If Smash debuted this year, what would be your roster of 12?

Opossum

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:ultmario:, :ultlink:, :ultdk:, :ultpikachu:, :ultsamus:, :ultfox:, :ultkirby:, :ultyoshi:, :ultluigi:, :ultbowser:, :ultpeach:, and :ultzelda: just like how it was intended originally for Smash 64. Of course I'm missing :ultkingdedede:, :ultmewtwo:, and :ultpit:who were planned as well, but I'm going off of importance in terms of what cut characters from 64 should get in first. I'm also missing :ultganondorf:, but :ultzelda: is clearly more important than him as she was intended to be in Smash 64 while :ultganondorf:was not. Of course, taking out time constraints Smash 64 would have had more fighters than 12. So there would probably be enough room for :ultkingdedede:, :ultmewtwo:, :ultpit:, and :ultganondorf: or other more important characters.



Somebody sure loves Kremlings. :)
There is no evidence pointing toward Zelda and Peach being planned for 64. The only confirmed dropped characters are Bowser, Dedede, Mewtwo, and Marth.
 

Arthur97

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Well, FE only accelerated in the west because of smash to begin with, and consequently if we're talking about smash only releasing this year I'm pretty sure FE wouldn't be very dominant at all.

Additionally - Fox is much more recognizable than any FE character due to his uniqueness. The Star Fox series has also been one of Nintendo's biggest legacies for a long time - it was at the peak of technological innovation for its first release, and really defined action/arcade games with 64. I will be the first to tell you that Star Fox has been having trouble with its footing lately, but Zero released <3 years ago, and Starlink just had a major guest appearance of the whole Star Fox team in October. Miyamoto has also stated in the past that Star Fox is a favourite of his and he wants to do more with it.

(I love Fire Emblem and support their inclusion in smash by the way, I'm not a 3manyswords person)
I was operating on the assumption that FE still did well.

Miyamoto's pull might be it's greatest strength. Fox is recognizable, but I have a hard time thinking that in the current status quo, it would be seen as an all star franchise. Atlus was, after all, just a guest campaign even if handled rather well. Hopefully we'll get a new SF game that isn't a remake and revitalizes the series (it's Awakening if you will), but as it stands, I doubt if it'd make the cut.
 
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There is no evidence pointing toward Zelda and Peach being planned for 64. The only confirmed dropped characters are Bowser, Dedede, Mewtwo, and Marth.
Well I thought Peach and Zelda were planned, but regardless though, they should have been in the first game.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Well I thought Peach and Zelda were planned, but regardless though, they should have been in the first game.
Then you should edit your post, since if you were banking on cut characters first then there would have been room for them a lot earlier.

Also it's sad (and pretty stupid) how Dedede was the only fighter considered for Smash 64 that wasn't added in Melee.
 
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Then you should edit your post, since if you were banking on cut characters first then there would have been room for them a lot earlier.

Also it's sad (and pretty stupid) how Dedede was the only fighter considered for Smash 64 that wasn't added in Melee.
I remember hearing Sakurai say in a interview that if he could have added one more character to Melee's roster, it would have been Wario. Time constraints screwed over Dedede, Wario, Pit, and possibly Diddy Kong getting in Melee. The reason I think Diddy Kong was going to be playable is because he had no trophy while other important characters in his franchise K. Rool and Dixie Kong did. I think the Rare buyout could have stopped his inclusion in Melee.
 
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Vincey_Boi

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The reason i would choose inceneroar over any other pokemon due to the fact that i guess if it were released this year nintendo would wanna advertize their new characters such as fire emblem did back in melee also pit and dedede because pit was planned and dedede ws also planned but also cause he would be a good representitive over meta knight due to the fact that he is a more notable character.
 

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:ultmario::ultlink::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultdk::ultsamus::ultmarth::ultyoshi::ultluigi::ultmewtwo::ultshulk::ultinkling:
Ok, so this was extremely difficult to decide, but I'll go with this.
I kept most of the original 8 the same, since those series are still notable. However, I've switched Fox out for Marth. Fire emblem eclipses Star Fox in popularity and notability in recent years, so I feel it gets the spot.

