In favor of the nerf

[Lichmassacre]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceTo4ogctxM

I recommend checking out the entire tournament (not just the luigi play) this is a great channel.
While I don't play Luigi seriously I do like the character as much as every other. I have time today so I will be watching the vids of this tourney and seeing how Luigi is still BOSS as long as you actually play the character and are not some bandwagon jumper.

Let's be real, who doesn't watch VGBootCamp? Most people by now probably know Boss won the tournament with Luigi.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Let's be real, who doesn't watch VGBootCamp? Most people by now probably know Boss won the tournament with Luigi.

Well yeah I guess. It was more just to show that Luigi still does good and can win. I just checked it out today I am watching through the vids I had work yesterday so maybe others didn't see it yet. Don't count out the other competitors though there are a lot of good people there and each could have taken it over Boss like Feel Tension, Mr Eric, Logic.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I feel like Xanadu isn't necessarily the best show case of Luigi. It's cool to see but in a more competitive tourney (not just a local) it might not be applicable. We will have to wait and see if the Luigi meta keeps progressing.

 

[sims796]

Luigi's a little *****. Scared of ghosts, *****, I'm not scared of anything

Whatchu gonna do, possess a little girl at us or something? No need alive is gonna keep the green thunder down.

 

[Exegguter]

I myself am actually doing better in tournaments with Luigi now after the nerf lmao. Maybe it's because I'm not playing so static anymore.

I love this character now and he's still most definitely a top tier (imo).

 

[Lichmassacre]

I myself am actually doing better in tournaments with Luigi now after the nerf lmao. Maybe it's because I'm not playing so static anymore.

I love this character now and he's still most definitely a top tier (imo).

I can see him still as a top tier, but now I see him more as top-high tier. In my opinion the tier list goes as such:
Bottom tier:
Zelda
Low tier:
Samus, Palutena, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, King Dedede (top tier on the Smash 4 waifu tier list), Robin, Marth/Lucina
Lower Mid:
Charizard, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Toon Link, Little Mac, Kirby
Mid:
Falco, Mega Man, Mr. Game & Watch, Shulk, Greninja
Upper Mid:
Ike, Pit/Dark Pit, Roy, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer
High:
Wario, Lucas, Pacman, Villager, Yoshi, Lucario, Ryu, Donkey Kong, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus
Top:
Fox, Peach, Olimar, Ness, Sanic, Rosalina and Luma, Mario, Pikachu, Sheik
God:
Miis, Shrek, Goku, Cory, Gabe Newell, everyone else, Daddy Sakurai

 

[Exegguter]

I like this list a lot lol and I'm not fan of personal tier lists XD.

You placed dhd en Wii fit very well Lichmassacre

 

[Lichmassacre]

I like this list a lot lol and I'm not fan of personal tier lists XD.

You placed dhd en Wii fit very well Lichmassacre

A lot of it is based on stuff that's already been proven (like Meta Knight and Donkey Kong NOT being bottom tier; looking at you Event Hubs) but otherwise it's opinionated. Also no one should use Event Hubs for tier lists on any game. Ever. Unless it's Melee because that's somehow the only list people can get accurate.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Whatchu gonna do, possess a little girl

^^^ is all your villain does

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I can see him still as a top tier, but now I see him more as top-high tier. In my opinion the tier list goes as such:
Bottom tier:
Zelda
Low tier:
Samus, Palutena, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, King Dedede (top tier on the Smash 4 waifu tier list), Robin, Marth/Lucina
Lower Mid:
Charizard, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Toon Link, Little Mac, Kirby
Mid:
Falco, Mega Man, Mr. Game & Watch, Shulk, Greninja
Upper Mid:
Ike, Pit/Dark Pit, Roy, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer
High:
Wario, Lucas, Pacman, Villager, Yoshi, Lucario, Ryu, Donkey Kong, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus
Top:
Fox, Peach, Olimar, Ness, Sanic, Rosalina and Luma, Mario, Pikachu, Sheik
God:
Miis, Shrek, Goku, Cory, Gabe Newell, everyone else, Daddy Sakurai

Why would you ever place the Pit's and R.O.B anywhere else but high tier???

