Ice Climbers MU Discussion

[941]

Anyone know anything about the sonic vs ic's mu?

I'm by no means a great IC's player, but I've played this MU a few times and I can share my thoughts:

Sonic doesn't have many ways to approach so try to camp with Ice blocks and you should be able to counter any aggressive moves with either a shield>grab or a desync>blizzard. His air game is pretty good so try keep him on the ground. His Fair is decently reliable meteor so be careful around the ledge. Basically, if you use ice blocks and blizzard to keep a little bit of space between you and Sonic this MU should be in IC's favor.

I've been having some trouble with heavier characters (mostly Gannon and Ike) recently so if anyone can help me out with those MUs I would appreciate it.

 

[zFrost]

dthrow chain grab heavy chars :D

 

[941]

dthrow chain grab heavy chars :D

I can usually do that against Bowser and Charizard, but I have a hard time using it against others like Gannon and Ike.

 

[zFrost]

rly? it's just about reading di imo, i have a harder time against light characters in general bcuz i can't do as many grab combos

 

[941]

Light characters can DI the Dair far enough to avoid being re-grabbed most of the time. The problem I have is that heavy characters with smaller models seem to be able to DI far enough as well. My biggest problem is those characters are harder for me to combo in general and have an easier time separating and KOing the Ice Climbers.

 

[Sharkz]

I'm interested on what people think of the mu's that IC's struggle with in Melee such as Mewtwo, Peach, Fox, Mario (to an extent), and a couple others. Do y'all think it's the same as Melee or does the IC's improved neutral help in 3.5?

 

[941]

I'm not sure about 3.5 Mewtwo, but 3.0 Mewtwo was a pretty unfavorable MU because he was a lot stronger than he was in Melee. The fact that Nana tries to recover after being separated from Popo seems to make the Fox MU a little bit better but I would still say it's 50/50 at best. I don't have much experience against Peach or Mario in either game so I can't really say much about them.

 

[Hylian]

I posted my thoughts on every match-up here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-595#post-18263121

 

[941]

Any advice for playing against Marth/Roy? I can't seem to find a good response to them throwing out tilts and N-airs because even if they miss it's hard to punish before they can attack again.

 

[zFrost]

if they're just throwing out moves u can probly just wavedash into shield

 

[Sharkz]

A friend of mine was trying to teach me the IC v Marth mu in Melee a few weeks ago. A few things I learned:

When Marth is on the ledge, it's really hard to punish him. He can easily nair you from ledge which will separate you then he'll have a worry free get up from the ledge. The best thing to do is probably stand back and desync ice blocks or something similar.

If Nana's gone and it's Sopo only, dthrow might not be the best option if you've grabbed him and he's at decently high percent. Marth's quick aerials may be able to reach you before you can follow up. A good alternative is to uthrow Marth and bait him to take his double jump. IC's may have a hard time getting to the ground when above Marth, but the same can be said vice versa. Once he's used up his second jump, go after him hard and keep juggling him as long as you can or punish his landing.

Dtilt is a freaking scary move, but there are a couple ways around it. One of them is SHFair. You have to be confident using this though. While it's a great punish, you have to know that that's what the Marth will throw out. Being in the air is extremely scary against Marth and you may be wide open for a fsmash. Use with caution. Also in Melee, wdash back>ftilt will clank with dtilt which helps stop that spam.

Ftilt is a good approach since you need more range to compete with Marth. Same with RAR bairs. Going in just trying to grab is a quick way to lose a stock.

Sorry, I don't know too much about the Roy matchup yet but I'll see what I can learn about it.

Oh, and please wavedash oos punish all his raw fsmashes. Free grab punishes for days.

Edit: Here's a copy/paste of the Marth MU on the Melee IC's board. Of course there's differences b/t the two games and this mu thread is a few years old, but there's definitely a few things to take away from it.

