If Smash debuted this year, what would be your roster of 12?

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If it was this year that smash debut...

Obviously, some of Nintendo's biggest names that have stayed around for decades

:ultmario::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultdk::ultpikachu::ultlink::ultkirby:

Placing :ultinkling: in to take Fox's spot as part of the original 8 since its Nintendo's biggest recent ip

Hidden fighters:

:ultshulk::ultvillager: :ultolimar::ultwario:

I gave thought to Springman but personally, I don't think ARMS was popular enough to put him in there above other characters, so I'd put him in the category of scrapped character like :ultbowser::ultkingdedede: and :ultmewtwo: in smash 64.





notes: Tried to put aside my personal feelings for each character and tried to make a roster that the kids of today would eat up if there was never a smash series. Also trying to think about how a Nintendo without a smash bros series would have developed.

:ultfox: 's series, I feel, is a bit shaky and most of his popularity these days is arguably from the Smash bros series. I'm leaving out :ultpit: since I feel like it was Smash Bros brawl that brought his series back from the grave. Also leaving out :ultmarth: since we will never know if FE would have made its way to the west or even still be relevant today without Melee.
 
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Yoshi_smash

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People have different opinions. To be honest, there's not much else to be said about this other than the fact that this entire thread is subjective and that not everything revolves around you and/or Yoshi.
Unless you're being ironic, it's because in 2019 the Yoshi series simply isn't as relevant as it was anymore, as evidenced by it's slow amount of releases compared to other series.
I'd argue that a character's history and significance overall should be considered. "Core" characters that shouldn't be excluded include Mario, Yoshi, Pikachu, and Kirby. Plus, the Yoshi series is still relevant in 2019 with the release of Yoshi's Crafted World.

I realize that each person has their own opinion, but it is noticeable (and disappointing) that 50 people in this thread think Yoshi should be excluded from the starting roster.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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I'd argue that a character's history and significance overall should be considered. "Core" characters that shouldn't be excluded include Mario, Yoshi, Pikachu, and Kirby. Plus, the Yoshi series is still relevant in 2019 with the release of Yoshi's Crafted World.

I realize that each person has their own opinion, but it is noticeable (and disappointing) that 50 people in this thread think Yoshi should be excluded from the starting roster.
What defines a "Core" character then, because your list seems to exclude :ultdk::ultlink::ultfox::ultsamus: or any Fire Emblem character.

Sure, Yoshi got a game this year, but compared to how many games other series have been getting it should be understandable that not everyone would be inclined to include Yoshi in a roster of 12 characters of this era.
 
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I realize that each person has their own opinion, but it is noticeable (and disappointing) that 50 people in this thread think Yoshi should be excluded from the starting roster.
You clearly didn't read the post if you genuinely believe what you said to be an objective statement. It's not disappointing that Yoshi isn't in a good chunk of rosters. They all believe that there is a reasonable argument to be made for his exclusion of a roster of 12, so they all omitted him. I can count how many characters objectively deserve a spot in a roster of twelve on zero fingers.

I think it's just dumb to claim any single character should objectively get a spot in a roster of any size. The only argument anyone could make about a character objectively deserving a spot is if the roster has enough slots to use every single Nintendo character ever conceived, and everyone in this thread knows it's both unrealistic and unnecessary especially when half of them would be clones and semiclones of other characters and alternate skins already exist.
 
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Zinith

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You clearly didn't read the post if you genuinely believe what you said to be an objective statement. It's not disappointing that Yoshi isn't in a good chunk of rosters. They all believe that there is a reasonable argument to be made for his exclusion of a roster of 12, so they all omitted him. I can count how many characters objectively deserve a spot in a roster of twelve on zero fingers.

I think it's just dumb to claim any single character should objectively get a spot in a roster of any size. The only argument anyone could make about a character objectively deserving a spot is if the roster has enough slots to use every single Nintendo character ever conceived, and everyone in this thread knows it's both unrealistic and unnecessary especially when half of them would be clones and semiclones of other characters and alternate skins already exist.
Claiming "subjectivity" can only get you so far though. It all depends on the person's standard for who makes the list. If their standard is "the lead characters/mascots of vg franchises over 50 million units sold regardless of 1st/3rd party designation" then Yoshi's gonna have a tough time making the cut. But if it's "Lead characters who have near universal recognition" THEN the exclusion of Yoshi is gonna raise an eyebrow from. Subjective arguments are still arguments and they're bound by the same need for consistency as objective ones do.
 

