigi's reward when getting in. His main selling point was the fact he can rack up lots of damage and kill his opponents in the next one or two grabs. Now the latter has been taken away, I don't see how he is still 'top tier' or 'really good' if all this patch did was to worsen his MUs while his buffs did little to nothing to compensate for that.

Guess we now has to thrive reads for smashes. Frankly, that can be hard. But on the contary, N-air is more useful than ever now. D-smash was an overlooked move that got buffed, Luigis should abuse it more (Seriously. It's a damn good move). But we now just have to endure Sheiks, Rosalinas, Greninjas, Pacs, Megas, and Villyies because all of those MUs got worse for us.

I'm not endorsing Luigi's doom, I'm just saying people should stop overreacting or underreacting his nerfs. This nerf hit Luigi hard but don't make him useless. I'm sure I hit the dart right in the middle of the target on that statement.

 

[leesinger]

Why is this thread even allowed to exist? Its literally just a haven for people to whine. nobody wants to hear it. I got second yesterday playing luigi in a tourney. He is stilll a viable contender in this game. I see so many posts from this dude tritrails whining about the nerf and im thinking to myself, who is this guy. Posting a bunch in threads wont help you become a better player dude, and whining certainly won't either.

 

[sims796]

The mod literally answered that question right above you. Posts like that adds nothing at all and are of no real value. The mod just said what is allowed in this thread, and Tritails' posts was one of them. I mean, I'm not trying to stick up for the dude, s/he's a big boy/girl/boygirl, but he isn't nearly as bad as a doomsayer as many others, I mean at least he shares his experiences.

So you got second on a tourney? Congrats. Seriously, that's good news. Care to share you experiences? How did this nerf affect you? What did you do to compensate, if you had to compensate at all? If you feel he's still high tier (like I do) then explain why, otherwise you're no better than the guy your demonizing.

 

[TriTails]

Why is this thread even allowed to exist? Its literally just a haven for people to whine. nobody wants to hear it. I got second yesterday playing luigi in a tourney. He is stilll a viable contender in this game. I see so many posts from this dude tritrails whining about the nerf and im thinking to myself, who is this guy. Posting a bunch in threads wont help you become a better player dude, and whining certainly won't either.

Whining? I was simply pointing out things people miss. Imagine underreacting people and overreacting people on the ends of a bridge. I'm on the middle.

Pre-patch Falco won a national (A little bit of Samus and one other character I forget but it was mostly Falco).
Doesn't make him viable.

I was telling people not to miss the elephant in the room by saying Luigi has worse MUs against Sheik, et cetera, which are big hits on his viability (SHEIK ESPECIALLY) and I don't see how he can be 'really good' or 'top tier' with those conditions. I was also telling people not to miss the elephant in the room to not forget even with the nerf, this does not make Luigi 'useless' or 'bottom tier' as he still has strengths to use. People mostly are saying 'Luigi is still top tier' which made me counter them, making me look like I'm whining. If telling people my experiences which are bold enough for me to say to the forums is whining, then this place would become WhineBoards.

I don't say things carelessly (mostly). We all have known how Mr. CC doesn't stand much of a chance against ZeRo's Sheik PRE-PATCH (If you can't handle Sheik, you're not solo-viable. Period.). We all know how much trouble Rosa was. We all know how Luigi struggles against camping. We all know MUs that were bad for Luigi got even worse. His good MUs were either damaged or unchanged.

I at least tried to point out things I've experienced. I at least take caution before I post. So if I'm wrong, excuse me.

 

[Simperheve]

Luigi's still very good to use, but getting out of the habit of down throw kill confirms at high percents is quite difficult. The amount of times i've wasted what could have been a better use of my throw because I forget that I can't do D-Throw -> Up B at 90-ish% anymore is quite unsettling. His combo game is still pretty good, but now i'm having to rely more on Smashes for my kills (which i'll admit I could use some improvement on). I think anyone who still wants to main Luigi will adapt and survive. After all, it could have been much worse if our D-throw was rendered unusable in all circumstances.

