IDAHO Smash Thread

[Mecakoto]

Any Brawl or Melee tournaments going on around Southern Idaho in a week or 2? Yes. I AM to lazy to go to Google or search myself. I'm a bit tired at the moment. =p
Please. No Brawl+ tournaments if so. Just the standard Brawl. I have to many issues with Brawl+ to even attend one.

 

[craztad]

i soo want to go there.

 

[gnosis]

Wanna smash gotta smash.

 

[Turtlehoop]

Brawl+ > Regular Brawl

 

[QraQ]

Any Brawl or Melee tournaments going on around Southern Idaho in a week or 2? Yes. I AM to lazy to go to Google or search myself. I'm a bit tired at the moment. =p
Please. No Brawl+ tournaments if so. Just the standard Brawl. I have to many issues with Brawl+ to even attend one.

I realize it's hard to go from imbalanced and slow to slightly more balanced and fast.

The very issue Brawl players have with melee =/

 

[LuigiKing]

I realize it's hard to go from imbalanced and slow to slightly more balanced and fast.

The very issue Brawl players have with melee =/

Qraq, we have to start playing a little brawl+. You guys are actually pretty cool considering you're from S. Idaho

 

[Mecakoto]

I realize it's hard to go from imbalanced and slow to slightly more balanced and fast.

The very issue Brawl players have with melee =/

I started with Melee and have no issues with it. Playing purely Brawl for a year killed my Melee skill but I'm getting it back gradually.

It isn't game mechanics or speed that I have an issue with with Brawl+. It's the concept altogether.

 

[KAOSTAR]

GGs QraQ, Knuttz etc Ggs *****es lol

hope to see u guys again soon

 

[gnosis]

It isn't game mechanics or speed that I have an issue with with Brawl+. It's the concept altogether.

I'm interested in this, just from a game design point of view. What about the concept of being able to make a game more enjoyable for a large group of people, including many who would otherwise not play it at all, rubs you the wrong way? Something about designer's intent?

 

[joeplicate]

good **** to everyone who made it out from idaho, you guys are all really cool


especially qraq, now I'm automatically agreeing with him in every online argument
why? tough ****, that's just how it goes

 

[scarykid78]

Lolz I got third in melee at the PnT tournament and second in brawlawl. Epic win.
Also I have Brawl+ now. Brawl+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Brawl>Melee IMO.

I'll MM anyone in Brawl+ against my Sheik :D

 

[AlCheMisT amari]

lame scarykid. melee > brawl+ > brawl. anyways... too bad joeplicate that we didnt really get to talk. i was sick and couldnt really talk at all because i lost my voice. i did play you though and you were pretty good. regardless that you were fox.................

 

[knuttz45]

JOE: way to **** me...I'm gonna work on the fox matchup, and not get wrecked by a fast fox....who knows the matchup. You were one of the 3 people who I played who I felt really knew the matchup...aka took advantage of me giving fox too much space...(u, M2k(of course), and MIkeHaze...)

Kaostar, gg's, when you said you were kaostar, kind of caught me off guard...

Luigiking: I think your comment should be the other way around...you guys are pretty cool, even though you are from N. idaho.

Skarykid, my jiggz your shiek....brawl +...$5.

bTW...i now officially hate wobbling more than anything in the world...yes, i'm being a hypocritical dude because i rest...

after watching m2k's sheik...it wants me to play sheik...

smash tonight after 9?

 

[gnosis]

Were you wobbled out of the tourney knuttz?

I'm down for smash. And brawl+ maybe... I have it on my wii as well if people want it.

 

[Mecakoto]

I'm interested in this, just from a game design point of view. What about the concept of being able to make a game more enjoyable for a large group of people, including many who would otherwise not play it at all, rubs you the wrong way? Something about designer's intent?

That is one reason, in a sense. It is also the fact that people will hack into and edit the base coding of a game in an attempt to change it because they don't like it. I'd ordinarily have no issue with that what-so-ever, but Brawl is still new. After 3-4 years I can understand wanting to change something old and reinvent it to bring some nostalgia back to the game, but Brawl wasn't even close to that point when the Brawl+ project first started.