Rhus

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The metrics in which people use to determine the O12 roster in this thread are their own.

When you are dealing with a discussion like this, the suitable stats do not exist to make a relatively objective and quantifiable decision. For many people, it boils down to diverse representation, which is why Yoshi is not included in many rosters because of the substantial overlap with the Mario series.
 

Yoshi_smash

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The metrics in which people use to determine the O12 roster in this thread are their own.

When you are dealing with a discussion like this, the suitable stats do not exist to make a relatively objective and quantifiable decision. For many people, it boils down to diverse representation, which is why Yoshi is not included in many rosters because of the substantial overlap with the Mario series.
I've noticed though that some of the rosters that exclude Yoshi include both Mario and Luigi. If diverse representation is why Yoshi is not in their roster, then why are both Mario and Luigi in their roster? (i.e. both Mario and Luigi are from the Mario series). Some people that chose to exclude Yoshi from their roster also include both Mario and Bowser (both from the same franchise / series). So I don't really think diverse representation is the reason many are excluding Yoshi (at least, in some cases).

Also, technically Yoshi is no longer part of the Mario franchise (he is part of his own franchise) -- which is why "Yoshi's Story" music plays when he wins a match in Smash 4 and Ultimate.

Except the problem is that "recognition" is not a measurable quantity unless you survey every person on the planet and ask them if they recognize Yoshi.
One does not have to go to every person and ask them is they recognize a character. It is common knowledge that certain characters such as Mario, Yoshi and Pikachu are more recognizable (globally) than characters such as Wii Fit Trainer.
 
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Rhus

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I've noticed though that some of the rosters that exclude Yoshi include both Mario and Luigi. If diverse representation is why Yoshi is not in their roster, then why are both Mario and Luigi in their roster? (i.e. both Mario and Luigi are from the Mario series). Some people that chose to exclude Yoshi from their roster also include both Mario and Bowser (both from the same franchise / series). So I don't really think diverse representation is the reason many are excluding Yoshi (at least, in some cases).

Also, technically Yoshi is no longer part of the Mario franchise (he is part of his own franchise) -- which is why "Yoshi's Story" music plays when he wins a match in Smash 4 and Ultimate.
Mario and Luigi are the iconic brothers of the Mario bros. series. People include them for that reason.

Many people are aware in technicality that Yoshi "has his own franchise", that franchise borrows very very heavily from the Mario universe, and occurs in the same world. Yoshi has not differentiated itself to the level of Donkey Kong, and has substantial overlap with Mario Bros in general.

Victory themes are also not terribly relevant as characters like Meta Knight, Bowser and Piranha plant, Robin and Lucina, and Ridley all have different victory themes than the rest of their series' representatives. I understand that Yoshi has an independent icon, but both Yoshi and Wario are so heavily associated with Mario that neither has received a new representative yet with their icon.
Regardless, it is up to those people whether or not they want to exclude Yoshi from their roster. I would never dream of excluding :ultfox: from the roster, but I can understand why people might not deem his current status as good enough for the O12.
 

Grie

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Let’s say every franchise as the same status and timeline of event as normal ex, ki uprising still exist, only with smash not existing until now and it’s impact and each franchise ex, mother and f zero are even more cult classics than before.

:ultmario: Self explanatory
:ultdk: As a different enough identity to be separate from Mario
:ultlink: Self explanatory
:ultsamus: It’s still a big part in nintendo’s pantheon of franchises even with recent absence
:ultyoshi: Same as DK, as a different enough identity that making him separate from Mario dosen’t look too strange
:ultkirby: Self explanatory
:ultfox: Same as Samus, still a iconic franchise even with I’m not being present to much
:ultpikachu:Self explanatory
:ultluigi: Having Mario without Luigi seems strange in a game like this
:ultinkling: Definition of a recent nintendo franchise becoming an important ip to the brand, deserves the spot
:ultpit: Because uprising still exists, it would just be a Sakurai thing to put I’m in
:ultlucina: In a modern setting she fits the best for representing the franchise
 

