I would prepare yourself for the worst, especially with Chrom...

[RonNewcomb]

Why should I heed and trust the warning of a person who claims Echoes are less than clones when that's factually wrong?

Uh, just popping in to note that he's correct there. Mario and Dr Mario aren't echoes, but they are clones. An echo is a very clone-y clone. Ryu and Ken in SF2:WW are echoes.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Ugh, I just wish Sakurai hadn't made the Echo Fighter label and just numbered the clones normally! Chrom just made the whole Echo thing even more confusing when he was an Echo of Roy, who was a Marth echo in Melee but was Luigified in Smash 4 and Chrom has Ike's Aether attack and a new Final Smash while Roy still has a modified version of Marth's Final Smash.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

Ugh, I just wish Sakurai hadn't made the Echo Fighter label and just numbered the clones normally! Chrom just made the whole Echo thing even more confusing when he was an Echo of Roy, who was a Marth echo in Melee but was Luigified in Smash 4 and Chrom has Ike's Aether attack and a new Final Smash while Roy still has a modified version of Marth's Final Smash.

It's certainly confusing (especially when comparing Chrom to Dr. Mario), but labelling them has helped massively shift public perspective of clones. I've always been a big fan of them, being easy ways to give more characters a space, but they certainly weren't popular before.

If it helps, Sakurai's perspective on Echoes essentially is a tweaked version of another moveset that can be balanced against the original character. Balancing is arguably the most difficult and time consuming part of the game, and it multiplies in work with each addition. Echoes are meant to be a bypass to this. You can see that in Smash 4's patches, where Lucina always received the same buffs that Marth did.

 

[Izanagi97]

It's certainly confusing (especially when comparing Chrom to Dr. Mario), but labelling them has helped massively shift public perspective of clones. I've always been a big fan of them, being easy ways to give more characters a space, but they certainly weren't popular before.

If it helps, Sakurai's perspective on Echoes essentially is a tweaked version of another moveset that can be balanced against the original character. Balancing is arguably the most difficult and time consuming part of the game, and it multiplies in work with each addition. Echoes are meant to be a bypass to this. You can see that in Smash 4's patches, where Lucina always received the same buffs that Marth did.

Also means making it easier to add a lot more characters because while echoes do take time, it's not as much as non echoes

 

[Fastblade5035]

Ugh, I just wish Sakurai hadn't made the Echo Fighter label and just numbered the clones normally! Chrom just made the whole Echo thing even more confusing when he was an Echo of Roy, who was a Marth echo in Melee but was Luigified in Smash 4 and Chrom has Ike's Aether attack and a new Final Smash while Roy still has a modified version of Marth's Final Smash.

The only thing Roy shares with Marth as far as Final Smashes go is the health bar visuals. That's it.

 

[Izanagi97]

I can honestly see Chrom doing better than Roy if only because Chrom won't be held back by being unable to space (even if it means losing horizontal recovery). Time (and a couple iterations of the Ultimate tier list) will tell.

 

[hermes]

Guys its not rocket science ^^ apparently he is roy with all around sword, he doesnt use reverse grip and uses a slightly different aether.

Roys final smash is completely different. Different power, animation, hitbox and he doesnt dash at all. Hp bar is the only common nostalgia. Roy also doesnt use his critical hit animation unlike marth, that unique animation is when he strikes with sealed sword. Marth and roy felt very different in smash 4. So roy is chroms brother and marth is his far relative. No need to focus on marth.

My only complaint is that epic move apparently is given to chrom to compansate his safety compared to roy. Aether shouldnt be a hindrance. Its flashy manly and damn hot >__>

 

[Shaya]

Umm Lancer, you said on frame 10 it hits in front.
I said on frame 11 it's a frontal overhead, as in, it goes overhead towards the front, which is exactly what you're seeing in that visualization you provided.

I like Roy a fair bit, but I've been playing Marth for the life of three games, there's s a huge difference.
The quip wasn't meant to be overtly serious in the argument or subverting to you.

And I'm not making out Roy's fsmash something amazing???
But neither is Marth's; Lucina's is overtly potent - but I haven't really been comparing to Lucina anyway.
Both post-shield stun changes in s4, power shield punishes were kinda gutted. In terms of raw fsmashes, it's roughly equivalent in getting a tipper fsmash as it is a sweetspot roy fsmash in difficulty verses a competent opponent.

