"I'm an earthquake in a can!" - Bowser video thread

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
2,328
Location
Calgary, Alberta
Howdy all

My friend is a Bowser player in the MD/VA region, and I recently recorded one of his sets at a weekly vs Chill in. He is against getting a s!ashboards account so I'm posting it and asking for advice for him. If you have any advice/critique, I'll pass it on to him! Thanks!

Here is the set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFdYDrHIaaE
If he won't expend the 2 minutes of effort to ask for help himself, there's no point in anybody wasting their time in a meaningful critique.

Regardless, it looks like he has no gameplan - he's just going with the Standard Newbie Strategy of "when the other guy comes close, throw a move out and hope I hit him". He's going to need to start thinking about

1. what the opponent's plan is
2. what the best counter is

on his own before anyone could even begin to help him.
 

Candypants

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
50
Howdy all

My friend is a Bowser player in the MD/VA region, and I recently recorded one of his sets at a weekly vs Chill in. He is against getting a s!ashboards account so I'm posting it and asking for advice for him. If you have any advice/critique, I'll pass it on to him! Thanks!

Here is the set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFdYDrHIaaE
-his game is based fully on reads, needs more reaction.
-needs to learn to tech/L-cancel.
-general improvement on bowser movement needed.
 

Sneez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
105
yo odds i like your bowser, what do you think about the marth matchup? seems good for bowser, esp since it seems like if you get a command grab at like 80 you get a free upair kill
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
2,328
Location
Calgary, Alberta
The side b grab on marth only leads to an upair if he fails to DI away from you. My mind has changed about the Bowser-Marth MU probably more than about any other. Both characters have a lot going for them in the MU. Bowser probably wins at most levels of play, though I still think Marth is slightly favored at high/top level.
 

Sneez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
105
i see, though i feel like there aren't any bowsers that are on the same level as top melee marths. do you think as time goes on and top bowsers get better it might get better for bowser in the mu at top levels? or is it that his skill ceiling might just not be as high as marths?
 

OnFullTilt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
188
Location
MA
NNID
Gregolus
i see, though i feel like there aren't any bowsers that are on the same level as top melee marths. do you think as time goes on and top bowsers get better it might get better for bowser in the mu at top levels? or is it that his skill ceiling might just not be as high as marths?
We should probably take this to the discussion thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-general-discussion-thread.331758/), as we are not posting or talking about videos right now. I'd suggest reposting there. I'd try answering your question though I'm not the most qualified. I can say that Marth is already quite developed whereas Bowser has a lot of room to grow.
 
Last edited:

WhinoTheRhino

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
154
Location
Vancouver, Canada
I'm curious what you think of the Bowser/Ganon MU after playing Headcrab. It seemed like he was dead every time you got him offstage, but obviously he didn't know the MU and wasn't even chaingrabbing.

btw, is that a pic of bladewise? LOL
 

REInstalleD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
21
Location
Palo Alto, California
Haha! Whino, check his Bladewise set at 8:31

Odds, great sets! I love watching your Bowser. I just lost in tournament today to an IC main. I noticed the same thing seemed to happen in both our sets; I tried to space land-canceled fire at him to avoid getting chain grabbed to death but when he picked up on it and started rolling he just got more free grabs. Do you think the match-up is bad enough that pulling out a secondary is necessary or have you figured out a counter Climbers strategy with Bowser...which I guess only means how to not get grabbed.
 

Osmosis124

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
53
Location
Weston, Florida.

Zigludo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
206
Location
Southwest Florida (Naples)
my advice is that you come to VS this week so I can moneymatch you again ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

your punishes against Res were looking pretty suboptimal though. I noticed lots of cases where you landed a koopa klaw around 55-70% or whatever and he had bad DI setting him up for free fullhop uair followup (which is gonna kill Sheik) and you often used downB superjump and like, naired or baired or went for the uair but whiffed due to jumping too high. just get a feel for which followups work on which percentages in which matchups (sh nair/uair/fair, fullhop uair/fair, downB bair/uair). in my experience you only ever need to use the downB to get the combo on the floatiest characters, like Zelda, or else semi-floaties at very, VERY high%... that might be totally untrue, though. my opponents have bad DI

also you probably already know but when you're edgeguarding Sheik, just stick to the formula. grab ledge 95% of the time. if she can't make it onto a platform (FD, Smashville 50% of the time, often on Dreamland and PS2) that number goes from 95% to 100%. you have the ledgehop sideB down, you just need to set it up more consistently. also, for this MU, stop bairing the ledge (at 9:50) that's never gonna work against Sheik lol. don't do it
 
Last edited:

REInstalleD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
21
Location
Palo Alto, California
What? A new post in the Bowser video thread? Impossible!

I'm a scrubby bowser but am trying to get better so I wanted to post about things I really liked about your gameplay and ask some questions.

