In favor of the nerf

[Lichmassacre]

Idk about you guys, but I think the nerf was for the better. Now he can't kill out of Down throw unfortunately (unless it's Battlefield), but the nerf effectively made Luigi less brain dead. And I honestly don't view it as a bad thing he was a simple character, just he was that character you had to play keep away just to stay alive. But the nerf also effectively gave Luigi Mario's down throw up tilt combo, only this time it's even better. So it's the same deal, down throw and up tilt but if the player doesn't DI away from it, Luigi can effectively bring them well over 60% (maybe 70%), and follow up with a back air if possible and they're already nearly 100%. I think this nerf was needed.

 

[TriTails]

Key word: They don't DI away.

If they do DI away, Luigi can't even reach 50% pre-patch (Maybe even 40%).

Maybe the change was needed. But I would complain a lot less if it was a redistribution rather than just a straight punch to the face.

And nerfing us while Sheik was untouched? What madness is this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Key word: They don't DI away.

If they do DI away, Luigi can't even reach 50% pre-patch.

Maybe the change was needed. But I would complain a lot less if it was a redistribution rather than just a straight punch to the face.

And nerfing us while Sheik was untouched? What madness is this.

Shield mechanics hit her obnoxious needles vs. shield shenanigans (in fact the newest patch which prevents grabbing people during shieldstun assuming you're + on shield) is also a detriment to potential Sheik setups.

I agree that Luigi was hit harder than her but she's far from untouched. Way less stupid on a missed powershield now.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Key word: They don't DI away.

If they do DI away, Luigi can't even reach 50% pre-patch (Maybe even 40%).

Maybe the change was needed. But I would complain a lot less if it was a redistribution rather than just a straight punch to the face.

And nerfing us while Sheik was untouched? What madness is this.

They nerfed her 4 times now? I understand they don't want to just nerf her again, but I kinda agree.
Also yeah in a tournament setting the player's gonna DI away unless they somehow lose their second jump. But one thing I noticed is up tilt sucks the opponent in at the lower %. So maybe DI wouldn't work. I just found this out like an hour ago so I don't fully know the limitations just yet. But Bowser is probably even worse off than before with Luigi because of the combo...

 

[TriTails]

Shield mechanics hit her obnoxious needles vs. shield shenanigans (in fact the newest patch which prevents grabbing people during shieldstun assuming you're + on shield) is also a detriment to potential Sheik setups.

I agree that Luigi was hit harder than her but she's far from untouched. Way less stupid on a missed powershield now.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for telling me.

Although. The fact Luigi was hit harder then her is still a Fox Up-smash to the butt.

They nerfed her 4 times now? I understand they don't want to just nerf her again, but I kinda agree.
Also yeah in a tournament setting the player's gonna DI away unless they somehow lose their second jump. But one thing I noticed is up tilt sucks the opponent in at the lower %. So maybe DI wouldn't work. I just found this out like an hour ago so I don't fully know the limitations just yet. But Bowser is probably even worse off than before with Luigi because of the combo...

They 'nerfed' her 4 times, but most of them don't fix the things that make her obnoxious. Needles is still a 'I hit B and I win neutral' given on how invisible and unreacttable they are. And that thing's reach is huge. F-air somehow out-ranges Marth's. Lulzy F-air autocancels (Seriously enough. That thing already has 10 frames of landing lag. Why the hell the AC window is so generous?).

 

[Lichmassacre]

Huh. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for telling me.

Although. The fact Luigi was hit harder then her is still a Fox Up-smash to the butt.


They 'nerfed' her 4 times, but most of them don't fix the things that make her obnoxious. Needles is still a 'I hit B and I win neutral' given on how invisible and unreacttable they are. And that thing's reach is huge. F-air somehow out-ranges Marth's. Lulzy F-air autocancels (Seriously enough. That thing already has 10 frames of landing lag. Why the hell the AC window is so generous?).