Frame data does matter, but you're comparing the fastest forward smash start up in the game (although effectively it isn't reaching far that fast) against STILL one of the fastest forward smashes in the game.
They're past the point where they can be used as punishes out of shield and neither have reliable combos into them - if Roy's was as fast, considering how much stronger the move is compared to even tipper fsmash it would be monstrous, but it's SLIGHTLY slower for that very reason (but it comes with faster mobility specs).
Put two and two together.

 

[GunBlaze]

Chrom just made the whole Echo thing even more confusing when he was an Echo of Roy, who was a Marth echo in Melee

He ws not an Echo. He was a clone. Big difference.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

He ws not an Echo. He was a clone. Big difference.

What's the difference? Just being branded as an Echo for Smash Ultimate? Fan consensus is that Echoes just have very minor differences compared to clones, but Roy is more similar to Marth than Chrom.

 

[GunBlaze]

What's the difference? Just being branded as an Echo for Smash Ultimate? Fan consensus is that Echoes just have very minor differences compared to clones, but Roy is more similar to Marth than Chrom.

Clones carry their own physics separate from the originals, in addition to having wildly different attributes and, by extension, playstyles.

Case in point, as a clone, Roy was slower than Marth, while also being lighter (NTSC only) and falling significantly faster. The fact that his sword was at its strongest in the inner parts, rather than the tip, in addition to all previous points, made you require to have a different approach in spite of sharing nearly every attack (Roy lacks Marth's second jab).

Now Lucina, on the other hand, is an Echo Fighter due to sharing all of her attacks with Marth, in addition to sharing all of his attributes and physics. At times, despite having a balanced blade (thus, not being as polarized as Marth), there are situations where she has to play exactly like Marth (as in spacing for the tip), but because of her balanced blade, she does not get the same reward as Marth does.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

The way Dark Samus constantly floats make it hard to believe she has the same physics as Samus. She's got to be lighter. And can you define what "attributes" are in Smash terminology? Because the tipper vs balanced blade seem like different attributes to me.

 

[meleebrawler]

The way Dark Samus constantly floats make it hard to believe she has the same physics as Samus. She's got to be lighter. And can you define what "attributes" are in Smash terminology? Because the tipper vs balanced blade seem like different attributes to me.

You mean how a special ops equipped human is heavier than one decked in heavy armour or a robot, or how a mouse is lighter than a literal balloon?

Attributes usually refer to non-attack properties of a fighter, mainly their movement specs and weight. Keeping these largely the same between echoes makes balancing easier. So far no significant differences in those regards have been observed in Dark Samus that normal Samus doesn't also have, except for maybe a slightly faster and shorter roll. There can only be very tiny differences in attributes like the ever-so-slight height difference between Marth & Lucina. If there is a weight difference between Samus & Dark Samus it'll be negligible at best.

 

[Fell God]

or how a mouse is lighter than a literal balloon?

B-but Pichu is lighter canonically...


I think the real question is how Jigglypuff weighs as much as it does... (12 lbs compared to Pichu's 4)

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, when the game releases, or as new information gets revealed, we shall see if there's going to be some disputes about what makes an Echo fighter. And by the way, a lot of Echo fighters on Smash Wiki has listed attribute changes in their "Differences from the Original" sections and one of Dark Samus's attribute changes was that she's "floatier." Whether that refers to lighter weight or just her hovering animations, I don't know. But if she is lighter than Samus and has a slower fall speed and higher jump and can be launched farther than Samus at the same damage percentage, then you can throw the physics rule out the window.

 

[Fell God]

Well, when the game releases, or as new information gets revealed, we shall see if there's going to be some disputes about what makes an Echo fighter. And by the way, a lot of Echo fighters on Smash Wiki has listed attribute changes in their "Differences from the Original" sections and one of Dark Samus's attribute changes was that she's "floatier." Whether that refers to lighter weight or just her hovering animations, I don't know. But if she is lighter than Samus and has a slower fall speed and higher jump and can be launched farther than Samus at the same damage percentage, then you can throw the physics rule out the window.

Pretty sure floaty solely refers to falling speed (and I guess gravity) in Smash, would be weird if Dark Samus were lighter. Can't speak for her jump height though, hard to tell in that gameplay trailer.

 

[GunBlaze]

Whether that refers to lighter weight or just her hovering animations, I don't know.