Set vs ChuDat

First off, congrats on beating ice climbers. God I hate that matchup. Some things I thought you did really well:
Movement: like your platform usage on Delfino, or your full hop nair waveland forward up smash on green hill, or on dreamland where you walk by him then short hop back, like you're faking a bair, but then waveland backward into a kk backthrow.
Position: You seem to close space without actually approaching or leaving yourself vulnerable. I'm not sure if this is a conscious thing you do or just your game sense, but you get close enough to him where you pose a threat and he feels like he should throw something out (which you punish with fair or up-b or something), but you don't actually fully commit to anything yourself. It's pretty cool.
Getting up from ledge: You mix this up a lot. Aside from the obvious mix ups (like get up attack vs fire or whatever) I liked your ledge hop insta-wave land mix ups. Sometimes you do it into a down smash, sometimes a wavedash side-b, I think once you did it into wavedash shorthop back dair. Nice stuff.

Some questions:
Stage selection: You thought a lot about that first stage, delfino vs smashville. I'm guessing it was a choice between more platforms vs less stage/smaller blastzones. You lost but it was pretty close, so do you think you made the right choice? In general, how do you make these decisions, platforms vs size, in different matchups?
Down B: You did this on stage once or twice. I've seen other bowers go for it with limited success. I suppose it catches greedy players trying to chase you in the air for follow ups, but is it ever really a good option? What kind of mind games or reads go into trying to surprise someone with it?
Insta-snap platform thing: Or whatever people are calling it. I saw you do it on dreamland; was it on purpose? I have that tech down for full height FoD plats but haven't practiced other stages/heights. Is it worth practicing?
Getting grabbed: I know for a fact that I would have gotten grabbed ten times as often as you did. What do you think the biggest key is to avoiding this?

This post already seems long enough, I'll watch your other set later. Thanks so much for posting vids! I feel like I learn a lot from watching good Bowsers, even if I have difficulty incorporating what I learn into my own gameplay.

PS: Three Bowsers in top 64? I guess it's only 1.44 more Bowsers than the expected average, but then again, its Bowser, so still pretty hype.
 

Chaos_Blasta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
288
Location
Mexico
What? A new post in the Bowser video thread? Impossible!
Some questions:
Stage selection: You thought a lot about that first stage, delfino vs smashville. I'm guessing it was a choice between more platforms vs less stage/smaller blastzones. You lost but it was pretty close, so do you think you made the right choice? In general, how do you make these decisions, platforms vs size, in different matchups?
Down B: You did this on stage once or twice. I've seen other bowers go for it with limited success. I suppose it catches greedy players trying to chase you in the air for follow ups, but is it ever really a good option? What kind of mind games or reads go into trying to surprise someone with it?
Insta-snap platform thing: Or whatever people are calling it. I saw you do it on dreamland; was it on purpose? I have that tech down for full height FoD plats but haven't practiced other stages/heights. Is it worth practicing?
Getting grabbed: I know for a fact that I would have gotten grabbed ten times as often as you did. What do you think the biggest key is to avoiding this?
Smashville is sort of a flat stage, not on the likes of PS2 or FD but if you don't have the platform on your side you're going to be at a serious disadvantage in the match, particularly vs ICs where they can just CG you so hard. Delfino's has a way more variable platform spread that allows you to approach and recover in many different ways which is why I ended going for it.

Small stages are almost always preferred, and the better the platforms on them are located, the better they are for Bowser cause you just have so much mobility from wavelands. However, there are some MUs in where larger stages are best, as you can stay alive for much longer while stlil being able to kill your opponents early via edgeguarding (Spacies, for example). Overall I choose a stage based on how comfortably I'll be able to play neutral on it.

The Down B attempts were dumb to say the atleast and I wouldn't recommend people getting too frisky with them unless they're positive they've got the read-- You can try to mix it up by doing the move as close to your opponent as possible, cause there's a chance that they'll try to attack and leave themselves open (And Down B stops your vertical momentum which helps a lot in that case)

The snap on platforms was accidental to be honest, lol. I don't actually have it practiced. However, I think it's great if you have it down even if for a stage or two cause that opens up possibilities that you would otherwise have to cover by wavelanding into the platform, which is much laggier. For example, jumping into platform > Usmash.

I played Chu Dat in Winners side and he went ICs game 2, and I was getting grabbed pretty much every time I tried poking at his shield. Their wavedash is huge and any sort of mistake in the neutral could easily lead to a stock. This is why I tried to play way more conservative on this set, trying to mostly play neutral by wavelanding out of their effective range and wait for a more commital approach, using fire breath more often or try to get him to shield so that I could Klaw him, although the latter wasn't so effective as you can just sidestep as Bowser goes for the move (You can see me miss quite a few of those on the vids actually) overall it was about only throwing out moves when I felt they couldn't get punished and Up-Bing out of danger :p

Thanks for the analysis by the way!
 

Raiden mk-II

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
200
Location
UC San Diego
3DS FC
4313-2377-1601

REInstalleD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
21
Location
Palo Alto, California
Hi Raiden, sick blue bowser skin! Here are just a couple of my thoughts on the game you posted. I am by no means an expert player, but maybe you'll find them useful.