The "secret" 4 were tough. Luigi is just too iconic to leave out. Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon, so it can replace Jigglypuff. The other two I based on the Smash 64's other 2 secrets: franchises of lesser importance compared to the main roster. Thus, Splatoon and Xenoblade are here. F-Zero and Earthbound are long dormant these days, so I feel these newer series are good analogues.
 

N3ON

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A 2019 twelve would probably be this disappointing selection.

:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultchrom:
:ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultvillager::ultinkling:

:ultluigi::ultsamus::ultincineroar::ultisabelle:


My twelve would be this:
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus:
:ultmarth::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultinkling:

:ultpit::ultfox::ultvillager::ultsonic:

All killer, no filler.
 
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Gyrom8

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:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultkirby:
:ultsamus::ultpikachu::ultinkling::ultyoshi:
Secret 4:
:ultluigi::ultvillager::ultsonic::ultpacman:

The last spot on the first 8 was either going to be Yoshi or Marth, and I'm thinking now I probably should have gone with Marth: but Crafted World being just round the corner has probably put Yoshi slightly forward in my mind so eh
 

ThyCheshireCat

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Gonna list a stage with each (" means a stage isn't in Smash as of Ultimate 2.0)

:ultmario:: 1-1
:ultkirby:: Green Greens
:ultlink:: Great Plateau Tower
:ultdk:: Kongo Falls
:ultyoshi:: Crafted World"
:ultinkling:: Moray Towers
:ultpikachu:: Pokemon Stadium
:ultbowser:: Bowser's Castle"

Secret Four
:ultluigi:: Luigi's Mansion
:ultcharizard:: Kanto Pokemon League"
:ultwario:: Wario Ware
:ultkingdedede:: Castle Dedede"

BONUS: Bosses:
Master Hand
Petey Piranha
Ganon
King K. Rool
Marx
Mewtwo
 
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For mine, I have three fundamental rules;

1.) In this hypothetical game, there would be updates after the initial release to add more characters to please more fans
2.) There will be third parties included, with a total of two in the base 12 roster
3.) In the base roster of 12, there will only be one character per series represented as to allow as many different characters to be represented as possible.

With that being said, here’s the 8 starter characters and their explanations/stages:

:ultmario: - The face of Nintendo, no explanation needed. Stage: Mushroom Kingdom

:ultdk: - Huge Nintendo character, no-brainer. Stage: Jungle Hijinx

:ultlink: - Zelda is one of the most revered series in the world, obviously he’s here. Stage: Great Plateau Tower

:ultsamus: - Metroid is huge, another no-brainer imo. Stage: Brinstar

:ultkirby: - Sakurai’s baby, even if Sakurai doesn’t direct this hypothetical game I feel it’d be disrespectful not to include him, plus he’s a huge icon. Stage: Green Greens

:ultpikachu: - Pokemon is debatably the biggest media franchise on earth, there’s no possible way he’d EVER not be in smash. Stage: Pokemon Stadium

:ultfox: - Although StarFox isn’t quite as popular as it once was, Fox is still an icon with a ton of smash history, it’d be wrong in my eyes to exclude him. Stage: Corneria

:ultinkling: - The last starter character, Splatoon is possibly the biggest Nintendo IP to crop up in the last decade, Inkling absolutely deserves their spot. Stage: Moray Towers

Now for the 4 unlockable characters and their explanations/stages:

:ultisabelle: - Animal Crossing is a massive series, so they definitely deserve a character. Between Villager and Isabelle, I went with Isabelle who, despite not being the ‘main protagonist’ like Villager, is the overall more popular character and represents the series better imo. Stage: Town and City

:ultmarth: - For the last first party slot, it was a tough decision between Marth, Olimar, Pit, and Shulk, but I ultimately went with Marth due to FE being the biggest series of the group and for having a rich Smash history. Stage: Castle Siege

:ultsonic: - The first third party slot has got to go to Sonic if you ask me, he’s wildly iconic and his company’s history with Nintendo is such a big part of gaming history that he’s earned the spot. Stage: Green Hill Zone

:ultpacman: - The final slot... it was a super difficult decision between the remaining third parties, but I ended up with Pacman due to him being one of the most iconic figures not only in gaming, but in media as a whole; it’s undeniable he’s earned his spot. Stage: Pac-Maze

Thoughts on my choices? Share them, I’d love to hear them!
 