Spoiler

Watch Out For:

• His sword (lol). Has amazing reach and priority
• Forward air is tough to get around. If he does retreating fairs all you can really do is keep pushing him to an edge where you have an advantage, its very unsafe to try and attack him while he is doing retreating fairs because he spaces enough to keep away from you. When he approaches you with them you can sometimes get a shield grab or a safe roll behind him. Against rising fairs feel free to time a good dash attack and keep him above you.
• his forward smash goes through iceblocks so make sure you are far enough away if you choose to use them against him. It is punishable if he hits your shield with anything but the tip by wavedashing out of your shield.
• His down is very fast and is has IASA frames that he can use to really take advantage of your reaction to it, counter these with short hopped fairs or by getting inside and CC and low percents into grabs.
• His utilt is really quick and has a huge arch above him, you CANNOT get through a properly timed u-tilt with a fair or a dair, so try your best to never be above Marth.

Don't:

• Never approach Marth from above.
• Attack recklessly
• Don't miss any attacks
• Ice block much, Marth cuts through you and your projectiles.

Do:

• Dash dance a lot.
• Blizzard frequently, he has no projectile and this is tough for him to approach.
• Keep below or behind him if at all possible, his priority in front and above him are more or less unbeatable.

Tips:

From Wobbles

his d-tilts are beatable with short hopped f-air if you space it, you can shield grab or down-smash him out of his grabs, CC his forward+b into grabs or rolls, and shield his f-smash into wavedash out of shield. Once you can do all that, it just becomes figuring out what he plans to do... unfortunately, I'm not sure what to do about the f-airs. If he retreats with them, he becomes very very safe. If IC's weren't so slidy, I'd recommend playing attrition using CC's against them, just because one f-air compared a grab or smash is way more advantageous.

If he APPROACHES with f-air, then dash dance grab becomes viable, but if he stays in one spot or just retreats using it I can't seem to beat it. I suppose you could WD in with your shield up and try to get him to push himself to the edge of the stage where you can try to RPS some of his above options.... or use the double shield to mess up his timing on SHDF-air, or his double jump after... basically anything to fluster him and force him to pick options you can easily punish.

I do know that if he does a RISING f-air and you space it you can get dash attacks, so that's something to keep in mind.

fighting Marth is hard

Fortunately, there are methods and tricks.

First off, his d-tilt is really good, but you have a simple answer to it, which is SHFFL'ed F-air. It requires moderately good spacing to achieve, but you can hop over the tip with your f-air. Odds are he'll CC and you can have a free d-smash, jab grab, or tech-chase.

It's also possible to wavedash in from a distance and grab him to punish when he misses, but you need to predict both the spacing and timing of the tilt, as well as execute a long wavedash. I don't think it's worth it to try this, really.

His f-airs are the devil, but again, spacing and timing is how you can beat him.

First off, the f-air is punishable as long as it barely misses you. You can slip in with dash attacks and grabs, or if you're really sneaky, wave-smashes. Another trick is to use long wavedashes into shield to try and make him land a deep hit on your shield. This reduces hit stun and almost guarantees a shield-grab.

His f-smash is really good. The answer is do your best to shield it, then wavedash from your shield to punish. Any Marth that uses the f-smash too much will lose to you purely from grabs.

His grab game is strong, but defeatable. The hard part about it is that he has massive range on the grab and your shield is very important to you as an IC player... but if you keep a couple tips in mind, you can probably punish his grabs pretty well.

1) If he grabs Nana, smash him or grab him during lag. You can shield grab his throws if you're in close enough.

2) If he grabs YOU... keep shielding with Nana and have HER shield grab instead. If he throws you anywhere but up, you should recover soon enough to combo off her grab.

His forward+b is really good. Fortunately, the first hit or two are susceptible to crouch canceling. You can get CC'ed grabs if he only decides to do the first hit, or CC into your shield and a shield grab if he keeps going. Remember that the different forward+b's make him move around a lot, so you need to consider where his body goes when he does the different attacks. Sometimes you can grab and the ending animation will pull him or push him out of reach. And they hit in weird places on your shield too, so watch out for that as well.

I also strongly believe that blizzard is one of your best friends. Try and have Nana blizzard from rolls and dodges, have her Nanapult to a) land blizzard hits and b) act as bait that lets you land whatever opener fits the situation.

