If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[Ridel]

While I think l-canceling is a dumb mechanic I just don't see myself not doing it manually. Even though technically having it done automatically doesn't affect muscle memory it just psychologically messes with me.

 

[666blaziken]

hey guys i got an idea for a new fighting game check it out. for every move that you use you have to hit the back in a certain amount of frames to get the "standard version" of the move. other wise its worse.

hell lets make the input character dependent based on how fat they are !

wait thats stupid? thank god i can't find something simliar anywhere else.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Wizdom

 

[masterpad]

hey guys i got an idea for a new fighting game check it out. for every move that you use you have to hit the back in a certain amount of frames to get the "standard version" of the move. other wise its worse.

hell lets make the input character dependent based on how fat they are !

wait thats stupid? thank god i can't find something simliar anywhere else.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I have all ready explained it to all heretic, no one should go against lcancel but maybe only against its window frame conception.

the point is you dont propose anything on the otherside, hit the back in a certain amount of frame is not a problem if there is a reward.(its the whole point when you play a game)
the "standard version" of the move as you said, means nothing, '"standard" is YOUR point of view.

in smash there is a landing animation after an areal because it makes sense that after an effort in the air the character doesn't have enough stamina to land comfortably.(Dev would have added landing animation after any kind of jump it would have looks totally normal to me)
But the animation goes with a lag, since this lag can be a flaw in the defense or an obstacle when performing some combos, the dev of melee/pm added the land(animation)-cancel mecanism so skilled player can be rewarded with a lagless landing.

THAT'S SIMPLE , CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

 

[JOE!]

I have all ready explained it to all heretic, no one should go against lcancel but maybe only against its window frame conception.

the point is you dont propose anything on the otherside, hit the back in a certain amount of frame is not a problem if there is a reward.(its the whole point when you play a game)
the "standard version" of the move as you said, means nothing, '"standard" is YOUR point of view.

in smash there is a landing animation after an areal because it makes sense that after an effort in the air the character doesn't have enough stamina to land comfortably.(Dev would have added landing animation after any kind of jump it would have looks totally normal to me)
But the animation goes with a lag, since this lag can be a flaw in the defense or an obstacle when performing some combos, the dev of melee/pm added the land(animation)-cancel mecanism so skilled player can be rewarded with a lagless landing.

THAT'S SIMPLE , CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

 

[Bleck]

THAT'S SIMPLE , CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

incredible

 

[masterpad]

incredible

people who have never ever create anything but going against sakurai and the pmdt without any
self-criticism, that is incredible!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

people who have never ever create anything but going against sakurai and the pmdt without any
self-criticism, that is incredible!

Sakurai also removed it because he thought it was a bad idea.

Food for thought.

Pmdt was also clear multiple times not everyone was ok board with it.

 

[Delta Chae]

Sakurai also removed it because he thought it was a bad idea.

Food for thought.

Pmdt was also clear multiple times not everyone was ok board with it.

Sakurai also removed wavedashing, dash-dancing, jump-cancelling, and various other advanced techniques so let's not use his decisions as a form of proof as to what is right or wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sakurai also removed wavedashing, dash-dancing, jump-cancelling, and various other advanced techniques so let's not use his decisions as a form of proof as to what is right or wrong.

I was doing that in response to another implying it was.

 

[Delta Chae]

I was doing that in response to another implying it was.

I'm not really sure what that person was implying because of how poorly worded the post was. That said, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[LightningDragon]

heretic

Translation: "anyone who disagrees with me"

the "standard version" of the move as you said, means nothing, '"standard" is YOUR point of view.

No, it's based on objective fact.

the dev of melee/pm added the land(animation)-cancel mecanism so skilled player can be rewarded with a lagless landing.

L-Cancelling is an arbitrary input, not a skill.

THAT'S SIMPLE , CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

That you don't know what you're talking about.

people who have never ever create anything but going against sakurai and the pmdt without any
self-criticism, that is incredible!

You're one to talk about "self-criticism" since you clearly don't do any fact-checking. Also, how did you know that they never created anything? How is that they haven't created anything even a valid argument?

 

[SunJester]

Anyone remember the time Armada L-Cancelled better than anyone else and won Evo?

