If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[masterpad]

If you (choose to) Waveland, you would not have been able to Lcancel at all in the first place. Lcancel only happens if you land mid-attack, if you are able to air-dodge you are no longer attacking meaning you could not have had the choice to lcancel the attack.

No, you can't choose to l-cancel in a situation where you'd be able to waveland or vice versa.

yes,of course. but my main point was : it is an opportunity in one particular situation! this situation is not the entire game, why making it a thing?! yes it is important but it is only happening from how we play. we choose to jump or not, how we jump, if we do an arial or not and when we doing it. and we know our arial animation.

I think no one would mind lag animations being adjusted to have the same amount of lag as l-cancelled and removing l-cancelling entirely, as it's effect on gameplay would be the exact same as auto l-cancelling at the top level, which is to say none.

Yes it is a choice . but you noticed that there is a clear difference between top level play and other levels of playing the game. wich means you are doing all this on a none universal/absolute point of view of the game.

I'm.. gonna try to spell this out a little better for you. If I'm using an aerial, and I'm gonna hit the ground while it's active, is there any reason not to L-cancel it?

Using an aerial as it is still active while hitting the ground doesn't happen all the time in the game with all the players, it is a particular situation, unless everybody think and play the same way. It could be the case for melee but pm is a pretty new game with its own engine, just let the game live it life.
Why should it be a problem to hit a button EVERYTIME to reduce lag landing if YOU CHOOSE to strike with an aerial AS it will still be active while you hit the ground? it is an opportunity given.
Do not reverse the situation, the problem may be players habit not the opportunity given to avoid lag.
Players make the choice to jump,they make the choice to shorthop or full jump; they make the choice to do an arial or not, they choose the exact moment they stryke hit the arial.
i repeat, Why should it be a problem to hit a button to reduce lag landing if you choose to strike with an aerial AS it will still be active while you hit the ground???! even if it has to be hit everytime , it is you making the call to stryke as lcancel will be needed!

You seem to have this misconception that L Cancelling is extremely important.
(...)You have failed to demonstrate how L Cancelling adds depth to the game.

no, it is people that started the remove lcancel debate that made it a thing. And most of them started it with melee meta game experience.
What is important is Pm has a life to live, its engine permit even brawl advanced tech. In the name of which almighty knowedge do we really think we are not removing something important by setting to automatic an input in the game in mind.
All this is mostly base on the hidden idea that what (auto lcancel) could not be a problem in melee after 15years of meta, will certainly be the same for pm, which is wrong!
Even in october 2015 , a new advanced tech has been discover in melee! who would have predict that?! Let pm be!

 

[Lamesama]

Can't delete, removing all my posts for privacy.

 

[masterpad]

Sorry if I'm not getting your point, the language barrier is there for sure. What I meant is that L Cancelling is not important in the metagame. Of course people do it all the time, so much so that missing an L Cancel is extremely rare. But it does nothing to provide meaningful interaction between the two players. The PMDT gave us the option to turn on ALC, just as Ninty gave us the option to turn off items. Also I fail to see the relationship between V Cancelling and L Cancelling.

Vcancelling is the last product of the melee engine discovered by experienced player of 15 years of meta-game.
lcanceling is a tech that is about to set definitly on automatic-mode in competition, on an unknow game engine, that has been just realase, where players are still looking for their main, because people think they know everything of the game.

 

[xquqx]

Vcancelling is the last product of the melee engine discovered by experienced player of 15 years of meta-game.
lcanceling is a tech that is about to set definitly on automatic-mode in competition, on an unknow game engine, that has been just realase, where players are still looking for their main, because people think they know everything of the game.

But there's nothing new to discover about L canceling so I'm not sure why all this is relevant?

 

[Ningildo]

yes,of course. but my main point was : it is an opportunity in one particular situation! this situation is not the entire game, why making it a thing?! yes it is important but it is only happening from how we play. we choose to jump or not, how we jump, if we do an arial or not and when we doing it. and we know our arial animation. lcan

Who even advocated that aerials being done in a way that forces you to l-cancel was the entire game? How is this relevant to your statement earlier? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything said previously on the matter.

Using an aerial as it is still active while hitting the ground doesn't happen all the time in the game with all the players, it is a particular situation, unless everybody think and play the same way. It could be the case for melee but pm is a pretty new game with its own engine, just let the game live it life.
Why should it be a problem to hit a button EVERYTIME to reduce lag landing if YOU CHOOSE to strike with an aerial AS it will still be active while you hit the ground? it is an opportunity given.
Do not reverse the situation, the problem may be players habit not the opportunity given to avoid lag.
Players make the choice to jump,they make the choice to shorthop or full jump; they make the choice to do an arial or not, they choose the exact moment they stryke hit the arial.
i repeat, Why should it be a problem to hit a button to reduce lag landing if you choose to strike with an aerial AS it will still be active while you hit the ground???! even if it has to be hit everytime , it is you making the call to stryke as lcancel will be needed!

Because some characters have to FH in order to not land with the animation (and even then, some FFers can't even do that)? And that FH just to avoid landing with an aerial's animation loses you stocks and games as it puts you above characters? Some of those characters literally can't land without being in the middle of an aerial unless they choose not do an aerial in the first place. So what choice do they have then?

no, it is people that started the remove lcancel debate that made it a thing. And most of them started it with melee meta game experience.
What is important is Pm has a life to live, its engine permit even brawl advanced tech. In the name of which almighty knowedge do we really think we are not removing something important by setting to automatic an input in the game.
All this is mostly base on the hidden idea that what (auto lcancel) could not be a problem in melee after 15years of meta, will certainly be the same for pm, which is wrong!
Even in october 2015 , a new advanced tech has been discover in melee! who would have predict that?! Let pm be!

How does l-cancelling help with finding new tech? The only thing you'd be able to argue is some desynch setups for ICs, but that involves missing it. And end list of "new tech that were found by l-cancelling". What tech in Melee were found by l-cancelling? Would they have never been found without l-cancelling? All l-cancelling does is halve landing lag. That's it. I doubt anything would've been hindered by a lack of l-cancelling being in the game (instead, there would be lag on landing aerials equal to the landing lag after an l-cancel), unless you can show me tech that could only have been discovered by manual l-cancelling being in the game.

The latest tech in Melee had absolutely nothing to do with l-cancelling and neither did 99.9% of other tech. Now you're using "keeping the engine untouched so future discoveries can be made" card, but in order for that card to work, you're going to have to show me tech that were only capable of being found due l-cancelling.

Also, you promised to answer my question. Please do.

 

[4tlas]

Ok , i see your position and i really understand why you say lcancel is going against the game philosophy since it is a way to ask for skill that is not common to the others mechanism of the game.
But it doesn't have to happen all the time since you don't jump or do an arial or even land all the time! people see lcancel everywhere because they think the same way , a snake main for example, doesn't have to care about that much. And you should understand that there are people that found it very very fun!