I don't really have a good method for edgeguarding him, but I'm toying with some weird ideas ATM. I'll post about them if they wind up panning out.
Does this help a little? It's very much a spacing battle and that's hard considering Marth's reach, but I believe it to be winnable.
From Binx:
Against Marth, his jabs are unpunishable from certain ranges, his fair is unpunishable unless he DI's toward you, if he does that then it is punishable with really tight timing with a dash dance grab. His dtilt can be punished with a fair but if you call it wrong you get fair'd or grabbed or utilted. His forward smash is always punishable, off your shield with a WD, or off a wiff the same way, his forward tilt can't be punished unless you shield it at very close ranges.

Against Marth the ONLY way I've found to really beat them even occasionally, and believe me its HARD (this match will make you a really good Ice Climber player even if you lose) is to get into a situation where they are closer to an edge than you and you have the middle of the stage, if you can get in this position then you can make Marth approach you a little bit and it opens up damage, other than that he is untouchable, beat his full jumps with uairs, also hit with uairs if he is ever on a platform.

For the love of christ stay below him at all costs, don't get knocked off the edge cause you can't recover against a good Marth, keep trying and mixing up your recovery, pray he messes up and make sure you get some damage off afterwards.

This is the only match that I believe positioning is this important, because you can't hurt Marth if he doesn't approach you need to be able to pressure him into attacking, Chu likes to bait with auto canceled uairs, a good option. If you find yourself in a desynch I like to pult Nana but not far, if just the tip of her blizzard hits and they don't expect it you can open up a window to some damage, blizzard outranges all of Marth's moves. When I am at the edge of the stage and Marth is pressuring me I like to do a short hop blizzard with both climbers, I've still yet to be punished in any way for doing this and it sometimes gets them to give you a few more pixels of room afterwards while they think, I don't overuse this and I don't know how it can be punished because I've always caught my opponents by surprise with it, even my closest friends, I would love to hear some stories on this being used lemme know if it's effective for you (a warning though, if you use this and don't hit with at least some of it, you can get dash attacked or probably grabbed after using it, so make sure not to miss).

From nealdt:
"At 0 percent, a d-throw f-air combo will knock Marth back to you and leave him standing for a free grab + maybe a wobble; at higher percents, follow the f-air with a Popo d-smash for some good damage and knockback. D-throw to nair is also a good combo at lower percents; if they DI your throw away, a running shuffled nair will set up for another grab."

 

[941]

Thanks, I'll definitely try some of the approaches you suggested, as all the ones I've tried so far have just led to bad things. I've played Roy a few times and in my experience he's like Marth only harder. His D-tilt pops you up instead of pushing you away and he can punish you harder for trying to grab because his sword is stronger at the hilt than the tip.

 

[Sharkz]

In the lab tonight practicing handoffs against Marth and Roy and I might have found a really stupid edgeguard with Sopo against Roy. I don't know if this is true at all cause I don't have another person to test this with at the moment. So if someone can help test this theory out that'd be great.

CG roy at low % until you get to the very edge. Grab release. Turnaround glitch to immediately grab the ledge. Insta edgeguard as Roy falls extremely low being released.

Edit: I'm dumb, forgot that you could hold up for the upward grab release, lol. Don't worry about this unless your trying to get a cheesy stock on someone that isn't expecting it.

 

[941]

Any advice for beating Ness or Wolf? I know about gimping Ness with ice blocks and CCing Wolf's shine, but that's about all I know about them.

 

[Sharkz]

So I played against Sonic mains the last two tournaments I've been to. I refuse to ever do it again with Ice Climbers. It's awful. I feel like I have to completely change my playstyle just for that one character, and I'm not really sure how to do so.

 

[zFrost]

ice blocks and freeze a lot?

 

[Sharkz]

Dash dance can bait out and punish my blizzard. Ice blocks are meh, and it seems sonic can just jump over them and punish my lag. My weakest part of ic's are definitely special moves so it could be just me.

 

[941]

Try to use desynced ice blocks. If Sonic short hops you can use jabs/f-tilts/f-smashes, and if he full jumps or double jumps you can follow up with u-airs or b-airs because they have enough disjoint that Sonic shouldn't be able to beat them.

 

[Foxy K]

So @ Hylian posted his opinions on the 3.5 MUs that I think should be added to the first post (@ KingDozie ). They're very helpful and a good starting place for everyone. I would like to focus on finding a secondary to deal with their worst matchups, which are Peach, Toon Link, and Samus (the three worst) and after that, Snake, Luigi, G&W, Ivy, Yoshi, and sigh, Fox (although there are a few more bad ones, these definitely seem the toughest).