 

[Dre89]

I can't believe people are complaining about the nerf

He's still the easiest character to play in the game and he is still better than most of the cast. Still has better kill tools than most of the cast, and has the best frame data in the game. Best or second best projectile, best combo breaker and the best upsmash alongside a fast fsmash that kills as early as a heavy's. Most characters would kill for his dsmash but Luigi doesn't use it much because he has better options lol.

He has literally the best damage on hit and kill power relative to framedata and people still complain that you actually have to earn your kills with reads now.

The way I see it, if Luigi had been like this since vanilla I don't think people would be complaining. Especially considering people are still getting results with him.

 

[sims796]

He also has the worst traction that works against him, one of he worst approach game of the cast, backed up by a slow air speed and average running speed. He's great at punishing, but has to be on the top of his game to do so, because if they manage to slip past him, he has an uphill battle to get back into position. He's weak to campers, and has issues with his recovery (but who doesn't really).

It's important to look at all aspects of the character. This nerf weakened him for sure. Before, despite his flaws, he had a method to kill you on he spot that you kinda had to work for, and that kinda sorta made up for his weaknesses.

That said, he still has the tools other character kills for, and while he now has genuine competition from that wannabe Mario, he hasn't been taken outta the game at all, whatsoever.

You male a great point, though. I wonder how great Weegee would have been if he'd been like this from the start. He does have a crapload of strengths that wasn't properly capitalized on. If this is the last ever patch of the game, I can live with this Luigi.

 

[Dre89]

He also has the worst traction that works against him, one of he worst approach game of the cast, backed up by a slow air speed and average running speed. He's great at punishing, but has to be on the top of his game to do so, because if they manage to slip past him, he has an uphill battle to get back into position. He's weak to campers, and has issues with his recovery (but who doesn't really).

It's important to look at all aspects of the character. This nerf weakened him for sure. Before, despite his flaws, he had a method to kill you on he spot that you kinda had to work for, and that kinda sorta made up for his weaknesses.

That said, he still has the tools other character kills for, and while he now has genuine competition from that wannabe Mario, he hasn't been taken outta the game at all, whatsoever.

You male a great point, though. I wonder how great Weegee would have been if he'd been like this from the start. He does have a crapload of strengths that wasn't properly capitalized on. If this is the last ever patch of the game, I can live with this Luigi.

People complain about his traction and lack of speed, but that is literally his only meaningful weakness.

He would be absolutely broken if he was fast. He has an oppressive projectile, and the kill power/damage-on-hit of a heavy in the frame data of a lightweight.

Dealing with his lack of speed is where the skill is required, because the rest of his kit is overturned to be balanced around it.

You have a good attitude, but it annoys me when some Luigis complain about having a single meaningful weakness.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Guys you can't be serious, you're forgetting he has unbelievably horrible attack range as a major flaw. Still very viable but honestly how could you neglect that?

 

[G. Stache]

Guys you can't be serious, you're forgetting he has unbelievably horrible attack range as a major flaw. Still very viable but honestly how could you neglect that?

Good point, but keep in mind that Mario has around the same range. Bad mobility plays a part in bad range. The two kind of go hand and hand.

People complain about his traction and lack of speed, but that is literally his only meaningful weakness.

He would be absolutely broken if he was fast. He has an oppressive projectile, and the kill power/damage-on-hit of a heavy in the frame data of a lightweight.

Dealing with his lack of speed is where the skill is required, because the rest of his kit is overturned to be balanced around it.

You have a good attitude, but it annoys me when some Luigis complain about having a single meaningful weakness.