A scary thought arises from this: what if this can be done with any game? Editing it to the editor's liking? We aren't back in the days where guides for every game existed and tutorials were everywhere, including in the game itself. We had to learn by playing and intuition. Trial and Error was a necessity. Memorisation was required. It was hard unless it was easy. If it was easy, it wasn't worth your time. Now, if you don't like a level, edit the code and change it to make it a cake walk. You don't have the coding experience to do it? Someone already did and you simply have to download the patch.

There is also the point of stubborness to be made. Rather then try to adapt Brawl to the point where it is faster then when it first came and do as much as we can in those 60 frames a second that we are given, people are compelled to just simply change the new to try to fit the old. We all know Brawl has problems. It is undeniable. But what is wrong with simply trying to fix the broken by working around it instead of attempting to cut it out completely or add to it so much that it no longer seems broken.

Yet another point to be made is the split in the community, which is never a good thing. With a split the Metagame of every single character suffers on both ends. Instead of having 2000 advanced players focusing on... let's say Ganondorf... we will have far less. This increases the amount of time it takes to develop the character in question. This could lead to us missing the game-breaking AT that works with Ganon before Brawl's life cycle is over. The one that would make Ganon a god. What's worse is that I've seen massive communities crumble and die for lesser things than a simple hack.

Aside from splitting the community, it lessens tournament sizes quite nicely. Look above you. Look at the past posts. People have been saying Brawl+ > Brawl. I'd like to hear the logic, but I doubt I'll get anything more than an equivalent to "it's fun." Brawl+ takes players from the Brawl community and lessens the number of people that go to Brawl tournaments. Good luck to us if we want to get a major sponsor like MLG. Money is power. If we don't have enough attendance to make them money, we drop from power as a major competitive game. I also dread what will happen if Brawl+ starts to get tournaments going. It is doubtful because of what is required to simply play Brawl+, but I digress.

Now, the mere fact that I'm on this board shows that I don't overly care about original designer's intent. We all know Brawl wasn't MEANT to be a competitive game. I doubt Melee was, either. I wasn't playing Melee when it first came out. But I do respect original designer's intent enough to recognise that a game is more then a game to that designer. The designer put years into the game trying to make it the best they can just to have it edited by someone who didn't like an aspect of it.

I'm designing a hack of Super Mario RPG: Legend of the 7 Stars right now. It will take me months to perfect and complete. I can start true design of it when V1.1 of the editor is released. Once it is done, I don't want someone who is having difficulty on one part of the game to edit that part out. I want them to seek advice or message me with their concerns on difficulty. It is a respect thing.

My final point is what people say to people like me that don't play Brawl+ for whatever our reasons are. I asked previously if there are any Brawl or Melee tournaments going on around Southern Idaho. I mention that I don't want to be told of Brawl+ tournaments and I get a few messages saying Brawl+ is better. I get no answers for my question. I don't even get pointed in a direction that could lead me to the answers I am seeking on my own. I'm sure if I made a new account and did the same thing in a week that I did recently I'd get more answers like I already have gotten: none that are conclusive. It is causing people looking for answers to be shot down by people who play a hacked version of the game you have questions on or about.

It all comes down to this: Brawl+ is fun for you. Ok. I respect that. What I don't respect is the overall harm it is doing.


Now, before anyone responds to me, because at least one person will, (as is the nature of a message board with a massive post) I would like you to read each and every word of the above. I want you to think about it. Try to remove any bias from yourself. I tried, and I failed to a degree. I can only hope it was a small degree. It is to be expected, however, since that is how opinion goes. My opinions of how the community and Metagame grow, and also what respect is and how it should be treated, are all in this.

The original question wanted me to take a game-design point of view. I did near the end. A topic like this, however, can not be looked at purely from a game-design point of view. I hope you understand.

 

[gnosis]

That is one reason, in a sense. It is also the fact that people will hack into and edit the base coding of a game in an attempt to change it because they don't like it. I'd ordinarily have no issue with that what-so-ever, but Brawl is still new. After 3-4 years I can understand wanting to change something old and reinvent it to bring some nostalgia back to the game, but Brawl wasn't even close to that point when the Brawl+ project first started.

