Ice Climbers MU Discussion

[bubbaking]

Normally yes, but in this MU, it's a lot less risk for for more reward. Watch my set vs Phresh. I've played this MU in Melee a lot against high-level ICs, as well. When you have a missile zooming towards an opponent or a bomb about to fall on him, the grab becomes a lot easier to land. This is even more the case against ICs because they tend to remain grounded, and they have a hard time dealing with missiles without shielding or dodging them. This is pretty standard for a lot of MUs, though. What really makes the grab even easier against ICs is the constant delay Nana always has. After shieldstun, Popo may dodge the grab, but Nana ends up nabbed anyway. Btw, it's not the range that keeps Samus from being punished for landing grabs, it's the fact that her throws are fast and direct; all the directions, barring uthrow, are good at hitting someone else with the throw. Personally, I prefer dthrow. When you bop one of the climbers on the ground, it usually hits the other one if he's too close, and then you get a sweet free combo + separation. Regardless of all this, ICs don't really get big punishes out of Samus in PM. It's scarier in Melee 'cause of wobbling, but Samus can escape dthrow > dair, so you've gotta try super hard to mix up your combo game.

 

[Boiko]

Gonna confirm that Samus' grab is a good tool in this MU, especially with how often she forces ICs into shield, and like Bubbaking said, the delay on Nana, allowing you to more often than not, net a grab. And even if you whiff, their punish is usually pretty mediocre. If you're at like 100%+, you can die to charged up smash, but that's about it.

 

[941]

My ICs MU tier list (characters are organized within tiers from better MU to worse MU)-
Very Good :
Good :
Somewhat Good:
~Even-
Somewhat Bad:
Bad:
Very Bad:

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Could you guys elaborate on the Zelda and Yoshi MUs?

 

[Hylian]

Could you guys elaborate on the Zelda and Yoshi MUs?

I haven't really played a zelda, but I just played a good yoshi last weekend in tournament:

http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/681962743

The only experience I had to go off of was brawl. It felt like a losing match-up for sure, but not unwinnable by any means.

 

[941]

Could you guys elaborate on the Zelda and Yoshi MUs?

I would say Zelda has the advantage over ICs. It's a pretty campy MU, but Zelda definitely has the tools to separate them and get rid of Nana pretty early, and Sopo can't really do much to Zelda. ICs punish game on Zelda is OK, and they can KO Her somewhat early off the top on stages without high ceilings. It's probably around 60:40 in Zelda's favor.

 

[FirewaterDM]

My ICs MU tier list (characters are organized within tiers from better MU to worse MU)-
Very Good :
Good :
Somewhat Good:
~Even-
Somewhat Bad:
Bad:
Very Bad:

I 100% agree with most of this, only ones i'm not totally convinced on are Falco, Squirtle and Shiek, I think IC's still do decently well vs. Falco, mostly because a lot of their tricks/benefits from Melee still exist, the MU feels the same but that could just be the Falco's I have had to fight. The shield pressure is a bit more than Melee imo, but i'm not too sure on why Falco is as bad as Wolf/Fox (who i definitely think are actually bad for IC's, Fox much more so than either Wolf or Falco).

Shiek I think we still beat her, other than IC's got a bit better in other things + no wobbling/mid-stage handoffs the MU seems the same.

Squirtle, from my experience is kinda bad. Blizzard wall might work to keep him out, not too sure if it beats the withdraw armor or not, but the hard part from what I've seen is actually catching up to/hitting him, combo game is easy but he actually seems to have a rather easy time seperating Nana. This though could just be me having issues personally with that MU.

Other than those things, I completely agree with this matchup list lol. Would think you can add Samus/Fox/Rob to that list. I did see Phresh kinda body one of MD/VA's more active Rob's this weekend but seems like that Rob could legit be a troubling matchup.


And would agree- Zelda isn't fun, prob need to camp, but even then Zelda's kinda hard to deal with from what i've seen.

 

[Hylian]

I think IC's beat or go even with Rob. They can kill him much easier than most characters can and his projectiles are easy to deal with.

 

[941]

I 100% agree with most of this, only ones i'm not totally convinced on are Falco, Squirtle and Shiek, I think IC's still do decently well vs. Falco, mostly because a lot of their tricks/benefits from Melee still exist, the MU feels the same but that could just be the Falco's I have had to fight. The shield pressure is a bit more than Melee imo, but i'm not too sure on why Falco is as bad as Wolf/Fox (who i definitely think are actually bad for IC's, Fox much more so than either Wolf or Falco).