Spoiler

Opponent : IC's

: 65/35 Shine hurts...shine hurts a lot. This match-up is similar to melee except with more neutral options and less punish options.
: 60/40 A bit easier solely because dsmash gimps are real and CC shine -> dsmash helps greatly.
: 45/55 IC's win this match-ups very slightly due to their massive punish game on shiek out of CC. Converting a grab into a kill is a non-issue on this character and you play around fair walls with desynch icebock/blizzard.
: 60/40 Similar to melee, IC's have great OoS punish's on falcos laser game but still have a hard time dealing with pressure and saving nana once hit due to her not DIing shine.
: 45/55 IC's have a great neutral game against marth and many grab/smash punishes OoS. Marth is hard to chaingrab center stage but super easy to juggle/edgeguard.
: 60/40 This match-up is really hard because lucario is elusive and gains double charge against IC's letting him kind of go crazy with aura.
: 50/50 Somewhat similar to marth but a bit harder solely because dtilt destroying nana while marths dtilt is just kind of annoying.
: 50/50 Very easy to kill M2 off the top out of a grab, not hard to cover neutral options against teleport because of desynchs, great OoS punishes against the character.
: 55/45 A very volatile match-up, lucas destroys IC's on hit but he's somewhat easy to grab and very easy to chaingrab.
: 40/60 Desynched iceblocks make it so sonic stops spinning. When sonic stops spinning...just hit him. Uairs stuff homing attak, nair beats every one of sonics approach options, you play more aerial in this match-up than others.
: 55/45 IC's have some sick desynchs with bananas and this match-up plays out pretty similar to brawls. It's really hard for IC's but with experience becomes closer to even. Knowing to instant throw is a must.
: 45/55 IC's mitigate pits throw combos extremely well, and pit doesn't have much in the way of mitigating theirs. His aerial momentum isn't great which leads to him getting uair'd a ton in matches and he's easy to kill from a grab.
: 60/40 My god Snake is annoying. His bthrow is great against IC's and he's super good at killing nana and just disrupting the flow of IC's gameplay. Synched ice blocks are good in this match-ups, don't desynch as much as others.
: 70/30 It's like melee but Ic's can't wobbles. RIP IC's.
: 60/40 GW's lingering hitboxes and quirky playstyle are hard for IC's to deal with. They can't combo/juggle/edgeguard this character well and have no chaingrabs but handoffs which are super hard on GW.
: 50/50 IC's have some great CG's on MK and some great grab set-ups against him, mk rebels by edgeguarding the **** out of them.
: 40/60 IC's just kind of want to walk around slowly in this match-up and use their hitboxs to stuff out anything wario does. WDing around a lot gets you shoulder bashed and bitten. Chaingrabs are pretty good against wario and hand-offs are easy.
: 60/40 Marios mobility, fireballs, and edgeguarding are just really hard for IC's to deal with considering IC's punish game on Mario is rather weak.
: 65/35 This match-up is almost as hard as Peach with Samus's upgraded kit. Dsmash is hard to deal with, they have no cg's but difficult hand-offs, and missiles are nana-magnets
: 60/40 It's basically the same as melee.
: 55/45 quirky match-up, IC's can cg rob pretty easily but his playstyle is really disruptive and it can be problematic for IC's in neutral.
: 60/40 It's like playing against falcon but not as scary and you can't really chaingrab or even hand-off her, you just try to hit her with smashes in neutral.
: 60/40 Ivy is nana's worst dream but aside from that even popo is pretty good against her with easy combos and OoS punish options.
: 45/55 Pretty even match-up, IC's often just sacrifice nana for an easy smash kill against puff.
: 40/60 IC's love big characters, the chaingrabs are easy, 0-deaths come naturally, juggling is great, charizards huge hitboxes and great punish game help him a lot however.
: 70/30 Imagine if peach was harder for IC's to catch and also had bombs. ... ... yeah ;_;.
: 45/55 Hard to grab combo kirby but easy for IC's to kill. They play this match-up from center stage and synched.
: 50/50 Ic's have great punishes on ike and vise-versa, not too much to say about this one. Aim to juggle ike and ice block edgeguard.
: 60/40 IC's have 0 combos on luigi and luigi can out maneuver them in neutral, it's a nightmare really. Jab is amazing in this match-up and you get milage from jab->dsmash.
: 60/40 Yoshi just kind of doesn't care what IC's do to him because nana just dies instantly in this match-up, it's very frustrating.
: 40/60 Similar to the zard match-up.
: 60/40 Ganons terrifying hitboxes give popo nightmares about nana dying to one hit repeatedly.
: 40/60 Ic's outrange, out combo, and out-kill pikachu. Pika is pretty great at edgeguarding them however so you need to be careful.
: 50/50 An annoying match-up for both characters, PK fire is hard to deal with but Ic's can gimp ness absurdly easily with ice blocks.
: 35/65 This match-up is pretty free for IC's, it's really hard for DK not to get grabbed.
: 25/75 This is bowsers worst match-up by a long-shot. Bowser can do nothing to IC's without getting grabbed, and it's VERY easy to 0-death bowser off a grab.
: 60/40 Zelda is very disruptive to IC's play and they can't really combo or chaingrab her well.
: 45/55 Another match-up to play synched, ice blocks are very good but squirtle is hard to catch and has great mobility options against them.
: 55/45 If you can navigate the projectile field that is link you score some amazing chaingrabs and combos. Link is pretty easy for IC's to edgeguard as well.
: 35/65 lol olimar. Your moves all get destroyed by blizzard and you aren't even hard to combo.