Putting a time restriction on when people can make up their minds about a game doesn't really work. Brawl+ addresses limitations that are inherent to Brawl, things that will never ever be fixed by 'advanced play'. Brawl will always have very little shield stun, very low hitstun, much less freedom of movement compared to other Smash series, random tripping, etc. Those things will never change, and it's those things which make many people, including myself, dislike it to the point of not wanting to play it at all. The fact that the game is new doesn't change the fact that the game's system is intolerably bad.

A scary thought arises from this: what if this can be done with any game? Editing it to the editor's liking? We aren't back in the days where guides for every game existed and tutorials were everywhere, including in the game itself. We had to learn by playing and intuition. Trial and Error was a necessity. Memorisation was required. It was hard unless it was easy. If it was easy, it wasn't worth your time. Now, if you don't like a level, edit the code and change it to make it a cake walk. You don't have the coding experience to do it? Someone already did and you simply have to download the patch.

I don't care about this at all. The more people change games and the easier it is done, the more I'm excited about the future of gaming. It saves a game from the doom of always being what it was released as. Too many otherwise great games have fallen because of a few flaws, or silly design decisions, or time restraints, etc...

There is also the point of stubborness to be made. Rather then try to adapt Brawl to the point where it is faster then when it first came and do as much as we can in those 60 frames a second that we are given, people are compelled to just simply change the new to try to fit the old. We all know Brawl has problems. It is undeniable. But what is wrong with simply trying to fix the broken by working around it instead of attempting to cut it out completely or add to it so much that it no longer seems broken.

I don't understand your logic here. Given the decision between the two and the ability to do either, what kind of person would pretend something isn't broken rather than actually fix it? What kind of obligation do people have to Brawl that they have to accept it, warts and all, when something better can be made? The metagame for Brawl+ will -always- be better than Brawl's, no matter the time given, simply because Brawl+ fixes the game itself and allows for more options, thus allowing for a deeper metagame. Brawl's problems will -always- exist inside Brawl, there's no working around it or getting around it. It'll always be a campy and slow game with some extremely cheesy **** in it.

Yet another point to be made is the split in the community, which is never a good thing. With a split the Metagame of every single character suffers on both ends. Instead of having 2000 advanced players focusing on... let's say Ganondorf... we will have far less. This increases the amount of time it takes to develop the character in question. This could lead to us missing the game-breaking AT that works with Ganon before Brawl's life cycle is over. The one that would make Ganon a god. What's worse is that I've seen massive communities crumble and die for lesser things than a simple hack.

You're acting like the Brawl+ community would all play Brawl if it wasn't for those **** hackers offering something better. You're also acting like choosing to play a game restricts you from playing or getting good at any others. But that's just the thing; a lot of Brawl+ players have no interest whatsoever in Brawl. For the Brawl+ players who do, there's absolutely nothing limiting them from playing both. Brawl+ doesn't split the community so much as it creates a new one, which has some overlap with two existing ones (Melee's and Brawl's).

Aside from splitting the community, it lessens tournament sizes quite nicely. Look above you. Look at the past posts. People have been saying Brawl+ > Brawl. I'd like to hear the logic, but I doubt I'll get anything more than an equivalent to "it's fun." Brawl+ takes players from the Brawl community and lessens the number of people that go to Brawl tournaments. Good luck to us if we want to get a major sponsor like MLG. Money is power. If we don't have enough attendance to make them money, we drop from power as a major competitive game. I also dread what will happen if Brawl+ starts to get tournaments going. It is doubtful because of what is required to simply play Brawl+, but I digress.

Why do people have an obligation to the Brawl community? If the game sucks and Brawl+ is more entertaining for them, then they have every right to move on. If not enough people remain to keep Brawl going strong, guess what? That's the game's fault. It has all the marketing, sells and attention a game could hope for, so if a 'simple hack' kills it off, then it really did deserve it.

Now, the mere fact that I'm on this board shows that I don't overly care about original designer's intent. We all know Brawl wasn't MEANT to be a competitive game. I doubt Melee was, either. I wasn't playing Melee when it first came out. But I do respect original designer's intent enough to recognise that a game is more then a game to that designer. The designer put years into the game trying to make it the best they can just to have it edited by someone who didn't like an aspect of it.