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I would go off of relevancy so..

:ultmario: He always has a new game and is the mascot
:ultlink: BOTW was the thing that sold the Switch
:ultpikachu: Let’s Go, and a new gen are on Switch. He’s also the mascot of Pokémon, Nintendo’s highest seller
:ultkirby: Star Allies recently came out, plus he has been on a sales streak since Return to Dream Land

Alright, with the main four that I think everyone would keep out of the way, here comes the rest of the list...

:ultinkling: Splatoon is Nintendo’s newest successful IP that has stood the test of time (sorry ARMS), so yes Inkling would come back.

:ultvillager: Animal Crossing has exploded in popularity since New Leaf, and with a new title coming soon, he’d be a priority.

:ultmarth: Fire Emblem has taken off since Awakening and is now more consistently getting new titles so Marth can stay. It also helps that Heroes is like Nintendo’s only successful app.

:ultolimar: Pikmin is Miyamoto’s favorite franchise, so he seems to want to keep it relevant and alive. Also Pikmin 4 will be a thing soon?

:ultyoshi: Has a new game coming in March and has been getting consistent entries since Yoshi’s New Island.

:ultsamus: Prime 4 and Returns....Clearly Nintendo is trying to keep this franchise afloat.

:ultdk: Tropical Freeze was ported to Switch, making me believe that DK still has a future. Also it’s Donkey Kong of course he’d be there.

:ultfox: While his last game may have bombed, I do think it brought Star Fox back as then Nintendo loaned the franchise out to Ubisoft. Also, with rumors of Retro doing something with Star Fox, I’d say he needs to stay as Nintendo is still using Star Fox.
 

TheDuke54

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Kind of the same as I did with the Wii U. Toon Link, Doc. Mario (the little changes they did to them have tripped me up a bit, but I am trying to get a handle on them again) Falco, Diddy Kong, and Marth.

I want to also main Ice Climbers again, but I need a lot of practice on that. I just get decimated by anyone with them at the moment. I used them a lot during Melee and I was said they were canned for the WiiU. I know it says 12, but I really don't play any others too often to get the other half completed. I'd just be throwing ones in randomly. Maybe I should look into branching out and see who I might enjoy playing as.

:ulttoonlink: :ultmarth: :ultdiddy: :ultfalco: :ultdoc: :ulticeclimbers:
 
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Realistically if the original Smash did debut this year. This is how I'd imagine the roster.

:ultluigi::ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultmarth:
:ultisabelle::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultinkling::ultpikachu::ultmewtwo:

:ultfox:is no longer as recognizable or popular as his series was back in the 90's.
:ultfalcon:and:ultness:are at this point from dead franchises and no evidence seems to suggest they'll be coming back anytime soon.
:ultjigglypuff:is nowhere as popular as she used to be back then hence her inclusion as among the original 12.

:ultinkling:would be added given its popularity and how new it is.
:ultmarth:given Fire Emblem's currently popularity and the face of the series. He was also planned for the N64 game.
:ultisabelle:same as Inkling given Animal Crossing's popularity and current face to the series.
:ultmewtwo:is rather among the most popular Pokemon as we speak much more on the levels then Jigglypuff was in the 90's. Plus like Marth. He was also actually considered for the N64 game.
 
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Moptimus Prime

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Topic got revived? Sweet.

I don't think I can justify cutting a single franchise at this point. But reducing them to 1 per is fine. However, thinking about it, maybe EarthBound could go?