Edit: Hylian, since you're so knowledgeable about this game in general, do you have any suggestion as far as a secondary to cover the ICs' bad MUs?

 

[941]

So @ Hylian posted his opinions on the 3.5 MUs that I think should be added to the first post (@ KingDozie ). They're very helpful and a good starting place for everyone. I would like to focus on finding a secondary to deal with their worst matchups, which are Peach, Toon Link, and Samus (the three worst) and after that, Snake, Luigi, G&W, Ivy, Yoshi, and sigh, Fox (although there are a few more bad ones, these definitely seem the toughest).

Spoiler

Opponent : IC's

: 65/35 Shine hurts...shine hurts a lot. This match-up is similar to melee except with more neutral options and less punish options.
: 60/40 A bit easier solely because dsmash gimps are real and CC shine -> dsmash helps greatly.
: 45/55 IC's win this match-ups very slightly due to their massive punish game on shiek out of CC. Converting a grab into a kill is a non-issue on this character and you play around fair walls with desynch icebock/blizzard.
: 60/40 Similar to melee, IC's have great OoS punish's on falcos laser game but still have a hard time dealing with pressure and saving nana once hit due to her not DIing shine.
: 45/55 IC's have a great neutral game against marth and many grab/smash punishes OoS. Marth is hard to chaingrab center stage but super easy to juggle/edgeguard.
: 60/40 This match-up is really hard because lucario is elusive and gains double charge against IC's letting him kind of go crazy with aura.
: 50/50 Somewhat similar to marth but a bit harder solely because dtilt destroying nana while marths dtilt is just kind of annoying.
: 50/50 Very easy to kill M2 off the top out of a grab, not hard to cover neutral options against teleport because of desynchs, great OoS punishes against the character.
: 55/45 A very volatile match-up, lucas destroys IC's on hit but he's somewhat easy to grab and very easy to chaingrab.
: 40/60 Desynched iceblocks make it so sonic stops spinning. When sonic stops spinning...just hit him. Uairs stuff homing attak, nair beats every one of sonics approach options, you play more aerial in this match-up than others.
: 55/45 IC's have some sick desynchs with bananas and this match-up plays out pretty similar to brawls. It's really hard for IC's but with experience becomes closer to even. Knowing to instant throw is a must.
: 45/55 IC's mitigate pits throw combos extremely well, and pit doesn't have much in the way of mitigating theirs. His aerial momentum isn't great which leads to him getting uair'd a ton in matches and he's easy to kill from a grab.
: 60/40 My god Snake is annoying. His bthrow is great against IC's and he's super good at killing nana and just disrupting the flow of IC's gameplay. Synched ice blocks are good in this match-ups, don't desynch as much as others.
: 70/30 It's like melee but Ic's can't wobbles. RIP IC's.
: 60/40 GW's lingering hitboxes and quirky playstyle are hard for IC's to deal with. They can't combo/juggle/edgeguard this character well and have no chaingrabs but handoffs which are super hard on GW.
: 50/50 IC's have some great CG's on MK and some great grab set-ups against him, mk rebels by edgeguarding the **** out of them.
: 40/60 IC's just kind of want to walk around slowly in this match-up and use their hitboxs to stuff out anything wario does. WDing around a lot gets you shoulder bashed and bitten. Chaingrabs are pretty good against wario and hand-offs are easy.
: 60/40 Marios mobility, fireballs, and edgeguarding are just really hard for IC's to deal with considering IC's punish game on Mario is rather weak.