I'm designing a hack of Super Mario RPG: Legend of the 7 Stars right now. It will take me months to perfect and complete. I can start true design of it when V1.1 of the editor is released. Once it is done, I don't want someone who is having difficulty on one part of the game to edit that part out. I want them to seek advice or message me with their concerns on difficulty. It is a respect thing.

Hurting Sakurai's feelings doesn't concern me. He wasn't trying to make a competitive, balanced fighter, he was trying to make a fun party game. He succeeded. Now the community is doing what he didn't. If someone wanted to take your edit and turn it into something completely different, then no, addressing you with their concerns would probably only annoy you (why don't you make it a 2d shooter! why don't you make it a deer hunting game!).

My final point is what people say to people like me that don't play Brawl+ for whatever our reasons are. I asked previously if there are any Brawl or Melee tournaments going on around Southern Idaho. I mention that I don't want to be told of Brawl+ tournaments and I get a few messages saying Brawl+ is better. I get no answers for my question. I don't even get pointed in a direction that could lead me to the answers I am seeking on my own. I'm sure if I made a new account and did the same thing in a week that I did recently I'd get more answers like I already have gotten: none that are conclusive. It is causing people looking for answers to be shot down by people who play a hacked version of the game you have questions on or about.

No one mentioned tournaments because there are none. Welcome to Idaho : ). People brought up Brawl+, etc., because you vaguely mentioned not being able to tolerate it, and it's a message board, so people like to respond to that sort of thing. Especially considering the sort of rivalry the different Smash games can tend to have.

I really appreciate you actually going into this, I didn't expect a thorough response like you gave. Now, as far as tournaments go, the only thing I can give you is that I'd like to hold a power rankings tournament sometime soon, but nothing's concrete yet so I didn't bother mentioning it. As far as my efforts are concerned, though, it'll be Melee only (maybe Brawl+ as well depending on if people start playing it). Maybe someone who cares can setup Brawl as well.

 

[Mecakoto]

I really appreciate you actually going into this, I didn't expect a thorough response like you gave. Now, as far as tournaments go, the only thing I can give you is that I'd like to hold a power rankings tournament sometime soon, but nothing's concrete yet so I didn't bother mentioning it. As far as my efforts are concerned, though, it'll be Melee only (maybe Brawl+ as well depending on if people start playing it). Maybe someone who cares can setup Brawl as well.

I tend to make massive posts that go in-depth when my opinion is involved. Ah well. No one can fault me for it. And they don't have to agree with it. Thus, my signature.

If you organize power rankings tournaments for Melee, let me know. I might as well attempt to see if I can hold my own with Idaho's best. If I were better at being a TO I'd do Brawl myself. I can never manage to get more then 10-15 people, though. It also doesn't help that I only recent joined SWF and that I don't have a reputation that extends past a local environment.

All with due time, I guess.

 

[knuttz45]

Knutts Points at 5am to Mecakoto:

1. holy ****...you get 10-15 people in burley for a tourney? Sounds like BOISE/MERIDIAN tournaments...yeah, idaho tournaments are few and far between, i was and still am dissapointed...sometimes i wish we had communities like cali...

2. Mecakoto...in melee, we(I) will 4 stock you. if you don't wavedash, or l cancel....it will be with all characters...please, don't be discouraged...but realize there probably is a huge skill gap. (Kind of like how m2k 3 stocked me everytime i played him...)

3. Argument score:
Mecakoto: 5 points,
Gnosis: 5 points,
Also:
Turtlehoop: -10 points,
Qraq: infinity points...this is how all arguments go...

4. It great you have a good "rep" in burley, please tell others to join. we don't need another kaleo...aka, "i'm the only one in my group to join, get 3-4 stocked by everyone, then not give anyone numbers, and stay supreme in my own group of smashers not realizing that i'm only hurting everyone else because Idaho can't get better, and only Idaho's best can even keep up with mid-high-mid players in other states..."...yeah, i just ranted about kaleo....little *****...step up...(that was to kaleo)

5. Idaho melee players like brawl +....Idaho brawl players like brawl+....everyone likes brawl+....I like brawl+....qraq likes brawl+....don't mess with it.