Thank god Sakurai decided to put it in Melee, if he didn't I'm positive some random scrub would have won!

 

[WalkrOfSky]

I wouldn't show up to a scene that allows auto-l canceling in PM for the same reasons I wouldn't for Melee; it encourages splitting the scenes into two groups of people, and it hurts the players that only attend those events. With auto-l canceling on, the scene that uses it will create a split locally. Those that refuse to attend the auto l-cancel on tourneys would leave, lowering the attendance. Those players will learn the game with it on, and likely only want to play with it on. This means that they will never attend a regional or national, lowering our overall numbers. Basically, it's the same reason I don't support switching to 3.6.1 until a national basically announces that's what they are doing and they want everyone else to switch too. Most people wont fight that hard on switching versions, but you'd have hell to pay switching from auto l-cancel off to on. Melee has had the ability to enable auto-l cancel for a while, and I don't even think it's a discussion whether or not they should.

A minor point; those that input a hard press for l-cancels (not the most ideal, but it's the way a lot of people start out), tend to have tech flubs due to that. Air dodging after accidentally ledge canceling, inputing techs that ruin your window due to attempted l-canceling, etc. These are all things that we eventually get past as we get better.

To me, it's not a matter of attracting "scrubby" players; it's a matter of not getting those players abilities to the same level as everyone else in a national way. Because lets face it, if you learn the game with it on, you'll suck with it off, probably for a while. To me, having a for fun tournament that allows gentleman's to auto l-cancel on would be beneficial for attracting new players, but playing for money or any other prize would mean better players will always refuse to gentleman's, as they lose their advantage.

 

[JOE!]

Melee has had the ability to enable auto-l cancel for a while, and I don't even think it's a discussion whether or not they should.

When did this happen?

but playing for money or any other prize would mean better players will always refuse to gentleman's, as they lose their advantage.

So, the only advantage they have would be the ability to lcancel, and evening that one facet would make them worse than those who don't?

 

[masterpad]

too easy ...

Translation: "anyone who disagrees with me"

i was gassing, of course we are arguing because we dont have the same opinion

No, it's based on objective fact.

"objective fact" you said "objective fact", what is objective?

a landing animation for whoever jump is objective
having lag during landing animation is objective
lag making the one who jump defenseless or unable follow up his previous attack is objective
including an input that can cancel all this lag is objective but still debatable according how the input is managed/performed

L-Cancelling is an arbitrary input, not a skill.

the way to do it need skill and the CHOICE to perform a move or not IS NOT THE ONLY interessant value in game and so many fighting game all ready proove it. The lcancel input has a window frame where it should be performed AND THAT IS THE REAL DEBATE

That you don't know what you're talking about.

apparently we belong to the same tribe...

You're one to talk about "self-criticism" since you clearly don't do any fact-checking. Also, how did you know that they never created anything? How is that they haven't created anything even a valid argument?

YOU should check facts and stop following a couple of people who wrongly though they where enough smart to find an absurd , pointless mecanism in such a master-piece as SmashBros... lcancel doesnt exist in most of other 2D-fighting games as landing animation. but other mecanism only base on performing-to-reward system do exist in many other games, mecanism that doesnt have any strategic value, that are only base on the system of reward for everyone who performed it sucessfully, do we starting a list?
YOU should check facts!

 

[FirewaterDM]

We should leave auto-L canceling off. I'd still give it a try but it would throw people off especially if there are certain characters or mechanics where L canceling doesn't matter or they are used to the timing betewen getting it right or not. 90% of the time L-Canceling a move is the optimal option, in those other 10% of cases, sometimes having that short bit of delay can help follow up on something that otherwise wouldn't normally work, or save a player from a punish because their opponent expected the L Cancel. This isn't rewarding the bad, I just think there are times, especially for players who have solely played with not auto L cancels, where having the choice could matter in small ways.

L canceling is still optimal, and I don't think it detracts from the game (everyone thinking it's a waste and or takes away from the actual gameplay is wrong), but I think that even if you mess up the input the timing is still there and it helps. It literally becomes second nature after you play the game enough, and you don't have to use it if you don't want to. But either way if you want to be at the top level you gotta know how to play the game effectively, and there's a difference between a potentially unlikely but strategic non-use of L Cancels, and letting people not learning the tools so when they play top players they get wrecked because of the loss of knowledge.

