If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[qwertz143]

L-cancel vs no L-cancel with ganondorf

 

[CORY]

auto-lcancel is absolutetly the same thing as auto-parry to me.

how are they the same thing?

auto parry means "i stand still and you cannot attack me. all i need to do is be aware of you getting close enough to grab and attempting a 3s version of a tomahawk (so, empty jump in into a grab)". auto lcancel means "i perform an aerial and will always have lcancelled landing lag". they don't accomplish the same goals, at all, and auto parry would basically break the game, probably literally.

I won't argue against the absence of startegic value or choice since as i have all ready say: strategic value (wheter you choose to perform it or not) is not the only relevant way to judge movement, the simple fact that a move need skill and performing it succesfull gives a reward is enough.

The only relevant issue that have ever exist about lcancel its it window frame where anyone can tap repeatedly the Z button and perfom a flawless lcancel.

if a technique is performed automatically, there's no strategy to it, though. auto parry has no strategy to performing a parry. if the opponent decides to mix up their attack timings on approach (grounded or aerial) to try and make you mess up a parry, that works because you'll have to anticipate the incoming attack and if you mess up, you're pressing forward and are, thus, unable to block. autoparry just means "move up within your safe range and just don't press anything". there's no timing or spacing mixups involved, outside of "stay away for the empty jump into grab" possibility.

lcancelling already has a similar situation. outside of a a few odd landing animations against a few characters, you're always going to want to lcancel. and then there's no impetus to time it properly (which you also addressed, so...). so, as joe posutlated, 1% of the time, maybe at most, you don't want to lcancel. that's not a good strategic value, it's an arbitrary input.

 

[CORY]

L-cancel vs no L-cancel with ganondorf

wtf is that other dorf doing with a nair in that situation, though? that's, like, literally, not a realistic situation. the one on the left wouldn't be doing a nair there unless he was looking for really niche situations to fish for examples.

and why is the guy on the right was trying to stomp the ground for no reason at all, rather than doing a uair or maybe a bair, or maybe just, oh, empty landing into shield or roll or wavelanding away from that situation entirely.

if right dorf was an idiot and stomped the ground in that situation for no reason, you'd have enough to to go low and hit a bair, possibly go low enough to catch him with afc into a better punish.

but a ****ing nair?

this isn't even a realistic situation.

 

[qwertz143]

Okay so I made the gif

So when you use Kirby with auto l cancel on, the thing is holding down while doing the dair results in loss of attack frames. Idk if I got the gif wrong or something, but whenever I play with kirby and I dair with l cancel I always feel it does less damage.
No l-cancel always gets the complete dair attack frames though...

 

[Rawkobo]

Okay so I made the gif

So when you use Kirby with auto l cancel on, the thing is holding down while doing the dair results in loss of attack frames. Idk if I got the gif wrong or something, but whenever I play with kirby and I dair with l cancel I always feel it does less damage.
No l-cancel always gets the complete dair attack frames though...

you jumped in for the no l-cancel. might have something to do with it.

 

[qwertz143]

Fixed it

 

[JOE!]

Fixed it

Going Frame by Frame, it appears that the 18%th hit lands before Kirby lands...

Lets check the attack itself:

Hey, look at that! It hits 6 times for 3%. 3x6 = 18%. Just to be sure, lets look at the landing animation:

No hitboxes... Sorry, but maybe you are Fast Falling when trying to Lcancel?

 

[qwertz143]

No hitboxes... Sorry, but maybe you are Fast Falling when trying to Lcancel?

I guess i'm used to SHFFL but with auto l cancel mode on, kirby just tends to fall fast and doesn't deal the proper damage

 

[Stryker]

http://gfycat.com/DifferentHairyChupacabra

Not L cancelling has tactic advantage depending on character.
Edit: Didn't see that it was already posted. Only saw the ones related to damage. But yeah, damage should be the same, but you can intentionally change your hitbox size which is important.

 

[JOE!]

http://gfycat.com/DifferentHairyChupacabra

Not L cancelling has tactic advantage depending on character.
Edit: Didn't see that it was already posted. Only saw the ones related to damage. But yeah, damage should be the same, but you can intentionally change your hitbox size which is important.

We also went over how that is incredibly rare to occur to the point of barely being near insignificant.