Also, it's true that some Luigi's complain about the whole bad mobility gig, but most of us are just trying to take the nerf with a smile, while the bandwagon is slowly starting to cart it's way out (with the special exception of Lord Takeo, who gave valid reasons for leaving instead of claiming that Luigi sucked and crying his way to the Mario Boards). The nerf hit us harder than you're giving credit for, though. Camping is still an issue as well as sheik and Rosa (say what you guys want, but I still feel that ZSS still isn't such a bad MU that it's overwhelming) so we went a good few placements in the tier rankings. Like I said before, we're still high tier, but low high tier. Frame data can cover quite a lot and our grab game is still top tier material at racking up damage. The problem has been, and will always be, getting in to use his strengths. Which is why mobility is a bigger issue than you may think. This is also why Luigi mains saw the nerf as unnecessary. His advantage and disadvantage states are both great. But his neutral was either really good or really bad (against most high/top tiers it's pretty atrocious). I understand your points, and let it be said that some (most likely former) Luigi mains need(ed) to tone it down a notch or ten. But you should see our side too, as the nerf was rather...untasteful for Sakurai to do to Luigi and a redistribution could've still have done wonders to balance out Luigi. (SPOILER: Still love Luigi's play style, and even after the nerf he's still a great character. Underestimate him if you want. But just remember: second place isn't THAT bad. Not everyone's a winner)

 

[MurphyPrime]

Nerfs aren't done yet (likely). Nintendo still is planning to release a few characters so expect more patches with them. With how hard Luigi is hit I can't imagine him getting nerfed again.

 

[sims796]

People complain about his traction and lack of speed, but that is literally his only meaningful weakness.

He would be absolutely broken if he was fast. He has an oppressive projectile, and the kill power/damage-on-hit of a heavy in the frame data of a lightweight.

Dealing with his lack of speed is where the skill is required, because the rest of his kit is overturned to be balanced around it.

You have a good attitude, but it annoys me when some Luigis complain about having a single meaningful weakness.

Greenie said it perfectly.Those are his main weaknesses, sure, but they are highly damaging ones. Mario has similar weaknesses, but has moves to get around it. The single most damning thing about him isn't the fact that he has low traction,average running speed, poor aerial speed, and so-so reach, it's that he possesses all of these together. You need to really be skilled to get over his most basic flaw; he can be kept at bay with a ten foot pole. Ever had a little sibling? Remember holding out your arm on their forehead so they can't reach you? Yeah, something like that. This is why he's so weak to campers.

I would love it if certain properties were added to his moves. Maybe his Cyclone can rip through minor projectiles,
or his Missile given less landing lag. That would greatly aid in his approach. Mario has his cape, buff Luigi's moves a bit.

 

[sims796]

Nerfs aren't done yet (likely). Nintendo still is planning to release a few characters so expect more patches with them. With how hard Luigi is hit I can't imagine him getting nerfed again.

You take that back! You take that right the @#$% back! Sakurai is known to lurk every forum, waiting for those words to be said!

 

[G. Stache]

You take that back! You take that right the @#$% back! Sakurai is known to lurk every forum, waiting for those words to be said!

R.I.P: Luigi and Diddy boards. Hopefully Sheik boards make the same mistake.


(sorry for the 2x post, couldn't help it)

 

[MurphyPrime]

If we spam the other boards with the same message, what will happen? Will Smash 4 be nerfed to brawl ?

 

[Xephilon]

I can't believe people are complaining about the nerf

He's still the easiest character to play in the game and he is still better than most of the cast. Still has better kill tools than most of the cast, and has the best frame data in the game. Best or second best projectile, best combo breaker and the best upsmash alongside a fast fsmash that kills as early as a heavy's. Most characters would kill for his dsmash but Luigi doesn't use it much because he has better options lol.

He has literally the best damage on hit and kill power relative to framedata and people still complain that you actually have to earn your kills with reads now.

The way I see it, if Luigi had been like this since vanilla I don't think people would be complaining. Especially considering people are still getting results with him.

No, the easiest character in the game goes to Ness or Yoshi. Yoshi barely has any end lag on his moves while having super armor on his second jump and Ness has side B that does 20% damage that combos to anything and has a killing bthrow starting as early as 80-90%. Pre-patch Luigi was debatable but now, he requires more knowledge and skill to use effectively.