Mogisthelioma

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I've noticed though that some of the rosters that exclude Yoshi include both Mario and Luigi. If diverse representation is why Yoshi is not in their roster, then why are both Mario and Luigi in their roster?
Ok. You yourself stated that we don't need to ask everyone, and I reckon that you wouldn't need to ask anyone if they recognize the Mario Bros. over Yoshi. They're clearly more famous and recognizable in 2019 than Yoshi is, or they decide based on their own metric. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
 

Zinith

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Ok. You yourself stated that we don't need to ask everyone, and I reckon that you wouldn't need to ask anyone if they recognize the Mario Bros. over Yoshi. They're clearly more famous and recognizable in 2019 than Yoshi is, or they decide based on their own metric. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
I'm sorry, but you don't get to me or the other user that Yoshi's recognition and popularity cannot be quantified and THEN tell us that the Mario Bros. are clearly more popular with the same amount of evidence. That's a double standard. Sure it's a reasonable inference, but the argument isn't about Yoshi having more recognition to be considered, it's that he has enough. The only thing I can give is purely anecdotal, as someone who wears a Yoshi hat everyday and I get called out for it by people of all ages and backgrounds.
 

Yoshi_smash

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Ok. You yourself stated that we don't need to ask everyone, and I reckon that you wouldn't need to ask anyone if they recognize the Mario Bros. over Yoshi. They're clearly more famous and recognizable in 2019 than Yoshi is, or they decide based on their own metric. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
The part that you quoted was about the "diversification" argument, not the recognition argument. Nonetheless, I'd argue that Yoshi is just as famous / recognizable as the Mario brothers, and certainly recognizable enough to be in a starting roster.

I responded to this quote:

For many people, it boils down to diverse representation, which is why Yoshi is not included in many rosters because of the substantial overlap with the Mario series.
In that quote, the argument was made that Yoshi is not included in people's rosters because he is too much of a Mario character, and therefore a redundant character. I explained that that argument doesn't make sense because people are choosing 2 or more Mario characters (such as Mario and Luigi, Mario and Bowser, or Mario and Peach) in their rosters, without including Yoshi. I also explained that Yoshi has his own franchise and identity that is separate from Mario.

Then, the following was said:

Mario and Luigi are the iconic brothers of the Mario bros. series. People include them for that reason.
In response to that, I'd argue that Yoshi is just as iconic as the Mario brothers. What makes any of those characters (Luigi, Bowser, or Peach) more worthy of inclusion in a roster than Yoshi?

Ultimately, it seems that people's roster choices are just personal opinion.
 
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Moptimus Prime

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Guys, people can make the roster how they want. You can criticize but don't take it too far. Chastising those for not having your preferred characters is taking it too far. Drop it already. There is no issue and never was.
 
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If we're hypothetically including updates....
Starters: :ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultvillager::ultinkling:
Unlockbles: :ultluigi::ultmewtwo::ultkingdedede::ultzelda:
DLC: :ultyoshi::ultfox::ultbowser::ultganondorf::ultmetaknight::ultpokemontrainer:
Alright, it's been a while, time to redo my list.
If Smash debuted in 2019, keeping recent and upcoming Switch releases in mind, I think this roster of 12 would be perfect:
Original 8:
:ultmario::ultpikachu::ultlink::ultkirby::ultsamus::ultdk::ultkingdedede::ultzelda::ultvillager::ultinkling:
-FE 3 Houses rep
-Sword and Shield rep

And if we can do DLC:
:ultganondorf::ultbowser::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultmewtwo::ultluigi::ultsonic:
 