Thank you for acknowledging that you understand that part. It really helps with finding out exactly where we disagree so we can discuss that part further! =)

I'm not sure what doing it all the time has to do with it though. Yes, I completely agree that it matters more to some characters/players than others, and I do know some people that find it a lot of fun. That's wonderful, and is an excellent reason to have the option in the game. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we should use it for competition, which is where making the default ALC would make a difference.

Now you are trying to caricaturate, Lcancel is a SINGLE button input to press in a window of frame, a very very common procedure in fighting games there is nothing exaggerated.

You're right that L-cancelling is much simpler than it could or would be if the game were trying to test tech skill as much as traditional fighters. My point was that simply saying skill should result in reward does not justify the mechanic, but pointing out that skill doesn't result in reward is a point against a mechanic.

This is a complete made up story! so melee and pm are lacking of new players because of lcancel?! yes , i know tournament's organizers have feedback on how lcancel is a problem for beginners. But as a beginner somebody should not face obstacles when learning advanced techniques of a game? waveDash, ledge hog are also very difficult when you start! I think the common idea that a consistent amount of beginners are leaving because of lcancel is exaggerated. There will always be people letting down a game for one reason or another. Many beginners just want to move theirselves in smash like in the others fighgting game they have experienced and perform great things without any skill. OK, it won't be a skill after the apparent difficulty as you say but that's veteran part off the topic, beginner experienced just what beginner have to experienced.

You are correct again that more people are scared away by wavedashing than by L-cancelling. The difference is that we should not remove wavedashing because there are decisions to be made that affect gameplay. When do you wavedash? How far do you wavedash? Where do you wavedash? Wavedashing opens up different opportunities but closes others, so there is a time to use it and a time not to. Testing the input is not the important part of wavedashing.

Yes, beginners have to learn plenty of skills to get good at the game. But there are 2 skills that everyone considers the "baseline", without which (everyone says) you have no chance at even truly participating, let alone winning. Those are wavedashing and L-cancelling. Wavedashing looks very intimidating to new players, true. But they don't just have to learn HOW to do it, they have to learn WHY, and that will continue to separate good from great players all the way up the skill climb. For L-cancelling, its obvious to any new player that its just there to test whether or not they can press buttons. Its only there to ask "did you practice your inputs", and to many players that's very disheartening. Why am I putting in this effort to learn a skill that has no bearing on "playing the game"? Remember that to most people who play Smash (yes including casuals), its the fighter with simplistic inputs. "Playing the game" to them is making decisions, not pressing buttons. There are plenty of people who would like to compete but don't want to compete at the basic button press level.

Furthermore, there are plenty of other skills to test; plenty of other obstacles for beginners exist.

Ok , is this all about helping beginners? i dont like the attitudes around either but it is not only in smash community. A beginner can feel that way almost in every deep game he starts. Videos always looks so intimidating. Enven i, a 32 years old player of fighting games since i was 13, MarvelvsCapcom3 videos/x-factor tech/assist-gameplay intimidate me so much in the beginning when it is a so simple game!
Are smash games on the verge of extinction that theirs core has to be thrown apart to make them survive? Beginners should get over it and elders should not pamper them with a futur without lcancel. Auto-lcancel is avalaible for training and helps to get use to it.
it is a pain in the as , like many other one in many other games

It is a pain in the ass, though I'm not sure why you think of ALC as pampering. If it becomes the tournament standard, then isn't it just that: standard?

 

[DahremRuhar]

I mean we could remove the ice from ice hockey so that people who don't want to learn to skate would be able to play without learning a fundamental physical aspect of the game. Technically there is no real reason to play hockey on ice, it can be played on concrete, or on grass.

Anyway, if you peeps want ALC enabled tournaments, then host them instead of trying to convince other people that this isn't just a way for bad players to instantly get better with no effort.

 

[4tlas]

I mean we could remove the ice from ice hockey so that people who don't want to learn to skate would be able to play without learning a fundamental physical aspect of the game. Technically there is no real reason to play hockey on ice, it can be played on concrete, or on grass.

Anyway, if you peeps want ALC enabled tournaments, then host them instead of trying to convince other people that this isn't just a way for bad players to instantly get better with no effort.

They have that, its called Floor Hockey. Furthermore, Ice Hockey is ABOUT skating while also passing and shooting the puck.

As I have said multiple times, Smash is about NOT having to do needless button inputs for the basic level of play.

And as the MLC people have brought up multiple times, splitting the community is a bad idea. Running the ALC tournaments without convincing a large group of people to switch beforehand is just going to result in a whole bunch of people being unsure which is the "real" one, and then nothing changes because uncertain people will default to the status quo. Convincing people of the logic of our stance is the right thing to do.

Another thing is that trying to convince people is literally the purpose of a forum. What you've essentially said is "get off my forum you baddies".

 

[Bleck]

I mean we could remove the ice from ice hockey so that people who don't want to learn to skate would be able to play without learning a fundamental physical aspect of the game.

you mean like floor or field hockey, you ignoramus???

 

[DahremRuhar]

They have that, its called Floor Hockey. Furthermore, Ice Hockey is ABOUT skating while also passing and shooting the puck.

As I have said multiple times, Smash is about NOT having to do needless button inputs for the basic level of play.

And as the MLC people have brought up multiple times, splitting the community is a bad idea. Running the ALC tournaments without convincing a large group of people to switch beforehand is just going to result in a whole bunch of people being unsure which is the "real" one, and then nothing changes because uncertain people will default to the status quo. Convincing people of the logic of our stance is the right thing to do.

Another thing is that trying to convince people is literally the purpose of a forum. What you've essentially said is "get off my forum you baddies".

No, what I've essentially said is "you can keep this circlejerk going but you will accomplish nothing until you actually demonstrate why this is better in a real event, you baddies."

I'm sorry, I don't actually care what you've said multiple times. All I know is these threads keep popping up; there is a ton of "trying to convince people" and yet I have not seen any ALC enabled tournaments yet. All us "MLC people" understand your logic, we really do. The problem is that we really don't want our efforts to go unrewarded in a game that was literally made for people who like to having to do "needless button inputs for the basic level of play."

Of course you don't have to do those needless button inputs for the basic level of play. You need to be able to do those needless button inputs to compete with those of us who have already learned them, for money.


tl;dr: we totes understand your logic, but no one is going to host an ALC tournament. If you want it to become a standard to pander to scrublets, host your own and demonstrate that it is actually better this way.

you mean like floor or field hockey, you ignoramus???

Yes that's exactly what I mean you pretentious dip****.

Notice how nobody cares about floor hockey or field hockey, just like no one cares about your idea about baby tournaments for babies.

 

[4tlas]

The problem is that we really don't want our efforts to go unrewarded in a game that was literally made for people who like to having to do "needless button inputs for the basic level of play."

It was not made for that, as stated in the design documents.

Your attitude is even worse than anyone's I've ever encountered when discussing this topic. You decided to skip all of the logical arguments and went right to "because I invested the time to learn how to do this arbitrary skill, everyone else should have to as well. If you can't be bothered then you're just pathetic". Bad logic AND insults.