At least she has practically no killpower now. It takes forever for her to get kills in. Though she still can kill with up Smash tipper, bouncing fish and up air

 

[TriTails]

At least she has practically no killpower now. It takes forever for her to get kills in. Though she still can kill with up Smash tipper, bouncing fish and up air

D-throw or F-throw combos into killing U-air. Soft N-air combos into BF. D-throw creates a 50:50 in whichnif they jump away, they can potentially get hit by an U-air, and if they airdodge, they can get Vansih'd. F-air also kills at late percents.

Maybe she takes forever, but it doesn't really matter when she can force basically everyone to approach and landings are trapped by the devil-made needles, or the fact she is so dang safe.

 

[Green L]

I don't think the nerf was necessary. The Sm4sh could of learned to adapt instead chose to whine about it. Luigi wasn't even close to broken. I always thought having great ko options was a good trade for his slow ground speed, 2nd slowest airspeed, lowest traction, super easy to edgeguard. There was a simple solution to avoid luigi's grab combos. SPOTDODGE

 

[MurphyPrime]

Yeah, it's sad that people cry nerf for things without actually thinking critically about what it means to the character. It would be like if people complained that Ness' back throw needs to be nerfed and then it got nerfed hard. I like that instead of crying about it in Melee, people learn to get around it (like Ken combo). People don't seem to care about anyone else getting nerfed as long as it isn't their mains. To everyone saying this nerf was for the best for everyone, it wasn't.

 

[TriTails]

I don't think the nerf was necessary. The Sm4sh could of learned to adapt instead chose to whine about it. Luigi wasn't even close to broken. I always thought having great ko options was a good trade for his slow ground speed, 2nd slowest airspeed, lowest traction, super easy to edgeguard. There was a simple solution to avoid luigi's grab combos. SPOTDODGE

And then he shorthops, N-airs, take you in the air in juuuuuust the perfect height for him to combo you.

Or maybe he'll get KOs below 70% for free because Run to Shield OoS FJP.

Although, all of those are mindgames. But people simply don't seem to grasp on how vital keeping Luigi out of his range. Fastest attack speed don't matter when you are outranged by basically anything and people run circles around you.

The main problem in Luigi isn't his tier position (Which is barely even top tier. If he IS top tier, then he'd be a very very shaky one), it's his design. He gets crapton of rewards by spamming the same tactic in low and mid lebelnplay, and those are usually FG players. Low and mid level play is a different keyword to top level, where we can see Luigi struggling because he loses kinda hard to Sheik and Rosalina. Greninja and Pac also wins against him. LUIGI LOSES TO EFFING LITTLE MAC.

But... yeah. This happens.

 

[Green L]

it's his design

I actually think pre patch luigi had a great design. His down throw flows together perfectly. Besides down throw nado, back air and Nair could KO opponents too. As a melee player, I deal with far more powerful things than luigi's grab combos. Like falco's super easy dair spike, wobbling, planking, fox in general etc. No one in the melee community complains about it. Even after all that, as luigi, a mid tier, I adapted to all the foxes, marths, and ice climbers and won local tourneys.

those are usually FG players

True but those are low level players who lose to such a predictable tactic where there's lots of input lag. If any of the luigi haters picked up luigi and just spam dash grab and fireballs at a tourney, they'd get owned real quick by GOOD players who ADAPT. They'd probably drop luigi after noticing his slow speed and mobility makes it hard to get a grab.
And yeah you're right. A luigi main could catch a spotdodge with a nair but as far as the Sm4sh community knows, pre patch luigi doesn't need reads and skill either right?

 

[TriTails]

I actually think pre patch luigi had a great design. His down throw flows together perfectly. Besides down throw nado, back air and Nair could KO opponents too. As a melee player, I deal with far more powerful things than luigi's grab combos. Like falco's super easy dair spike, wobbling, planking, fox in general etc. No one in the melee community complains about it. Even after all that, as luigi, a mid tier, I adapted to all the foxes, marths, and ice climbers and won local tourneys.