If you see such thing in SmashWiki, it's always about the attributes rather than the aesthetics, which have their own section there anyway.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, if Dark Samus has a different falling speed, then Echoes are the same as clones and there's no excuse for Pichu to not be an Echo.

 

[Izanagi97]

Well, if Dark Samus has a different falling speed, then Echoes are the same as clones and there's no excuse for Pichu to not be an Echo.

We don't know how much Pichu has been changed to be decloned from Pikachu since there isn't a lot of footage of it

 

[Fell God]

Well, if Dark Samus has a different falling speed, then Echoes are the same as clones and there's no excuse for Pichu to not be an Echo.

Pichu is a close semi-clone at this point, like Dr. Mario, with Falco and Ganondorf being distant semi-clones of their respective base characters. Based on what little we know, he has a smaller hitbox and drastically lower weight, has a different up smash, and his side Smash has multiple hits, plus it's likely that his currently unknown moves (i.e. most of them) will be different from Pikachu's as well. Sadly, they didn't really tell us anything in the first direct, so we're probably not learning anything until after launch.

 

[hermes]

I find this clone echo fighter discussion quite redundant. They introduced echo fighters who are based on other fighters, like most of the animations and sound effects. Thats it, its pointless to bring the word "clone semi clone". Pichu is small and apparenyly they put much more effort into pichu than dark samus. Most semi clones are distant, its not worth bothering. Even if some are closer, its not important if we call them semi clone or not.

And sean, its pointless to bring marth here. All we need to know is that chrom is based on roy(every move but one). You surely can compare his tools with marths but dont bring marth to get into this clone discussion. Roys final smash also has nothing to do with marths. Nothing marth here actually.

 

[Korrin]

Does Chrom have anything that was originally Roy's? Roy was a clone of Marth in Melee so he has a lot of Marth's moves. Chrom has Ike's Aether and Lucina's sword. Chrom doesn't have any fire moves and his sword is balanced like Lucina. He has a new Final Smash while Roy has Marth's Final Smash. What makes Chrom an Echo of Roy? He seems more like a hybrid of the whole Fire Emblem cast.

Roy has never had marths final smash what are you talking about

 

[Diddy Kong]

I am actually betting Chrom will be better than at least Roy and Lucina. Marth is looking rock solid so that's a definiate no here. Ike is iffy, it's Aether hit or miss.

 

[Izanagi97]

I am actually betting Chrom will be better than at least Roy and Lucina. Marth is looking rock solid so that's a definiate no here. Ike is iffy, it's Aether hit or miss.

Hell, Esam made a video on it

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Roy has never had marths final smash what are you talking about

Roy has Critical Hit with a health bar.

Okay, I went to Training Mode to compare their Final Smashes. Well, Roy doesn't charge at the opponent like Marth and Lucina do, he just winds up and slams his sword like his neutral B. At least missing in the air wouldn't cause him to run off the stage. But his Final Smash is still called Critical Hit and the health bar graphic still pops up for each opponent he hits. Chrom's Final Smash is Awakening Aether and he runs at the opponent, jumps back and slashes them again. And there's no sign of a health bar in that move. The difference between Marth and Roy's Final Smash is like comparing Fox and Falco's Down Special. They are both called "Reflector" and uses a hexagonal shield, but Falco kicks his Reflector at the opponent while Fox just uses it to guard. But comparing Roy and Chrom's Final Smashes would be like trying to compare Marth and Ike's Final Smashes, too different to compare.

 

[Izanagi97]

Roy has Critical Hit with a health bar.

Okay, I went to Training Mode to compare their Final Smashes. Well, Roy doesn't charge at the opponent like Marth and Lucina do, he just winds up and slams his sword like his neutral B. At least missing in the air wouldn't cause him to run off the stage. But his Final Smash is still called Critical Hit and the health bar graphic still pops up for each opponent he hits. Chrom's Final Smash is Awakening Aether and he runs at the opponent, jumps back and slashes them again. And there's no sign of a health bar in that move. The difference between Marth and Roy's Final Smash is like comparing Fox and Falco's Down Special. They are both called "Reflector" and uses a hexagonal shield, but Falco kicks his Reflector at the opponent while Fox just uses it to guard. But comparing Roy and Chrom's Final Smashes would be like trying to compare Marth and Ike's Final Smashes, too different to compare.

Pretty much

 

[hermes]

Roy has Critical Hit with a health bar.