I understand feeling like you have invested your time, which is valuable, into something, and you don't want it to go to waste. However, that is not a reason to force such an investment upon others. If L-cancelling had any gameplay impact that was worth keeping, perhaps it could at least be justified. But it doesn't. Of all of the skills in this game, this one is pretty much not a skill. Even though everyone is being required to learn it, it is a WASTE of time. And it is a waste of a considerable amount of time. If it didn't take much time, why would you care that other people would be allowed to bypass it?

As for actually demonstrating that running ALC tournaments is better than running MLC tournaments, its not as easy as to just "do" it. Running tournaments is in itself a difficult proposition, requiring a lot of time and effort. The scene already exists in MLC form. Starting a new separate ALC scene and keeping it alive long enough (without intertwining it with MLC, which would ruin the experiment) to have some hard data is a daunting prospect. It is far easier to convince the current scene to switch over, and that is extremely difficult as well.

Your demand is just plain unreasonable. And your attitude about how not L-cancelling is for babies scares off more people than the L-cancelling itself.

 

[DahremRuhar]

It was not made for that, as stated in the design documents.

Your attitude is even worse than anyone's I've ever encountered when discussing this topic. You decided to skip all of the logical arguments and went right to "because I invested the time to learn how to do this arbitrary skill, everyone else should have to as well. If you can't be bothered then you're just pathetic". Bad logic AND insults.

I understand feeling like you have invested your time, which is valuable, into something, and you don't want it to go to waste. However, that is not a reason to force such an investment upon others. If L-cancelling had any gameplay impact that was worth keeping, perhaps it could at least be justified. But it doesn't. Of all of the skills in this game, this one is pretty much not a skill. Even though everyone is being required to learn it, it is a WASTE of time. And it is a waste of a considerable amount of time. If it didn't take much time, why would you care that other people would be allowed to bypass it?

As for actually demonstrating that running ALC tournaments is better than running MLC tournaments, its not as easy as to just "do" it. Running tournaments is in itself a difficult proposition, requiring a lot of time and effort. The scene already exists in MLC form. Starting a new separate ALC scene and keeping it alive long enough (without intertwining it with MLC, which would ruin the experiment) to have some hard data is a daunting prospect. It is far easier to convince the current scene to switch over, and that is extremely difficult as well.

Your demand is just plain unreasonable. And your attitude about how not L-cancelling is for babies scares off more people than the L-cancelling itself.

You know what? You are right. I'm sorry for expressing myself like a ****. It was excessively rude. Like, tbh I really don't like ALC (not going to lie and say I do) but you certainly have a right to your opinion. I would be interested to see some people try ALC tournaments. I wouldn't host one myself, and it would annoy me if they /did/ become the standard but I would assimilate for the sake of the community, and I'd get over it.

Do you have a regular local in your area? See if you can convince anyone there to play a few matches with ALC on, someone good-ish. Make your case, talk to the TOs and such. Who knows what will happen.

Sorry for being an ass. It's easier to be that way about an opinion particularly on the internet as we all know. Trying to check myself and all.

 

[4tlas]

You know what? You are right. I'm sorry for expressing myself like a ****. It was excessively rude. Like, tbh I really don't like ALC (not going to lie and say I do) but you certainly have a right to your. I would be interested to see some people try ALC tournaments. I wouldn't host one myself, and it would annoy me if they /did/ become the standard but I would assimilate for the sake of the community, and I'd get over it.

Do you have a regular local in your area? See if you can convince anyone there to play a few matches with ALC on, someone good-ish. Make your case, talk to the TOs and such. Who knows what will happen.

Sorry for being an ***. It's easier to be that way about an opinion particularly on the internet as we all know. Trying to check myself and all.

That's alright. Thanks for apologizing! No hard feelings =)

I agree that the best arguments would be hard evidence, but unfortunately its just so hard to get. I did mention just a few posts up (idk if you saw it) that I am the head TO of Smashing Grounds, so I know that the TO is up for it!

However, there are some reasons why I haven't tried to do it yet. The first is that, though many of my players say they think L-cancelling is a waste of space, there are plenty who do not. Converting the scene over without support nationwide would certainly cause many people to stop coming, and it would take some time before we notice an increase in turnout from non-MLC people, if any! I can't afford to disservice the current "consumer base" like that. As for running ALC tournaments alongside MLC ones, I don't think there's enough "demand". People would either not enter ALC because some of the best competitors (and all the travelers, since everyone else will still be using MLC) will stick with ALC, or they will enter both because they don't care, and I can't afford to run an extra bracket with so many cross-registrants.

I do plan to talk about it eventually, but there are just too many other things right now and too much change at once will almost certainly lead to rejection. We are already experimenting with ruleset and stagelist changes. Unless a large group of TOs agrees to switch together, I doubt it will ever work out. But convincing people one-by-one of the merits may eventually cause there to be enough public support that such a thing could happen, which is why I bother discussing it.

 

[Bleck]

Notice how nobody cares about floor hockey

notice how your argument is literally "it should stay because that's what other people think"

 

[4tlas]

Bleck, you aren't going to convince anybody by being an asshat about it. It doesn't matter how right you are, you only look righteous to the people who already agree with you. You look obnoxious to everyone who disagrees, and those are the people you're trying to convince.

 

[Bleck]

there's nothing I can do or say to convince anybody of an idea contrary to one that they've intrinsically tied to their self-esteem, and I'm not gonna pretend like that's anything but straight-up idiocy

 

[4tlas]

there's nothing I can do or say to convince anybody of an idea contrary to one that they've intrinsically tied to their self-esteem, and I'm not gonna pretend like that's anything but straight-up idiocy

Well you're correct, there is probably nothing you can do to convince someone of something directly opposed to the core concepts of their worldview.

However, that doesn't mean you can't convince them of something else that is similar or related. For example, though we disagree on the value of L-cancelling, DaharemRuhar and I are able to agree that the best theoretical method for getting data is to run some tournaments. If we discuss this further, perhaps he has some insight to provide regarding how to go about convincing staunch MLC players like himself. Even if he doesn't explicitly say anything enlightening, talking to him respectfully gives insight into the type of person he is, and therefore greater understanding of the group in the community that agrees with his stance.

And if you truly see no value in any of that, then don't post. Seethe at your computer screen if you have to. If you truly think he is so beyond hope that you cannot convince him, then there is no point in chiming in just to ridicule him. It won't convince him to think differently and it won't convince anyone else on the forum. In fact, all it does is damage your position. Once your respectability comes into question, the legitimacy of every argument you provided loses weight.

