Impa, the Enigmatic Sheikah, Sage of Shadow

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

The image of Impa or what looks to be like impa is definitely taking inspiration from SS impa (with added changes for HW of course). The color of her clothes, the neck collar, and of course the long braid of hair we can see there too. If their are other playable characters in that game, you can damn well bet they will be characters famous throughout the zelda series and impa is one of them for sure.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am just not expecting to see Sheik, cause apperantly, Zelda takes a passive role again. This means little chance for Tetra either. And in general, I think other variations of Zelda and Link aren't likely.

What seems to be Nayru has also been 'leaked' in the same image that zoomed in on Impa. So it goes without saying that it's likely she, Din and Faore are all playable to. Would be cool to fight with these Goddesses! Am also kind of hoping for Orca, the old man with the spear from Wind Waker who tought Link how to fight. That spear would be awesome.

Of course, Ganondorf should also be an unlockable character who's insanely powerful. Other villains, as Ghirahim, Vaati and Aghnahim could also appear. Midna to maybe? A Goron, Zora and Deku Scrub to of course cause of Majora's Mask. And how awesome would Skull Kid be? Am not seeing an increadible enourmous amount of playable characters though, as this is Zelda we're speaking of, and the main focus should be on Link...

 

[LaniusShrike]

Oh, Zelda will definitely be playable in Hyrule Warriors if Impa is. Being trapped behind a barrier in one scene doesn't mean she won't be summoning the Gods to destroy thousands of enemies in the next. In the Warriors series, you unlock characters throughout the campaigns. Yes, campaigns plural-- it's entirely possible and likely that you will be able to play the villain-side of the story in HW.

I don't know how much they're going to draw from characters outside of the Skyward Sword era... I wouldn't put it past them to shamelessly think of a story that allows for characters to be drawn from all eras.

I mean, Warriors Orochi 3 has Achilles, Joan of Arc, Orochi, the Monkey King, and Ryu from Ninja Gaiden all in the same place, so... yeah. They'll put in whoever they feel like, regardless of how much sense it makes.

The Warriors games aren't particularly good... but they are kinda great.

As far as other Warriors characters with a weapon like Impa's, I actually am surprised to realize I can't think of anybody. They tend to have either realistically sized one-handed swords or hilariously oversized anime two-handed blades. The logic of the games is kind of like "Why carry a pistol when I could carry a cannon?"
Also, the way she seems to hold her weapon over her shoulder is unusual for a Warriors character.

The closest that I can think of right now is Ranmaru Mori from Samurai Warriors who wields an extra-long katana.
http://youtu.be/j4tOlrWsahU?t=1m35s

Oh, but the way I think I'd rather see her designed is closer to Hanzo Hattori
http://youtu.be/dPJi1YZ2umA?t=1m30s

 

[Starcutter]

Impas the best. she will totally be in and I love that.

anyone else is insane.

Spoiler

(just joking I'm currently pretending to be diddy. she does have a chance but I don't support her. just pretending to be diddy.)

 

[Frostwraith]

That picture doesn't confirm Impa in any form. Sure, that character looks like Impa, but until there's proof that said character is Impa, it is unwise to claim him/her (even the gender is a bit ambiguous) as Impa.

I really hate it when people claim certainty over something when there's lack of irrefutable evidence to ensure said certainty. It really pisses me off.

Anyway, I could imagine Hyrule Warriors chronicling several tales based on several periods of the Zelda timelines and detailing some wars mentioned in backstory, such as the war between Hylia and Demise or the war that happens before Ocarina of Time (where Link is taken to Kokiri Forest and adopted by the Deku Tree). Impa could be one of the playable characters, alongside Link and possibly Zelda, Sheik, Darunia and many other characters. An interesting mode could be playing as Ganondorf or Ghirahim for villain-centered stories.

Anyway, I remind that even if Impa is playable in Hyrule Warriors, that doesn't necessarily mean she's playable in Smash. It will depend on whether or not Sakurai finds her unique and appealing, because that seems to be what Sakurai is looking for in possible newcomer characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In the last video, I saw Hanzo Hattori doing an attack that looks like Sheik's Down Aerial. Would indeed like that sort of fighting style, and being able to switch between that and her longsword.