LoZ00

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I feel like I should explain my choices:
:ultmario: as Mr. Video Game Himself, he is a must-have.
:ultluigi: basically is Player 2. Besides, having Mario and not Luigi sounds kind of wrong to me.
:ultpeach: like her or not, but Peach is, without any doubt, the most important female character in gaming history. I feel that she’s among the most recognizable gaming icons ever.
:ultbowser: is THE villain. He had to be in.
:ultlink: had to be in, because Zelda is, after Mario, Nintendo’s most famous franchise. Maybe he could use a more classic look?
:ultinkling: represents a modern franchise that has experienced a great success.
:ultkirby: is one of the most recognizable Nintendo characters.
:ultsamus: is Nintendo’s prime female heroine. Plus, Metroid is so popular that it gave the name to a gaming genre (I’ll admit that Metroidvania is a niche genre, but it’s still more noticeable than just “platform”)
:ultpikachu: represents Pokémon, the best selling franchise ever.
:ultlucina: represents Fire Emblem, a series that is experiencing an unexpected success even in the West. She was chosen over Marth due to the great success Awakening had.
:ultdk: is so iconic. He’s the very first popular Nintendo villain but has since grown into his own, unique series.
:ultisabelle: represents Animal Crossing, a franchise that has a big number of hardcore fans. AC has nothing to do with fighting games, which is great to me. Also, I chose Isabelle over Villager because I feel she’s more recognizable.


Runner-ups included:
:ultfox: his series is in a complete decline.
:ultpit: had no major release after Uprising and, with no major game in sight, may become (again) a dormant franchise.
:ultkingdedede: hard to justify a second Kirby rep. I know Mario has four, but they’re arguably the four most recognizable video game characters of all time.
:ultzelda: similar to His Majesty King Dedede
:ultyoshi: even if he represents his own series, Yoshi is immediately linked to Mario, so he would feel like a fifth Mario character.
:ultfalcon::ultjigglypuff::ultness: became not relevant
:ultcharizard::ultmewtwo::ultgreninja: I couldn’t fit a second Pokémon
:ultshulk: I couldn’t fit him in, even though he would represent JRPGs.


All in all, I prioritized recognizable and current fighters over more “classic” ones.
Finally, :ultluigi::ultbowser::ultlucina::ultdk: are unlockable characters.
 
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Keeshu

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Starters: :ultmario::ultpikachu::ultlink::ultinkling::ultvillager::ultshulk::ultmarth::ultkirby:
Unlockables: :ultdk::ultyoshi::ultmiifighters::ultsamus:

Of course if Smash didn't exist ever and if Fire Emblem didn't find another way to get popular then :ultfox: Fox can get in as well. If echoes are a thing, :ultwolf:Wolf (and maybe :ultfalco:Falco) would be there too.

Reasons for each character:
:ultmario:Mario is basically Mr. Nintendo! He just has to be in the game. There could be quite a few Mario echoes as well.:ultluigi: Luigi would be an alternate skin or echo, but it was tempting to make him his own character because of Luigi's Mansion.
:ultpikachu:Pokemon is insanely popular. Just look at what happened with the first few weeks of Pokemon Go. I've never seen that many people walking around in my town for that many weeks ever in my life. It's clear people love Pokemon, and Pikachu is the mascot for Pokemon. Pikachu is a must have.:ultpichu: While it makes sense to have Pichu or Raichu as an echo, I don't feel they are relevant or popular enough to be included at this time.
:ultlink:Nintendo was hyping up BOTW during Wii U and for the launch of Switch, dedicated a year of E3 just to BOTW, and it all payed off because it's praised by just about everyone and it's crazy popular. Even if BOTW didn't have the massive success it did, Zelda has always been a very popular Nintendo title. Link has to be in the game. If size/proportions wasn't a problem then the other two links could be echoes.
:ultinkling:Splatoon was one of the most popular games on the Wii U, and it helped sell the Switch (and the Switch online service). It's just a popular, successful series and it totally deserves to be in Smash. Octolings could be an echo too.
:ultvillager:Animal Crossing is just another crazy popular game that Nintendo has. Also fits with Nintendo trying to be all cute and family friendly. Isabelle and probably some other characters could be alternate skins/echoes as well.
:ultshulk:Everytime I hear about the Xenoblade games I hear that it's the best game that the person has ever played and I hear about it a lot. It's clear it's popular. Personally, if I had all the time in the world, I'd probably be one of those people too. However, just watching Chugga Conroy's playthrough where he cut out ALL the grinding and repeats battles, it still took forever to watch through a playthrough of Xenoblade. I loved the game though from what I saw though. Xenoblade is bigger and better I would assume, and I bet it'll just keep getting better and more popular overtime. Shulk deserves a spot. I don't know Xenoblade well enough to know if Shulk could have echoes... I mean I could imagine Dunban being an interesting take because he would have some sort of mechanic that would severely limit his Monado usage, but make up for it in other ways. Perhaps Xenoblade 2 might have a character that could be an echo as well.
:ultmarth:I don't know much about Fire Emblem other than it's crazy popular. I hear Marth is the most recurring character so that's why he's here. I'm sure we are all familiar with how Marth can have many echo fighters. I personally want to get into the game because the perma-death mechanic interests me. I like it when games make you get attached to your characters.
:ultkirby: I honestly have no idea how popular Kirby is compared to other Nintendo titles nowadays. Though the Kirby games seem popular enough still, and also go for that family friendly vibe as well. Helps that he's pretty unique and the gameplay in the newer games is pretty smash-like nowadays which could get more casual players to transition into kirby games (and thus other nintendo games once they know nintendo makes multiple nice game series), or kirby fans to transition into smash easier.