 

[Bleck]

Even if he doesn't explicitly say anything enlightening, talking to him respectfully gives insight into the type of person he is, and therefore greater understanding of the group in the community that agrees with his stance.

the type of person he is based on the whole "anyone who doesn't like l-canceling must be bad at the game" thing belongs to a group of people that I already identified earlier in the thread in this post

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the main reason people argue in favor of l-canceling is so that they can be condescending about it in the same way that Vigilante has been doing

you can replace "Vigilante" with "DahremRuhar" and it's basically the same idea; everyone will call me out for being condescending to people who think positively about l-canceling, but this very thread is full of consistent examples of people only arguing in favor of l-canceling so that they can be condescending to other people

you can't reasonably expect to actually convince people like that of anything because that would involve expecting them to care about how someone other than themselves actually feels for once in their life

 

[DahremRuhar]

the type of person he is based on the whole "anyone who doesn't like l-canceling must be bad at the game" thing belongs to a group of people that I already identified earlier in the thread in this post



you can replace "Vigilante" with "DahremRuhar" and it's basically the same idea; everyone will call me out for being condescending to people who think positively about l-canceling, but this very thread is full of consistent examples of people only arguing in favor of l-canceling so that they can be condescending to other people

you can't reasonably expect to actually convince people like that of anything because that would involve expecting them to care about how someone other than themselves actually feels for once in their life

And this thread is chock full of you being a complete asshole. I mean at least you are fairly self-aware about it, but here's the thing; it doesn't matter if you keep doing it.

You behave exactly like the people you dislike so much. This is an argument based around what afaik most of the community sees as a non-issue. I probably wouldn't have said half the **** I said if I hadn't seen what an arrogant, self-important dingus you conduct yourself like when talking to anyone who thinks that MLC should stay for the purpose of preserving the game as it has been for a long time. You claim that the fairly minimal perks of ALC outweigh the risk of alienating a large portion of the community. You say that if it splits the community it doesn't mater because apparently anyone who disagrees with you doesn't belong in the community; I honestly have no idea why you would say something that utterly conceited and outright ****ing stupid.


To everyone who isn't an arrogant poopyhead:
I'm open to the idea of ALC but I also think dogma is a perfectly good reason to maintain MLC and seeing as I already know how to L-cancel, I'm not really going to fight for ALC. Might toss the idea around to the other staff at our local/regionals but I just don't know about the logistics of it. Perhaps try it a smashfest or something? If I broach the idea to more people would you all like to hear the opinions of the players?

 

[masterpad]

Who even advocated that aerials being done in a way that forces you to l-cancel was the entire game? How is this relevant to your statement earlier? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything said previously on the matter.

I'm not sure what doing it all the time has to do with it though. Yes, I completely agree that it matters more to some characters/players than others, and I do know some people that find it a lot of fun. That's wonderful, and is an excellent reason to have the option in the game. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we should use it for competition, which is where making the default ALC would make a difference.

This is an important point!
You two are telling me "Who even advocated that aerials being done in a way that forces you to l-cancel was the entire game?" and "I'm not sure what doing it all the time has to do with it though."
read this please:

For L-cancelling, its obvious to any new player that its just there to test whether or not they can press buttons. Its only there to ask "did you practice your inputs", and to many players that's very disheartening. Why am I putting in this effort to learn a skill that has no bearing on "playing the game"?

You are litellary speaking like there is no way to make a single thing in the game without lcancel however i have even see ppmd playing with marth without lcancel in melee, only relying on fast fall to spedd up his air-combo.
And You are completly wrong about the purpose of lcancel!
that is the exact moment where everything auto-l-cancel pros sound like ideologist to me.
lcancel is an extra, a plus, something to help people - that choose by theirselves to jump, to do an arial and to do their arial the way it will still be active while landing- to reduce their landing lag.
if it is so important and present in the competitive and and advance game, it is because of the way people play not because of the game itself.

My point was that simply saying skill should result in reward does not justify the mechanic, but pointing out that skill doesn't result in reward is a point against a mechanic.

you should noticed that there is a clear issue: at last, is lcancel a skill or not?
And i don't understand you very well because lcanceling clearly result in a rewards!
and saying it doesn't justify its present would means You are thinkig from an unique point of view :strategy.
- Or it will means you don't find the lcancel that skillfull to perform which depends on players.
- Or it will means you feel that it its a random input that has to be press everytime and that is only because of the way you play, or the experience you have of melee's meta but here is pm or your main.

But there's nothing new to discover about L canceling so I'm not sure why all this is relevant?

hello almighty , how could you know that?
let me expose a situation i just create:
maybe one day by performing an arial-reversal-rush Bair just before landing and because of the game engine+the brawl advanced tech, i will perform an automatic-moonwalker or some other kind of new movement that auto-lcancel will never allow the discovery! how could you possibly know?

The latest tech in Melee had absolutely nothing to do with l-cancelling and neither did 99.9% of other tech. Now you're using "keeping the engine untouched so future discoveries can be made" card, but in order for that card to work, you're going to have to show me tech that were only capable of being found due l-cancelling.

It doesn't necessarily has to be a tech, because of lcancal capfalcon or snake can air-combo with their NAir that always produdcelag-landing when you shothop even without fastfalling. i know that is the main offensive purpose of lcancel but we don't simply know anything about pm engine, all is just speculation.
and forgive me i can find your former question that is shoudl answer but i am still looking for, even if i still don't know why people that looking at lcancel as a bad thing don't try to play without it instead of trying to put it everywhere with the auto option.

 

[DahremRuhar]

you can't reasonably expect to actually convince people like that of anything because that would involve expecting them to care about how someone other than themselves actually feels for once in their life

there's nothing I can do or say to convince anybody of an idea contrary to one that they've intrinsically tied to their self-esteem, and I'm not gonna pretend like that's anything but straight-up idiocy

Huh. This is an interesting juxtaposition.


Anyway doublepost and all but this is so funny that I thought it merited its own post. Sue/hang/warn/infract me.

 

[Ningildo]

You are litellary speaking like there is no way to make a single thing in the game without lcancel however i have even see ppmd playing with marth without lcancel in melee, only relying on fast fall to spedd up his air-combo.
And You are completly wrong about the purpose of lcancel!
that is the exact moment where everything auto-l-cancel pros sound like ideologist to me.
lcancel is an extra, a plus, something to help people - that choose by theirselves to jump, to do an arial and to do their arial the way it will still be active while landing- to reduce their landing lag.
if it is so important and present in the competitive and and advance game, it is because of the way people play not because of the game itself.

Because some characters have to FH in order to not land with the animation (and even then, some FFers can't even do that)? And that FH just to avoid landing with an aerial's animation loses you stocks and games as it puts you above characters? Some of those characters literally can't land without being in the middle of an aerial unless they choose not do an aerial in the first place. So what choice do they have then?

It doesn't necessarily has to be a tech, because of lcancal capfalcon or snake can air-combo with their NAir that always produdcelag-landing when you shothop even without fastfalling. i know that is the main offensive purpose of lcancel but we don't simply know anything about pm engine, all is just speculation.
and forgive me i can find your former question that is shoudl answer but i am still looking for, even if i still don't know why people that looking at lcancel as a bad thing don't try to play without it instead of trying to put it everywhere with the auto option.

I think no one would mind lag animations being adjusted to have the same amount of lag as l-cancelled and removing l-cancelling entirely, as it's effect on gameplay would be the exact same as auto l-cancelling at the top level, which is to say none.