:ultmario: Gotta obviously have him. If there's time for semi-clones, Luigi should be in.
:ultvillager: The main character. And also the actual representation of the gameplay first. Easily gets the spot as the sole representative. If there's time for semi-clones, then Isabelle can easily get in.
:ultpikachu: Honestly an obvious. Can't get in without it.
:ultmarth: Another one I feel deserves its spot right now.
:ultinkling: Due to cuts of Falcon and Ness, she's easily getting in. I intended to cut Jigglypuff and Luigi for Villager and Marth, but I think this works better to have 4 slots extra.
:ultdk: Yet another given, respectively. Like the other original 8.
:ultsamus: Original 8, baby.
:ultfox: I may be a broken record, but still.
:ultyoshi: Eeeeeeyup.
:ultkirby: Hiiiiiii!
:ultlink: Hiya!
And this is where it gets tough. I already have the other huge series shown off. I'm going to assume no 3rd parties for this. Hmm...
:ultbrawler: Or more akin to Smash 4, where they share one slot. These seems like the most relevant option at the moment, while keeping it 1 per series.
As usual, other clones could work, like Dark Samus, Falco, Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link. Besides Isabelle and Luigi.
 
D

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Updated Choices:
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultkirby::ultyoshi::ultinkling::ultpikachu:
Unlockables: :ultvillager:Either :ultlucina:or :ultike::ultpit::ultfalcon:
DLC: :ultness:(Rex & Pyra):ultsonic::ultmegaman::ultpacman:
DLC 2: :ultmewtwo::ultolimar::ultcloud::ultsimon:(Ryu Hayabusa)
DLC 3: :ultwario::ultisabelle::ultbayonetta::ultsnake: (Yuri Lowell)
 
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BowserKing

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The 2 rosters if SSB started in 2018 (with DLCs representing 2019, so you don't have to worry)

Realistic: :ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultbowser::ultinkling::ultcharizard::ultsonic::ultridley::ultkingdedede:, with :ultluigi::ultdarksamus::ultpichu: and Shadow as possible clones. With :ultpeach::ultzelda::ultyoshi::ultfox::ultmewtwo: and :ultvillager: as DLC

My Version: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultbowser::ultinkling::249::ultpeach::ultkingdedede::ultsonic:, with :ultluigi::ultdarksamus::ultpichu:, Dark Bowser, Octoling, :ultdaisy: and Shadow as possible clones. With :ultmewtwo::ultfox::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultlink::ultzelda: and :ultkrool: as DLC

FWI, I was considering :ultlucario: for Lugia's spot (because :ultlucario: is my favourite Pokémon), but Lugia was chosen instead. :ultvillager: :ultmegaman: and :ultcharizard: were considered for DLC.

I have some more rosters, if it started in 2014 or 2008, but I'm saving it for another time.
 
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I really don't think the original twelve would change much at all, other than removing Falcon and Ness due to a lack of relevancy in the last decade and a half and replacing them with newer things synonymous with Nintendo, like the Inklings or Marth. The original Smash 64 roster are more or less the staples of Nintendo.
We also would not have Captain Falcon on that logic.
 

staindgrey

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We also would not have Captain Falcon on that logic.
Which is... why I said...
I really don't think the original twelve would change much at all, other than removing Falcon and Ness due to a lack of relevancy in the last decade and a half and replacing them with newer things synonymous with Nintendo, like the Inklings or Marth. The original Smash 64 roster are more or less the staples of Nintendo.
 

BowserKing

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A little bonus, if SSB started with in 2014, plus game 2 in 2018 (with DLC for 2019)

Note, this is just a challenge to bring variety, because a smash roster with 12 characters worked in the 64 days, but more characters would make this game franchise more successful

Game 1: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultbowser::249::ultkingdedede::ultpeach::ultsonic:, with :ultluigi::ultdarksamus::ultfalco::ultpichu:, Dark Bowser :ultdaisy: and Shadow as possible clone characters, with :ultlink::ultzelda::ultkrool::ultinkling: and :ultmegaman: as DLC