Zelda being playable is also cool. Still, that doesn't mean that Sheik is also in it.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

That picture doesn't confirm Impa in any form. Sure, that character looks like Impa, but until there's proof that said character is Impa, it is unwise to claim him/her (even the gender is a bit ambiguous) as Impa.

I really hate it when people claim certainty over something when there's lack of irrefutable evidence to ensure said certainty. It really pisses me off.

Sure of course theres no definitive proof as of yet, but there are details that match up even with just a glance. But yeah its not a huge stretch by any means to assume that could be impa even with as little as we have to go on right now, not saying its her without a doubt since as you said theres no way to prove it until we see more.

---
The game will definitely feature more than just link, thats what dynasty warriors games are about, and more than that im wondering if many of the characters besides link will have spoken dialogue since thats always been a staple of the warriors series as well. Either way though her inclusion will probably not even have any impact on a possible smash bros role. If we get zelda's reveal this week and she remains TP, then that will be very telling of impa's fate, and im not too optimistic at this point with how sakurai has treated veterans so far (as in almost no change at all).

 

[Diddy Kong]

At this point, Impa and Sheik can pretty much co-excist. Rosalina being dubbed as 'Peach clone' before should really stop people worrying from this at all. There's still a possibility of replacement of course.

Really, if this warrior isn't Impa, but another Sheikah, who's to say Impa won't be in beside her? It wouldn't make sence if she wasn't.

Sorry Frost, fact is that Impa is most likely gonna be playable in this.

 

[Frostwraith]

Sorry Frost, fact is that Impa is most likely gonna be playable in this.

That's not a fact, but your opinion. Remember that.

Anyway, I think Impa and Tingle (and possibly Toon Zelda) are both tied as the likeliest Zelda characters, though personally, I think there won't be a Zelda newcomer at all.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Feel that Impa has an easy advantage over both.

First, Toon Zelda would most likely be a clone. Toon Link is more accepted because he's a clone from Link, the main character. And besides that, Toon Link has been playable himself and a smaller version of Link has been around since Melee.

Tingle has a hatebase and the Villager already has a Balloon Fighter-like Up B. Think this hurts Tingle quite more than people think.

 

[Curious Villager]

Eh I'm personally feeling the most likely Zelda newcomer (if we are getting any) would be Tetra with Toon Zelda but that's just my gut feeling...

 

[Diddy Kong]

My gut feeling for Impa was already there first time I saw her in Skyward Sword. It only became better when she actually got into action and proved herself to be worthy of inclusion on her own merrits. I first became interessted because she's a re-occuring character with a seemingly deeper role than before, which is new to Zelda. So I got a little impressed by her and felt I should watch her as the story progessed. It only became better! She's legitimately the first Zelda NPC ever who actually clears dungeons, and does so faster than Link! Good ****. I felt she easily had the factor that Sheik had before she got into Melee, and thus found her worthy to replace her with, especially as she's also a Sheikah. And her role being better, more influential, and deeper than Sheik's in the first place.

Funny how before, Ghirahim seemed to be our biggest enemy. However, where is he now? All his support died out, Impa's is still living. And it's not like Ghirahim had a few fans to begin with. No, not at all. This means that Impa's support is far more genuine, and she's got her long history in the Zelda series to thank for it.

Think she easily deserves it most out of all potential Zelda newcomers.

 

[SmashShadow]

I wonder if this means anything towards Sheiks chances? Time will tell.

I mean, Impa's main obstacle is Sheik being in the game.

 

[MagnesD3]

I wonder if this means anything towards Sheiks chances? Time will tell.

I mean, Impa's main obstacle is Sheik being in the game.

I think this is a huge boost to Impa's chances of making it, (but hurts jr./shadowmario's chances sadly..)

 

[Arcadenik]

So excited!!!! I hope the Phantom Knight from Spirit Tracks is Zelda's new Down+B so she no longer transforms into Sheik... and that Sheik is replaced with Impa... and that Toon Zelda isn't getting in because Zelda got the Phantom Knight when it was originally Toon Zelda's in Spirit Tracks! I'm excited for Diddy Kong!!

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wonder if this means anything towards Sheiks chances? Time will tell.

I mean, Impa's main obstacle is Sheik being in the game.