: 65/35 This match-up is almost as hard as Peach with Samus's upgraded kit. Dsmash is hard to deal with, they have no cg's but difficult hand-offs, and missiles are nana-magnets
: 60/40 It's basically the same as melee.
: 55/45 quirky match-up, IC's can cg rob pretty easily but his playstyle is really disruptive and it can be problematic for IC's in neutral.
: 60/40 It's like playing against falcon but not as scary and you can't really chaingrab or even hand-off her, you just try to hit her with smashes in neutral.
: 60/40 Ivy is nana's worst dream but aside from that even popo is pretty good against her with easy combos and OoS punish options.
: 45/55 Pretty even match-up, IC's often just sacrifice nana for an easy smash kill against puff.
: 40/60 IC's love big characters, the chaingrabs are easy, 0-deaths come naturally, juggling is great, charizards huge hitboxes and great punish game help him a lot however.
: 70/30 Imagine if peach was harder for IC's to catch and also had bombs. ... ... yeah ;_;.
: 45/55 Hard to grab combo kirby but easy for IC's to kill. They play this match-up from center stage and synched.
: 50/50 Ic's have great punishes on ike and vise-versa, not too much to say about this one. Aim to juggle ike and ice block edgeguard.
: 60/40 IC's have 0 combos on luigi and luigi can out maneuver them in neutral, it's a nightmare really. Jab is amazing in this match-up and you get milage from jab->dsmash.
: 60/40 Yoshi just kind of doesn't care what IC's do to him because nana just dies instantly in this match-up, it's very frustrating.
: 40/60 Similar to the zard match-up.
: 60/40 Ganons terrifying hitboxes give popo nightmares about nana dying to one hit repeatedly.
: 40/60 Ic's outrange, out combo, and out-kill pikachu. Pika is pretty great at edgeguarding them however so you need to be careful.
: 50/50 An annoying match-up for both characters, PK fire is hard to deal with but Ic's can gimp ness absurdly easily with ice blocks.
: 35/65 This match-up is pretty free for IC's, it's really hard for DK not to get grabbed.
: 25/75 This is bowsers worst match-up by a long-shot. Bowser can do nothing to IC's without getting grabbed, and it's VERY easy to 0-death bowser off a grab.
: 60/40 Zelda is very disruptive to IC's play and they can't really combo or chaingrab her well.
: 45/55 Another match-up to play synched, ice blocks are very good but squirtle is hard to catch and has great mobility options against them.
: 55/45 If you can navigate the projectile field that is link you score some amazing chaingrabs and combos. Link is pretty easy for IC's to edgeguard as well.
: 35/65 lol olimar. Your moves all get destroyed by blizzard and you aren't even hard to combo.

Edit: Hylian, since you're so knowledgeable about this game in general, do you have any suggestion as far as a secondary to cover the ICs' bad MUs?

While I don't completely agree with all of these MU assessments, the best secondaries would obviously be characters like Fox or Roy, who don't have any terrible MUs. Since those characters might be a bit difficult for ICs players to learn, due to having different playstyles, I would suggest trying Mario or DDD as they seem have a more similar style to ICs.

 

[Hylian]

Sword characters are a good secondary for them as is shiek. Marth/Roy would probably be your best bet.

 

[Foxy K]

Sword characters are a good secondary for them as is shiek. Marth/Roy would probably be your best bet.

Awesome, Roy it is. You're the man, Hylian.

 

[Phresh123]

Lost in Grand Finals to Vanz(well known Melee player) and he went Toon Link.