Crouch canceling: You use this to great effect to move through razor leaf and stuff his approaches. I would be careful about relying on it too much as your opponent may adapt and start grabbing more or baiting out the d-tilt and punishing. But in this match it worked very well!

Edge guarding: Don't F-smash at the edge, especially vs tether characters but also just in general. It's almost never a good edge guarding option unless you have the hard read and are looking for a quick kill or some disrespect. One time you had a cool reverse kk ledge grab but you got up too early. Just hold on until the tether character is forced to recover and punish accordingly (like ledge hop waveland d-smash).

Rolling: It's not as scrubby as everyone makes it seem, sometimes it's a good option. That being said, when getting pressured, up-b OoS is often a better option, especially with a ledge in reach. It also seems like you're using it not just to avoid pressure but also as a safe way to traverse the stage. The problem is that, while rolling away may be safe, it doesn't leave you with any options to punish; it's like you're constantly resetting to neutral (obviously not one of bowser's strengths). Try mixing in more wavedashes and wavelands to have movement that is safe, precise, and can be quickly acted out of to punish your opponent when they misstep. For instance, on PS2 I like wavelanding off the platforms and mixing up fair and fire to catch my opponent off guard. (Chaos_Blasta has some sick Bowser movement if you scroll up a couple posts to his Paragon vids).

Jab and D-tilt 2: Remember that you don't always have to input the second jab or d-tilt. If the first one doesn't connect, it's unlikely the second one will unless they run into it. And even if the first one does hit, sometimes there are better follow up options. For instance, after hitting jab 1 you can follow up with cc jab 1, d-tilt, or grab (depending on percent, weight, DI, etc.). Just something to keep in mind.

Aerials: You play a surprisingly grounded bowser. Honestly I can't think of a single use of fair, or nair for that matter, or bair...or dair...dang. Okay, I just skimmed through the match again and still didn't see a single aerial except for two or three up-airs. I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily; it's just an observation. It worked pretty well for you this game by making you much less susceptible to razor leaf which he relies on a lot. Yeah, I don't know, just something to think about I guess. I definitely respect your commitment to your strategy.

Thanks for posting! Hopefully that was helpful.

PS: If you get a chance, get some games in with Big E (an Ike player and friend of mine who also just transferred to UCSD). He's played my bowser a lot and will teach you a thing or two about the matchup (and then switch to sheik or metaknight if you start having too much fun, haha).
 
Last edited:

Raiden mk-II

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
200
Location
UC San Diego
3DS FC
4313-2377-1601
Hi Raiden, sick blue bowser skin!
Aerials: You play a surprisingly grounded bowser. Honestly I can't think of a single use of fair, or nair for that matter, or bair...or dair...dang. Okay, I just skimmed through the match again and still didn't see a single aerial except for two or three up-airs. I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily; it's just an observation. It worked pretty well for you this game by making you much less susceptible to razor leaf which he relies on a lot. Yeah, I don't know, just something to think about I guess. I definitely respect your commitment to your strategy.

Thanks for posting! Hopefully that was helpful.

PS: If you get a chance, get some games in with Big E (an Ike player and friend of mine who also just transferred to UCSD). He's played my bowser a lot and will teach you a thing or two about the matchup (and then switch to sheik or metaknight if you start having too much fun, haha).
Yesh, I stay grounded against this Ivy because of his spaciness and neutrals. More often than not, in other matches I do use aerials, mostly Forward Air and BackAir. I need to start using Neutral Air a lot more as part of my neutral game, which many people made me realize I severely lacked.

I also know that against better players, my little strategy of crouch cancelling will not work and can be easily punished. It's just that this Ivy relied too much on Razor leaf, and my first time playing against him, he gave me a lot of trouble since I did not know the Ivysaur matchup all too well, if at all. This matchup I had a better feel for his approaches and used crouching for the light armor.

As for my edgeguarding, I did not know in this match that hard-read F-Smashes are not too good to use against tether recovering characters. My timings for my hard reads were way off. Against other characters, I have better success with the hard-read Fsmashes. However, people have made the point that I cannot use just F-smash for edgeguarding, and I will work on better ways to edgeguard like Fortress hogging and maybe even Down B edgegrabs.

Another problem I am working to address is my habitual use of Down B in the air when I am above opponents. I do those out of habit and I do not know how I came to use a super laggy move with such carelessness, but this will be something I will work on.

I watched several matches that Odds' Bowser had against other characters, and I now have more insight as to how I can improve my play.

Also, I hope to meet your friend here at UCSD, so we can possibly play against each other. UCSD's gaming community, Triton Gaming, does not have an official PM division, but perhaps I can start one or get one started by someone else.
 

Joak.

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 17, 2015
Messages
9
Location
Northern VA
You should only use dash attack to armor through a move he is already using or very predictably using. Use wavelands into f-tilt or jab some in neutral. Great use of fire, maybe don't use it quite as much. Use his u-air to kill at least some times.
 
Top