If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[4tlas]

JOE! Well that didn't go over well LOL

For everyone else who doesn't know, I tried talking about it to my scene. Almost had an anxiety attack. And this scene is one of the most accepting/reasonable groups.

 

[Rawkobo]

4tlas Apparently SG is trying it, but some rumbling has been happening regarding it.

 

[4tlas]

4tlas Apparently SG is trying it, but some rumbling has been happening regarding it.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I am the TO of SG.

Just suggesting it was a total disaster! /cry

 

[Rawkobo]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I am the TO of SG.

Just suggesting it was a total disaster! /cry

OH.

I'M SO DUMB. O_O

Yeah, Sora had some backlash to it apparently.

 

[4tlas]

OH.

I'M SO DUMB. O_O

Yeah, Sora had some backlash to it apparently.

lol no worries.

There was plenty of backlash all around. Enough that I won't even TRY running it. Maybe if there's time for a random side bracket, but enough people said they weren't even willing to try that I doubt the data will even be useful.

 

[Rawkobo]

lol no worries.

There was plenty of backlash all around. Enough that I won't even TRY running it. Maybe if there's time for a random side bracket, but enough people said they weren't even willing to try that I doubt the data will even be useful.

I just don't get it.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this. To an extent, the side of "it feels good and right" has a lot more weight than anticipated. And it's not that something feeling good is necessarily bad.

But to reject something on the same grounds because of hivemind mentality is like...I don't even know.

 

[CORY]

lol no worries.

There was plenty of backlash all around. Enough that I won't even TRY running it. Maybe if there's time for a random side bracket, but enough people said they weren't even willing to try that I doubt the data will even be useful.

Those big babies...

 

[4tlas]

I just don't get it.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this. To an extent, the side of "it feels good and right" has a lot more weight than anticipated. And it's not that something feeling good is necessarily bad.

But to reject something on the same grounds because of hivemind mentality is like...I don't even know.

Plenty of people said they like it, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. And I understand, though I don't agree with, people who say they don't want their time investment to go to waste.

There are also some good arguments brought up about just how MUCH ALC would help grow the scene, which again is not scientific or quantifiable. There were also good arguments brought up about how nobody in our scene is at the same tip top level of the Melee gods, so missed L-cancels do actually affect us in practice. There were also good arguments about how the majority of people who are afraid to waste their time learning L-cancelling are casuals at heart regardless, and will never truly care enough to compete at the highest level. Of course there will be some people who are competitive at heart but need this one time barrier removed to give it a try, but it might not be that many. Finally, good points were brought up about how nobody else will run it.

There were also many really really really bad points. I think we covered all of those in this thread, and honestly I don't care enough to go back and find them.

Then there were some interesting points, such as pointing out how it would affect balance because the tech ceiling of some characters (spacies, mainly) and the human limitations are the only thing keeping them in check. Personally I think that's just evidence of how broken Fox is (and how stupid Falco is), but that is neither here nor there.

Finally, there was a decent amount of anger, snide comments, ad hominem, and casual-shaming. I won't draw any conclusions from this, but almost all of those play Melee heavily as well. It also doesn't help that I am well known for not L-cancelling. I actually expected more people to call out a conspiracy, but the only people who did say "Atlas just wants to do this so he can win!" were joking. Overall, it probably went better than it would have at any other scene. It went much worse than I expected. Not because of the rejection or the bad arguments, but because of the **** slinging.

 

[xquqx]

This thread is twelve pages of **** slinging, and there's a lot more people here who are accepting of change from "but muh melee" than the general competitive smash scene, so I'm not sure what you were expecting, unfortunate as it may be.

 

[4tlas]

This thread is twelve pages of **** slinging, and there's a lot more people here who are accepting of change from "but muh melee" than the general competitive smash scene, so I'm not sure what you were expecting, unfortunate as it may be.

My scene is not the general competitive smash scene. I respect them highly.

 

[standardtoaster]

You could technically try and pull the wool over their eyes by turning on ALC on every setup before people come in to prove ALC won't make a difference in their placings. Although this is kind of scummy haha

 

[Narpas_sword]

i think someone posted a code for the gct to enable it on by default, and have the switch do nothing =p

 

[Guel]

Deceiving players into using ALC? Not cool...

 

[xquqx]

I mean, if as the TO you ran a no entry fee (so people couldn't complain about feeling like their money was "stolen") tournament with ALC on secretly, that would provide some solid, non-theoretical information for this discussion. You'd have to be willing to run a no entry fee tournament though, which would be logistically difficult.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Deceiving players into using ALC? Not cool...

All the best physiological studies are 'deceiving'

best way to get data =p

 

[4tlas]

You could technically try and pull the wool over their eyes by turning on ALC on every setup before people come in to prove ALC won't make a difference in their placings. Although this is kind of scummy haha

Deceiving players into using ALC? Not cool...