His pre-patch design was actually pretty horrible from my view point. He can't get any of his momentum going unless a) he lands a soft N-air or b) he gets a grab. The former is usually impractical due to airspeed, and D-throw was simply the most effective yet most rewarding option he has (And possibly even the entire cast). We got his real quick frame 6 grab and frame 8 dashgrab, along with rage really made our kill setups kinda obnoxious (U-throw -> airdodge bait -> Cyclone killed Sheik at 68% with 130% rage wtf. And that's the 3DS version). The community needs a character that isn't so focused on one move, because then the character would become too polarized, even if Luigi didn't need to go for the D-throw ALL the time. He can still wound you without D-throw, that's for sure, but once a Luigi lands the D-throw, the crowd go insane on how this character is so effing braindead.

Still wouldn't explain on how he wasn't compensated very well tho.

True but those are low level players who lose to such a predictable tactic where there's lots of input lag.

but as far as the Sm4sh community knows, pre patch luigi doesn't need reads and skill either right?

Welcome to the Smash 4 community, where nearly everyone decides it would be better if we craft out buffs and nerfs instead of adaptating. Having patches help the game a lot (If there weren't any patches, Smash 4 would explode with pre-patch Sheik and Rosalina), but the players are simply too spoiled by them, even going as far to change from 'Oh look. A new jank. Let's find a way around' to 'wtf is this kind of jank. NERF IT! While we're on it, BUFF MY MAINS!'. Granted, I also complain about stuffs (Sheik neeeddddlllleeesssss!!!!!), but I DO try to actually work around it, such as mindgaming with shields and tomahawks. I would be happy if everyone did the same, but no, Smash 4 players are just so ****ing lazy.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Welcome to the Smash 4 community, where nearly everyone decides it would be better if we craft out buffs and nerfs instead of adaptating. Having patches help the game a lot (If there weren't any patches, Smash 4 would explode with pre-patch Sheik and Rosalina), but the players are simply too spoiled by them, even going as far to change from 'Oh look. A new jank. Let's find a way around' to 'wtf is this kind of jank. NERF IT! While we're on it, BUFF MY MAINS!'. Granted, I also complain about stuffs (Sheik neeeddddlllleeesssss!!!!!), but I DO try to actually work around it, such as mindgaming with shields and tomahawks. I would be happy if everyone did the same, but no, Smash 4 players are just so ****ing lazy.[/QUOTE]
There are probably people out there that are demanding that Donkey Kong's Cargo throw combo be nerfed, or something stupid like that. The patches are great but Smash 4 players are way too lazy. All they do is whine about anything they can't get around. For awhile I was whining about Luigi's down throw but eventually I learned to just suck it up and accept anything that made a character good and I was infinitely having more fun with the game.

 

[Green L]

The community needs a character that isn't so focused on one move, because then the character would become too polarized, even if Luigi didn't need to go for the D-throw ALL the time.

I can say the same thing about half the cast. A bunch of characters spam a grab followup until they stop working at higher percentage. Pit, game and watch, Mario, Falcon, ROB, sheik, diddy, Donkey Kong,etc. EVERY single opponent that plays one of these characters are grab happy like luigi at low percent until it stops working. I once saw a match between a falcon and game and watch. It's was like watching a down throw simulator. For some characters, it's their ONLY combo.

 

[Xephilon]

What I'm grateful for in this patch: Take away our easy bake kill confirms. Guys, this was both annoying to do and to face (At least IMO) and takes away from the excitement of the match. Luigi is still Luigi. Our favorite green plumble with good combos and still hilariously fun to use. And to prove that he's still good, I entered a tourney with him and I got second place in a 24 man tournament. (Guess who I lost to? -_-)

Things I hate about this patch: Sheik. Really, they pretty much BUFFED Sheik (indirectly). Her needles do less damage on shield...Yay...But wait, the shield stun now makes punishing her Fair even harder so our ONLY option to even have a shot at punishing it is to perfect shield which, either way, a good Sheik won't let it happen cause she can jab as soon as she lands. Oh, and they left her 50/50 chance kills out of dthrow. Awesome.