HOLYYYY DAMN! This indeed DOES HINT that no longer we'll be seeing a Down B from Zelda that transforms her in a shota!

Zelda is looking too pretty this time to dress up as a man anyway This knight can't protect her on her own!

Toon Zelda also looks heavy deconfrimed!

IMPA *******!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So we've got Zelda without Sheik and what is either Zelda summoning a a Phantom or an assist trophy. Well the Spirit track version of Toon Zelda is looking less likely. That's all I can get from this.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zelda will stay at 4 characters you think? Toon Zelda was Impa's biggest obstacle according to most. And you seriously think they won't replace Sheik's old moveset by creating Impa?

Sorry people, but I've been right all along, and most of you where dead wrong. It's not hard to admit, just swallow some pride. I won't rub it in as long as I get my due and people can admit at least they've been acting as major ******* to me.

 

[Sobreviviente]

Toon Zelda as a meat shield? xD i dont think so, toon and realistic character shouldnt cooperate like that, even if is just an empty armour (which it is, look at the eyes).
It probably is an AT.

 

[LaniusShrike]

:D Yusssssss. This update has me so, so psyched. For Impa's sake, definitely, but for Zelda's gameplay's sake too. ... also, I didn't really want "Toon Zelda" in. Little pirate Tetra, sure, she'd be fine, but no to the munchkin princess.

Augh. Awesomeness. And thank you, Sakurai, for putting in the picture of the Armos Knight summon. Perhaps not the move I woulda selected for her, but at least it heavvvvily hints at her down-B being switched out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If it is an AT, the Phantom woud be Phantom Zelda. This is an empty one, and clearly Zelda's Luma.

 

[Sobreviviente]

Sure, an empty armour as an AT is less likely than realistic TP zelda using toon attacks as a down B instead of realistic TP inspired sheik.
xD

 

[Diddy Kong]

Phantom Zelda is the only playable Zelda ever. It doesn't look remotely Toonish either.

Denial is everywhere

 

[Sobreviviente]

Thats it, i have no doubts you are joking xD

 

[Gallowglass]

I don't think its an AT (though possible if Sakurai is trolling). Link's and Toon Link's moves are interchangeable so why wouldn't Zelda's? That's like saying Mario can't have his cape attack because its a 2D move and his FLUDD attack because that's a 3D move.

I wonder if the move will be like a remote player. So Zelda summons it and is immobile but the player controls the (armoros or darknut?). It kinda like a more complex Snake's forward special.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think it'll have it's own AI, that's why Zelda was there doing that taunt / grab animation.

It also makes no sence to both have the Phantom Knight and Transform into her moveset.

That 'Transform animation' everyone is talking about is actually just Din's Fire

It lacks the light glow and other animations to match Transform. Or if nothing else, it could be a nod to Sheik.

That Phantom is specifically designed to match Zelda's color pattern. It's not possesed by Toon Zelda either, so it's not an AT.

People say I'm gasping at straws, or lack proof, but they lack one thing themselves: common sence

It's likely they figured Zelda needed something to make her standout herself. And Sheik probably wasn't worth it to add again. Which is exactly what I've been telling people all this time.

It's highly likely Impa is gonna be the next newcomer in line to confirm Sheik's absence. Don't assume any coment from Sakurai either. As he never said anything specifically about the cut characters from Brawl either. No update saying: 'Cut character: Dr.Mario' or any **** like that. This is gonna mean Sheik fans are gonna be far more irritating, and will likely stay in denial till the game releases but ah well...

The hotter the battle, the sweeter the victory

 

[Arcadenik]

Preach it, Diddy!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just to let you all know, I've arranged support from the Bandana Dee fans by noting our alikeness. In a way, we are kind of in the same position. Let me quite a post I made over there.

Awesome!

See, we serve a common interesst! Both our character's serve a royality ( & ) who is already included, yet might find opposition because of both of these characters have a Special Move that seems to work against our interesst (

& ). How can the two of our fanbase work togheter to make others see the light that our character is CLEARLY superiour to these two 'side characters'?

Cause it's common sence that our Bandana Dee (with Spear abilities) is clearly a better choice than any other Kirby character, despite what many say. Enemies are: Adeline (old 'fan favorite') & Galatica Knight (new, recent but cloney).
And Impa in return is better than Sheik, a one-off, due to more appearances, despite what many say. Enemies are: Vaati (old 'fan favorite') & Toon Zelda (new, recent but cloney).