 

[Lichmassacre]

Why would you ever place the Pit's and R.O.B anywhere else but high tier???

There are a lot and I mean a LOT of characters worth being in the high/top tier spots. But they all can't go there. Upper mid isn't far from high anyways.

 

[Omega_Ra1der]

New combo for anyone duck hunt weight and above at 0% u-throw uair (uair again or fair depends where is the opponent for followups) u-tilt and follow up from there.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Why would you ever place the Pit's and R.O.B anywhere else but high tier???

I hope you don't think his tier list is anything more than a joke.

 

[hey_there]

The nerfs were necessary as Luigi was pretty cancerous to play against. The people complaining the hardest about his nerfs are fraud Luigis. Good riddance imo.

As far as his buffs go, I've been incorporating dair spike to my game much more and getting a lot of offstage KOs with it, so I'm pretty thankful for that.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Or maybe Luigi mains from other games who were happy to finally have their main be top tier? It's all a matter of opinion whether you like/dislike the nerf. The severity of the nerf is generally what most people have issue with. Also the lack of nerfs to the characters higher than luigi.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Or maybe Luigi mains from other games who were happy to finally have their main be top tier? It's all a matter of opinion whether you like/dislike the nerf. The severity of the nerf is generally what most people have issue with. Also the lack of nerfs to the characters higher than luigi.

I think the problem was it was mindless. You had to rack up damage and then get a grab not even at a high % and there is nothing to be done after that. I'm not saying Luigi was in need of this nerf badly and they could have probably done something better so it still connected but w/e. Really though they should stop looking to nerf characters and instead look to even them out and buff the lower ones.

Ike and Diddy are great examples of fixing problems and making the character more balanced.

 

[Green L]

The nerfs were necessary as Luigi was pretty cancerous to play against.

I disagree. Either the opponent didn't adapt and spotdodge OR the luigi main was the more skilled player. Simple as that. I think it's the Sm4sh community's fault for not learning to exploit luigi's weaknesses.
Limited characters make them more boring.

The people complaining the hardest about his nerfs are fraud Luigis

That may be true or some don't like how luigi is outclassed by mario in nearly every way. If you want to play a character with a similar grab game but NONE of luigi's weaknesses? Pick game and watch, Mario, Shiek, Diddy, falcon, etc. I don't mind playing luigi in 64, melee, or brawl when he was bad but being invalidated by a bunch of characters sucks and brings nothing new that the previous luigi's couldn't.

 

[hey_there]

spotdodge

It's extremely insulting to assume that nobody in a scene with a strong Luigi player bothered to adapt to Luigi. It's also not true. The reason spotdodging never caught on as a counter to Luigi is because it didn't work. Spotdodging was counterd by Luigi either pivot grabbing or waiting a moment before dash grabbing. Properly spaced fireballs on shield would keep and opponent in shield stun while Luigi could dash grab. Spotdodging was a good strat against bad Luigis, bad strat against good Luigis.

I agree that limited characters are boring though. Luigi is no longer limited by 4 moves overshadowing the rest of his moveset, so he's less boring.

outclassed

Luigi isn't outclased by Mario anymore than he already was. Doc may be outclassed by Mario, but Luigi's match up spread has advantages and disadvantages compared to Mario's. The patch didn't change the fact that Luigi already lost to ZSS, Sheik, and Rosa. His winning match ups aren't as decisive, but they're still winning match ups.

Luigi was outclassed by Mario in 64, borderline unviable in Melee, and unviable in Brawl. Don't be dramatic about his cheese being patched out because Sm4sh Luigi is still his best iteration by far.