Kept throwing bombs and It was hard for me to get in. Tried using desync's but the bombs was messing up my flow.

IC's vs TL? Thoughts?

 

[Hylian]

I think it's IC's worst match-up.

 

[FirewaterDM]

Had some issues playing against a Ness in tournament today, and I was wondering how do Ice Climbers go about that MU?

 

[Phresh123]

I think so too smfh, but I dont want to use my secondary. I feel IC's can win it but its very tough.

 

[941]

Lost in Grand Finals to Vanz(well known Melee player) and he went Toon Link.

Kept throwing bombs and It was hard for me to get in. Tried using desync's but the bombs was messing up my flow.

IC's vs TL? Thoughts?

ICs do have a D-throw CG on TL, but he's pretty fast and hard to grab. If TL abuses this MU by platform camping with bombs, there isn't much you can do besides try to read his movement and outplay him. If TL doesn't abuse the MU, just move around a lot, and try to bait something without desyncing too much (bombs will disrupt almost all desyncs) and try to grab him and CG to build damage and gain stage control.

Had some issues playing against a Ness in tournament today, and I was wondering how do Ice Climbers go about that MU?

I have a hard time with Ness as well. His aerial game seems really hard for ICs to deal with, and he can also proc PK Fire on Ice Blocks, which can stuff some of their better neutral options. ICs can gimp Ness pretty well with Ice Blocks, so if you can hit him out of his double-jump and force him to use PK thunder, you should be able to take the stock. Ness is a character you have to play pretty patiently against, because he can do a lot against ICs with just his basic neutral and spacing options. I wish I could give better advice about this MU, but the only times I've played it were tournament games, which I lost, so I haven't really been able to experiment or learn what works, but only learn things that don't work.

 

[Sharkz]

Thoughts on the Mario mu? I've found it really difficult for IC's (and a mindblock character against me in general). I'll probably go Pit in the mu, but I was curious what yall thought about it. I know Phresh has had a decent amount of Mario sets.

 

[Phresh123]

Mario can CC downsmash your squall hammer synced so watch out for it. Hard to desync blizzard when he has cape. Cape is good in this mu. Fight his fireballs with desync ice blocks.

Do not down throw dair chaingrab, mario can SDI the dair easily.

Try gimping his recovery with desync iceblocks. Wavedash jab is good as well.

 

[FirewaterDM]

So thinking about the converations in Social, I'm honestly curious. How does the IC's/Peach MU change from PM to Melee. to a level where it's ACTUALLY doable? I'm just curious on what tools are effective enough to stop Peach from absolutely destroying IC's. Only thing that I've thought of is maybe Blizzard, but even then Peach can get around it, even with desynchs, and Peach still has the capabilities to separate the two/kill nana rather early.

So for those of you better than me at this character, how does this work?

 

[Phresh123]

I honestly feel like I'm the best Ice Climbers in PM right now and have arguable wins to accomadate that.

Fumbles, Hylian, get at me.

 

[Sharkz]

If anyone's going to big house and brings a pm setup, I'm down for an ic ditto mm.

 

[Hylian]

I honestly feel like I'm the best Ice Climbers in PM right now and have arguable wins to accomadate that.

Fumbles, Hylian, get at me.

I haven't played in like 5 months, I have no doubt you/fumbles are better than me atm haha.

I still have all my knowledge, but I only play melee now for the most part. I'm entered into PM at Evo though so that should be fun. Will probably be going 100% IC's barring running into any peach players(They get the Link).

 

[941]

So thinking about the converations in Social, I'm honestly curious. How does the IC's/Peach MU change from PM to Melee. to a level where it's ACTUALLY doable? I'm just curious on what tools are effective enough to stop Peach from absolutely destroying IC's. Only thing that I've thought of is maybe Blizzard, but even then Peach can get around it, even with desynchs, and Peach still has the capabilities to separate the two/kill nana rather early.

So for those of you better than me at this character, how does this work?