6. keep making tourneys, make entry fees, this will make people better because they will lose money. Just keep it going, some days are good, some are bad. just keep organizing stuff. If you want to make a carpool to meridian, i can def throw a tournament that turns into a smashfest all night. I WILL house everyone who comes. Sat nights really only for real tournies...for my house...which is basically the only smash place.

7. we have and idaho pr which i'm too lazy to update brawl and N. Idaho...maybe tommorow...

8. god your posts were long

9. one comment to you, especially since you brought MLG into the equation. HALO 3. MLG Playlists MOD the game to have 10% faster movement, and 10% slower shield regen. Also, spawn points are moded as well.

10. Well, here is an opinion. Brawl+ makes a faster pace game than brawl. It in fact is what us old melee players really expected to have when brawl came out, instead of the game we have grown to know and hate. I believe that there possibly could be a community for it in the future once an offical code set is made and if no legal issue arise from Nintendo. Look at dota vs. Warcraft 3....some original games are just so horrible that the mods are more popular because a. they are faster pased, b. offer more competitive value, c. more fun. Yes, i'm comparing brawl+ vs. brawl to dota vs. warcraft 3.....

moar random stuff:

so we gonna do brawl rankings too? SK, i need all the numbers of your homies...who play brawl. Someone please advance the metagame so i might feel like getting better....remember i went 2-8 in pools in washington...i'm basically no 2 or i would say at times no 1 in brawl in W. Idaho. I'll give LuigiKing the crown in brawl. Even though I'll MM next time i see him..my samus, his luigi! my samus is the only char i think can beat you Luigiking!!!!! (too bad i sd'd in our match)

Gnosis: Knuttz is no 1...the power rankings is for 2nd on. ({}) I think we should base our pr directly on the last oos tourament...which puts tate and churro above qraq!!!!!!! {obviously kidding}

brawl+ tourney? churro, thats your queue....

how was the sheik? tearing it up moFO!!!!

sleepy time

 

[gnosis]

Your sheik needs work... and is that emoticon supposed to be a tongue licking an *** hole?

 

[knuttz45]

its liking a ******, it starts with a v....

 

[AlCheMisT amari]

haha, so knuttz, i don't have that day off, i have tuesday and wednesday off, i'll see you then. Anyone like a ride?
I need to pick up another character.... like falco or not shiek.

 

[Roager]

On the topic of Brawl+ (A day late, my apologies)

I just want to point out that gnosis argues from the point of view that Vanilla Brawl is inherently poorly designed. Intolerably Bad, if I remember the wording correctly. I'm sure I'll face some serious backlash for this, but I disagree. I think less hitstun is a good thing. I think you start playing a very dangerous game when you edit things like that. Brawl+ is an attempt to "competitive-ize" the game, for lack of a better word. As an ideal, there's nothing wrong with it, but when you put it into practice, you start facing problems.

I haven't tried Brawl+ in a long time, so it's tough to argue specifics, but if we bump up, say, shield stun, then what's to stop a MetaKnight or a Fox from putting crazy amounts of pressure on a guard, inescapably, because you're stuck in shield stun? Similar problem with adding hitstun. Is it really okay for a Jiggz to combo like the unedited Fox or MK, knowing that those two also get to combo even better than before?

My biggest complaint from what I've seen from Brawl+ is that it can't sufficiently accomplish the goal it has. The only way I know of to do it is to be able to set each individual property (stun, knockback, damage, etc) for each individual attack (Falco's bair, Snake's Fsmash, Pika's sideB, etc) and balance those out.

If that's possible, then it'll still take ungodly amounts of time to finish, and if it's not, editing globally (i.e. old hitstun*1.25=new hitstun) is not going to work.

If I'm just flat wrong (cuz I might be), please explain how I'm wrong. Honestly, if Brawl+ is different than what I think it is, then I'd wanna know.

 

[gnosis]

See, the whole 'intolerably bad' thing is opinion. It's the opinion of many, but not all, Brawl+ players; almost all Brawl+ players at -least- think Brawl is lacking something. That's why it was made. Of course it's going to be different. Maybe you don't like that characters can combo now, but the players and designers of Brawl+ wanted that to happen; it's something they really didn't like about vBrawl. Stick with Brawl if it frightens you so much : P.