Kill tools that require reads, he has some good ones but nowhere near the best.
Best frame data doesn't belong to Luigi. He has amazing data yes, easily top 10 or top 5, but best frame data goes to Sheik.
Best projectile also goes to Sheik. Fast, invisible and scaling knockback, that means you can win neutral with one button at high percents.

Best combo breaker...You mean the Nair im guessing? That Yoshi, Mario, Ness, Peach and a lot of other characters share?
Luigi's, Yoshi's, Pikachu's and Mario's Nair comes out at Frame 3, Ness' and Peach's at frame 5. Its not the best, its TIED for the best. Has higher damage and knockback when sweetspotted which might make it seem better, but that's not always what you want in every situation.

Best Usmash belongs to Lucas, while Mario/Luigi/Sheik/Doc being a close second if sweetspotted. And yeah, Fsmash is fast but it has little range and its active on frame 12-13 like most of the cast and again, it has no set up. It requires a good read from the Luigi player considering our speed to keep up with others.

Lol no, Luigi mains use Dsmash often as its one of his best moves and its active on Frame 6. Honestly, this would be one of the best dsmashes in the game and its one of the things that make Luigi VERY viable.

We're not the best damage on frame data on EVERY move. Nair is definitely one but that's about it. And we don't complain that we require reads, no. We complain that Sheik, the strongest in the game, is left untouched while we got our dthrow, our core mechanic, reworked so now we have to learn the character ALL over again and see what works at what percents and what doesn't while we have a laughable recovery comparable to Little Mac and no speed to keep up with all the other top tiers. Also, our punish game is horrible since we slide when we get hit while shielding so a good Luigi HAS to perfect shield in order to get damage in with our so called "amazing" data.

Lastly, on tournament results, the only good Luigi getting results is a Boss...on weekly tournaments...Now, when was the last time you saw a Luigi at the top 8 in any other being tournament after the patch?

So please, look up some info before opening your mouth. Thank you.

 

[Bee86]

Regardless of how you feel about the nerf, Boss seems to make it work just fine. I personally use Luigi competitively and I don't think this nerf made him any less of a viable tournament fighter. His down throw is obviously gonna be a learning curve for anyone to remaster but it's not the biggest deal to me.

 

[G. Stache]

No, the easiest character in the game goes to Ness or Yoshi. Yoshi barely has any end lag on his moves while having super armor on his second jump and Ness has side B that does 20% damage that combos to anything and has a killing bthrow starting as early as 80-90%. Pre-patch Luigi was debatable but now, he requires more knowledge and skill to use effectively.

Kill tools that require reads, he has some good ones but nowhere near the best.
Best frame data doesn't belong to Luigi. He has amazing data yes, easily top 10 or top 5, but best frame data goes to Sheik.
Best projectile also goes to Sheik. Fast, invisible and scaling knockback, that means you can win neutral with one button at high percents.

Best combo breaker...You mean the Nair im guessing? That Yoshi, Mario, Ness, Peach and a lot of other characters share?
Luigi's, Yoshi's, Pikachu's and Mario's Nair comes out at Frame 3, Ness' and Peach's at frame 5. Its not the best, its TIED for the best. Has higher damage and knockback when sweetspotted which might make it seem better, but that's not always what you want in every situation.

Best Usmash belongs to Lucas, while Mario/Luigi/Sheik/Doc being a close second if sweetspotted. And yeah, Fsmash is fast but it has little range and its active on frame 12-13 like most of the cast and again, it has no set up. It requires a good read from the Luigi player considering our speed to keep up with others.

Lol no, Luigi mains use Dsmash often as its one of his best moves and its active on Frame 6. Honestly, this would be one of the best dsmashes in the game and its one of the things that make Luigi VERY viable.

We're not the best damage on frame data on EVERY move. Nair is definitely one but that's about it. And we don't complain that we require reads, no. We complain that Sheik, the strongest in the game, is left untouched while we got our dthrow, our core mechanic, reworked so now we have to learn the character ALL over again and see what works at what percents and what doesn't while we have a laughable recovery comparable to Little Mac and no speed to keep up with all the other top tiers. Also, our punish game is horrible since we slide when we get hit while shielding so a good Luigi HAS to perfect shield in order to get damage in with our so called "amazing" data.