Shiek I think we still beat her, other than IC's got a bit better in other things + no wobbling/mid-stage handoffs the MU seems the same.

Squirtle, from my experience is kinda bad. Blizzard wall might work to keep him out, not too sure if it beats the withdraw armor or not, but the hard part from what I've seen is actually catching up to/hitting him, combo game is easy but he actually seems to have a rather easy time seperating Nana. This though could just be me having issues personally with that MU.

Other than those things, I completely agree with this matchup list lol. Would think you can add Samus/Fox/Rob to that list. I did see Phresh kinda body one of MD/VA's more active Rob's this weekend but seems like that Rob could legit be a troubling matchup.


And would agree- Zelda isn't fun, prob need to camp, but even then Zelda's kinda hard to deal with from what i've seen.

I definitely think ICs do better against Wolf than Falco, mostly because they can CC Wolf's shine to pretty high percents and he has to be a lot more careful and precise while pressuring them. I also think Falco is a lot better against Sopo than Wolf.

Sheik does a lot better against ICs in PM than Melee because needles will go through blizzards and ice blocks, and She still punishes them pretty hard. ICs can still D-throw CG to a pretty good percent, but it's easy to miss a regrab if the Sheik mixes up Her DI, and ICs can't wobble after getting the regrabs. Sheik can also ban FD every game, so that helps too.

You could be right about Squirtle. I haven't seen that MU play out much, so I don't know much about the nuances.

 

[Phresh123]

I think IC's beat or go even with Rob. They can kill him much easier than most characters can and his projectiles are easy to deal with.

100% Facts. The only problem in this matchup besides lazers and Gyro is down smash. This is relatively an easy matchup if you weave in and out of his air game and capitalize with up airs. I've beaten every ROB main I've encountered in money matches ranging from $5 to $50.

ZELDA IS A GAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

Literally hate that matchup but its winnable. Can't camp Zelda all day without her approaching with her neutral B. Her bair game is super OP. Best bet is to mix up desync blizzard and ice block to lead into a nice grab, stay synced alot and use upairs frequently. Use upsmash to killm off top. Do not become predictable in this match, because Zelda can literally spam neutral B and that right there hinders us. Her favor 60/40.

 

[Hylian]

I'm pretty sure you can WD OoS jab -> grab/smash her Nb. Try it out.

 

[941]

You definitely can, but most Zeldas won't intentionally neutral-B on shield. It's a lot harder to deal with when She uses it at mid-range to stuff any potential approaches or projectiles, which you can still punish, but you have to read it and/or have very fast reaction times. A frame-perfect aerial Neutral-B is -5 on shield, which isn't really punishable if Zelda spaces it properly.

 

[Phresh123]

Here's a match vs a good Zelda at Blacklisted. I won the set but notice how annoying her simple moves can be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuXF5xs2DcE

Here's my match vs Luigi in Losers where I lost and placed 9th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lstRRG6I-w

Two matchups I really despise although they are winnable.

 

[941]

Yeah, floaties in general aren't that fun to play against because you can't really keep combos going if they have decent DI, but most of them can do a lot to ICs off of a hit-confirm, so you have to win neutral a lot more than against non-floaties (D3 and ROB may be an exception due to being very large).

 

[Life]

So I'm a Pit player trying to figure out the ICs matchup. One thing that's bugging me is that most of my best punishes come off grabs, yet this isn't really possible on ICs since you grab one and the other just hits you for it. Pit also doesn't have much in the way of non-grab answers to shield. So basically, how do I crack open ICs in a way that maximizes my punish potential without just getting shield grabbed? The only thing I can figure is that arrow forces ICs to desync, which lets you separate them more easily, but arrowing close enough to actually take advantage of that state loses to shield->WDOOS. My puny little daggers don't outrange your hammers from most angles, so my Marth instincts to outspace them doesn't help much here.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys, anyone got advice for the Falcon MU? I just can't seem to deal with him even when I go aggro after getting a grab on him, and he's so good at seperating Nana. ;-;

 

[ilysm]

Well, if you're having trouble with an aggressive Falcon, a good strategy can be to get a read on his jumping patterns, then wavedash beneath him -> utilt to stuff his aerial approaches. It can be really tricky at first but it is rewarding, considering an utilt generally leads into a grab and/or juggle, especially on Falcon.

 

[Hylian]

SH bair is also really good against falcon, especially from a WD.

I also struggle vs falcon though.