And Brawl+ does have the capability to edit each individual attacks base knockback, knockback growth, speed, the angle the attack launches you, damage, and maybe some other parameters I'm forgetting. They've yet to edit throws, but they did get rid of grab release infinites! Anyway, it's an ongoing balance process, but the problems you're describing don't exist. As far as I know no one has inescapable pressure strings. Maybe if you're up against a wall, but that's always been part of Smash games. Fox is significantly better, due to combos, yeah, but they're not really broken. Metaknight's still really good but other characters can deal with him now so he isn't as godly. Quite simply, shieldstun and hitstun weren't increased enough to cause the problems you're describing, just enough to make offense a viable and worthwhile option.

Edit: and yes I think it's perfectly fine that Jigglypuff, a horrible character in vBrawl, can do some combos now.

edit2: And the balancing process hasn't been taking an ungodly amount of time. First off, not every move needs to be fixed. Most can be left untouched; that cuts down tons of time right there. Second off, there's a lot of people playing Brawl+ and commenting on any issues that come up. Moves that need tweaking, and what kind of general tweaking they need (maybe the angle needs changed, or maybe it does too much knockback, or not enough, etc.), are noticed pretty quickly by the community. Then, you got a decent sized team of programmers who decide how to specifically tweak it, it's released for more playtesting, then eventually those tweaks make it into an 'official' codeset release.

 

[Roager]

See, the whole 'intolerably bad' thing is opinion. It's the opinion of many, but not all, Brawl+ players; almost all Brawl+ players at -least- think Brawl is lacking something. That's why it was made. Of course it's going to be different. Maybe you don't like that characters can combo now, but the players and designers of Brawl+ wanted that to happen; it's something they really didn't like about vBrawl. Stick with Brawl if it frightens you so much : P.

And Brawl+ does have the capability to edit each individual attacks base knockback, knockback growth, speed, the angle the attack launches you, damage, and maybe some other parameters I'm forgetting. They've yet to edit throws, but they did get rid of grab release infinites! Anyway, it's an ongoing balance process, but the problems you're describing don't exist. As far as I know no one has inescapable pressure strings. Fox is significantly better, due to combos, yeah, but they're not really broken. Metaknight's still really good but other characters can deal with him now so he isn't as godly. Quite simply, shieldstun and hitstun weren't increased enough to cause the problems you're describing, just enough to make offense a viable and worthwhile option.

Edit: and yes I think it's perfectly fine that Jigglypuff, a horrible character in vBrawl, can do some combos now.

Ok, so my examples aren't exactly accurate, and it's good to hear that there's specific edits possible. In fact, if Brawl+ makes a balanced game, then more power to it.

I guess my biggest concern at this point is how balance would be achieved. Personally, I'd rather see toptiers get nerfed than bottom tiers get buffed. Of course, there'll be some of both, but still. A 0-Death combo is roughly equivalent to a one-hit-kill attack, and I don't wanna see a game full of those.

EDIT: I suppose I'm saying that combos are okay, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Elsewise, we're looking at a game where whoever lands the first hit wins. Or rather, gets the kill/stock.

 

[Mecakoto]

2. Mecakoto...in melee, we(I) will 4 stock you. if you don't wavedash, or l cancel....it will be with all characters...please, don't be discouraged...but realize there probably is a huge skill gap. (Kind of like how m2k 3 stocked me everytime i played him...)

The only thing I really have a comment on is this. I do Wavedash and I L-Cancel everything. You will probably beat me. It is almost a guarantee. But I'm good enough to at least take a few stock from you. The only person that has seen me play in a Melee tournament is Turtlehoop (if I remember right) and that was when I was <excuse> on no sleep from the last night and after not playing for almost a year. </excuse> I'm sure once I get back to my old self I'll be able to hold my own, but until then...

 

[gnosis]

Top tiers getting nerfed over bottom tiers getting buffed is, like, the quintessential BAD balancing decision. You give bad characters options to deal with the good characters, you don't just neuter everyone into a bland, boring POS. That's how a game gets balanced, but remains fun. Take Guilty Gear for example, where the balancing philosophy is more or less 'let's make -everyone- godly!'. Sometimes certain tactics are just too strong and need reworking, but overall a good balancer leans towards buffing and improving the lower tier's options.