Lastly, on tournament results, the only good Luigi getting results is a Boss...on weekly tournaments...Now, when was the last time you saw a Luigi at the top 8 in any other being tournament after the patch?

So please, look up some info before opening your mouth. Thank you.

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. I really do. But you're getting too drastic. That whole 'recovery is comparable to mac's' really stuck out, so let's address that first.

Our recovery is nowhere near Mac level bad. Can he make it from off-screen? No. Can he make his recovery a lot less gimpable with a jump less cyclone? No. You want to see a Mac level recovery, then Roy and debatably ness are your two to focus on. Not to mention that edge guarding on smash 4 has more risk than reward in most cases (as giving up stage control is usually bad move). One point to consider. Do you really think Luigi's recovery is worse than melee Falco's? Because that's what Macs is. Saying Luigi's recovery is comparable to macs is like saying Luigi's recovery is comparable to melee Falco's. I'll let that settle in...

Our frame data to damage ratio is still overall best in the game. There's no refuting that. When our smashes have less lag than Mac's and still do about as much power and knockback as Wario's (who's smashes in general suck, but have splendid damage and knockback) it's hard to say that Luigi's frame data is worse than sheiks (if we're bringing the damage ratio into play). Also, getting in is hard, yes. But you were complaining about having to power shield. Power shielding is essential to smash 4 anyways. Look at top level play: they power shield most of the time anyways when using characters that have great mobility and have no trouble getting in (sheik being the prime example). Having to power shield isn't that that valid of an argument. We all could use the practice anyways.

Small thing to point out, we have the best Nair and the best combo breaker in one move. When you can break out of macs jab and do ~24ish percentage while doing so, you officially have the best Nair in the game (with yoshi admittedly in a close 2nd). Not to mention that a soft Nair is great for combo set ups.

Genuinely curious: how does Lucas have the best U-Smash? Doesn't it have a lot of lag at the end. If you can manage to hit it, then sure, kudos to you on your newest kill, but I seem to remember hitting and up-b on a whiffed U-Smash from Lucas (correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't save the replay so I'm going off memory).

One more thing. Luigi has more reward off reads than almost anyone else for the most part namely because up b is still a thing. Really hard to land, but it should be noted that I can almost get the tech chases down with it. If I can, then ANYONE can get a tech chase into up b. The risk is very high, I won't conceal that. But the reward is far greater. Other than up b, our rewards for reads aren't the best, but still aren't to be slept on.

I'll end these points with this: every Luigi main under the sun gets the frustration, especially when people who main other characters are only offering advice such as: 'get over it' or 'bout time that brain dead character got ner - oops, me brain fell out again!' But it's a trivial matter to complain about this nerf. I've explained it before so I'll explain it again: Luigi is low high tier. His weaknesses are pretty strong but his strengths still come out stronger. I don't want to keep stating this one fact, but I do want it to seep in. So please, consider this message and try to mellow out the salt. A little parting tip: pick up another character for a while and come back to Luigi. I got to learn how to use Falco and Greninja to the point where I find them to be strong secondaries, and I relearned Luigi to the point where I'm even better with him than I ever was pre-patch. Trust me when I say it does wonders for getting salt out.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Wow, some of you guys are so sad. How does writing a wall of text help you get over the nerfs? If you just want to ***** about the nerf since you are frustrated, no cares about it anymore. Focus on solutions and not problems. Like instead of complaining about how Luigi has a bad approach, brainstorm what possible options you have and how you can capitalize on other areas that Luigi is still strong with (i.e. comboing ability). Most people who played as Luigi seem to not realize how read heavy the game is in general, and now that Luigi requires reads they panic. If you don't want to read, play something else. Luigi is still pretty decent. Who can combo as well as he can? Not many. Try playing characters who can't combo, and don't have easy kills. Maybe you will realize how good Luigi is still (obviously not as good, but still viable).

