If you had to remove one character

Ahm Skittish!

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#81
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/05/31/things-you-may-not-know-about-jigglypuff/

Probably worth pointing out now; Jigglypuff is an actual Joke Character. It didn't work out as planned(as the character was way better than intended). Pichu is the Joke Character of Melee.

There's been zero articles or official statements to suggest any other ones exist. PP wasn't even a Joke Character(who are intentionally weak in the game. PP is actually a pretty decent character as is), but specifically fell under the category of a Surprise Character Like Wii Fit Trainer is.

Basically, Joke Character actually is used in a specific manner by Sakurai, so it does have an actual definition for Smash. The character must be intentionally weak. Only two characters, as noted above, actually fit that mold. We could see more in the future, and it is a coincidence they were both Pokemon to begin with.
 

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#82
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/05/31/things-you-may-not-know-about-jigglypuff/

Probably worth pointing out now; Jigglypuff is an actual Joke Character. It didn't work out as planned(as the character was way better than intended). Pichu is the Joke Character of Melee.

There's been zero articles or official statements to suggest any other ones exist. PP wasn't even a Joke Character(who are intentionally weak in the game. PP is actually a pretty decent character as is), but specifically fell under the category of a Surprise Character Like Wii Fit Trainer is.

Basically, Joke Character actually is used in a specific manner by Sakurai, so it does have an actual definition for Smash. The character must be intentionally weak. Only two characters, as noted above, actually fit that mold. We could see more in the future, and it is a coincidence they were both Pokemon to begin with.
That's a definition commonly used in fighting games on the whole, the Dan Hibiki definition. Another one is in popular use, and is the one being used when people refer to Piranha Plant. This definition entails a character whose addition was based in, or influenced by, a desire to mess with fans. You know, play a joke on them. "Ho, ho, no one will be expecting the Wii Fit Trainer to appear in Smash! Won't their reactions be something?"

You can argue "that's not the correct definition" all you like. It won't stop people from using it, and in a decade or two there'll probably be a new definition or use for it. 'Tis the nature of language.
 
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Ahm Skittish!

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#83
That's a definition commonly used in fighting games on the whole, the Dan Hibiki definition. Another one is in popular use, and is the one being used when people refer to Piranha Plant. This definition entails a character whose addition was based in, or influenced by, a desire to mess with fans. You know, play a joke on them. "Ho, ho, no one will be expecting the Wii Fit Trainer to appear in Smash! Won't their reactions be something?"

You can argue "that's not the correct definition" all you like. It won't stop people from using it, and in a decade or two there'll probably be a new definition or use for it. 'Tis the nature of language.
It's actually the wrong definition because Sakurai has never added a single character to "mess with people" in the way you're speaking of. That doesn't exist in Smash(and good chance it never will). WFT? Was added because nobody expected it. A fun character to subvert expectations. Not to troll people like you're suggesting. Completely different situations to begin with.

PP was added to have a non-protagonist and because it's iconic. The non-protagonist part is to show that you don't need to be a protagonist or major character to get in. Just being recurring is enough alone. Really, PP had something some others didn't, consistently relevancy and tons of unique abilities specific to the species. It sucks other cool characters didn't get in, but they didn't fit the main criteria either. Which is unfortunate, cause him using relevancy is pretty annoying as a criteria. Like, literally every newcomer in Ultimate(so far, we still have two more DLC at least to go) have been relevant in some way, or at least their series was. It seems like that's the big point for this specific game. We didn't even have a Retro character.
 

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#84
It's actually the wrong definition because Sakurai has never added a single character to "mess with people" in the way you're speaking of. That doesn't exist in Smash(and good chance it never will). WFT? Was added because nobody expected it. A fun character to subvert expectations. Not to troll people like you're suggesting.
You just said the same thing twice. The devs having fun at subverting expectations is lightheartedly trolling people.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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#86
You just said the same thing twice. The devs having fun at subverting expectations is lightheartedly trolling people.
That's not lighthearted trolling with Smash.

They aren't "having fun at subverting people's expectations". What they are doing is having fun making cool characters with love and care to give tons of fanbases a fun game to play. Which is actually the core reason Sakurai wants to add characters. For the fanbases. Being a character nobody asked for doesn't change this. It just means it gets players who find these types of things interesting. So no, I don't see what you're talking about. I see it as a gross misinterpretation of how he develops Smash.