We got our passion and loyalty already! Only thing that's bothering us are the stubborn masses!

Let's unite the great leaders or Hyrule and Dreamland and make the most famous (common) soldiers of their lands fight for fame and justice!

Link and Kirby, beware! Soon, these 2 will challenge you two's competence in who's the better fighter out of Hyrule & Dreamland!

Lets keep an eye out for our brothers with the same struggle! Common soldiers will soon take their rightful place amongst the legends, and have all rights to!

 

[Inawordyes]

I'm all for Impa, and I think she deserves to take over for Sheik. But I'm also secretly hoping that Sheik gets confirmed again just to see Diddy implode from the sheer illogicality of it. Then I'd be "meh", and hope Impa still gets in despite Sheik.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm all for Impa, and I think she deserves to take over for Sheik. But I'm also secretly hoping that Sheik gets confirmed again just to see Diddy implode from the sheer illogicality of it. Then I'd be "meh", and hope Impa still gets in despite Sheik.

Impa still has a shot even if Sheik returns though. She just becomes all the more likely if Sheik is being deconfirmed before however.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Hey sup thread, I support Impa, add me to the list. I'm also gonna read over the moveset + other things when i have the time.

I have to admit she does look cooler than sheik.

 

[HeroG]

You know Rosalina helps Impa a lot as well. Impa in SS is just as important (if not more) than Rosalina in her games. I support her I just hope she becomes more than ONLY a shiek replacement. She could use a barrier for a down B or Something. If she is just a shiek reskin does that count as a newcomer? Does Toon Link count as a newcomer in brawl?

 

[Big Rig Randy]

You know Rosalina helps Impa a lot as well. Impa in SS is just as important (if not more) than Rosalina in her games. I support her I just hope she becomes more than ONLY a shiek replacement. She could use a barrier for a down B or Something. If she is just a shiek reskin does that count as a newcomer? Does Toon Link count as a newcomer in brawl?

Rosalina being in has no effect on freaking Impa, come on now, this isn't some Butterfly Effect ripple nonsense

 

[LoneKonWolf]

Just to let you all know, I've arranged support from the Bandana Dee fans by noting our alikeness. In a way, we are kind of in the same position. Let me quite a post I made over there.


Lets keep an eye out for our brothers with the same struggle! Common soldiers will soon take their rightful place amongst the legends, and have all rights to!

as the third ranked member of the bandana brigade, I can confirm this to be true, let us rejoice in this partner ship that have

anyway I guess its time to state my opinion and matter upon impa,
personally, I am neutral upon her inclusion, I couldn't care less if she got in or not, I am also the same with sheik, and the reason I bring her up is because she is her biggest downfall, mainly because one sheikian will usually disclose another, and its not likely that sakurai will get rid of sheik so impa can replace her, it will just be a waste of resources, but luckily thanks to Rosalina's reveal can show that there may be a more likely 5th (not counting sheik mind you) Zelda slot on the roster, and seeing how impa has importance in two major games (ocarina of time, skyward sword) makes her a likely contender, and before I hear someone say that there can't be two sheikian's co-existing with one another, let me remind you that we now have two Mario princesses, two plumbers, we had two Marios, we had two Pikachus (pichu is technically a smaller Pikachu) and we also currently have two links, two ninja like women won't make that much of an difference, impa's main holdup is actually competition, she has to deal with vaati (second villain by number of appearances) tingle (widely accepted main side character) and tetra (second main toon character) another point to look at in favor of impa is that she has an obvious moveset pool, which for the other characters is not so obvious (think of one for tingle in 5 minutes) but will it deem her unique enough for sakurai, or will he look at her like another sheik, it all honestly comes up as an hit and miss for impa, what I can say is that she at least has an chance, not the best (no Zelda character actually has a good chance mind you) but she has one

you actually used that picture I made, glad to see it comes in good use

 

[Pacack]

I've never been vocal about it mainly because everyone hates Impa, but it makes a lot of sense that Impa could replace Sheik. This is especially true when you think about this (I'm pretty sure that neither of these points have been brought up yet):

A: Sakurai specifically mentioned that he chose Sheik because he wanted to make a ninja character. He was not looking at the credentials of the character Sheik. As such, Sakurai has no attachment to the character itself (only the moveset) and he may choose to replace Sheik entirely and replace her with a more recurring and relevant character.