Also, I hope I'm reading this wrong, but you seem to think auto l-cancel puts l-cancelling...on every move? It just makes l-cancels happen automatically, that's it.

Now I want you to answer the following, just like you promised:

The better question, though, is if l-cancelling is such a deep and meaningful mechanic as you claim it is, why is it only in the earlier Smash games and nowhere else, not even in other fighting games, in a similar function? If you're going to say "well, the devs for those games don't know REAL deep and meaningful mechanics", I'm going to remind you that that is both a logical fallacy and an inability to recognize that when nearly everyone else doesn't see something the way you do, you might be wrong on at least a few points. That is, of course, if you're going to say that in response. But I'm sure that if your view on the mechanic is right, you'd be able to show me why it wouldn't be able to work in other games with sound reasoning.

 

[JOE!]

4tlas : would you ever consider maybe doing an experimental SG on a random week with ALC?

 

[Darth Shard]

The position that confuses me is the idea that people against ALC would be unwilling to attend tournaments with it on. If they are such skilled players, surely a trial run of having ALC on isn't likely to significantly skew results. If in your mind the type of player that would benefit from ALC is someone who is inconsistent with MLC, they likely have other shortcomings in their play and I don't expect to see these lower-level players making grandiose upsets just because ALC is now enabled. Additionally, I would expect most people who are used to MLC to continue to do so even if ALC is enabled. I guess I just have trouble putting myself in the mindset of someone against ALC. I can appreciate certain players wanting to feel that the time they invested in learning to l-cancel was meaningful, but I think that is a selfish reason to not even be willing to give the alternative a try.

If someone who is anti-ALC is so offended by a tournament running ALC as to not want to go, I also question their confidence in their own abilities and wonder if they are a player who gets by only with superior tech skill rather than someone who is intimately familiar with the deeper mental elements of the meta. One of my gripes with Melee is that it is a technically demanding and unforgiving game. I don't feel like I have the time to invest to make up all the ground between myself and the best in the world. With PM, almost all of those same techniques are there, and admittedly some of them are easier to perform from a execution standpoint, but is that really a bad thing? Do we not want to empower our players to be able to master the techniques available in Project M? I feel that what ALC brings to the PM meta is empowerment to our players. I believe that each set should be determined by the knowledge of each competitor and their ability to implement their practiced techniques and strategies the most effectively. The execution is already difficult to learn for a beginner, and much harder to correctly use in a match. It takes months if not years in order to rise to become the best player in your region, to say nothing of the world. Let's not allow any other artificial skill barriers to stand between new players and elite ones, especially in Project M, a game that can never be esports and as such can never afford to pay its top players, which means they will still need to maintain real lives with real employment and as such limited practice time.

 

[Bleck]

I probably wouldn't have said half the **** I said if I hadn't seen what an arrogant, self-important dingus you conduct yourself like

"I wouldn't have been an asshole about it if you weren't being an asshole about it!"

so now we've got "everyone thinks it so it must be right" and "you started it" from you, are there any other schoolyard antics you'd like to present

 

[4tlas]

the type of person he is based on the whole "anyone who doesn't like l-canceling must be bad at the game" thing belongs to a group of people that I already identified earlier in the thread in this post



you can replace "Vigilante" with "DahremRuhar" and it's basically the same idea; everyone will call me out for being condescending to people who think positively about l-canceling, but this very thread is full of consistent examples of people only arguing in favor of l-canceling so that they can be condescending to other people

you can't reasonably expect to actually convince people like that of anything because that would involve expecting them to care about how someone other than themselves actually feels for once in their life

I've been calling out everyone who's being condescending. And I cannot possibly fathom why people so staunchly support MLC and are so against ALC, which is why talking to them helps me identify why. No matter how certain I am that I know such people through and through, I know that I can be surprised or find new insight I didn't have before.

And I say again, if you are SO certain that they cannot be convinced of anything because you think they are stubborn and self-centered, then don't post. There's no point in it. It just damages your own position.

This is an important point!
You two are telling me "Who even advocated that aerials being done in a way that forces you to l-cancel was the entire game?" and "I'm not sure what doing it all the time has to do with it though."
read this please:

You are litellary speaking like there is no way to make a single thing in the game without lcancel however i have even see ppmd playing with marth without lcancel in melee, only relying on fast fall to spedd up his air-combo.
And You are completly wrong about the purpose of lcancel!
that is the exact moment where everything auto-l-cancel pros sound like ideologist to me.
lcancel is an extra, a plus, something to help people - that choose by theirselves to jump, to do an arial and to do their arial the way it will still be active while landing- to reduce their landing lag.
if it is so important and present in the competitive and and advance game, it is because of the way people play not because of the game itself.


you should noticed that there is a clear issue: at last, is lcancel a skill or not?
And i don't understand you very well because lcanceling clearly result in a rewards!
and saying it doesn't justify its present would means You are thinkig from an unique point of view :strategy.
- Or it will means you don't find the lcancel that skillfull to perform which depends on players.
- Or it will means you feel that it its a random input that has to be press everytime and that is only because of the way you play, or the experience you have of melee's meta but here is pm or your main.



It doesn't necessarily has to be a tech, because of lcancal capfalcon or snake can air-combo with their NAir that always produdcelag-landing when you shothop even without fastfalling. i know that is the main offensive purpose of lcancel but we don't simply know anything about pm engine, all is just speculation.
and forgive me i can find your former question that is shoudl answer but i am still looking for, even if i still don't know why people that looking at lcancel as a bad thing don't try to play without it instead of trying to put it everywhere with the auto option.

I'm sorry, I think I failed to understand what you were going for here. Care to try wording it differently?

4tlas : would you ever consider maybe doing an experimental SG on a random week with ALC?

Absolutely not, if you actually mean "random week". I would definitely need to inform people beforehand and poll the players.

I doubt I could replace a normal PM or Melee bracket with it, and I certainly don't have the time/energy to run 3 simultaneous cross-registered brackets. If people say they're willing, I would have to replace PM or Melee for a week, yeah.

The position that confuses me is the idea that people against ALC would be unwilling to attend tournaments with it on. If they are such skilled players, surely a trial run of having ALC on isn't likely to significantly skew results. If in your mind the type of player that would benefit from ALC is someone who is inconsistent with MLC, they likely have other shortcomings in their play and I don't expect to see these lower-level players making grandiose upsets just because ALC is now enabled. Additionally, I would expect most people who are used to MLC to continue to do so even if ALC is enabled. I guess I just have trouble putting myself in the mindset of someone against ALC. I can appreciate certain players wanting to feel that the time they invested in learning to l-cancel was meaningful, but I think that is a selfish reason to not even be willing to give the alternative a try.