As for your 0-to-death fear, Brawl+ is not 64, 0-to-deaths are not rampant, and buffs to **** characters aren't gonna change that. I mean jesus, it's still not up to Melee's level of combos, and that was nothing like a first hit = first kill game.

edit: mecakoto don't limit yourself! destroy us all! that's what it takes to be any good at this game... inexhaustible spirit and determination.

 

[Roager]

Top tiers getting nerfed over bottom tiers getting buffed is, like, the quintessential BAD balancing decision. You give bad characters options to deal with the good characters, you don't just neuter everyone into a bland, boring POS. That's how a game gets balanced, but remains fun. Take Guilty Gear for example, where the balancing philosophy is more or less 'let's make -everyone- godly!'. Sometimes certain tactics are just too strong and need reworking, but overall a good balancer leans towards buffing and improving the lower tier's options.

As for your 0-to-death fear, Brawl+ is not 64, 0-to-deaths are not rampant, and buffs to **** characters aren't gonna change that. I mean jesus, it's still not up to Melee's level of combos, and that was nothing like a first hit = first kill game.

edit: mecakoto don't limit yourself! destroy us all! that's what it takes to be any good at this game... inexhaustible spirit and determination.

As I've said before, I haven't looked into Brawl+ in a while, but when I played it, my friends and I agreed, landing a hit usually started a crazy long combo which would either be a kill or upwards of 80%. That is to say, far past Melee's combos.

And I'm deeply offended that you would call low tiers "bland" and "boring"

Falcon and Link are tons of fun.

 

[knuttz45]

haha, so knuttz, i don't have that day off, i have tuesday and wednesday off, i'll see you then. Anyone like a ride?
I need to pick up another character.... like falco or not shiek.

get wrecked mt home...btw.....and how long ago did you play th in tourney?

 

[AlCheMisT amari]

idk. while ago. if you ask him he might just say **** dan.

 

[Turtlehoop]

**** you Brandon.

And no, that's not all I'll say about it. There's a reason nobody in Mountain Home likes you anymore and you're too ignorant to figure it out. You had your chance for us to attempt to talk to you again and you blew it, just like many other things I won't say because you'd go emo and pretend to live in Virginia again.

That is all.

 

[knuttz45]

i was going to make a post that was annoying like usual because of something ******** in my code, but saw TH's post....btw my question was at the new kid dan...sorry....

GET OVER YOUR SELF MOUNTAIN HOME KIDS!!!!! And grow the FVCK UP. God dan's last post really had nothing to do with what you just said TH.

idk. while ago. if you ask him he might just say **** dan......unedited...

then you reply....

And no, that's not all I'll say about it. There's a reason nobody in Mountain Home likes you anymore and you're too ignorant to figure it out. You had your chance for us to attempt to talk to you again and you blew it, just like many other things I won't say because you'd go emo and pretend to live in Virginia again.

how old are you th? whats with the direct attack? you need to understand that some people really take things differently and have hard times in their lives...some people ***** to others and beat a dead horse, some get professional help, and others go into a hole of depression....yeah dan scared the **** out of all us, but now you condemn him forever? wow dude...wow. and its not just to th, its to all the mountain home kids. What did he do other than scare you? Steal your kid, try to move away, saying horrific lies about you and friends so you possibly could lose all custody....no...i think not...i mean, have you even talked since it happened? Obviously not...try that...


and dan...maybe try talking to them too? and not egging on th by saying, oh yeah, he'll just say this....

 

[AlCheMisT amari]

sorry. it seemed like a common theme when i am mentioned. but yea it was wrong for me to "speak" for him. And knuttz dont try to defend me if you are because it'd be better if the subject just not be talked about. i can solve it or deal with the aftermath. and dont attack him back in my place. So what new kid?

 

[Turtlehoop]

Yea, except for the fact I was going through the exact hard time he was, if not worse. Instead of telling my "friends" I moved to another state and numerous other lies I got helped, talked to my friends, and got support. He did not, then randomly came back one day expecting everything to go back to the way it was. Doesn't work that way, especially when I had my entire family involved trying to look for him, having discussions that went on for hours with my counselor about how I could have changed what Dan did, finding out one of my friends from Washington killed himself when we had thought Dan had done the same, and for what? For him to come back, be the same douchebag who mooches off people he used to be, and still not receive a face-to-face, heartfelt apology? I told him numerous times before I graduated school and even in the fall when I was in Pocatello he could talk to me if something was up because I would listen, and he chose not to. I'm not the one who should be punished for trying to help, especially not from you Brandon.