 

[Rawkobo]

^ this

also:

I guess i'm used to SHFFL but with auto l cancel mode on, kirby just tends to fall fast and doesn't deal the proper damage

see, when you say that and admit that you're used to fast-falling as part of your method, then you just said what the problem is. you're falling too fast. what difference does it make if it's something trained into you that's causing the problem in the first place?

 

[trash?]

again, contexts and whatnot: l-cancelling is silly, and the argument being so deeply-rooted is also silly. THAT BEING SAID:

the argument for auto-l-cancel is that nothing would change beyond an execution barrier. this is sort of why it's considered a no-brainer option for most, yeah? but 1% of a difference* still means that you can note that change hundreds of times when you traverse thousands of hours into it. that's a whole different ballgame under this argument, because even if you think it's in a small way, this affects what you can do at a top level

*note that it could vary wildly; people don't equally use all characters, and those characters don't use their aerials equally, but on the flipside, current arguments also don't take into account stuff like GnW's dair, which is a good aerial from a top tier, having a landing hitbox so ehhhhh

 

[masterpad]

people are ready to torn appart the original engine of a game just for a pointless comfort.

We should be humble, actually many auto/no-lcancel pros act like their all ready know everything and every situation the PM game engine can produce. more than 15 years after a new advanced tech is discored in melee, and we want to scrach pm at its birth.
What arrogant is to take the responsability to permanent substract something as landing animation from the game like we all ready lnow everything.

people should understand that : autolcancel or nolcancel means no landing animation at all.
Which means, we are saying that landing animation is a total mistake from the dev team from melee or from pmdtv who kept it.

lets get back to earth and play the game so it could reveal us more secrets, intesity and pleasure
landing animation is part of the game, and since pm engine is not a 1:1 copy of melee engine we don't really know what we are doing by building up an era of player that will never see their player's landing animation.

 

[9bit]

people should understand that : autolcancel or nolcancel means no landing animation at all.
Which means, we are saying that landing animation is a total mistake from the dev team from melee or from pmdtv who keep it

Yeah but they took out the L-cancelling mechanic in Brawl and Smash4

Checkmate, atheists

 

[masterpad]

Yeah but they took out the L-cancelling mechanic in Brawl and Smash4

Checkmate, atheists

Yeah but Brawl and Smash4 are less competitively relevant than melee or projectM

Double Checkmate, heretic

 

[9bit]

Yeah but Brawl and Smash4 are less competitively relevant than melee or projectM

Double Checkmate, heretic

Hoisted by my own petard!

 

[qwertz143]

Well the thing is, I don't even l-cancel all of my aerials, stuff like uair and fair how I land does matter, and sometimes I don't l-cancel as it is possible to prevent punishes. Adding an auto l-cancel feature removes the ability to have that bit of lag when I want it.

 

[JOE!]

Well the thing is, I don't even l-cancel all of my aerials, stuff like uair and fair how I land does matter, and sometimes I don't l-cancel as it is possible to prevent punishes. Adding an auto l-cancel feature removes the ability to have that bit of lag when I want it.

Why would you want lag outside of that super niche Dair situation? And if its kirby Specific, wont people just adapt and try to shoot low anyways?

 

[masterpad]

Why would you want lag outside of that super niche Dair situation? And if its kirby Specific, wont people just adapt and try to shoot low anyways?

as people can adapt and just lcancel jsut as everyone did for years...

 

[666blaziken]

Why would you want lag outside of that super niche Dair situation? And if its kirby Specific, wont people just adapt and try to shoot low anyways?

why are you being so insistent that auto L-canceling should be a thing? Is it a dumb mechanic? Very, but it's really fun, artificial difficulty or not, it adds a layer of depth when there is a chance that your opponent misses the L-cancel and you take a stock because of it. It's easy enough to do for beginners as it is with 8 frames, where most sf combos are 1 frame links. As much as I love pm, I agree with the melee players that it's easier than melee... Do we really want to make this game even easier?

 

[Kurri ★]

why are you being so insistent that auto L-canceling should be a thing? Is it a dumb mechanic? Very, but it's really fun, artificial difficulty or not, it adds a layer of depth when there is a chance that your opponent misses the L-cancel and you take a stock because of it. It's easy enough to do for beginners as it is with 8 frames, where most sf combos are 1 frame links. As much as I love pm, I agree with the melee players that it's easier than melee... Do we really want to make this game even easier?