Melee: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultbowser::249::ultkingdedede::ultpeach::ultsonic::ultluigi::ultfalco::ultlink::ultzelda::ultkrool::ultinkling::ultmegaman::ultincineroar::ultlucario::ultridley::ultmetaknight::ultduckhunt: and :ultolimar:, with :ultdarksamus::ultwolf::ultpichu:, Dark Bowser :ultdaisy:, Shadow, Octoling and Dark Meta Knight being possible clones, with Fawful :ultmewtwo::ultganondorf::ultvillager::ultlucina: and :ultbowserjr: as DLC

This is just an exercise, with one more coming as a bonus (and it will be a challenge, as no DLC's for game one for starting in 2008)

Now for if SSB started in 2008

Game 1: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultbowser::249::ultkingdedede::ultpeach::ultpit:, with :ultluigi::ultdarksamus::ultfalco::ultpichu: and :ultdaisy: as possible clones (Sadly no DLC)

Note: Pit was added so Kid Icarus: Uprising can happen

Melee: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultbowser::249::ultkingdedede::ultpeach::ultpit::ultluigi::ultfalco::ultlink::ultzelda::ultsonic::ultlucario::ultgreninja::ultridley::ultduckhunt::ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultvillager::ultmegaman:, with :ultdarksamus::ultwolf::ultpichu: Dark Bowser :ultdaisy::ultdarkpit::ultyounglink: Shadow and :ultisabelle: as possible clones, with :ultkrool::ultmetaknight::ultinkling: Fawful and :ultmewtwo: as DLC

Brawl: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus:/:ultzss::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultbowser::249::ultkingdedede::ultpeach::ultpit::ultluigi::ultfalco::ultlink::ultzelda::ultsonic::ultlucario::ultgreninja::ultridley::ultduckhunt::ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultvillager::ultmegaman::ultkrool::ultmetaknight::ultinkling: Fawful :ultmewtwo::ultlucina::ultisabelle::ultincineroar::ultbowserjr::ultrosalina::ultdiddy::ultwolf::ultganondorf::ultsimon:, with :ultdarksamus::ultpichu: Dark Bowser :ultdaisy::ultdarkpit::ultyounglink: Shadow, Dark Meta Knight, Dixie Kong and :ultrichter: as possible clones, with :ultsnake::ultcorrinf::ulticeclimbers: Midna, Shantae and Ray-Man and DLC

Note: Ice Climbers are there as a retro rep
 
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I don't think I ever thought to do this. I know I made a post earlier, but I'm going to take a stab at a Second and Third Game Roster too.
A total of 12.

I changed it up a bit because I'm not sure if Capcom or Sega would allow Nintendo to put Ryu and Sonic in if it was the first game in the series.
1st Game.png
A total of 26 with no cuts.

It is at this point where Sheik and Zero Suit Samus are added as transformation characters.
2nd Game.png
A total of 37 with no cuts.

The grey question mark is made to represent a Nintendo game that came out very recently. Splatoon and Arms were new, I would think Nintendo would have created another franchise by the third game.

The yellow question mark is random. I didn't put it in the first or second game because random character selection debuted in Smash Brawl.
3rd Game.png
While a first and second game are easy to create with the third game being possible, there is so many unpredictable aspects that it would be hard to create a roster for the fourth game. I already used a question mark to represent a future character that Nintendo probably hasn't even thought of yet.
 
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Xelrog

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As many diverse companies and properties as possible.

:ultmario::ultsonic::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultcloud::ultsimon:

With the major company mascots covered I could then expand to more than one per company.

:ultlink::ultpikachu::ultkirby::ultdk::ultyoshi::ultsnake:

If Smash dropped today for the first time and all of these characters were candidates, I would want as many legends of video game history in as possible because the me in that continuity probably wouldn't believe that such a thing would ever happen a second time.
 