Things I hate more than the "untouched" Sheik: The Sheik mains. "Omfg she doesn't need to be nerfed, she's perfectly balanced! You just need to git gud and be able to work around my fast, good range and lagless moves and my invincible recovery!" While if you look at ANY Luigi combo vid post patch, most of the comments will be on the lines of "Wow, Luigi didn't get nerfed, he got buffed!" "Wow, he dthrow the guy, did a few things, fthrow and jab locked and then finished with Late Nair to Up B, so freaking brain dead smh."

Seriously...its stupidly annoying...

 

[Green L]

Wow, he dthrow the guy, did a few things, fthrow and jab locked and then finished with Late Nair to Up B, so freaking brain dead smh."

I watched that same video and the only new combo is down throw to down smash. Everything else he could do since the release of sm4sh. Luigi was straight up nerfed man.

 

[Xephilon]

I watched that same video and the only new combo is down throw to down smash. Everything else he could do since the release of sm4sh. Luigi was straight up nerfed man.

Dthrow to just about any smash to be exact (depending on char) and yeah, Luigi was straight up nerfed. After 70%, you can only get one aerial in IF you're lucky and after 100% dthrow isn't even a viable option anymore, its better to go Fthrow or Bthrow and then get a kill with a smash but Sheik can keep her 50/50s though, That's fine.

Oh and forgot to mention, Our Down B are easier to get out of too, so that's another nerf right there.

 

[Kursed]

I don't want to say Luigi is ruined. But now all of my most effective options for kills in my arsenal are gone. What I notice:

- Luigi can't D-Throw to N-Air to kill

-Luigi can't D-Throw to Down+B to kill

-Unless the character is a super light weight, you cannot combo D-Throw to F-Air off the bat anymore. You need some percent to actually pull it off now.



Ever since this patch came out... They changed Luigi to the point where I have no style anymore! All the moves I built my style around are Gone.

This is like telling Michael Jackson- "We need you to preform but you can't do the moonwalk, you can't grab your crotch, you can't go "Hee Hee", None of that. Basically I need to find a new main or try to find a way around this god forbidden nerf.

 

[Xephilon]

Yep, so now we have to find other ways to kill. The ones I normally use in order are:
1) Usmash (sweetspotting often)
2) Dsmash (comes out fast and has little lag)
3) Bair (Easy to land, pretty safe, good near the ledge)
4) Fsmash (Highly recommend this one at 90-110% range. Works better depending on how you angle it and if you pivot)
5) Grounded Up B. (We all know why, but use it ONLY as a punish or a good read)

 

[Axel311]

I think the nerf was necessary, it made Luigi less braindead. It's a good nerf.

But what doesn't make sense is characters above him not being nerfed in the last update.

 

[Lichmassacre]

I don't want to say Luigi is ruined. But now all of my most effective options for kills in my arsenal are gone. What I notice:

- Luigi can't D-Throw to N-Air to kill

-Luigi can't D-Throw to Down+B to kill

-Unless the character is a super light weight, you cannot combo D-Throw to F-Air off the bat anymore. You need some percent to actually pull it off now.



Ever since this patch came out... They changed Luigi to the point where I have no style anymore! All the moves I built my style around are Gone.

This is like telling Michael Jackson- "We need you to preform but you can't do the moonwalk, you can't grab your crotch, you can't go "Hee Hee", None of that. Basically I need to find a new main or try to find a way around this god forbidden nerf.

One thing you can do at 0% is down throw to up B sweetspot. Kinda hard to land but it's nearly 30%

 

[MurphyPrime]

It wasn't a good nerf though. Cause they didn't make anything Luigi can get kills off of that aren't hard reads. Like if they buffed his back throw a bit, then that would be cool.

 

[Axel311]

It wasn't a good nerf though. Cause they didn't make anything Luigi can get kills off of that aren't hard reads..