Surprise Characters, unsurprisingly, are not hated by all. In fact, most of them are extremely popular(and so is PP). Even Corrin is still immensely popular, and he's one of the most hated additions in Smash. Adding different characters than people with standards that are different from Sakurai's has never constituted actual trolling(not even lighthearted). It also doesn't help that you're making a massive accusation against the developer. So of course I see a problem with you deflaming Sakurai's character. And I'm going to call it as it is; 100% wrong. His articles are extremely clear that he doesn't take these kind of things lightly and cares too much about the players to pull those kind of stunts. It doesn't fit him at all. It doesn't make any remote sense. He doesn't have the malicious intent to do so. In fact, what's more of a reality is that he isn't a businessman but someone who wants to make his games enjoy for a ton of players. He's just well aware not everybody will enjoy it.

Another basic way to put it is that treating it like it's meant to be a jab at the playerbases is completely unfounded and requires assuming bad faith on Sakurai's part. That's honestly not very fair(nor reasonable) to do so. My suggestion? Let it go and just realize he was doing it to give another fun and unique character for the playerbase to enjoy. Which is actually accurate to how he works.
 

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#87
It's actually the wrong definition because Sakurai has never added a single character to "mess with people" in the way you're speaking of. That doesn't exist in Smash(and good chance it never will). WFT? Was added because nobody expected it. A fun character to subvert expectations. Not to troll people like you're suggesting. Completely different situations to begin with.

PP was added to have a non-protagonist and because it's iconic. The non-protagonist part is to show that you don't need to be a protagonist or major character to get in. Just being recurring is enough alone. Really, PP had something some others didn't, consistently relevancy and tons of unique abilities specific to the species. It sucks other cool characters didn't get in, but they didn't fit the main criteria either. Which is unfortunate, cause him using relevancy is pretty annoying as a criteria. Like, literally every newcomer in Ultimate(so far, we still have two more DLC at least to go) have been relevant in some way, or at least their series was. It seems like that's the big point for this specific game. We didn't even have a Retro character.
I have this thing in the back of my mind that he really didn't want to put Banjo and K. Rool in but he had to, so he made the trailers as trollish as possible: "Let me kick you guys one more time while you're down"; yeah, maybe I'm being overly-dramatic, but do that to a character who's a given like Isabelle or Inkling, not a character such as K. Rool who has been inexplicably missing for over a decade and the fans had to cry for him to be in the game.

I honestly think Piranha Plant was added because he can't surprise people anymore; either that, or someone's pet project somehow became playable.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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#88
I have this thing in the back of my mind that he really didn't want to put Banjo and K. Rool in but he had to, so he made the trailers as trollish as possible: "Let me kick you guys one more time while you're down"; yeah, maybe I'm being overly-dramatic, but do that to a character who's a given like Isabelle or Inkling, not a character such as K. Rool who has been inexplicably missing for over a decade and the fans had to cry for him to be in the game.

I honestly think Piranha Plant was added because he can't surprise people anymore; either that, or someone's pet project somehow became playable.
Eh, I doubt it. There's nothing to suggest he dislikes the idea of the characters getting in. He actually enjoys making the game for players, though. He didn't "have" to put in anyone to begin with. None of this is forced. In fact, all the articles point to that he makes the final decision on the roster every time. He's only gotten advice. Nintendo helped with the Fighter's Pass doesn't even contradict that factor either.

The trailers look like just being fun to help surprise players and get them hyped up. Which it did immensely. I never got the impression he outright dislikes putting anyone in that he already agreed to. Slightly hesitant(like with Corrin). The trailers having a character that intentionally is trolling the other characters does not actually reflect on Sakurai's personality. You also have to look at who the characters are who are doing this; Duck Hunt loves to taunt the players. It's normal. King Dedede was always someone who gladly will troll characters as part of his personality. It worked perfectly because the characterization fit to create a hyped up surprise.
 

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#90
What they are doing is having fun making cool characters with love and care to give tons of fanbases a fun game to play. Which is actually the core reason Sakurai wants to add characters. For the fanbases.
Sounds like Santa and his elves...