B: I know that everyone will hate me for saying this, but I do think Sakurai is adding more women on purpose, and the prime candidates are Palutena and Impa. We already have Rosalina, Wii Fit Trainer, and most likely Villager (alternate costume), so it's not too much of a stretch after his comment about Zelda.


With the Phantom Zelda image, I now see Impa's introduction into the series as more likely than Sheik's staying. Consider me a supporter.

 

[Eagle]

I don't think its an AT (though possible if Sakurai is trolling). Link's and Toon Link's moves are interchangeable so why wouldn't Zelda's? That's like saying Mario can't have his cape attack because its a 2D move and his FLUDD attack because that's a 3D move.

I wonder if the move will be like a remote player. So Zelda summons it and is immobile but the player controls the (armoros or darknut?). It kinda like a more complex Snake's forward special.

How are Link's and Toon Link's moves interchangeable? Toon Link only uses items and moves that he uses and Wind Waker and onwards.

It would be weird if Zelda uses Spirit Track armor. It's an AT.

 

[Gallowglass]

Lets see both throw boomerangs, shoot arrows, use hookshots, throw bombs, spin attacks, etc. Just because the artwork is different doesn't mean its not the same item.

You know what's weird? Zelda using Din's fire, Farore's wind, and Nayru's love which are moves only Link has ever used.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I've never been vocal about it mainly because everyone hates Impa, but it makes a lot of sense that Impa could replace Sheik. This is especially true when you think about this (I'm pretty sure that neither of these points have been brought up yet):

A: Sakurai specifically mentioned that he chose Sheik because he wanted to make a ninja character. He was not looking at the credentials of the character Sheik. As such, Sakurai has no attachment to the character itself (only the moveset) and he may choose to replace Sheik entirely and replace her with a more recurring and relevant character.

B: I know that everyone will hate me for saying this, but I do think Sakurai is adding more women on purpose, and the prime candidates are Palutena and Impa. We already have Rosalina, Wii Fit Trainer, and most likely Villager (alternate costume), so it's not too much of a stretch after his comment about Zelda.


With the Phantom Zelda image, I now see Impa's introduction into the series as more likely than Sheik's staying. Consider me a supporter.

Did Sakurai specifically said that about Sheik!? I never knew this! Where did you read that up? I always suspected it, mind you but to have an actual confirmation is even better! In that way, it makes Impa even more likely cause Sakurai probably never intended his 'ninja character' to be completely dependant on his 'mage character'. Again, I love to believe this but I'd like to see where it comes from cause if I use this arguement, people are gonna ask me for source myself.

I love seeing this many new supporters show up though!

How are Link's and Toon Link's moves interchangeable? Toon Link only uses items and moves that he uses and Wind Waker and onwards.

It would be weird if Zelda uses Spirit Track armor. It's an AT.

It would be more weird if Zelda changes herself to her ancestor by using Down B. The Phantom is a summoning attack. It makes sence Zelda could do this, as she's a princess with high magic abilities. She needs protection anyway.

And if it indeed was an AT, it would have the pink eyes. Nobody has solid proof it is an AT. Zelda does no other attacks on her page! While the rest does. And aside from Luigi, all are showing their special moves. At least two of them to! Zelda? Shows none. This suggests to me that there will be plenty of changes in Zelda.

 

[Frostwraith]

All this talk about the Phantom and Zelda and Impa and Sheik and whatever else is just going in circles...

Anyway:
- We don't know what is the Phantom's role. The image is very ambiguous.
- If the Phantom is, indeed, a new move for Zelda, it does not invalidate Sheik's inclusion nor warrants Impa being included.
- Impa and Sheik are not mutually exclusive: Sheik can still be part of Zelda's moveset, while Impa joins as a new fighter.
- Sheik being cut won't make Zelda inherently better. It is possible to balance the two characters so that they work properly as a stance fighter. Fixing the transformation time would be a good first step.
- Impa replacing Sheik and inheriting her moveset for the sake of recency or relevancy doesn't seem like something Sakurai would do, especially not when Sheik is more popular and more well-known among the Smash fanbase. Furthermore, Sakurai is aware that characters have their fans and wants to avoid cutting them.