 

[FirewaterDM]

Main thing with Falcon is either keep him out, through Blizzard or Ice Blocks, or keep him above him- for as cool as Dair is, I know that Up Air messes with Falcon, Up Tilt might as well- the hard part is if he gets to nana, but honestly, if you can keep him out other than when you want a grab, you'll be ok, Knees or Raptor Boosts hurt if you get hit solely for the separation factor.

But either way if you get him offstage you should either get the kill or a bunch of damage. You can play aggro or campy versus falcon imo, but it honestly depends on the falcon themselves. One factor that isn't as noticeable but still matters is that this MU is very momentum dependent- if you let falcon control the pace/tempo you lose, so you gotta do what you need to do to keep him out.

MU's still a lot harder in PM than it is in Melee though just because falcon is overall better.

 

[ilysm]

Anyone have tips on Metaknight? I'm getting the creeping impression that the matchup essentials are similar to Brawl (he pressures them hard and separates them easy) but I don't want to jump to conclusions without learning more. In particular I'm having a lot of trouble keeping Nana close and punishing shield crossups. Should I keep trying to pressure him once he crosses me up, or simply roll/WD away and try and get a desync wall up to get my bearings? What are the best ways to limit his movement in order to prevent him from running at me with quick, transcendent aerials and killing Nana before I can blink twice? His aerials feel difficult to challenge, but I assume there are openings I'm not seeing.

 

[Hylian]

I play it similar to brawl. WD OoS is super good though when he touches you.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Link is a butthead. I fought him on FD today, got messed up pretty bad. What can I do to get around him? I was heavily camped, and couldn't even get in to get a grab most of the time. Help me please.

 

[941]

You just have to be really patient and be willing to camp also. He has a lot of tools to keep you out, but He is combo food once you get in. Link generally doesn't have a lot of good options on shield either, so don't be too afraid to shield more and look for opportunities to wavedash out of shield and punish (I'd give some more specific suggestions but I haven't played this MU much outside of Melee).

 

[Kerfuffle]

Figured I'd do a makeshift MU chart for IC's as I see it.

70-30:

60-40:

40-60:

Avoid at all costs:

Anybody not mentioned is even or I don't know enough about it.

I think ICs biggest issue is there MU spread, and the PMDT needs to either up their tools to deal with the awful MUs, or we will continue to be one of the less successful characters in the game.

 

[ilysm]

I would say Tink is definitely worse than Ivysaur and maybe even Peach. No real opinion on the rest, though I agree that the MU spread is their major weakness. It generally boils down to chasing people down and getting in, and we just need good movement options to get around that really.

 

[941]

I feel like ICs are really susceptible to being walled-out, but they can do the same thing to a lot of characters, which means that many MUs force both players to camp and wait for the other to make a mistake. It would be nice if they had more ways to get in and fewer ways to keep people out.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I hear people complain about Tink a lot, but I've never played a good one, so i'm just going off instinct I guess on that one.

 

[ilysm]

Makes sense. It seems to me that Tink is essentially Peach but faster and with bombs. I think Peach is worse than Tink on stages without top platforms, but on stages with top platforms, Tink is murder.

 

[FirewaterDM]

Figured I'd do a makeshift MU chart for IC's as I see it.

70-30:

60-40:

40-60:

Avoid at all costs:

Anybody not mentioned is even or I don't know enough about it.

I think ICs biggest issue is there MU spread, and the PMDT needs to either up their tools to deal with the awful MUs, or we will continue to be one of the less successful characters in the game.

I agree with this, though to be honest I don't actually hate Ivy that much, MU's hard but doable but it isn't on Peach/TL level imo. Also Samus should be on the Avoid tier.

But our matchup spread is definitely IC"s biggest issue at this point. We lose to a good 40% of the cast minimum, or even worse and unless the Developers completely change the character or returns full handoffs to IC's, (neither of which will happen) that's a sad reality we just have to deal with. because the way the character is designed, there are lots of characters who have the tools in PM to deal with that style.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I say ivy is that bad for a couple reasons. Double the heals, razor leaf completely stops ice blocks AND keeps going through, SDI up gets her out of chain grabs, the vortex that is nair.. Its just an up hill battle.

 

[Volume AF]

I feel like Mario should be in the 40-60 MU. He's fast enough to pressure on shield with jabs and fairs and down smash is a real #*%# to deal with at all times. Too floaty for midstage chain grabs and can gimp the climbers really easy.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I agree. Buddy of mine plays a good Mario. Literally nair and dsmash. So easy to get separated. Not to mention he's in that dumb floaty mid weight class that is increasingly hard to chain grab.