I'm surprised by this:

''There’s no evidence that Jigglypuff was added because of her body shape being similar to Kirby.
It appears that Sakurai has never stated this, and it is most likely a fan theory.''

I'm pretty sure I read an interview where he explained that they barely had time to add secret characters in Smash 64, so they had to be based on already done models: Luigi and Ness on Mario's, Falcon on the original dragon-fighter's skeleton, and Puff on Kirby's. Did I dream this?
 
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Ahm Skittish!

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#91
Sounds like Santa and his elves...

I'm surprised by this:

''There’s no evidence that Jigglypuff was added because of her body shape being similar to Kirby.
It appears that Sakurai has never stated this, and it is most likely a fan theory.''

I'm pretty sure I read an interview where he explained that they barely had time to add secret characters in Smash 64, so they had to be based on already done models: Luigi and Ness on Mario's, Falcon on the original dragon-fighter's skeleton, and Puff on Kirby's. Did I dream this?
I've tried to find that on SourceGaming with no luck. I already know of the interview, but couldn't cite it. You remember where it is? :)

And yeah, not everybody likes gifts. It happens. *shrugs*
 

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#92
Sooo, I still think Dr.Mario is the easiest choice, but.... Hero gameplay was shown.
He looks very cool. He also looks like an absolute pain to deal with. It almost felt like this wasn't a simple DLC, but a "Pay to Win" kinda deal. So many special moves (that refresh with a push of a button), random critical hits. Hopefully his MP bar will keep things somewhat balanced, but that doesn't change the fact that he is basically Link+Robin×10.
I was against picking him before, since he comes from a franchise new to Smash, but now...hmmm.
 

Lenidem

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#94
I've tried to find that on SourceGaming with no luck. I already know of the interview, but couldn't cite it. You remember where it is? :)
I have no idea whare I read that. Maybe I heard it on a Youtube vid... And maybe it's one of those myths with no actual substance people keep repeating?
 

Ahm Skittish!

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#97
I have heard the Puff/Kirby thing before as well... I doubt it's Mandela.

Edit: It wasn't that hard to find guys, lol: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/01/05/ocs-smash-64/
I honestly wasn't able to find that the clone tidbits well even after reading it. Probably was cause I was busy with many other things so misreadings happened.

Thank you.

Besides that, all the more confirming Jigglypuff is an actual Joke Character as cited there too. At least, the only one relevant to Smash's design philosophies.
 

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#98
Joker is from a fairly popular franchise that was brand new to Smash--one that as I understand doesn't really have a single main mascot, no? Yes, Joker was picked from the pool of Persona possibilities in order to sell P5. But given that Smash was getting a Persona character, there wasn't really a better option available. If the series was already repped and then we got Joker, there'd be more of a comparison.
You're saying that as if the Smash team had no option but to represent the Persona series. They didn't and shouldn't have.
 

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Corrin mains see a thread like this and think:

ezgif-2-e460c96df078.jpg


The truth of it is, in my mind, that Corrin is the redheaded stepchild of the Fire Emblem fandom due to her/his game being regarded as one of the worst, and the character itself not being a particularly great part of it.

That said.

She's fun to play, her kit is unique, and she does represent the best selling FE game in the series (though that stat gets skewed when you factor Conquest/Birthright as two separate games, each individually would still be #2 and #3).

I'm biased as a Corrin main myself, but I think we pick on her because she's an easy target, both by the Smash community and by the FE community. That's despite her not even being that unpopular of a character, judging by my online play and occasional tournaments I watch.

The next Smash? I think half the FE characters get axed in favor of fresh faces. Nintendo has plenty of motivation to continue to put FE fighters into the game since the franchise has blown up in the West following Heroes and Three Houses, but we'll probably lose :ultlucina: or :ultchrom:, :ultroy: and :ultcorrinf: in favor of, say, Byleth/Edelgard, possibly Lyn or Celica, and some protagonist from the inevitable next FE game by the time Smash 6 is revealed.
 

Arthur97

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Corrin mains see a thread like this and think:

View attachment 233107

The truth of it is, in my mind, that Corrin is the redheaded stepchild of the Fire Emblem fandom due to her/his game being regarded as one of the worst, and the character itself not being a particularly great part of it.