 

[Lichmassacre]

borderline unviable in Melee

Didn't you hear? It's 21XX now. The century where Weegee mains are dominant and can summon misfires at will. -YouTube comment from VGBootCamp Big House 5 Melee video
Also all the patches in general IMO have been great. Some instances not so much (like Bowser's down Smash angle change, that "buff"...) but otherwise I'm chill will all the patches. Most balanced Smash game anyways (not counting Project M) due to the patches. Not that I hate previous games for being unbalanced, not at all, just it's nice to see a balanced game.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Didn't you hear? It's 21XX now. The century where Weegee mains are dominant and can summon misfires at will. -YouTube comment from VGBootCamp Big House 5 Melee video
Also all the patches in general IMO have been great. Some instances not so much (like Bowser's down Smash angle change, that "buff"...) but otherwise I'm chill will all the patches. Most balanced Smash game anyways (not counting Project M) due to the patches. Not that I hate previous games for being unbalanced, not at all, just it's nice to see a balanced game.

I believe it's actually 20LX as follows:

The year is 20LX. Everyone plays Luigi at TAS levels of perfection and can activate the Invisible Ceiling Glitch at will. Because of this, the winner of a match depends solely on which Luigi starts on the left side. The RPS metagame has evolved to ridiculous levels due to it being the only remaining factor to decide matches.

This is from a reddit page:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3nqr3k/the_self_activated_invisible_ceiling_glitch_a/

 

[Green L]

The reason spotdodging never caught on as a counter to Luigi is because it didn't work. Spotdodging was counterd by Luigi either pivot grabbing or waiting a moment before dash grabbing. Properly spaced fireballs on shield would keep and opponent in shield stun while Luigi could dash grab. Spotdodging was a good strat against bad Luigis, bad strat against good Luigis.

If you spotdodge luigi can't grab you. Simple. Unless you saying a good luigi main would READ your spotdodge? But the Sm4sh community thinks pre patch luigi didn't need reads or intelligence. Second, fireball to dash grab never was guaranteed. You could jab them, spotdodge, reflect/ absorb or perfect shield them.

Luigi is no longer limited by 4 moves overshadowing the rest of his moveset, so he's less boring.

I disagree. He has less combos and is way less viable. That's the sheer definition of "limited" luigi has less combos now compared to prepatch.

Sm4sh Luigi is still his best iteration by far.

Nope. Sm4sh luigi has the least amount of combos, weaker damage and the worst recovery second to 64 luigi. Even brawl luigi has more tricks and abilities than current luigi.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Melee Luigi is the best imo. Smash 4 Luigi is actually pretty similar in terms of combo ability. Seems to irritate people that Luigi can combo so well. They forget that Luigi has a pretty awful approach to balance his comboing ability.

 

[sims796]

I'm more annoyed at his indirect nerfs. This change to shielding hurts his already lackluster approach.

 

[Green L]

They forget that Luigi has a pretty awful approach to balance his comboing ability.

This is why I agree this nerf wasn't necessary. He doesn't have speed and mobility like diddy and most characters run circles around him either on the ground and especially in the air

 

[TriTails]

The nerfs were necessary as Luigi was pretty cancerous to play against. The people complaining the hardest about his nerfs are fraud Luigis. Good riddance imo.

As far as his buffs go, I've been incorporating dair spike to my game much more and getting a lot of offstage KOs with it, so I'm pretty thankful for that.

Sheik is WAY more cancerous to play against.

Didn't got directly nerfed.

I admit Luigi was a cancer ever since 1.0.4. But does that really mean he should be nerfed instead of being redistributed? If his design was his problem and not his strength, why is this character not getting a design fix and instead was weakened moderately with little compensations? Why a character that can catch your landings from a mile away with needles or can approach with a super safe F-air didn't got touched? EVEN THOUGH her F-air outranges Marth's? With intangible arm?