Tl;dr- keep the auto L Cancel for friendlies, the ability to input or not input the cancel is actually beneficial to mixups in a small way. But it shouldn't be the tournament structure- Even if other games have this option you don't see other versions of smash, or FG's in general keeping auto-tech buttons on in actual play.

 

[JOE!]

We should leave auto-L canceling off. I'd still give it a try but it would throw people off especially if there are certain characters or mechanics where L canceling doesn't matter or they are used to the timing betewen getting it right or not. 90% of the time L-Canceling a move is the optimal option, in those other 10% of cases, sometimes having that short bit of delay can help follow up on something that otherwise wouldn't normally work, or save a player from a punish because their opponent expected the L Cancel. This isn't rewarding the bad, I just think there are times, especially for players who have solely played with not auto L cancels, where having the choice could matter in small ways.

Earlier in the thread we went over the only situations where NOT Lcancelling is beneficial and even then they were super-duper niche. Statistically, there IS NO SITUATION where not Lcancelling is superior. Also, opponents should always assume you are going to lcancel, and any punish that would've worked vs an lcanceled aerial would surely work vs a missed one aside from a Super missile in Kirby's face lol.

 

[FirewaterDM]

Earlier in the thread we went over the only situations where NOT Lcancelling is beneficial and even then they were super-duper niche. Statistically, there IS NO SITUATION where not Lcancelling is superior. Also, opponents should always assume you are going to lcancel, and any punish that would've worked vs an lcanceled aerial would surely work vs a missed one aside from a Super missile in Kirby's face lol.

I read that discussion and I'm aware. I'm 100% on the side of the people saying this shouldn't be anything but a side tourney/friendlies setup at best at tournaments. I'm saying even when people screw up it's a mixup/game changing issue. I was just pointing out a different way of thinking other than the whole learn how to play, it becomes second nature if you practice enough. Not like you can't just go into training mode with your main for an hour and practice l cancel timings, but I was just thinking of a better reason to actively try and debate this issue.

Even if it's similar to the yes/no vaccines question in terms of whether it's a good idea or not.

 

[GP&B]

Mistakes aren't really a mixup. From the perspective of a mixup, dropping an L-cancel is a majorly suboptimal option that removes all of your followup potential and makes you wide open to punishes. A mixup would entail a choice that would be considered suboptimal and more risky but could provide a varied and more effective response to your opponent. Human error is simply that and this is all that L-canceling really encompasses without providing much else to the game, hence why the debate of dropping the mechanic/introducing ALC is never-ending.

 

[WalkrOfSky]

When did this happen?

20xx hack pack has the ability to turn on auto l-cancel iirc. A version where that is the only change could be made.

So, the only advantage they have would be the ability to lcancel, and evening that one facet would make them worse than those who don't?

You're missing the point. I don't care on principle if they are the better player than me with it on. I care if I can win. If turning it off gives me an advantage, I'd take it if money is on the line. They may be the better player with it on, as they may play that way all the time. But as a player playing for money, I personally care more about playing to win than who is the better player with different rules than what I play with normally. Same reason I wouldn't gentleman to turbo mode to be honest. It wouldn't be in my advantage to do so, and will be fully to my disadvantage.

 

[Kurri ★]

20xx hack pack has the ability to turn on auto l-cancel iirc. A version where that is the only change could be made.



You're missing the point. I don't care on principle if they are the better player than me with it on. I care if I can win. If turning it off gives me an advantage, I'd take it if money is on the line. They may be the better player with it on, as they may play that way all the time. But as a player playing for money, I personally care more about playing to win than who is the better player with different rules than what I play with normally. Same reason I wouldn't gentleman to turbo mode to be honest. It wouldn't be in my advantage to do so, and will be fully to my disadvantage.

So for you it's not whether or not it's a bad mechanic (which it is) but that you simply want to have an advantage over others? I mean, I suppose that's fair, can't really argue that tbh. I just feel for the sake of having healthy competition removing unnecessary barriers and easing certain things would be more beneficial than keeping that edge. Sorta why Capcom removed One-Frame Links from Street FIghter V because they realized making things easier leads to a healthier community.