That said.

She's fun to play, her kit is unique, and she does represent the best selling FE game in the series (though that stat gets skewed when you factor Conquest/Birthright as two separate games, each individually would still be #2 and #3).

I'm biased as a Corrin main myself, but I think we pick on her because she's an easy target, both by the Smash community and by the FE community. That's despite her not even being that unpopular of a character, judging by my online play and occasional tournaments I watch.

The next Smash? I think half the FE characters get axed in favor of fresh faces. Nintendo has plenty of motivation to continue to put FE fighters into the game since the franchise has blown up in the West following Heroes and Three Houses, but we'll probably lose :ultlucina: or :ultchrom:, :ultroy: and :ultcorrinf: in favor of, say, Byleth/Edelgard, possibly Lyn or Celica, and some protagonist from the inevitable next FE game by the time Smash 6 is revealed.
The game is only really hated by the "community." Casually, Fates is pretty well liked.

Also, Lucina is a pretty famous face of the series by now even if the effort into her wouldn't have you think that.
 

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You're saying that as if the Smash team had no option but to represent the Persona series. They didn't and shouldn't have.
Why? Because it's not a series you personally are interested in? It's no less valid than any other new series to Smash of reasonable popularity.

The truth of it is, in my mind, that Corrin is the redheaded stepchild of the Fire Emblem fandom due to her/his game being regarded as one of the worst, and the character itself not being a particularly great part of it.
I just assume most Smash players have never played a Fire Emblem game.
 

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You're saying that as if the Smash team had no option but to represent the Persona series. They didn't and shouldn't have.
“I don’t like Persona so it shouldn’t have any content, I’m upset listen to me!!!!”

Like come on, it’s fine to not like something out of personal bias but don’t try and pass it off as valid reasoning
 

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I just assume most Smash players have never played a Fire Emblem game.
Which is why the large amount of FE reps tends to rub the Smash community the wrong way. Even though the characters themselves are all decently popular picks. My cousin mains Ike and has never once touched a FE game. He just likes him.

What makes Corrin different is the fact that even within the group of people who love Fire Emblem, she's kind of eh. And she was the last DLC character for Smash For, so Smash fans have created this idea of her "stealing" the final spot from someone else due to the convenient timing of FE:Fates's release.
 
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You're saying that as if the Smash team had no option but to represent the Persona series. They didn't and shouldn't have.
"The Smash team didn't have to choose Joker, therefore they shouldn't have,"

Listen I'm not one to judge here but at least offer an explanation why. You're coming off as someone who wants a character removed for no apparent reason which usually translates to spite toward the character for most people.
 

Arthur97

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The Corrins weren't the last of the DLC, Bayonetta was (who would be my second removal after Joker).

Also, those who "love" Fire Emblem often hate Awakening and Fates the most so they probably aren't the best indicators.
 

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What makes Corrin different is the fact that even within the group of people who love Fire Emblem, she's kind of eh. And she was the last DLC character for Smash For, so Smash fans have created this idea of her "stealing" the final spot from someone else due to the convenient timing of FE:Fates's release.
More to do with just plain not needing more FE characters than were already in the game. It was overrepresented, pure and simple. Even if it wasn't another blowaway third party rep like Cloud, ANY other series besides the one that already had 5 characters in the game--more than Zelda, even--was in higher demand.
 

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More to do with just plain not needing more FE characters than were already in the game. It was overrepresented, pure and simple. Even if it wasn't another blowaway third party rep like Cloud, ANY other series besides the one that already had 5 characters in the game--more than Zelda, even--was in higher demand.
I'd like to quickly refute this argument without this becoming another debate thread, because it's a lousy argument.

"It was over-represented, pure and simple" is an objective statement used to describe a subjective opinion, and it comes from a biased perspective. If we take other under-represented series by the numbers-- such as Zelda or Metroid-- and compare them to Fire Emblem, the objective statement is that Fire Emblem has far and away more characters to represent from various generations of the long running series.