I'm not against Impa's inclusion and never was. I just hate it when people jump to absurd conclusions when we know ****ing nothing. Stating that the Phantom leads to Sheik's removal and a consequent Impa addition is simply absurd, especially when we don't know if the Phantom is actually part of Zelda's moveset.

It is just amazing how some people are desperate to be right and make absurd conclusions by twisting ambiguous information to their favor. It is really insulting.

 

[Diddy Kong]

All this talk about the Phantom and Zelda and Impa and Sheik and whatever else is just going in circles...

Anyway:
- We don't know what is the Phantom's role. The image is very ambiguous.
- If the Phantom is, indeed, a new move for Zelda, it does not invalidate Sheik's inclusion nor warrants Impa being included.
- Impa and Sheik are not mutually exclusive: Sheik can still be part of Zelda's moveset, while Impa joins as a new fighter.
- Sheik being cut won't make Zelda inherently better. It is possible to balance the two characters so that they work properly as a stance fighter. Fixing the transformation time would be a good first step.
- Impa replacing Sheik and inheriting her moveset for the sake of recency or relevancy doesn't seem like something Sakurai would do, especially not when Sheik is more popular and more well-known among the Smash fanbase. Furthermore, Sakurai is aware that characters have their fans and wants to avoid cutting them.

I'm not against Impa's inclusion and never was. I just hate it when people jump to absurd conclusions when we know ****ing nothing. Stating that the Phantom leads to Sheik's removal and a consequent Impa addition is simply absurd, especially when we don't know if the Phantom is actually part of Zelda's moveset.

It is just amazing how some people are desperate to be right and make absurd conclusions by twisting ambiguous information to their favor. It is really insulting.

All this stems from your last comment. Do you really think there will be no cuts? The man even apologized in advance for cuts he'll make. It's good wordplay, that's for sure but no way it confirms absence of cuts in anyway.

Phantom is likely an attack for Zelda, and let me explain why again:

-All characters revealed so far show off a couple of special moves. Most of the time 2, but some 3. No character has yet revealed all moves yet. Take DK and Link for example, all their moves aside from their Side B have been revealed. Could hint that their Side B's have been tweaked or replaced or something else.
-If the Phantom wouldn't be an attack, but an Assist Trophy, it would most likely have the pink eyes. Whereas not here. It looks like Zelda herself has spawned it and could control it with 'magic' (aka similary to how Rosalina controls her Lumas).
-Speaking of Rosalina and her Lumas : Rosalina & Luma. Zelda's reveal came right after hers, and just perhaps Sakurai wants to make better use of the Wii U's control pad by making more characters rely on it for their moves? Means that Pokémon Trainer also could have a gimmick like this, or that Diddy & Dixie become playable in a tagteam similary working like this. Or Ice Climbers, with Nana actually being player controled this time.
-Phantom Zelda was the only playable Zelda ever. And don't ****ing start with the CDi please...

Impa and Sheik could co-excist. However, if Sheik is gone, Impa becomes all the more likely. Also earlier in this thread, Pacack stated that Sakurai doesn't care about Sheik at all he just cares about her moveset as he wanted a ninja character. This makes a separate ninja character much more interessting for him most likely. And this cannot be acchieved with Sheik, but it can with Impa.

Zelda & Sheik working as a stance character is hilarious. This is no Marvel vs Capcom. And personally, I really don't want to see it cause it would look awkward switching so quickly between Zelda and Sheik.

It's also highly unlikely that any of the Goddess Spells would be removed just to make place for Transform. It's one of the most arrogant claims I've heard. Din, Nayru and Faore formed the Triforce. Zelda has moves representing that. It makes far more sence that the Hyrule Royal Family has passed down these spells each generatation for Zelda to use than Zelda suddenly being able to Sheikah. There are no Sheikah in Twilight Princess. Sheik logically cannot excist. And again, this Phantom will likely NOT be a Side B or Neutral B.

Sakurai has already replaced Young Link with Toon Link before. What again is the problem with keeping characters up to date?