 

[CORY]

Well, to be fair, the topic is how he would feel about it being on at tourneys and not the merits of mlc vs alc... >.>

 

[masterpad]

Well, to be fair, the topic is how he would feel about it being on at tourneys and not the merits of mlc vs alc... >.>

yes , and as the debug auto-lcancel mode should be kept as a practice tool

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

why are you being so insistent that auto L-canceling should be a thing? Is it a dumb mechanic? Very, but it's really fun

Sorry, but I can't get behind that being considered "fun".

 

[JOE!]

20xx hack pack has the ability to turn on auto l-cancel iirc. A version where that is the only change could be made.



You're missing the point. I don't care on principle if they are the better player than me with it on. I care if I can win. If turning it off gives me an advantage, I'd take it if money is on the line. They may be the better player with it on, as they may play that way all the time. But as a player playing for money, I personally care more about playing to win than who is the better player with different rules than what I play with normally. Same reason I wouldn't gentleman to turbo mode to be honest. It wouldn't be in my advantage to do so, and will be fully to my disadvantage.

Im fairly sure that if somebody would definitively beat you given both of you could Lcancel 100%, then they would beat you even if they Lcanceled at most by "accident" since there are far stronger aspects to good play.

 

[666blaziken]

Sorry, but I can't get behind that being considered "fun".

well let's see:
A. you're pressing more buttons for better execution of your character; that puts more interaction between your fingers and your character, characters with good tech skill are generally satisfying to play; and as quoted by dr. peepee, "I like falco because I get to press a lot of buttons with him" and it feels satisfying to know that even with characters without any tech like mario or kirby can at least be somewhat technical with L-cancelling.
B. Part of why tr4sh sucks is because there is a lack of tech, and while just putting in L-cancelling wouldn't make the game that much better, it would at least feel rewarding to master that timing.
C. you can capitalize off of someone's missed L-cancelling, which adds a layer of depth to the punish game, and although L cancelling is fake difficulty, it is pretty essential for a game often called Project MELEE!

 

[xquqx]

Arbitrary displays of "tech skill" are only fun if fun is the new shorthand for hand destroying.

 

[Zakaru]

Earlier in the thread we went over the only situations where NOT Lcancelling is beneficial and even then they were super-duper niche.

You did not go over "the only situations where not lcancelling is beneficial". For example there was no mention of peach who can go under some grabs during her landing lag on her fair. There are probably many more aerials that have this feature that just haven't been noticed yet. Additionally not all of these are that niche - there have been high level peach mains in melee who have used this to bait Marth's shield grab and punished accordingly.

Also, opponents should always assume you are going to lcancel, and any punish that would've worked vs an lcanceled aerial would surely work vs a missed one aside from a Super missile in Kirby's face lol.

You're missing the point that even if that was the only situation (which it is most certainly not) it would still be a reason to leave auto l-canceling off.

Statistically, there IS NO SITUATION where not Lcancelling is superior.

Also how are you going to say this when you demonstrated a situation where it is superior. Just because something is only relevant in some situations does not remove it as a statistic. This is a blatant lie.

Just the fact that there are SOME situations where not l-canceling is beneficial is enough to warrant not turn on auto l-canceling.

Additionally, by turning on auto l-canceling you are also removing defensive options. You keep claiming that there is no strategic value in l-canceling when that is objectively false, the value is just for the player on defense. When in shield you can angle it to adjust the timing that your opponent will hit the ground by making them hit your shield earlier or later, thus changing the timing for l-canceling. Yes, it is still optimal for them to l-cancel but this is creating a situation where your opponent has an opportunity to force a mistake.

You cannot claim turning on auto l-canceling doesn't remove depth from the game. Numerous situations have been brought up in this thread where l-canceling does provide depth. Just because they aren't relevant at low level play or aren't extremely common does not mean they aren't there.

 

[Bleck]

every player who thinks l-canceling is a good mechanic is probably bad at the game

 

[Zakaru]

every player who thinks l-canceling is a good mechanic is probably bad at the game

Nice argument mate.

 

[drakargx]

Also how are you going to say this when you demonstrated a situation where it is superior. Just because something is only relevant in some situations does not remove it as a statistic. This is a blatant lie.