Metroid finally has four characters to better adequately represent it, and who are they? Samus, Samus, a dark version of Samus and Ridley. Zelda has six characters, and they're Link, Link, Link, Zelda, Zelda in disguise and Ganon. While we can argue that those characters don't adequately represent the series as a whole-- I'd drop one of those Links for Midna in a heartbeat-- the fact of the matter is that they represent the core of every single game in their series. Fire Emblem has seven different eras of its lore to represent, each with its own enormous cast of characters that dwarfs anything else Nintendo has ever published besides Pokemon. It's why Fire Emblem Heroes works so well: they have a metric **** ton of options and fan favorites.

So while you can hold the opinion that it's over-represented, that's not an objective statement in the least. It's an opinion based on distaste or disinterest in the series. There are so many FE characters I wish were in Smash Bros, but seven at least covers most of the major lords and player characters.
 

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Overrepresentation and game flaws aside, I'm pretty sure the biggest reason people are removing Corrin is because almost no one wanted them in the game to begin with. When a character is so forced in Smash just to be an advertisement it's way less exciting than surprises like Cloud or Joker. They were hoping it would help Fates sell well and it did, but Corrin simply left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure as hell they did for so many others. Fire Emblem then outnumbering Zelda and having a ridiculous amount of fighters at that point only added fuel to the fire.
 

Arthur97

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Overrepresentation and game flaws aside, I'm pretty sure the biggest reason people are removing Corrin is because almost no one wanted them in the game to begin with. When a character is so forced in Smash just to be an advertisement it's way less exciting than surprises like Cloud or Joker. They were hoping it would help Fates sell well and it did, but Corrin simply left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure as hell they did for so many others. Fire Emblem then outnumbering Zelda and having a ridiculous amount of fighters at that point only added fuel to the fire.
Ironic since the two surprises you mentioned rubbed me the wrong way. They were surprises alright. Not good ones.
 

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The importance of sales figures and choosing to use that as the sole metric of value very much are.
Okay then, let's not use hard numbers. Everything's subjective. The decisions game designers need to make, then, are to be based on the collective of these subjective opinions. For example, the large number of people who were subjectively dissatisfied with the addition of so many FE characters over other series. Unless you're suggesting that the designers completely disregard their playerbase and the feedback they provide, which... is not a good business decision.

There's no way you can spin this that makes trivializing a significant group of people's opinions defensible. Either they use hard numbers and there's no reason to have so many FE characters or they use public opinion and there's no reason to have so many FE characters.
 
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Okay then, let's not use hard numbers. Everything's subjective. The decisions game designers need to make, then, are to be based on the collective of these subjective opinions. For example, the large number of people who were subjectively dissatisfied with the addition of so many FE characters over other series. Unless you're suggesting that the designers completely disregard their playerbase and the feedback they provide, which... is not a good business decision.

There's no way you can spin this that makes trivializing a significant group of people's opinions defensible. Either they use hard numbers and there's no reason to have so many FE characters or they use public opinion and there's no reason to have so many FE characters.
A large number of people play these Fire Emblem characters. Don't confuse "loud" with "large".

And you're now taking what I said and turning it into a strawman logical fallacy, so I feel the need to elaborate. I really don't want this debate to take over a thread that's not about debating, so this'll be the last I speak on it.

Sales numbers are not the only metric by which the number of characters is determined. The concept of "series sold X amount of copies, therefore it deserves Y amount of characters" is fundamentally flawed but commonly used by people who simply want to prove their subjective point. If this were true, then Wii Fit should have more characters than any franchise other than Mario and Pokemon.

But let's dial that back and assume you mean more in a sense of "sales numbers indicate how important a franchise is to Nintendo", so it's not a one-to-one situation. Alright. Did you know that the only Nintendo franchises that have grossed over a billion dollars are Mario, Pokemon, Donkey Kong and the Wii brand of games? Zelda, Metroid, Animal Crossing, Star Fox, etc. have not crossed that threshold in their long histories, even when adjusting for inflation. Neither has Fire Emblem. But you know what's interesting? Fire Emblem Heroes on its own has grossed over half a billion dollars in only two years, and has more than doubled all of Nintendo's other mobile apps (Mario, Animal Crossing and Dragalia Lost) combined.