If someone who is anti-ALC is so offended by a tournament running ALC as to not want to go, I also question their confidence in their own abilities and wonder if they are a player who gets by only with superior tech skill rather than someone who is intimately familiar with the deeper mental elements of the meta. One of my gripes with Melee is that it is a technically demanding and unforgiving game. I don't feel like I have the time to invest to make up all the ground between myself and the best in the world. With PM, almost all of those same techniques are there, and admittedly some of them are easier to perform from a execution standpoint, but is that really a bad thing? Do we not want to empower our players to be able to master the techniques available in Project M? I feel that what ALC brings to the PM meta is empowerment to our players. I believe that each set should be determined by the knowledge of each competitor and their ability to implement their practiced techniques and strategies the most effectively. The execution is already difficult to learn for a beginner, and much harder to correctly use in a match. It takes months if not years in order to rise to become the best player in your region, to say nothing of the world. Let's not allow any other artificial skill barriers to stand between new players and elite ones, especially in Project M, a game that can never be esports and as such can never afford to pay its top players, which means they will still need to maintain real lives with real employment and as such limited practice time.

Have you ever switched to Melee and found that, because the input windows are unforgiving, you miss things you got all the time in PM? Then once you get used to it and switch back to PM, you're missing some opportunities that you only had because of the lenient technical requirements?

Switching between ALC and MLC would probably cause something similar. Players coming from Melee or MLC might become less tight or consistent with their L-cancel timing because the game doesn't offer any feedback to say "hey you missed one, fix it before you get used to it". Players switching from ALC to MLC or Melee would clearly have less practice L-cancelling in tournament matches.

As I said, most current players would either not care about this risk (and thus play both) or would try to avoid it. I don't know many people who would feel it violated the values of the game, and I agree that I would find such an attitude preposterous.

 

[Darth Shard]

Have you ever switched to Melee and found that, because the input windows are unforgiving, you miss things you got all the time in PM? Then once you get used to it and switch back to PM, you're missing some opportunities that you only had because of the lenient technical requirements?

Switching between ALC and MLC would probably cause something similar. Players coming from Melee or MLC might become less tight or consistent with their L-cancel timing because the game doesn't offer any feedback to say "hey you missed one, fix it before you get used to it". Players switching from ALC to MLC or Melee would clearly have less practice L-cancelling in tournament matches.

As I said, most current players would either not care about this risk (and thus play both) or would try to avoid it. I don't know many people who would feel it violated the values of the game, and I agree that I would find such an attitude preposterous.

I recurring experience this issue. I won't lie to you, my drive to improve in Melee has lessened because of the difficulty of switching, although probably moreso because I really want to break through to the next level in PM.

In this situation, I definitely sympathize with the experience of the player trying to play both Melee and PM. However, time and time again we as a community have come to arms about changing things from Melee, but that doesn't mean the changes weren't good for the metagame (see: 3.5 Fox nerfs). I guess I don't believe we should be "catering" (please notice my use of quotes to convey hyperbole) to Melee players or acknowledging any kind of preexisting dogma. PM needs to have its own meta separate from Melee. We can learn and take inspiration from that community as oftentimes their rules will be relevant to our game, but I think we have to look at PM in a bubble as well, and not assume that something coming from Melee has an inherently positive value to the meta.

I guess I just really question whether or not this rule would "fracture the community," as I truly believe that the PM community in 2016 is primarily supported by players who primarily play Project M and want to see it become something different from Melee. When we bow to dogma, we weaken our credibility and identity as a unique scene. What I have always loved about Project M as a community-created game is our right to question the powers that be and to see real meaningful change implemented across patches. Certainly there are still those who prefer the 3.02 meta, but I also think if you asked most PM players today, they'd say that the 3.6 meta is much much healthier, which is a great example of how our community adapts and thrives under these modifications.

I realize now that I didn't really address the issue of some regions running ALC and some not. I guess individual regions and players would be responsible for learning to l-cancel if they traveled out of state, but I don't see any other way to find out whether or not ALC works except for to actually give it a go and see what happens!

 

[xquqx]

Have you ever switched to Melee and found that, because the input windows are unforgiving, you miss things you got all the time in PM? Then once you get used to it and switch back to PM, you're missing some opportunities that you only had because of the lenient technical requirements?

Switching between ALC and MLC would probably cause something similar. Players coming from Melee or MLC might become less tight or consistent with their L-cancel timing because the game doesn't offer any feedback to say "hey you missed one, fix it before you get used to it". Players switching from ALC to MLC or Melee would clearly have less practice L-cancelling in tournament matches.

Well this theoretically isn't true. Even with ALC on, the white L cancel light only flashes on proper L cancel, and you still get the L cancel % at the end based on how much you ACTUALLY L canceled. So players would be able to do all the normal L cancelling while still being told whether they were doing it or not as before, there just wouldn't be a penalty for missing. So it wouldn't be an issue for players that care about maintaining their L cancelling. It would be an issue for players who got used to playing with ALC and didn't really care about L cancelling, but those players were always going to have issues with MLC.

 

[4tlas]

I recurring experience this issue. I won't lie to you, my drive to improve in Melee has lessened because of the difficulty of switching, although probably moreso because I really want to break through to the next level in PM.

In this situation, I definitely sympathize with the experience of the player trying to play both Melee and PM. However, time and time again we as a community have come to arms about changing things from Melee, but that doesn't mean the changes weren't good for the metagame (see: 3.5 Fox nerfs). I guess I don't believe we should be "catering" (please notice my use of quotes to convey hyperbole) to Melee players or acknowledging any kind of preexisting dogma. PM needs to have its own meta separate from Melee. We can learn and take inspiration from that community as oftentimes their rules will be relevant to our game, but I think we have to look at PM in a bubble as well, and not assume that something coming from Melee has an inherently positive value to the meta.

I guess I just really question whether or not this rule would "fracture the community," as I truly believe that the PM community in 2016 is primarily supported by players who primarily play Project M and want to see it become something different from Melee. When we bow to dogma, we weaken our credibility and identity as a unique scene. What I have always loved about Project M as a community-created game is our right to question the powers that be and to see real meaningful change implemented across patches. Certainly there are still those who prefer the 3.02 meta, but I also think if you asked most PM players today, they'd say that the 3.6 meta is much much healthier, which is a great example of how our community adapts and thrives under these modifications.

I realize now that I didn't really address the issue of some regions running ALC and some not. I guess individual regions and players would be responsible for learning to l-cancel if they traveled out of state, but I don't see any other way to find out whether or not ALC works except for to actually give it a go and see what happens!

Oh I 100% agree about everything you said, but the practicality issue of people switching back and forth isn't addressed.

Well this theoretically isn't true. Even with ALC on, the white L cancel light only flashes on proper L cancel, and you still get the L cancel % at the end based on how much you ACTUALLY L canceled. So players would be able to do all the normal L cancelling while still being told whether they were doing it or not as before, there just wouldn't be a penalty for missing. So it wouldn't be an issue for players that care about maintaining their L cancelling. It would be an issue for players who got used to playing with ALC and didn't really care about L cancelling, but those players were always going to have issues with MLC.

I'm like 99% sure this is wrong. When the Auto L-cancel came out someone went around at our tournament turning it on to test it and failed to turn it off. It was only caught because everyone had a suspicious 100% success rate in the victory screen over and over, so they checked the settings. Also they said it flashed every single time.