If it means removing unnecessary mechanics, yes. Also, that's not depth.

 

[masterpad]

If it means removing unnecessary mechanics, yes. Also, that's not depth.

And you are speaking in the name of which all mighty knowledge?

lcancel is depth and necessary

 

[wiztick]

in old traditional fighters(sf3 for example) blocking was completly manuel for the most part, you would have to tediously hold back for an entire block string and that in itself put an unneeded skill gap on who can punish effectivly while also holding back, in modern fighters, holding back once(at least in sf4 from what i know) has a somewhat "autoblock" feature that blocks blockstrongs but blockstrongs don't lose there touch.

Tldr: popular fighters like street fighter can get rid of stuff like this why not PM?

 

[Kurri ★]

And you are speaking in the name of which all mighty knowledge?

lcancel is depth and necessary

One, it's not depth. Two, if there is depth, you better prove it.

in old traditional fighters(sf3 for example) blocking was completly manuel for the most part, you would have to tediously hold back for an entire block string and that in itself put an unneeded skill gap on who can punish effectivly while also holding back, in modern fighters, holding back once(at least in sf4 from what i know) has a somewhat "autoblock" feature that blocks blockstrongs but blockstrongs don't lose there touch.

Tldr: popular fighters like street fighter can get rid of stuff like this why not PM?

Yeah, it's pretty much a staple of 2D fighters now, although I'm not sure about Mortal Kombat

 

[JOE!]

why are you being so insistent that auto L-canceling should be a thing? Is it a dumb mechanic? Very, but it's really fun, artificial difficulty or not, it adds a layer of depth when there is a chance that your opponent misses the L-cancel and you take a stock because of it. It's easy enough to do for beginners as it is with 8 frames, where most sf combos are 1 frame links. As much as I love pm, I agree with the melee players that it's easier than melee... Do we really want to make this game even easier?

In the old Lcancel thread I provided mathematical proof that 75%** of aerials cannot be punished for missed Lcancels on -reaction- by all but the most twitchy of players. To summarize, the average reaction time is about 14 frames before you register something, and fast players can get that to around 10ish frames. Many attacks in the game can either auto-cancel at times (no landing!) or even when you whiff have an animation that is very fast like Fox's Nair at 15 frames. If Fox doesn't Lcancel Nair, the average player would only realize this happened 1 frame before Fox can act again, whereas a very fast player can have around 5 frames notice, which then becomes character and situation dependent on their options. Nobody really punishes whiffed Lcancels -on reaction-, usually you toss things that would work even if they cancelled, or toss out a preemptive punish in hopes that they mess up their cancels in the first place.

I'm not for or against auto L-cancel being on, I can play fine either way. I'm just tossing points out that seem to make more sense that Auto-Lcancel has little to no practical downsides.


** I may do a study on this to chart all character landing lags and lcancelled values just for giggles

 

[Rawkobo]

why are you being so insistent that auto L-canceling should be a thing? Is it a dumb mechanic? Very, but it's really fun, artificial difficulty or not, it adds a layer of depth when there is a chance that your opponent misses the L-cancel and you take a stock because of it. It's easy enough to do for beginners as it is with 8 frames, where most sf combos are 1 frame links. As much as I love pm, I agree with the melee players that it's easier than melee... Do we really want to make this game even easier?

saying it's "really fun" is subjective.

there's no layer of depth to punishing unoptimized tech skill; it's something you just do. in what universe do you choose not to punish failed tech skill when you most certainly have the opportunity to?

 

[qwertz143]

Why would you want lag outside of that super niche Dair situation? And if its kirby Specific, wont people just adapt and try to shoot low anyways?

It's not just that. I was testing auto L cancel mode today, and I found out that even for aerials, you can get easily shield grabbed. This happened quite a few times actually.
But with the auto L cancel off, shield grabs can be avoided as long as we press L early.
So I don't even know...