Let that sink real quick.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

It's extremely insulting to assume that nobody in a scene with a strong Luigi player bothered to adapt to Luigi. It's also not true. The reason spotdodging never caught on as a counter to Luigi is because it didn't work. Spotdodging was counterd by Luigi either pivot grabbing or waiting a moment before dash grabbing. Properly spaced fireballs on shield would keep and opponent in shield stun while Luigi could dash grab. Spotdodging was a good strat against bad Luigis, bad strat against good Luigis.

I agree that limited characters are boring though. Luigi is no longer limited by 4 moves overshadowing the rest of his moveset, so he's less boring.


Luigi isn't outclased by Mario anymore than he already was. Doc may be outclassed by Mario, but Luigi's match up spread has advantages and disadvantages compared to Mario's. The patch didn't change the fact that Luigi already lost to ZSS, Sheik, and Rosa. His winning match ups aren't as decisive, but they're still winning match ups.

Luigi was outclassed by Mario in 64, borderline unviable in Melee, and unviable in Brawl. Don't be dramatic about his cheese being patched out because Sm4sh Luigi is still his best iteration by far.

I don't think these chicken littles understand this concept. Fireball/Down Throw/Down B/Forward Air- pretty much that was Luigi. Now people are trying more and going for more Tornado gimps or down air spikes, jab resets into UpB ,jab into Fsmash. Not that it wasn't possible before but honestly it was mostly just look for a grab so you can DownB

I disagree. He has less combos and is way less viable. That's the sheer definition of "limited" luigi has less combos now compared to prepatch.

Nope. Sm4sh luigi has the least amount of combos, weaker damage and the worst recovery second to 64 luigi. Even brawl luigi has more tricks and abilities than current luigi.

Are you trolling? The patch actually opened up different combos for Luigi especially on fastfallers. Luigi while having a predictable recovery like 90% of the roster does have one of the better ones. Missile>double jump>Tornado>punch he can make it back vertically and horizontally and actually get back on the stage because 'lol edgehog' is gone.

 

[hey_there]

stuff

Forgive my bluntness, but you don't sound like someone that's actually played any other smash game competitively lol. The competitive climate of every other smash game left Luigi almost completely unviable for tournament play. Brawl Luigi can all the tricks he wants, good luck getting passed Brawl MK/Snake/Marth/ICs/ZSS. And lmao at any character having a worse recovery in sm4sh than in melee/PM.

The balance team has to cater to everyone, not just Luigi mains, and it was really frustrating for a lot of people to play against Luigi. They made the right decision for the most people that play the game. Anyway, seems like you've made up your mind that Luigi is unplayable now and I probably won't be changing your mind that it's all for the best, so I won't argue it further with you. If you find other smash Luigis much more enjoyable to play, then I suggest you stop investing time in a game you no longer enjoy and pick up one of the other smash games. They're all very fun, so I'm sure you'll have a good time.

Melee Luigi

I agree melee Luigi is the most fun to play in a vaccuum, but spacies murder Luigi so hard that using Luigi in tournament is masochistic imo (unless you're a god like Abate or Eddy Mexico). Wavedashing for approaches would be nice again, but it's scary to think of what the rest of the cast might look like with wavedashes too, though.

Sheik

It sank in months ago. I'm aware of what playing against Sheik is like, but the topic of the thread is about Luigi's balance changes so I don't think Sheik is really relevant here. As for compensations ... what more do you want? Luigi is still a really good character. He loses to fast characters that basically kite him because he's slow and has awful traction. Considering how much Sakurai loves tradition (Ganondorf's moveset T_T), those attributes aren't likely to change. But Luigi still has ridiculous frame data and damage. More airspeed might be nice, but thinking about it from the perspective of other characters is pretty brutal.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I would argue Marth is worse for Melee Luigi. Cause Luigi can't really approach Marth and Can't combo him well either.

 

[Green L]

Now people are trying more and going for more Tornado gimps or down air spikes, jab resets into UpB ,jab into Fsmash.