 

[JOE!]

I'm like 99% sure this is wrong. When the Auto L-cancel came out someone went around at our tournament turning it on to test it and failed to turn it off. It was only caught because everyone had a suspicious 100% success rate in the victory screen over and over, so they checked the settings. Also they said it flashed every single time.

Just saying, I like how they only noticed after the fact still lol

 

[4tlas]

Just saying, I like how they only noticed after the fact still lol

I used to bring that up as a point against MLC, but then I decided it was anecdotal enough that I would only bring it up if someone said "its unplayably bad" or something. In this case, the anecdotal evidence is enough to disprove the other statement, so I mentioned it.

 

[xquqx]

It used to be like that in 3.6b, but as of 3.6 proper it's exactly how I described. I'm sure if that situation happened again literally no one would notice unless they happened to be checking the settings.

 

[4tlas]

It used to be like that in 3.6b, but as of 3.6 proper it's exactly how I described. I'm sure if that situation happened again literally no one would notice unless they happened to be checking the settings.

Ah yes it was 3.6b. I'll check that out, thanks. That makes a very big difference imo.

 

[wiiztec]

IPlayers coming from Melee or MLC might become less tight or consistent with their L-cancel timing because the game doesn't offer any feedback to say "hey you missed one, fix it before you get used to it".

Actually there is feedback, if you miss a manual L cancel in auto you don't get the flash.

EDIT: yeah so you already know that now I guess, I neglected to read the posts after yours before replying

 

[4tlas]

Actually there is feedback, if you miss a manual L cancel in auto you don't get the flash.

EDIT: yeah so you already know that now I guess, I neglected to read the posts after yours before replying

Thanks for clarifying anyway! When did you change that? Beta or 3.6?

 

[masterpad]

BLES-01517

The better question, though, is if l-cancelling is such a deep and meaningful mechanic as you claim it is, why is it only in the earlier Smash games and nowhere else, not even in other fighting games, in a similar function? If you're going to say "well, the devs for those games don't know REAL deep and meaningful mechanics", I'm going to remind you that that is both a logical fallacy and an inability to recognize that when nearly everyone else doesn't see something the way you do, you might be wrong on at least a few points. That is, of course, if you're going to say that in response. But I'm sure that if your view on the mechanic is right, you'd be able to show me why it wouldn't be able to work in other games with sound reasoning.

It is not relevant to find the exact function in other fighting games, percentage instead of life jauge can't be found in others game bu it is a great thing.
the very thruth is, lcancel is a wonderful mechanism but it is incomplete because there is no loosing frame and advanced players think and play the same way.
An input to perform within a window frame for a reward is such a common thing in fighting games even without a strategic parameters.
The main point is when players get used to it its start to be very easy for most of them and since most of top-tiers character rely on SHFFLing, those players find theirselves hiting this button everytimes and now look at it as a pointless and boring thing.
But it is all because of player's choice, theirs choice to SHFFL all the time or using character that need to shuffl all the times. Not because of an input that is only here to provide you less landing-lag AFTER you choose to do an arial as it will still be active while landing.
I understand very well that the input requires skill in a way that is not common to others tech in the game but it is not a big deal.
Most of poeple are just applying a melee-like logic on pm's meta game but they don't know anything.Now the pandora box is onpen with the autolcancel option avalaible, i just wait and see....

 

[wiiztec]

Thanks for clarifying anyway! When did you change that? Beta or 3.6?

3.6

 

[Jar Jar Binks Sith Lord]

I had to play whack a mole with a terrifying force of captcha, required fields, email confirmations only to deal with my i5 and GTX-960 meeting their match at the hands of a laggy textbox script as it struggles for dear life to keep up with my typing speed. Is this how it ends? To add insult to injury the board wants me to pay money so I can suffer through the modernization of this revolting board code. I had a throwaway account in 2006, I remember it working way better than this...

So I'll cut to the chase. I play other fighting games reasonably ok. My SO dabbles in Melee and PM tournaments to a not so great level, tears it up at anime and regularly top 8s his local EC scene at other games. He labs up many fighting games and has immensely sound execution. Being sane, he concurs that L-Cancel is a forced non-choice and only people who skip showers like it. I admit we're both meh at Smash.

I can butt heads with him on fightcade, where in Alpha 2 he's able to blow through my fireballs with a very difficult lv 3 custom combo and wipe off 70% of my health lickity spit: I weathered the frustration of playing catch up and things are in my favour after many hours training. I can now do the same back to him and those ft5s I sometimes fell just one match short of are closer every time. When you activate it close to an opponent it does this thing called CC blowout and the name sounds like someone having a diarrhea, not laughing at it is the hardest part of playing.

So in a manner of speaking I'm chill with execution in games. It's a cool game but I disliked Rising Thunder: one German friend I met on a garbage Marvel ripoff who's insanely good at it (sauce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-320SjBpmdw Thai.) likes the idea of execution barriers being lowered in many games. He wrestles with Filipino Champ for the top 1 RT spot on/off routinely, even. He also dabbled in Smash 64 online on Kaillera and apparently hit top 8 for European players within a short space of time, a game which he amended was super execution heavy when I brought it up as being a good example of simplified inputs.

It never phased him, but I was compelled to argue it's case: a game where you can do SPDs with one button wouldn't be the same game or more focused on actual decisions. Input management and how well you can execute under pressure are momentously important staples of the genre, to me. Your stick or analogue isn't necessarily always at neutral: hitting out say a Dragon Punch from a blocking state is inherently more cumbersome than walking forward first and if you aren't snappy your inputs get jumbled. As someone who many players seem to be arguing for I can't say I've ever met someone as decent at fgs as I am who has the appalling dexterity I do: it's a bit like having swine flu in a world where everyone thinks it's an epidemic, yet only you validate that claim.

I'm a staunch support of difficult things like wavedashing and love seeing character specific techs with steep requirements pulled off, like Samus S. Wavedash. In a world without L cancel you could hold your own with shff aerials, good DI and smart techchases, wavedash is optional albeit very useful. And certain players would have their own unique abilities. his thread is rife with eye catching examples of non L cancelled outcomes affecting the game in favour of the failure and some good points about how shielded attacks make you amend the timing just a little, although it's countered by how you can option select by mashing to cover bases.

In the planning phase for some Smash games they could've even added more properties to lagged aerials like say AOE ground slams on some shff'ed dairs so it's way more of an actual decision but that's not the case and it'd probably be awkward. So anyway, as it is - L cancelling is an appalling example of a mechanic and an affront to anyone with intelligence. When mucking without much effort I've hit it 95% of the time and I suck @ buttons.

Mango fails it? I could lab and lab for hours to get it 100% of the time and all that'd mean is that I drilled that little bit more than Mango concerning that one little technique, testing it on powershielding adversaries till I get a method that always works. That is not freaking impressive. It's a literal grind I'd have to make second nature just so I can functionally control space and do whatever else I would. It's an insult to well thought out 'skill floors' to call it that so let's not: It's a *time* barrier. Anyone and I mean anyone could do it eventually.