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BowserKing

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Making my version of the first smash game have some sequel

My Smash 2 roster
Full Roster: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultbowser::ultinkling::249::ultpeach::ultkingdedede::ultsonic::ultmewtwo::ultfox::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultlink::ultzelda::ultkrool::ultluigi::ultfalco::ultdaisy::ultlucario::ultincineroar::ultlucina::ultmegaman::ultganondorf: Fawful, :ultolimar::ultisabelle:, with :ultdarksamus::ultpichu: Dark Bowser, Octoling, Shadow, :ultwolf: Dark Meta Knight, :ultmarth::ultvillager: as clone characters, with Midna, :ultbowserjr::ultpit::ultwario::ultcorrinf: Shantae and Ray-Man as DLC
 

Tetrin

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1) Mario
2) Donkey Kong
3) Link
4) Samus
5) Kirby
6) Inkling
7) Pikachu
8) Yoshi
9) Ness
10) Villager
11) Fox
12) Marth
 

BowserKing

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Here is the third game of my reboot. Calling it Subspace Smash

Roster: :ultmario::ultdk::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultbowser::ultinkling::249::ultpeach::ultkingdedede::ultsonic::ultmewtwo::ultfox::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultlink::ultzelda::ultkrool::ultluigi::ultfalco::ultdaisy::ultlucario::ultincineroar::ultlucina::ultmegaman::ultganondorf: Fawful, :ultolimar::ultisabelle::ultbowserjr::ultpit::ultwario::ultcorrinf:Shantae, Ray-man, :ultwolf::ultvillager::ultduckhunt::ultrosalina:Adeleine, Steve, :ultjigglypuff::ultfalcon::ultness: Spring-Man, :ultsnake::ultgreninja:, Midna, :ultdiddy: and :ultpalutena:, with :ultdarksamus::ultpichu: Dark Bowser, Octoling, Shadow, Dark Meta Knight, :ultyounglink::ultchrom::ultdarkpit: Tom Nook, Black Shadow, :ultlucas:, Ribbon-Girl and Dixie Kong, with :ultryu::ultsimon::ultbayonetta:, Krystal, Bio-Rex and :ultgnw: being DLC
 

SlickWylde

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Doing the "Roster of 12" from the title (Looks like the thread moved away from that): I think I'd base it mostly off relevance/recent choices, as well as overall popularity. Similar to what Sakurai did for the N64.

Popular/New:
:ultmario:/:ultluigi:
:ultyoshi:
:ultpikachu:
:ultinkling:
:ultkirby:
:ultyounglink:/:ultlink:
:ultcorrin:/:ultcorrinf:
Classics:
:ultdk:
:ultfox:/:ultfalco:
:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:
Guest Stars
:ultmegaman:
:ultsonic:/(Knuckles)

Eh, now that i've done it, I don't like it much lol. It's hard to make a really good roster of 12!
 

Yoshi_smash

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I can't think of any justification for keeping Yoshi out of the 12-man roster that I buy...
It bothers me that so many people are excluding Yoshi in their hypothetical 12-character roster. Why do so many people dislike Yoshi, or not think of him as relevant?

I counted 49 people in this thread who excluded Yoshi from their 12-character starting roster. Yoshi should not be considered such a low priority by people. In this thread and others, Yoshi being excluded seems to be a recurring theme.

Anyway, this would be my 12-character roster:

:ultmario: :ultyoshi: :ultpikachu: :ultkirby: :ultfox: :ultdk: :ultfalcon: :ultsonic: :ultpokemontrainer: :ultkrool: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr:

(Mario, Yoshi, PIkachu, Kirby, Fox, Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer [consisting of Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard], King K. Rool, Bowser, and Bowser Jr. [including Koopalings alternates])

This roster also goes by the rule that each character must have already been in one of the smash games (so excluding characters like Tails and Birdo who have never been playable)

Removed Yoshi and Fox since the former is from the same franchise as Mario.
Actually, in smash games, Yoshi is not in the Mario franchise (he is in the Yoshi franchise, which is why Yoshi has an egg symbol instead of a mushroom symbol in Smash games.)

This is literally perfect. Although they maybe would replace Villager with Isabelle. Thread is closed. This guy won.
That roster is not perfect, because Yoshi is not in it.

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
That is not a perfectly-balanced roster, because Yoshi isn't in it.

Why do people think a roster is "perfect" when Yoshi isn't in it?
 
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