All the best physiological studies are 'deceiving'

best way to get data =p

It is the best way to gain scientific data. I'm not willing to do that to people.

However, it did happen by accident once, and nobody noticed except for their suspiciously consistent 100% L-cancel rate, though this was back in 3.6beta. I'm pretty sure nobody would have noticed otherwise.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Yea, im not really condoning it =p

 

[JOE!]

Like I said on FB 4tlas , after tourney when its friendly time run some reverse MM's for science:

Two volunteers run a Bo5 with ALC on. Winner gets 2$, loser gets 1$. They also then talk about the experience.

 

[4tlas]

Like I said on FB 4tlas , after tourney when its friendly time run some reverse MM's for science:

Two volunteers run a Bo5 with ALC on. Winner gets 2$, loser gets 1$. They also then talk about the experience.

If only I had the money to throw around. SoonTM

 

[Respect38]

Speaking for myself [and perhaps myself only], I think ALC would make me much more likely to get into the PM scene in the future, and that's for the same reason that I find myself drawn to Brawl, Sm4sh, and Sm4sh SLHG--it feels like, instead of learning to throw in another arbitrary input to unlock the competitive version of my character, the competitive version of my character is already available to me, and all that I have to do is learn how to utilize my character's tools in order to play competitively, or potentially learn the other ATs associated with those games. [And, at least with those ATs there's the possibility of getting punished for using them at the wrong time or in the wrong way, which isn't the case with L-cancelling--the only time you get punished with L-cancelling is when you fail to do it]

Also, if you're relying on L-cancelling to build an artificial gap between casuals and competitive players, then you're not as good at fighting games as you thought, you're just the input equivalent of a tier *****. [except we can actually remove the artificially inflated inputs, while we can't completely remove the concept of tiers by nature] The competitive players of Brawl, Sm4sh, and Sm4sh SLHG will always beat casual players even without the crutch of L-cancelling on their side.

 

[Phaiyte]

If someone honestly believe their ability to L cancel is the defining line between whether you win a tournament or lose in pools, you're probably not actually good enough to be worried about whether it should be auto or not.

 

[Scribe]

So, with all of this discussion of turning ALC on at tournaments, is there anyone else on the Pro-ALC side who actually TO events?

Because I might try to get an ALC-on PM tournament going in Orange County, NY. I've always loved experimental stuff like that.

Also, as a little thing for the people who think that lowering the execution barrier is going to open the floodgates to total randos beating experienced players, I'm going to quote Ryan Hart on this. He said it in regards to Street Fighter 5, but it definitely applies here.

“One must not get mixed up in the idea that simplifying the combos makes winning easier, this is a misconception. Easier combos makes playing the game easier but not winning. Beginners don’t lose because they cannot do combos... Having the ability to create out of the box, devise strategy, deal with pressure, adapt on the fly, and stay ahead of the opponent mentally are some things that separate the wheat from the chaff.”

 

[4tlas]

Hi, I TO Smashing Grounds. I polled my players to see if anyone would even be willing to try ALC tournaments on occasion with advanced notice, and the thread exploded. I have great respect for the players in my region, so I didn't expect it to get so out of hand. I shudder to think what would happen in less openminded regions.

So good luck. I wont be even trying ALC at SG anytime soon.

 

[Scribe]

Were you offering it as a main event type thing or as a side event?

Because I'm thinking of discussing an ALC PM side event at, say, a Smash 4 or Melee tournament with some local TOs who usually run something Melee-related on S4 days and something S4-related on Melee days. This could work either way - Something for the Melee players that won't exclude S4 players on Melee days, or a way for S4 players to get in on the action on Melee days.

And as a side note, I really like how Capcom plans on running official beginner tournaments for SFV. That's the sort of thing that the Smash community really needs.

 

[Ningildo]

And as a side note, I really like how Capcom plans on running official beginner tournaments for SFV. That's the sort of thing that the Smash community really needs.

You mean the one that sold us out for ads and Nintendo money? Kappa

But regarding this, I really don't care anymore if it happens or not. I can live with either option, but I don't find barely defensible mechanics...

You know, never mind that. I've rambled enough about that in this thread, so I'll shut up and hopefully this thread dies, cause it's a dead horse.

Only for another to take it's place, though, so see you next thread.

 

[4tlas]

Were you offering it as a main event type thing or as a side event?

Because I'm thinking of discussing an ALC PM side event at, say, a Smash 4 or Melee tournament with some local TOs who usually run something Melee-related on S4 days and something S4-related on Melee days. This could work either way - Something for the Melee players that won't exclude S4 players on Melee days, or a way for S4 players to get in on the action on Melee days.

And as a side note, I really like how Capcom plans on running official beginner tournaments for SFV. That's the sort of thing that the Smash community really needs.