Sp what's wrong with you all? It's fluff that derides an already tech heavy game that deserves to be loved for all it's difficulty without bs like this. As someone who plays it, that argument about luck in Pokemon being the same as L cancel was stammeringly insipid. There'd be an equivalent if Smogon's server randomly combusted the game and you lost, since we're talking non decisions that can get you killed: the luck they actually do leave in is decision based. Anything comparably ******** has been barred by sleep clause and appropriate move bans.

Omg. It's true that Smash footsies closely resemble two blind kids trying to high five each other in an open field but Smash neutral has still got loads of decision making and matchup shenigans even once you have the movement down. I can't imagine anyone who endorses the L cancel concept truly appreciating space control or matchup strats. And I mean, *endorses* the concept: even I agree that manual L cancel is better legislation for PM in it's present form, but to enjoy the actual idea of L cancel? 0/10.

As a lurker I just skim this thread to spot Bleck with my favourite character in his av make all these rational arguments and veer off into bouts of witty backhands when someone compares it to auto parry, says L cancel increases game speed, thinks it belongs in the game because it 'feels like Smash' or thinks their time practicing it makes it good. He's hilarious and you should listen to him. Having cancer and getting rid of it takes effort and patience: it doesn't mean it's great to have cancer in a game or that alleviating it takes great skill. But then I guess thanks to arguments like this one a ton of people are probably used to feeling what that's like and are ok with it.

You can like it, keep it to not split the userbase or offend those who've put man hours into it: fine. But don't say the mechanic has any salvageable value at all. It does not.

 

[JOE!]

I had to play whack a mole with a terrifying force of captcha, required fields, email confirmations only to deal with my i5 and GTX-960 meeting their match at the hands of a laggy textbox script as it struggles for dear life to keep up with my typing speed. Is this how it ends? To add insult to injury the board wants me to pay money so I can suffer through the modernization of this revolting board code. I had a throwaway account in 2006, I remember it working way better than this...

So I'll cut to the chase. I play other fighting games reasonably ok. My SO dabbles in Melee and PM tournaments to a not so great level, tears it up at anime and regularly top 8s his local EC scene at other games. He labs up many fighting games and has immensely sound execution. Being sane, he concurs that L-Cancel is a forced non-choice and only people who skip showers like it. I admit we're both meh at Smash.

I can butt heads with him on fightcade, where in Alpha 2 he's able to blow through my fireballs with a very difficult lv 3 custom combo and wipe off 70% of my health lickity spit: I weathered the frustration of playing catch up and things are in my favour after many hours training. I can now do the same back to him and those ft5s I sometimes fell just one match short of are closer every time. When you activate it close to an opponent it does this thing called CC blowout and the name sounds like someone having a diarrhea, not laughing at it is the hardest part of playing.

So in a manner of speaking I'm chill with execution in games. It's a cool game but I disliked Rising Thunder: one German friend I met on a garbage Marvel ripoff who's insanely good at it (sauce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-320SjBpmdw Thai.) likes the idea of execution barriers being lowered in many games. He wrestles with Filipino Champ for the top 1 RT spot on/off routinely, even. He also dabbled in Smash 64 online on Kaillera and apparently hit top 8 for European players within a short space of time, a game which he amended was super execution heavy when I brought it up as being a good example of simplified inputs.

It never phased him, but I was compelled to argue it's case: a game where you can do SPDs with one button wouldn't be the same game or more focused on actual decisions. Input management and how well you can execute under pressure are momentously important staples of the genre, to me. Your stick or analogue isn't necessarily always at neutral: hitting out say a Dragon Punch from a blocking state is inherently more cumbersome than walking forward first and if you aren't snappy your inputs get jumbled. As someone who many players seem to be arguing for I can't say I've ever met someone as decent at fgs as I am who has the appalling dexterity I do: it's a bit like having swine flu in a world where everyone thinks it's an epidemic, yet only you validate that claim.

I'm a staunch support of difficult things like wavedashing and love seeing character specific techs with steep requirements pulled off, like Samus S. Wavedash. In a world without L cancel you could hold your own with shff aerials, good DI and smart techchases, wavedash is optional albeit very useful. And certain players would have their own unique abilities. his thread is rife with eye catching examples of non L cancelled outcomes affecting the game in favour of the failure and some good points about how shielded attacks make you amend the timing just a little, although it's countered by how you can option select by mashing to cover bases.

In the planning phase for some Smash games they could've even added more properties to lagged aerials like say AOE ground slams on some shff'ed dairs so it's way more of an actual decision but that's not the case and it'd probably be awkward. So anyway, as it is - L cancelling is an appalling example of a mechanic and an affront to anyone with intelligence. When mucking without much effort I've hit it 95% of the time and I suck @ buttons.

Mango fails it? I could lab and lab for hours to get it 100% of the time and all that'd mean is that I drilled that little bit more than Mango concerning that one little technique, testing it on powershielding adversaries till I get a method that always works. That is not freaking impressive. It's a literal grind I'd have to make second nature just so I can functionally control space and do whatever else I would. It's an insult to well thought out 'skill floors' to call it that so let's not: It's a *time* barrier. Anyone and I mean anyone could do it eventually.

Sp what's wrong with you all? It's fluff that derides an already tech heavy game that deserves to be loved for all it's difficulty without bs like this. As someone who plays it, that argument about luck in Pokemon being the same as L cancel was stammeringly insipid. There'd be an equivalent if Smogon's server randomly combusted the game and you lost, since we're talking non decisions that can get you killed: the luck they actually do leave in is decision based. Anything comparably ******** has been barred by sleep clause and appropriate move bans.

Omg. It's true that Smash footsies closely resemble two blind kids trying to high five each other in an open field but Smash neutral has still got loads of decision making and matchup shenigans even once you have the movement down. I can't imagine anyone who endorses the L cancel concept truly appreciating space control or matchup strats. And I mean, *endorses* the concept: even I agree that manual L cancel is better legislation for PM in it's present form, but to enjoy the actual idea of L cancel? 0/10.

As a lurker I just skim this thread to spot Bleck with my favourite character in his av make all these rational arguments and veer off into bouts of witty backhands when someone compares it to auto parry, says L cancel increases game speed, thinks it belongs in the game because it 'feels like Smash' or thinks their time practicing it makes it good. He's hilarious and you should listen to him. Having cancer and getting rid of it takes effort and patience: it doesn't mean it's great to have cancer in a game or that alleviating it takes great skill. But then I guess thanks to arguments like this one a ton of people are probably used to feeling what that's like and are ok with it.

You can like it, keep it to not split the userbase or offend those who've put man hours into it: fine. But don't say the mechanic has any salvageable value at all. It does not.

I liked this and unliked it just so I could like it a second time

 

[4tlas]

In a world without L cancel you could hold your own with shff aerials, good DI and smart techchases, wavedash is optional albeit very useful

To be perfectly fair, this is possible already. Best player in the world level? Doubt it. But you can ALWAYS play smarter.