 

[Rawkobo]

It's not just that. I was testing auto L cancel mode today, and I found out that even for aerials, you can get easily shield grabbed. This happened quite a few times actually.
But with the auto L cancel off, shield grabs can be avoided as long as we press L early.
So I don't even know...

that...doesn't make much sense, because getting shield grabbed comes down to being in range for a grab because you whiffed on shield. and once again, outside of kirby dair, which we've discussed, there's not really a situation where that applies and is any different from other aerials?

it seems like most of the arguments being made here come down to human error and human decisionmaking, which aren't actually mechanics of the game, as reasoning for manual l-cancelling. note these are things that are fundamentally refined whether or not tech skill, which l-cancelling scarcely is to begin with, is incorporated into them or not.

 

[Bleck]

"l-canceling should be in the game because of this one situation where kirby doing a down air at this exact range at this exact time against this exact character doing this exact move means that it'll miss when it otherwise would have hit!"

how are people this dumb

 

[JOE!]

"l-canceling should be in the game because of this one situation where kirby doing a down air at this exact range at this exact time against this exact character doing this exact move means that it'll miss when it otherwise would have hit!"

how are people this dumb

Not true, the Missile was an example to show the properties of Dair in action. Any move that covers "missile-space" here would whiff. Still though, it is very particular in application.

 

[zpxociv]

The pro L-cancel argument has been nothing but stubborn change-fearing BS from the start. Not even worth bothering with.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

I would be a little disappointed, I like L-cancelling, it makes me feel better than I actually am and gives me and my friends a little number to compare at the end of the match. I also think that L-cancelling can make some matchups just a little more bearable if your opponent misses one, for example if your getting pillared by Falco or something and he misses a down air L-cancel then it can slow down his pressure by just a bit and make it easier to deal with.

But honestly if auto L-cancel became an official rule then I would probably only care for like a day.

Spoiler

Also when did this whole L-cancel war start

 

[666blaziken]

I would be a little disappointed, I like L-cancelling, it makes me feel better than I actually am and gives me and my friends a little number to compare at the end of the match. I also think that L-cancelling can make some matchups just a little more bearable if your opponent misses one, for example if your getting pillared by Falco or something and he misses a down air L-cancel then it can slow down his pressure by just a bit and make it easier to deal with.

But honestly if auto L-cancel became an official rule then I would probably only care for like a day.

Spoiler

Also when did this whole L-cancel war start

It started since the pmdt implemented L-canceling in their mod. Some people like it, others don't. IMO it isn't really that big of a deal to ban it, but it's really just an argument to buff characters's frame data in my eyes rather than just buffing it when a certain button is pressed. I could go either way, but I would prefer the L cancelling on because it isn't too hard to do, melee already had this, and it is basically a game that's supposed to be a sequel to melee, and sometimes not L-cancelling is optimal such as kirby's dair timing.

 

[666blaziken]

"l-canceling should be in the game because of this one situation where kirby doing a down air at this exact range at this exact time against this exact character doing this exact move means that it'll miss when it otherwise would have hit!"

how are people this dumb

ok, fine, here's another example, when ike does his fair against gannon and misses the L cancel, gannondorf can't grab him because his head sinks way too low.

 

[CORY]

if ike hit ganon's shield with fair, ganon shouldn't be able to grab it, anyway, bcuz trex arms.

 

[Bleck]

ok, fine, here's another example, when ike does his fair against gannon and misses the L cancel, gannondorf can't grab him because his head sinks way too low.

I'm going to ignore this post because you don't know how to spell ganondorf

 

[GabPR]

Is there a way to turn on auto lcancel on for a player and off for another?

 

[CORY]

Is there a way to turn on auto lcancel on for a player and off for another?

no, it's all on or none : /

if you're doing it to help teach a newer player gameplay strategy with less emphasis on lcancelling, you can still input your shield press and it won't affect you negatively (i.e. you act like you're lcancelling, anyway. if you input during the proper lcancel window, it won't make you suddenly shield for no reason unless you held it for too long).

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you want lag outside of that super niche Dair situation? And if its kirby Specific, wont people just adapt and try to shoot low anyways?

so when you don't l cancel, i can kill you for it.

-----

TOs are welcome to do whatever they want. that said, if i personally saw a tournament with automatic L cancel, I would think it's a joke.

 

[wiztick]

hey guys i got an idea for a new fighting game check it out. for every move that you use you have to hit the back in a certain amount of frames to get the "standard version" of the move. other wise its worse.

hell lets make the input character dependent based on how fat they are !

wait thats stupid? thank god i can't find something simliar anywhere else.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)