Luigi mains have been doing this for a long time prepatch.

patch actually opened up different combos for Luigi especially on fastfallers.

No it didn't. The only new combo is down throw down smash. THAT IT. Luigi doesn't have anything else new.

ssile>double jump>Tornado>punch he can make it back vertically and horizontally and actually get back on the stage because 'lol edgehog' is gone

That's only true if you don't edgeguard. Luigi's recovery goes far but it's it's very slow and predictable. His recovery is almost as easy to slap away as little mac's.

 

[Lichmassacre]

No it didn't. The only new combo is down throw down smash. THAT IT. Luigi doesn't have anything else new.

It seems like you haven't been experimenting at all with his new down throw. No offense, but it seems like you REALLY haven't been experimenting.

 

[Green L]

It seems like you haven't been experimenting at all with his new down throw. No offense, but it seems like you REALLY haven't been experimenting.

I have been experimenting and I'm right. Nothing new besides down throw down smash

 

[Yonder]

I have been experimenting and I'm right. Nothing new besides down throw down smash

D throw to Up B on fast fallers [Sheik, Fox notably] at 0% is an automatic 31%. New to this patch.

Not practical since they can't have a single % of damage on them before doing this, but it works.

 

[Green L]

D throw to Up B on fast fallers [Sheik, Fox notably] at 0% is an automatic 31%. New to this patch.

I know that but he could do that in the air pre patch and it's impractical as soon as that combo ends luigi will be vulnerable from the massive end lag to his up b and he'll take a huge punish for doing so

 

[Yonder]

I know that but he could do that in the air pre patch and it's impractical as soon as that combo ends luigi will be vulnerable from the massive end lag to his up b and he'll take a huge punish for doing so

Yes, but the grounded version is new to this patch and couldn't be done before. So it is a new combo like d throw to d smash. Not too useful, but it is new when you said he only got one new combo.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi is still a really good character. He loses to fast characters that basically kite him because he's slow and has awful traction.

Woah wait. You immediately disagreed with yourself there.

How can Luigi be a 'really good character' if he loses to fast characters, which are the definition of most top tiers? He already lost hard to Sheik, now the MU is worse. He already lost hard to Rosalina, now the MU is worse (Not because speed but because Luma). He already lost to Greninja, now the MU is worse. He already lost to ZSS, now the MU is worse.

Considering how much Sakurai loves tradition (Ganondorf's moveset T_T), those attributes aren't likely to change. But Luigi still has ridiculous frame data and damage. More airspeed might be nice, but thinking about it from the perspective of other characters is pretty brutal.

Whenever people bring up Luigi's nerfs, I always see this 'Luigi still has absurd damage and frame data'. Okay. How do you LAND them tho?

People who know how to fight against Luigi camp the whole match, and there's not much we can do, really. Projectiles camp? we do just fine. But if the opposition just runs away the whole match like what Ito did against a Luigi a few months ago, how are we landing our 'ridiculous frame data and damage'?

Would like some hindsights on this. People praise the camp style against Luigi pre-patch and now it works better than ever because of his reduced rewards. I don't see how better D-air or D-smash make up for this.

 

[TurboLink]

Woah wait. You immediately disagreed with yourself there.

How can Luigi be a 'really good character' if he loses to fast characters, which are the definition of most top tiers? He already lost hard to Sheik, now the MU is worse. He already lost hard to Rosalina, now the MU is worse (Not because speed but because Luma). He already lost to Greninja, now the MU is worse. He already lost to ZSS, now the MU is worse.


Whenever people bring up Luigi's nerfs, I always see this 'Luigi still has absurd damage and frame data'. Okay. How do you LAND them tho?

People who know how to fight against Luigi camp the whole match, and there's not much we can do, really. Projectiles camp? we do just fine. But if the opposition just runs away the whole match like what Ito did against a Luigi a few months ago, how are we landing our 'ridiculous frame data and damage'?