We currently run PM and Melee simultaneously. I cannot afford to run another sidebracket, I cannot justify running ALC in place of Melee when most of the PM players would either just play both or refuse to try ALC, and the PM players said they would not attend if I ran ALC. And if we switched to ALC permanently at any point in the future, a vastly overwhelming majority of players said they would never attend again.

There is something to be said about players who manage to find PM are also the type that are willing to grind out L-cancelling. That practical viewpoint, when coupled with the enormous backlash from current players, is enough to convince me to leave it alone for the present. If you can collect data though, that would be wonderful. As I've said before, we had a tournament that accidentally had on ALC and nobody noticed so... I honestly doubt there's a downside other than perceived value. But that perception itself is a large downside, since many current players will simply choose not to play.

The stigma is the big thing, in my opinion. The mechanic can cause suffering and cause happiness in whatever portions. The stigma of "you don't know how to Lcancel thus you are worthless since you arent competitive" is the real problem here.

 

[JOE!]

And yet 4tlas still gets high placement / beats melee vets who have 99-100% lcancel rates when he never ever L-cancels himself.

 

[4tlas]

And yet 4tlas still gets high placement / beats melee vets who have 99-100% lcancel rates when he never ever L-cancels himself.

I've accidentally L-cancelled in Melee because I want to shield really badly. Does that count?

 

[xquqx]

I've accidentally L-cancelled in Melee because I want to shield really badly. Does that count?

If you won that game, that's the only reason why you did.

 

[4tlas]

If you won that game, that's the only reason why you did.

Newsflash: L-cancelling one dair as Zelda makes her viable in Melee!

 

[Deleted member]

If someone honestly believe their ability to L cancel is the defining line between whether you win a tournament or lose in pools, you're probably not actually good enough to be worried about whether it should be auto or not.

uhh as a sheik player i grabbed missed l cancel landings all the time and have a near flawless l cancel rate myself because i understand the value of winning at the margin. not only is it defining for wins, its even more defining in the face of opponents with better punish games. ALC also chooses marginal winners and losers based on how characters interact with possible missed l cancels. people have already noted this with fox.

 

[Bleck]

uhh as a sheik player i grabbed missed l can

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

 

[Deleted member]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

citing anecdotal evidence to discredit the claims is something you have to determine on an ad hoc basis, its not simply something you can defer to because my point of view is limited. i concede that my own point of view is facile in the face of the larger debacle but i consider the merits of my arguments no less credible for it. of course i would defer to my own point of view, who better to call upon for experience than myself? if you watch any of my videos on youtube, i always check for l cancel percentage win or lose because marginal advantages win games.

 

[Narpas_sword]

if you watch any of my videos on youtube, i always check for l cancel percentage win or lose because marginal advantages win games.

Wouldn't checking after the game, simply be reinforcing any ideals? it's essentially confirmation bias.
too hard to science really.


On another note:

I'm having a local at my place tomorrow, and have asked players to try some games with ALC on, and to offer opinions after.
Thinking i'll get them to play a bo5 MLC, then ALC and note their thoughts. All are low to mid level players, so it's would affect them more than high level.

 

[4tlas]

Wouldn't checking after the game, simply be reinforcing any ideals? it's essentially confirmation bias.
too hard to science really.


On another note:

I'm having a local at my place tomorrow, and have asked players to try some games with ALC on, and to offer opinions after.
Thinking i'll get them to play a bo5 MLC, then ALC and note their thoughts. All are low to mid level players, so it's would affect them more than high level.

For the sake of science, ask half of them to play ALC first then MLC. Helps separate time and sequence of events.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I was thinking of doing it 'blind' and not telling them if on or off then changing or something or changing each set. But figure they can just check if it's on in game

 

[Deleted member]

Wouldn't checking after the game, simply be reinforcing any ideals? it's essentially confirmation bias.
too hard to science really.

confirmation bias would cone from associating a lower l cancel rate with a loss. i just always check because i want to play optimally, theres tons of time where i get bodied and still have a perfect rate, and sometimes when i win with like a 77% l cancel rate i pop off about being esports and MLG pro lol.

 

[CORY]

I was thinking of doing it 'blind' and not telling them if on or off then changing or something or changing each set. But figure they can just check if it's on in game

yeah, the only way to set up a perfectly blind setup for a test like this would be for them to not expect it whatsoever, so there's no "hold on, let me do an aerial and see what my end lag looks like".

though, even in a perfectly blind setup, an observant player could be all "wait, i TOTALLY missed the lcancel there, hold up... let's do an aerial- WHY IS ALC ON!?"

and that's ignoring the potential ethics (probably not the right word, but it mostly fits) issues that would arise from running a tourney without announcing it.

 

[Lamesama]

Can't delete, removing all my posts for privacy.

 

[CORY]

You'll still be giving people the opportunity to look for it actively, which would give the chance for bias to affect results.