This is how it works with most characters. No combo kill confirms out of grab, have to get a read. It's not inherently a bad thing.

Luigi still has a kill throw and a stupidly safe upsmash so you really have nothing to complain about. He still has much better kill options than most characters.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I think the basis of the complaints about the nerfs are less about Luigi being better than most of the roster still. It's more about having the ones above Luigi have a further gap now. These patches shouldn't be about nerfing, it should be about buffing the DDDs or Bowser Jrs of the game. It's like, why nerf Luigi hard (down throw was cheap, so nerfing it was needed. But not helping out other aspects of his game is dumb) when you can buff the other characters lower than him?

 

[TurboLink]

I don't think the nerf was necessary. The Sm4sh could of learned to adapt instead chose to whine about it. Luigi wasn't even close to broken. I always thought having great ko options was a good trade for his slow ground speed, 2nd slowest airspeed, lowest traction, super easy to edgeguard. There was a simple solution to avoid luigi's grab combos. SPOTDODGE

It's funny when Luigi players say this, but I wonder how you would all feel if everyone had a grab game as stupid as Luigi's was.

 

[Kursed]

As a Luigi player myself I have to admit that there was pretty broken things about Luigi. Especially Down throw to Cyclone. I was actually nonchalant about ridding of that.

 

[Green L]

Luigi still has a kill throw and a stupidly safe upsmash so you really have nothing to complain about. He still has much better kill options than most characters.

Luigi's kill throw and up smash don't matter since he's too slow to use it. On a competitive standpoint, why play luigi when you can do the same thing as mario but with better mobility and more combos?

It's funny when Luigi players say this, but I wonder how you would all feel if everyone had a grab game as stupid as Luigi's was.

It's funny how people complain that Luigi's grab combos were broken yet don't mention his crippling weaknesses. A recovery almost as easy as little mac to intercept, lowest traction, airspeed slower than ganon, etc. All you have to do is SPOTDODGE luigi's grab. It's not that hard.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Who needs a buff is Zelda and Samus. Zelda has literally nothing good going for her specials so buff anything else really, but Samus hasn't even gotten anything. No buffs, no nerfs, absolutely nothing. Palutena was meant for customs, so blah.

 

[Axel311]

Luigi's kill throw and up smash don't matter since he's too slow to use it. On a competitive standpoint, why play luigi when you can do the same thing as mario but with better mobility and more combos?

It's funny how people complain that Luigi's grab combos were broken yet don't mention his crippling weaknesses. A recovery almost as easy as little mac to intercept, lowest traction, airspeed slower than ganon, etc. All you have to do is SPOTDODGE luigi's grab. It's not that hard.

Saying his kill throw and upsmash don't matter because of his bad aerial speed is ridiculous in my opinion. His ground speed is pretty much in the middle of the pack, bad aerial speed doesn't negate his amazing upsmash and kill throw. His airspeed does suck but the character is still awesome because of how much he gets out of grab, which even minus kill confirms his fireball to grab game is still amazing.

Is mario a better character now? Very possibly. I agree that him being a worse version of mario is a concern. But wasn't mario mostly just a worse version of luigi pre patch? That's what ZeRo seemed to think in his tier list video. And I don't think it's fair to only compare him to Mario. Compared to the rest of the cast, Luigi is still definitely one of the better characters. Probably still high tier.

Boss just won Xanadu this week with nerfed Luigi convincingly (if I remember correctly he didn't drop a set), he's clearly still extremely viable.

But I think it's too early to say that Luigi is now just a bad Mario clone, his new dthrow offers a lot more possibilities that I doubt have been fully explored yet.

 

[Green L]

which even minus kill confirms his fireball to grab game is still amazing

Fireball to grab never was guaranteed plus all the opponents have to do is perfect shield.

Boss just won Xanadu this week with nerfed Luigi convincingly (if I remember correctly he didn't drop a set), he's clearly still extremely viable.