To summarize, start trying to advance the Luigi meta instead of complaining about stuff you can't change.

 

[Xephilon]

I exaggerated a bit, I know. Something came out not exactly how I wanted to portray them. By compared to Mac is that when you used your second jump and get hit, there's no way of coming back. Most high/top tiers can or most likely make it back, we wont.

Lucas Usmash is better in terms of strength. I was under the assumption that the Usmash hits, not Usmash in general, cause then we're tied to a few but ours is still incredibly strong.

And well I don't know, we can have amazing frame data but its kind of hard to get them in when you Luigi has a hard time getting close at times but I digress.

Lastly, even though I said a while ago I would quit Luigi, I didn't. I still use him in tourneys and got 5th on the last one I went, just that there's some things that still bother me of the patch. Today I argued with a Sheik main. He said to give him points on why Sheik is "OP" instead of "just learning the match up". Gave him 6 points in general (including the fact that Sheik has a farther range than Marth) and such. His response? "Get over it" and blocked me from the comments. So yeah, Im learning Luigi again from scratch and have a way to go but I have yet to beat a good Sheik with him post patch...so yeah, sorry if I sound negative, didn't mean to.

I still love Luigi in general and I'm not dropping him, just gonna learn a secondary to make up for his bad MUs like Pikachu.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Giving up on a character without truly exploring ends up with characters like pikachu or yoshi in melee. Once their mechanics are explored you realize they are viable. I feel like Luigi still has too many good things about him to simply by low high tier. Time will tell, but complaining about nerfs won't help Luigi advance. I just don't want people abandoning Weegee cause he was nerfed. I want to see people try to rise above the nerf and push Luigi further. So try to keep the posting more solution oriented.

 

[sims796]

Giving up on a character without truly exploring ends up with characters like pikachu or yoshi in melee. Once their mechanics are explored you realize they are viable. I feel like Luigi still has to many good things about him to simply by low high tier. Time will tell, but complaining about nerfs won't help Luigi advance. I just don't want people abandoning Weegee cause he was nerfed. I want to see people try to rise above the nerf and push Luigi further. So try to keep the posting more solution oriented.

Do you have any thing to add other than the generic "stop complaining, git gud" post? No offense man, but that does nothing for the topic at hand. This is a discussion topic, we talk about the good and the bad.

I don't understand why the mod doesn't check these posts out more often. He already gave his verdict, just to immediately have posts contradict his. I mean, you gotta remember that the people along "walls of text" complaining are just venting their experiences on the discussion board. Of course us Luigi mains are practicing his moves. We're also not blind to his nerfs.

 

[MurphyPrime]

That post was more directed toward Xephilon more than anything. I was trying to echo what the moderator said, not contradict it. I actually don't see how I did contradict it. My point is complain about the nerfs all you want, cause it sucks, but try to also think of what Luigi still can do about it that makes him a good character.

 

[sims796]

My post came out a tad ruder than I meant it too. That said, calling people sad does nothing for no one. Xephilon's post was still well written and informative, and I for one appreciated his input.

If your tired of pessimistic posts like his, do something constructive like Green Stache and make an even longer post detailing why he's wrong. Mod says pessimistic posts are allowed so long as it has a point , and Xephilon's post had one. A shabby one,I admit, but he explaine his grievances.

 

[MurphyPrime]

My calling him sad wasn't meant as a great offence. More like it was slightly depressing to read rather than some one being pathetic. I should have picked better wording.

 

[Xephilon]

Wait you guys thought I was complaining cause I didn't like Luigi or something? On the contrary, I still like to use him and play him, even if he gets nerfed to the ground. The reason I wrote that in the first place is that I got mad/annoyed about what Dre said.
Luigi is not the easiest character
Luigi doesn't have the best anything except combo breaker (which I admit)
etc, etc.

I was defending Luigi at most, not insulting him. Just thought I should clear that up <_<

 

[FEFIZ]

Just take out some knock back from nair and/or down B last hit. But the nerf about te down throw knocback and angle was idiot =´/