So what does this indicate? That Fire Emblem has exploded. A simple collect-em-all mobile app has in two years earned more than half of what Zelda has earned in thirty-three, even when adjusting for inflation. Awakening was the first FE game to top a million sales, then it topped two million. Then Fates did the same. Now Three Houses has actually doubled the international sales of Awakening's opening week, and doubled the sales of both Fates games combined in their opening week.

Now, these are objective facts, just as Zelda's total sales of over 100 million copies being far more than Fire Emblem's total being an objective fact. My point is that you cannot hold onto a single fact and present it as definitive proof of your subjective opinion. And citing "the large number of people" who agree with you isn't measurable in any way; recent sales figures are, as is the fact that both Roy and Chrom were stated to be included due to fan demand. So yes. Public opinion is carefully considered when deciding on these characters. Just apparently not yours on this one.


To be clear, I have nothing against you or anyone else who doesn't like Fire Emblem. We all have our opinions. It's the extremely flawed arguments that I see that irritate me. People should do their research before claiming absolutes, but no one on forums really does.
 

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Ironic since the two surprises you mentioned rubbed me the wrong way. They were surprises alright. Not good ones.
Surprises nonetheless, and infinitely less forced than Corrin was. Corrin was added purely to advertise a single game. Cloud and Joker came from already popular series with requests for representation and not from one that already had five other fighters.

Joker and Cloud originally rubbed me the wrong way as well--just look at my post history. After Joker was announced I immediately denounced him since I saw him as yet another anime character with no business in Smash. But it took me a little while to realize that both Joker and Cloud had a sizable upbringing for them and I learned to be happy for their fans. I'm not saying you should feel the same way at all, but it's not like they were 100% forced into the game.

This is what separates Cloud, Joker, and other "surprises" from Corrin. They had legitimate reasons for being playable that benefited both fans and the game, whereas Corrin had next to nothing of a fanbase and did nothing but proliferate the already inflated size of the Fire Emblem roster.

The importance of sales figures and choosing to use that as the sole metric of value very much are.
You certainly have an excellent point. If a smaller series like Fire Emblem got a couple of million sales for a game, that would mean much more than the same amount of sales for a gaming giant like Pokemon. But the "over-representation" argument for Fire Emblem comes mainly from the fact that while the series has seen a surge in popularity in recent years, other franchises that are equally if not more popular struggle to get much new content.

Although obviously Fire emblem has many more eras and parts of it's lore that could be represented (I purchased 3 Houses earlier today and I'm already in love with its extensive cast), that doesn't necessarily constitute anything. Nobody ever wrote that as much of Fire Emblem had to be represented as possible. I can say for certain that it's annoying to see Fire Emblem get this much love in Smash when Donkey Kong finally just got its third fighter and Kirby hasn't had any new roster status since 2008, when both series see huge requests for more fighters--way more than there were for Corrin, to say the least.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Corrin mains see a thread like this and think:

View attachment 233107

The truth of it is, in my mind, that Corrin is the redheaded stepchild of the Fire Emblem fandom due to her/his game being regarded as one of the worst, and the character itself not being a particularly great part of it.

That said.

She's fun to play, her kit is unique, and she does represent the best selling FE game in the series (though that stat gets skewed when you factor Conquest/Birthright as two separate games, each individually would still be #2 and #3).

I'm biased as a Corrin main myself, but I think we pick on her because she's an easy target, both by the Smash community and by the FE community. That's despite her not even being that unpopular of a character, judging by my online play and occasional tournaments I watch.

The next Smash? I think half the FE characters get axed in favor of fresh faces. Nintendo has plenty of motivation to continue to put FE fighters into the game since the franchise has blown up in the West following Heroes and Three Houses, but we'll probably lose :ultlucina: or :ultchrom:, :ultroy: and :ultcorrinf: in favor of, say, Byleth/Edelgard, possibly Lyn or Celica, and some protagonist from the inevitable next FE game by the time Smash 6 is revealed.
I’m curious why people think fates is so bad? Personally I think Marth’s Game even in the remake is the worst just from age mostly, but it is why. I heard people hate Ike’s second game as well a lot or a few Japan exclusives.

Maybe of the post awakening age it is? But I could not say.

Granted I haven’t played it yet but Corrin seems at least a lot more unique than other characters for fire emblem.

Granted cutting a lot of fire emblems characters alone is hard
 
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