I find that you have to play against Peach very differently than other characters, because WDing around is just going to get you D-smashed and slapped with aerials. I recommend watching Wobbles Vs. M2K at "Infinity and Beyond 18" to get an idea of how to play the MU (although ICs unfortunately can't wobble in PM, so don't try that). Generally, I suggest using platforms to take advantage of Peach's slow vertical mobility, and trying to F-air and/or N-air Her from above to hit Her out of float (don't try this while She's grounded though, or else you'll likely get CC D-Smashed). Above everything else, be patient! One hit from Peach can mean losing Nana or a stock, so be very careful with your spacing and approaches. This MU still sucks, but it's doable against all but the best Peach players if you can develop and execute a strong game plan.

 

[Phresh123]

I haven't played in like 5 months, I have no doubt you/fumbles are better than me atm haha.

I still have all my knowledge, but I only play melee now for the most part. I'm entered into PM at Evo though so that should be fun. Will probably be going 100% IC's barring running into any peach players(They get the Link).

Damn Hylian you need to def get active again man. Good seeing other players with such skill. Also wanted to speak on a certain matchup.. Samus lmao.

I went to Grand Finals and got 6-0 to a person I beat in winners, after he went all Samus. The fact that in stage handoffs are gone makes this mu so much harder. I may be forced to have a secondary now.

 

[Boiko]

Damn Hylian you need to def get active again man. Good seeing other players with such skill. Also wanted to speak on a certain matchup.. Samus lmao.

I went to Grand Finals and got 6-0 to a person I beat in winners, after he went all Samus. The fact that in stage handoffs are gone makes this mu so much harder. I may be forced to have a secondary now.

That sure is a hard match up, huh?

For you personally, use up smash more instead of fsmash when you have a grab combo. You fsmashed me at 144% and I lived, up smash would have killed. You get super frazzled when your climbers are separated and I took advantage of that. Whenever I separated them I began to put missile pressure on while closing the gap between us. Pretty often I would clip you with a missile when you were retreating to save Nana and one of you would end up dying.

 

[Phresh123]

That sure is a hard match up, huh?

For you personally, use up smash more instead of fsmash when you have a grab combo. You fsmashed me at 144% and I lived, up smash would have killed. You get super frazzled when your climbers are separated and I took advantage of that. Whenever I separated them I began to put missile pressure on while closing the gap between us. Pretty often I would clip you with a missile when you were retreating to save Nana and one of you would end up dying.

However you can CC squall and most of my arieals, di out the down throw dair, and you can live long (though i messed up with the fsmashes great DI on your end.) The problem im having and the same with Bubba is that I cant get close to you, and when I do, I cant apply much damage. I dont wanna switch
off because I do remember winning before in 3.5 lmfao, but I need to find a way to get in and kill you before you can camp me outside my range.

But we will meet again you know how it is!

Edit: here's some footage of my IC's in 3.6:

Desyncing is life lol

http://youtu.be/9rSbu6ksKao

 

[Boiko]

However you can CC squall and most of my arieals, di out the down throw dair, and you can live long (though i messed up with the fsmashes great DI on your end.) The problem im having and the same with Bubba is that I cant get close to you, and when I do, I cant apply much damage. I dont wanna switch
off because I do remember winning before in 3.5 lmfao, but I need to find a way to get in and kill you before you can camp me outside my range.

But we will meet again you know how it is!

Yeah, if your biggest problem was getting in, you could have tried CPing to a smaller stage. We played almost every game on PS2 which I was totally okay with. Samus:ICs is a notoriously hard MU for a lot of reasons. Nana is dumb and gets hit by missiles a lot. Down smash and upb are amazing for separating them. Even Samus' bombs are good in the MU, because the climbers have to respect them on the ground, and they don't want to go into the air where Samus can fair/uair/nair/upb and separate them.

And yeah, we'll meet again for sure!

 

[bubbaking]

However you can CC squall and most of my arieals, di out the down throw dair, and you can live long (though i messed up with the fsmashes great DI on your end.) The problem im having and the same with Bubba is that I cant get close to you, and when I do, I cant apply much damage. I dont wanna switch
off because I do remember winning before in 3.5 lmfao, but I need to find a way to get in and kill you before you can camp me outside my range.

But we will meet again you know how it is!

Hi there!

Samus' grab is actually great in this MU, too.

 

[941]

I would argue that Samus' grab is more "high-risk, high-reward" in this MU than most. It does have the advantage of having enough range that Samus doesn't get punished for landing a grab, but a missed grab can lead to some big punishes from ICs.