Would like some hindsights on this. People praise the camp style against Luigi pre-patch and now it works better than ever because of his reduced rewards. I don't see how better D-air or D-smash make up for this.

Not every character can camp.

 

[Green L]

People who know how to fight against Luigi camp the whole match, and there's not much we can do, really. Projectiles camp? we do just fine. But if the opposition just runs away the whole match like what Ito did against a Luigi a few months ago, how are we landing our 'ridiculous frame data and damage'?

I play as luigi because he's my favorite character. Those scrubs should know how frustrating it is that luigi is easily outmaneuvered and a recovery that is easy to gimp. Also, NO ONE took the luigi mains skill in account which annoys me. What the Sm4sh community doesn't understand that playing a mediocre luigi pre patch would get you 2 stocked real quick. If the melee community can adapt to wobbling, then sm4sh can learn to not get grabbed by luigi and learn to exploit his weaknesses. Luigi can't camp as well either. Opponents could just perfect shield the fireballs

 

[Lichmassacre]

How can Luigi be a 'really good character' if he loses to fast characters, which are the definition of most top tiers?

Peach is floaty and slow as it is (and a little light) yet ZeRo still thinks she can be a top tier character.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Luigi mains have been doing this for a long time prepatch.

No it didn't. The only new combo is down throw down smash. THAT IT. Luigi doesn't have anything else new.

That's only true if you don't edgeguard. Luigi's recovery goes far but it's it's very slow and predictable. His recovery is almost as easy to slap away as little mac's.

1-Dude you really need to read everything before you respond. I also said
Not that it wasn't possible before but honestly it was mostly just look for a grab so you can DownB
Don't pick apart pieces use the whole thing.

2-Everyone else has already told you that you were wrong so I don't need to go there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUW46HGInO8 There are other vids some do different things others repeat but it goes to show that people are adapting and trying to be more creative now. Maybe as a mixup Luigi could go with forward throw to dash attack at 0% instead of the down throw not that it is super damage but still it may make your opponent hesitate.

3-You can say that about everyone's recovery so please stop this. You are not making a good case for yourself. Just one example top 5 character Rosalina doesn't have a hit box on her recovery. So if anybody just puts her offstage she should lose right? Hey everyone Rosalina is bottom tier confirmed because people can edgeguard her.

 

[TriTails]

Peach is floaty and slow as it is (and a little light) yet ZeRo still thinks she can be a top tier character.

Eh, she has potential. IDK on Peach's MUs tho. She may or may not lose hard to Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, or others. I recall she can be camped fairly well due to her mobility tho.

3-You can say that about everyone's recovery so please stop this. You are not making a good case for yourself. Just one example top 5 character Rosalina doesn't have a hit box on her recovery. So if anybody just puts her offstage she should lose right? Hey everyone Rosalina is bottom tier confirmed because people can edgeguard her.

While this may be an exaggeration, Rosalina using her Launch Star predictably basically means a stock for her as long as the edgeguarder is a good one (RIP Launch Star vs Ganon's F-air).

Although, her case isn't exactly comparable to Luigi's. Hers at least goes a little faster, can be angled, isn't 'counter bait', and she doesn't die when she loses her double jump.

However, Luigi's recovery isn't his main problem. Pre-patch, Luigi goes even or maybe even beats MK slightly even though going offstage can mean 100% death (B-air stage-spikes, lagless D-air, N-air in general). Would like Missile to go faster tho .

Not every character can camp.

To camp Luigi out, you don't exactly need uber mobility specs or ultra broken projectiles. If you just run away from Luigi, he can do little to chase you unless you're going at a speed that is slower than his dashing speed. Don't get me wrong, Luigi CAN get through camping. But it's a tedious and frustating job to do depending on the character. Ganon can't camp Luigi out for heck, but the likes of Greninja sure can.