As for unlockables
:ultdk:Donkey Kong used to have a ton of great games, but nowadays you don't get a lot of DK games and the series doesn't seem as popular as it once was. Though they are still praised quite well, and some older gamers could appreciate seeing DK in the game. Also it's nice to have a heavy character. Perhaps Funky Kong could be an echo?
:ultyoshi: Yoshi has a few games recently that have been advertised a decent amount compared to other remaining unrepresented series. Also another family friendly character that is unique and somewhat popular.
:ultmiifighters:The Wii was a crazy outstanding success and the Miis would be good to remind people about the Wii days. Also it's good to have custom characters. I was thinking about Wii Fit Trainer earlier, but ultimately decided against WFT because Miis cover a wider selection of games and allow for people to have fun with making their own characters to get in smash.
:ultsamus: Metroid has a very strong fan base, and it seems Nintendo knows this because they have the guts to be fine with just showing a logo of Metroid Prime 4 and that'd be it, and that was very effective. They seem to be giving Metroid a bit more love in the recent years compared to other series in the honorable mentions. Dark Samus or some hunters could be possible echoes. Of course, Metroid Prime 2 ECHOES makes it tempting to just leave Dark Samus as an echo.

Honorable mentions:
:ultwario: Wario has a ton of games between Wario Land, Wario Ware, and other spin off games. They seem fun, however I never really hear about Wario stuff, but I feel like the Wario games (especially Wario Ware) would be crazy popular in Japan. Though I simply don't know enough if he deserves a spot.
:ultfox: Star Fox has been used to show off new features in consoles a few times and it's quite important. Unlike Game & Watch or R.O.B., Star Fox is actually somewhat popular. Not to the extent of the other juggernaughts of Nintendo, but enough for some people to want him in smash.
:ultolimar: Pikmin is definitely popular and unique, but I don't think it's popular enough or would generate enough interest in smash if Olimar got in.
Any other series I didn't mention just doesn't make enough games or doesn't seem to be popular enough to make enough hype if they got in smash.

As for who I would main out of these characters for those curious:
If they had the same gameplay as we do now, I'd probably have to pick :ultpikachu:Pikachu. Fighting a Pikachu main, picking up Pikachu for a short while, and I gotta say Pikachu kinda feels like Meta knight in some ways due to the similar speeds, ranges, and a bazillion other reasons.. Also Pokemon Let's Go giving me Pokemon Yellow Nostalgia recently. After that in order it would probably be :ultlink:Link, :ultsamus:Samus, :ultinkling:Inkling, then :ultkirby:Kirby. It would be hard to decide between those 5 characters though (Which is why I'd do 5 man squad strike!). Though :ultfox:Fox/:ultwolf:Wolf would probably be my main if he was in the game if Fire Emblem died and Luigi became an echo. So overall it'd be like :ultwolf::ultfox:>:ultpikachu:>:ultlink:>:ultsamus:>:ultinklingboy:>:ultkirby:

If they had new gameplay based on the games they are more like now:
I would strongly consider playing :ultkirby:Kirby because Kirby has gotten much much more agile and longer ranged with most of his moves in newer games, so it feels weird going back to smash where he feels like Kirby 64 Kirby that has a hard time moving around.
:ultsamus:Samus has been using melee attacks in her games now, so I feel they could make a moveset that feels more like the melee attacks in the games she's in (sadly I haven't played any of the games where she melees stuff though). I've always thought Samus looked really cool and I love the Metroid games, but her moveset always felt really strange to me (feels more natural to Dark Samus's character though ha ha).
:ultpikachu:Pikachu has had more moves added since Pikachu was added into smash and I feel if they made Pikachu from scratch it would be an entirely different character. Unfortunately I don't keep up with the games or anime as much as I'd like so I wouldn't know what this new Pikachu would turn into. Pikachu will always be speedy though, so still a good chance I'd play Pikachu.
:ultfox::ultwolf:Fox/Wolf do get out of their vehicles sometimes in their games. So if we didn't completely make up a moveset, I feel like they'd be very very fast zoners due to their many different types of projectiles and fast running speeds.
Then the other characters were just added to Ultimate so they wouldn't change. So I'd probably go :ultwolf::ultfox:>:ultkirby:>:ultsamus:>:ultpikachu:>:ultlink:>:ultinklingboy:

Gotta say, would be weird trying to main :ultfox:Fox again since he looked so awesome in 64 and Melee and he (along with Link+Samus to a lesser extent) was the main reason why I got into Smash (which led to me loving the rest of Nintendo). I just never got into him because of CPUs doing frame perfect attacks and perfect blocks, which makes it hard due to his short range compared to Marth/Link in Melee. Later games I just got distracted by all the new characters. His gameplay does feel perfect in Ultimate, just other characters feel perfect as well and I don't care enough about Fox/Wolf as characters compared to the characters I main or play more of by comparison with the roster we have in Ultimate. Too many good characters, not enough time!
 
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Ness
Lucas
Robin
Lucina
Mr. Game & Watch
Sonic
Pac-Man
Mario
Yoshi
King.K.Rool
Luigi
Banjo & Kazooie

That makes 12(13 if ya count kazooie)
 

volbound1700

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I am not sure what you mean by "my" roster but if Smash had debuted with just 12 people (I think we would have had more than 12 if it debuted today), we would likely have gotten the following (assuming Nintendo only which would be likely).

Mario
Link
Luigi
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Samus
Chrom
Villager
Star Fox
Yoshi
Charizard

This is a close guess. We would have gotten popular characters from major Nintendo franchises. I am assume FE is as big as it is today to get a rep. Then again Smash Melee introduced FE to the world so Chrom may not have been likely.
 

Mamboo07

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Hi guys i decided to do Melee next for my roster from above: (no clones this time, sorry for that)
Veterans
1.:ultmario:
2.:ultbanjokazooie:
3.:ultdk:
4.:ultlink:
5.:ultkirby:
6.:ultsamus:
7.:ultpikachu:
8.:ulticeclimbers:
9.:ultyoshi:
10.:ultkingdedede:
11.:ultwario:
12.:ultpit:
Newcomers
13.:ultdiddy:
14.:ultduckhunt:
15.:ultfalcon:
16.:ultbowser:
17.:ultfox:
18.:ultpalutena:
19.:ultness:
20. Poochy
21. Bandana Dee
22. Shake King (From Wario Land Shake It!)
23. Bio-Rex
24. Corviknight
25. Waluigi (Assist Trophy to Newcomer)
Might do Brawl soon.
 
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Silask20

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Why do people think starfox for gamecube wasnt a successful release? It is arguably one of the most successful fox games.

Infact adding krystal on top of fox would be a great release
 

Leoinu

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Why do people think starfox for gamecube wasnt a successful release? It is arguably one of the most successful fox games.

Infact adding krystal on top of fox would be a great release
Im curious to what you believe makes a game successful. Sales alone? It was a sequel of the most sold installment in the series, star fox 64. Yet it was a completely different game than what the series was known for. Willing to wager many of the sales were achieved via believing it’d be like previous titles. It certainly would make sense, the internet was still just picking up then so widely regarded ratings, reviews, etc were still rare (pun not intended lol) back then.

In reality Adventures was just average. Extremely mediocre even. And at the end of the day, completely forgettable or at the very least when its remembered, its mocked. That sort of happens when the original build of a game/film has an existing franchise skin slapped onto it.
 
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