Boss is just a skilled player. He's been winning for a long time and just because one person wins a lot with him doesn't mean luigi is still a high tier character. I think he's around mid tier. He has to many weaknesses and bad matchups.

his new dthrow offers a lot more possibilities that I doubt have been fully explored yet.

You are completely wrong there. The only new combo is down throw down smash. Even then, why do that instead of down time upsmash?

Saying his kill throw and upsmash don't matter because of his bad aerial speed is ridiculous in my opinion. His ground speed is pretty much in the middle of the pack, bad aerial speed doesn't negate his amazing upsmash and kill throw

Running around spamming upsmash isn't a good idea because he's still a slow runner. It works for Fox because he's much faster than luigi is.

I agree that him being a worse version of mario is a concern. But wasn't mario mostly just a worse version of luigi pre patch?

Absolutely not, both characters had different combos. Luigi could end a stock with down throw to back air/nair. Mario is much more mobile than luigi is and he can chain a few up airs together and had the speed to do more followups. I think 1.1.1 luigi is bad designed. Not enough strengths to make up for his weaknesses plus he's almost completely invalidated by mario. Pre patch luigi had a great balance of pros and cons.

 

[TriTails]

I can say the same thing about half the cast. A bunch of characters spam a grab followup until they stop working at higher percentage. Pit, game and watch, Mario, Falcon, ROB, sheik, diddy, Donkey Kong,etc. EVERY single opponent that plays one of these characters are grab happy like luigi at low percent until it stops working. I once saw a match between a falcon and game and watch. It's was like watching a down throw simulator. For some characters, it's their ONLY combo.

I don't think you understand the differences between 'grab happy' and 'relies on one throw to do everything'.

So, yeah. I just noticed how important hard reads are. I rarely let people live above 150% now, because if I don't back throw, I up throw. Even if they don't kill the opponent directly, they do send people in disadvantage state. If I'm not doing the L button, I go for U-smash.

My Luigi went from 'SHFF aerials plus D-throw the character' to 'SHFF aerials and... SMASH ATTACK THE CHARACTAH!'. I suggest y'all pick Falco or Ganon as a secondary to get good at reads. Trust me. Harď reads are very important now.

Forget guaranteed kill setups. They are no more, so let's not open up our own wounds by looking back in the past. Instead, be grateful we have arguably one of the best smash attacks set in the game. Let's use this time to un-spoil ourselves, so if the kill setups ever come back, we don't have to grab onto them like they are our life and saviour.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

The nerf made me the happiest being on this planet.

 

[sims796]

Get outta here Pit! Go back to your clouds and Eggplant Wizards! Real men fight giant fire breathing turtles anyway!

 

[Omega_Ra1der]

This nerf hurt me a lot but I am slowly adapting to the changes. However because at first, I have been using one of my secondaries which captain falcon more of the late. Plus it motivated me to get good.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Get outta here Pit! Go back to your clouds and Eggplant Wizards! Real men fight giant fire breathing turtles anyway!

Bruh, real men fight f*cking Hades, gods and goddesses

 

[sims796]

Bruh, real men fight f*cking Hades, gods and goddesses

Pfft, our guy fell into the sun and came out a GOD, then survived the universe being imploded and reborn or something. Be glad Luigi's too tired from that to bring his A game, or he'll be top of the tier list.

 

[MurphyPrime]

And Luigi never gets the credit for his badassery.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Tbh it didnt take me as long as I thought it would to adapt to the changed uigi. I play more like I did in previous itterations of smash. Still love the character

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Pfft, our guy fell into the sun and came out a GOD, then survived the universe being imploded and reborn or something. Be glad Luigi's too tired from that to bring his A game, or he'll be top of the tier list.

Luigi's a little *****. Scared of ghosts, *****, I'm not scared of anything

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceTo4ogctxM

I recommend checking out the entire tournament (not just the luigi play) this is a great channel.
While I don't play Luigi seriously I do like the character as much as every other. I have time today so I will be watching the vids of this tourney and seeing how Luigi is still BOSS as long as you actually play the character and are not some bandwagon jumper.