 

[Volume AF]

My ICs MU tier list (characters are organized within tiers from better MU to worse MU)-
Very Good :
Good :
Somewhat Good:
~Even-
Somewhat Bad:
Bad:
Very Bad:

In this list I would put these changes:

Somewhat Good: Sheik & Pit

SWB: Squirtle, Jiggs, MK, Snake, ROB

Bad: Mario, G&W

Studying the MU more you find these little quirks each of these characters have over IC's, but of course this is how I would arrange my TL

 

[941]

I don't really know much about the MUs against Pit, Squirtle, ROB or MK, so those are probably a bit off. I think Sheik does pretty well against ICs in PM because Needles go through blizzard and that allows Her to camp them well while also being able to punish them really hard (ICs do punish Sheik really hard too though). I put Puff at ~Even because I think ICs have a slight advantage over Puff in Melee, but without wobbling they don't punish quite as well so the MU is close to even and probably very slightly in favor of Puff. I put Mario really close to Bad, so I don't think it would be a big change to move Him. I do agree that G&W should probably be moved down considerably though. The more I see what G&W can do, the more I think that He has the advantage over ICs as long as he doesn't get baited into doing something unsafe like approaching with D-air.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Sheik is in ICs favor. She gets most of her damage off grabs and has a hard time landing one when you can just dsmash her out of it. She's also that weird fall speed that is super easy to CG on with ICs. Not to mention edgeguarding her is absolute cake with our ledge dash down smash. She doesn't have much in her favor for this MU, and what she does, we can shut down super easy.

 

[Kerfuffle]

After playing a MI top 10 snake last week, I can also firmly say ICs and Snake go fairly even. If you keep projectile pressure out, he has a hard time getting a grenade out. His approach options are not great, so just playing keep away until you get a grab makes it pretty easy. If you're dumb and mindlessly attack his shield, youre gonna have a bad time though. Easy separation with up b and grenades into an easy Nana kill.

 

[Volume AF]

Yay my findings are proving right with Kerkuffle :D except I made a mistake to where snake was either even or SWB lol

 

[ilysm]

So I bumped into Umbreon in a WDW stream chat and conversed a little about the Sheik MU. He thinks it's better in PM that it was in Melee, mainly because Sheik's throws are quicker and harder to interrupt. What I'd like to add on to that is that in PM her throws serve more of a conventional throw -> followup flow chart better than the Melee throw -> jab or throw -> grab or throw -> tech chase, which can make it easier for her to separate them. I still think it's pretty good for Icies because Sheik doesn't have as many abusable things in neutral as some of the old Melee characters do and gets so messed up out of a grab that we almost don't need wobbling (between dthrow -> dtilt, dthrow -> dair, and just plain dthrow chaingrab, we're not hurting for punishes on Sheik; plus fair spike is really good on her above 60% provided she doesn't have a wall to tech off of).

We also chatted about edge-guarding a bit. My favorite bit to do against Sheik is roll back desync -> Nana jump -> roll again to have Nana drift back and grab ledge. This has done amazing stuff for me against Sheik and tethers in particular, as I can just make Popo walk up to Sheik as she reappears and basically do whatever I want. Umbreon pointed out to me that there's a brief window of time wherein Sheik can hold away from the edge and then quickly back in in order to do the full vanish/reappear animation, regardless of how close she is to the ledge. The idea is to bait out a roll from ledge and then fake your opponent out and grab it. I'm thinking we could possibly have Nana grab ledge, wait for the beginning of the vanish animation, then Popo sheild to cause Nana to roll from ledge and avoid the vanishing hitbox -> Popo WD OOS to ledge before Sheik reappears. Then we could do standard get up -> grab, waveland onstage -> dsmash, ledgehop fair, etc. to punish Sheik if she decides to go for the stage. This is theory crafting, but I'll try to test it when I have the time. I'm just jotting this all down as I remember if before I get back to studying. Make of it what you will!

 

[Kerfuffle]

There is a much faster way of getting Nana to the ledge actually. If you simply go into a run animation, turn around near the ledge and hold shield, she'll drop right on while you stay on stage.

 

[ilysm]

Kerfuffle Ah, I'd forgotten about that! What I like about the roll back method is that it gives Popo some time to walk forward while Nana is drifting back to the ledge. It lets you punish tethers a little better because you can just turn around -> grab. Plus, in this instance, it can keep Popo safe from Sheik's vanishing hitbox near the ledge. Thank you for reminding me of that though!