Uh yeah you can, it's called an outlier. Out of the ~500 aerials in the game there are like 10 that give some sort of benefit to not l cancel because you go under some character's grab. That is hardly 1% of the entire list of aerials, by all means it fits the definition of an outlier and can be excluded.

And about your argument for tilting your shield: You would be right if shield sizes weren't so small. At most you end up removing the last frame from the l cancel window by angling your shield in such a way so that the opponent spends the maximum amount of time in the air due to hitting it. That reduces it down to a 6 frame window, but since most people practice the timings based on not hitting a shield and thus will get an l cancel in the first 4-5 frames, it does next to nothing.

EDIT: So there are 205 aerials as JOE stated earlier, not 500. Still my point stands - it is not close to 1% of all aerials.

 

[wiztick]

snip

that's not depth, that's forcing a move to be more tedious than it has to be. forcing a mistake while on DEFENSE sounds like a not fun design, don't know why you need to get a reward for just shielding, especially since the reward is well...not getting hit as opposed to getting not and AND an opportunity to get a punish with a shield-grab, jab etc. for...what reason?

 

[Zakaru]

Uh yeah you can, it's called an outlier. Out of the ~500 aerials in the game there are like 10 that give some sort of benefit to not l cancel because you go under some character's grab. That is hardly 1% of the entire list of aerials, by all means it fits the definition of an outlier and can be excluded.

41 characters * 5 aerials each = 205

10/205 = .049

Roughly 5% of the aerials have this benefit according to your numbers (also 10/500 is 2% which is literally double the 1% you claim it barely reaches). I'd be willing to wager that significantly more than 10 aerials in the game change the shape of your hurtbox as well.

 

[wiztick]

every player who thinks l-canceling is a good mechanic is probably bad at the game

nah good and even players can have bad opinions, there is a definite line between game developer/designer and great player.

 

[Zakaru]

that's not depth, that's forcing a move to be more tedious than it has to be. forcing a mistake while on DEFENSE sounds like a not fun design, don't know why you need to get a reward for just shielding, especially since the reward is well...not getting hit as opposed to getting not and AND an opportunity to get a punish with a shield-grab, jab etc. for...what reason?

This is entirely subjective and I completely disagree with you. The reward isn't for JUST shielding. It is for shielding and intelligently placing it to screw with your opponent, that is depth by definition and in my opinion that does sound like fun.

 

[Bleck]

Nice argument mate.

this argument has been had dozens of times over the past five years, maybe you should seek out those threads before spouting any more dumb nonsense

 

[Zakaru]

this argument has been had dozens of times over the past five years, maybe you should seek out those threads before spouting any more dumb nonsense

Your argument was literally "If you have this opinion on this entirely subjective thing your mechanical skill at something gets worse". Sounds like you're the one "spouting dumb nonsense".

Anyway, I've said my piece which was just to show that claiming that there is no strategic value in l-canceling is objectively false. If you want to play with auto l-canceling be my guest.

 

[drakargx]

41 characters * 5 aerials each = 205

10/205 = .049

Roughly 5% of the aerials have this benefit according to your numbers (also 10/500 is 2% which is literally double the 1% you claim it barely reaches). I'd be willing to wager that significantly more than 10 aerials in the game change the shape of your hurtbox as well.

Okay so I'm bad at math, I still think 5% is an outlier though.

This is entirely subjective and I completely disagree with you. The reward isn't for JUST shielding. It is for shielding and intelligently placing it to screw with your opponent, that is depth by definition and in my opinion that does sound like fun.

Like I said earlier, there is no "intelligent placing" of your shield, unless by that you mean to place your shield in a not dumb spot like away from where they're hitting you. Moving your shield up or down does not change the window enough to make a difference.

 

[Some Idiot]

Most likely.

 

[wiztick]

snip

you're telling me, in a game where wavedashing, dash dancing, wavelanding, and other evasive movement options that can bait a punish, or less get less which is pressure on an opponent or worst comes to worse resetting to neutral, i should just "intelligently place" a shield to "screw with my opponent". to just hope that by chance, they miss an L-cancel, to get even a few of those advantages i said earlier