Don't try to justify anything. If there's anyone who can say and feel what's been going on, it's me, because the last six months of my life have been hell and I regret 99% of what I've done in the past year, but I don't make people hate me because of it or lie to anyone.

I've attempted not to bring this into the public and even told you over the phone why none of us in Mountain Home talked to Dan anymore, Brandon. You can NOT tell me to try to understand what he was going through with being depressed when I understand that completely and do feel pity for him, but I don't forgive him for the other bull**** he pulled that really did make me and the other people here in Mountain Home worry our ***** off because our supposed friend may have killed himself. Brandon, if you bring it up again, I will call you, I don't care what time, and scream at you for being ignorant to these facts because you really DON'T know what happened. It wasn't a personal attack, it was stating the truth so he would stop talking about me because I don't give a **** and would rather not defend myself over pointless bull**** like you've brought up.


Dan, if you ever want any respect from any of us in Mountain Home again, you've got a long road ahead of you. Don't expect it to come anytime soon, if I can even stand talking to you long enough for you to actually aplogize (which I don't and never have expected). You obviously haven't dealt with the aftermath of it yet, as we still have the same feelings towards you, and you certainly didn't take the correct initiative to deal with it before/while it happened in Janurary.

 

[Willz]

Idaho fo life.
Keep yo **** on dawgs.

 

[knuttz45]

Idaho fo life.
Keep yo **** on dawgs.

sounds like a prison sentence....Qraq got idaho fo 4 years....

hows england? I don't work at that place anymore...so no more England for me. it was so fun...


turtlehoop: I could argue you for days and days and days about this, but lets keep this off the forums....

 

[gnosis]

As I've said before, I haven't looked into Brawl+ in a while, but when I played it, my friends and I agreed, landing a hit usually started a crazy long combo which would either be a kill or upwards of 80%. That is to say, far past Melee's combos.

So that first bit was probably your hint that your info's outdated and anything you said after it would also be outdated.

And I'm deeply offended that you would call low tiers "bland" and "boring"

Falcon and Link are tons of fun.

I didn't call low tiers bland and boring, but they often are. I could go into that but... eh, too much effort. I'll sum it up: they don't have enough good options so they have to rely on the same few tricks for almost every situation, other than a few gimmicky situations that usually only work due to the opponent's lack of experience with the matchup. Neutering top tiers leaves you with the same result. This is speaking from the point of view of high level play, so sure, Link might be fun when you can get away with stuff, but not so much if you're playing to win against someone who knows how to beat a Link.

edit: I'm speaking about Link hypothetically. If you feel like you can argue specifics with Link to try and disprove what I said, don't bother; my guess is you'll be talking about Brawl and I wouldn't know. So if it bothers you replace it with any bad Melee character, or some other bad Brawl character, or whatever. It's a general argument that I could provide specifics for for a lot of characters but I don't wanna bother : P.

 

[Turtlehoop]

You could argue for days and days and lose, because you could never answer the fact that you don't know the full story and were not personally involved like we were in Mountain Home. That ends the argument right there.

 

[QraQ]

Ok this thread has turned into alot of bull****.

Brandon you're arrogant.
Brian you're hopeless.

And Brawl+ may not be balanced YET [keyword yet]. But it has potential to be a great game. A game that can be modified can be balanced. Simple.

P.S. T.Hoop keep your MH squabbles off of SWF.

 

[scarykid78]

I love Brawl+ and Brawl. And your mom. We should have another Melee/Brawl/+ tourney sooooon! :D

Edit: Knuttz I'll text you peoples numbers NOW!

 

[Mecakoto]

I've done some serious thinking. It ranges from logistics to gameplay probablility to what fun means to me and even probability. I've started to consider Brawl+ as a possible gameplay option. If it DOES get a final code-set, it will no doubt become a tournament standard. It has the potential to do that, I am sure. There are even options to get it without having to own Twilight Princess...

We'll see.