Okay, I went to Training Mode to compare their Final Smashes. Well, Roy doesn't charge at the opponent like Marth and Lucina do, he just winds up and slams his sword like his neutral B. At least missing in the air wouldn't cause him to run off the stage. But his Final Smash is still called Critical Hit and the health bar graphic still pops up for each opponent he hits. Chrom's Final Smash is Awakening Aether and he runs at the opponent, jumps back and slashes them again. And there's no sign of a health bar in that move. The difference between Marth and Roy's Final Smash is like comparing Fox and Falco's Down Special. They are both called "Reflector" and uses a hexagonal shield, but Falco kicks his Reflector at the opponent while Fox just uses it to guard. But comparing Roy and Chrom's Final Smashes would be like trying to compare Marth and Ike's Final Smashes, too different to compare.

The problem is.. those two moves have nothing in common other than the name and health bar. Every single property is different. Its not only the dashing, its also the frames hitbox animation and power. Its not like compating fox and falco reflector, they have an important common property. Yeah most final smashes kill, but roy and marth have very different final smashes. Its not correct to bring marth with this "similarity". Evrn ikes final smash are not far in proximity when compared to marths. Vertical killing is the thing yet they can be even more similar. As for chrom, I dont kno how it hits, we dont know, so its early to say a statement like that. It can come out the same as roys final smashes properties with different animations. We dont know actually.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Why are people assuming that Chrom having consistent damage throughout already makes him better than Roy when his core issues are: bad to ok frame data for a character that tries to play like a boxer, bad recovery(Chrom's gonna be hot garbage) and combo food with no reliable escape options and no approach options outside of SH nair or spaced fair.

Only advantage I see is more consistent spacing, which also means losing certain combo strings, kill set ups(Chrom by default doesn't have jab>Blazer because of Aether), and although the 1v1 damage will make his damage even better, the same will go to Roy's sweetspot moves.

I personally believe that it's best to wait until the game comes out before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Korrin]

Roy has Critical Hit with a health bar.

Okay, I went to Training Mode to compare their Final Smashes. Well, Roy doesn't charge at the opponent like Marth and Lucina do, he just winds up and slams his sword like his neutral B. At least missing in the air wouldn't cause him to run off the stage. But his Final Smash is still called Critical Hit and the health bar graphic still pops up for each opponent he hits. Chrom's Final Smash is Awakening Aether and he runs at the opponent, jumps back and slashes them again. And there's no sign of a health bar in that move. The difference between Marth and Roy's Final Smash is like comparing Fox and Falco's Down Special. They are both called "Reflector" and uses a hexagonal shield, but Falco kicks his Reflector at the opponent while Fox just uses it to guard. But comparing Roy and Chrom's Final Smashes would be like trying to compare Marth and Ike's Final Smashes, too different to compare.

Fox and falco both use their reflector for their down B but those moves are completely different. Marth and roy both use their critical hit as their final smash but those moves are completely different.
Also I never said that roy and chroms final smash were identical. I just said that marth and roy dont have the same final smash.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Of course no one ever said Chrom's Final Smash was identical. Marth and Roy both having a "Critical Hit" as their Final Smash while Chrom having a new Final Smash is just my complaint about Chrom being labeled an Echo Fighter. Sure, I'm now learning the differences between Marth and Roy, but it still doesn't feel right to consider Chrom a Roy Echo. Didn't Viridi say he'd be more like Ike? When the game comes out, I want someone to compare the differences between the Echoes and the original characters and then make comparisons for former clones like Dr. Mario and Pichu. I want to see how valid this "Echo" thing is. If a non-Echo got a higher percentage than an official Echo, then I won't believe in Echoes.

 

[Fell God]

Why are people assuming that Chrom having consistent damage throughout already makes him better than Roy when his core issues are: bad to ok frame data for a character that tries to play like a boxer, bad recovery(Chrom's gonna be hot garbage) and combo food with no reliable escape options and no approach options outside of SH nair or spaced fair.

Only advantage I see is more consistent spacing, which also means losing certain combo strings, kill set ups(Chrom by default doesn't have jab>Blazer because of Aether), and although the 1v1 damage will make his damage even better, the same will go to Roy's sweetspot moves.

I personally believe that it's best to wait until the game comes out before jumping to conclusions.

But Chrom doesn't play like a boxer because he doesn't have an inverse tipper. Aside from that, all of Chrom's major weaknesses are the same as Roy's.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

And Chrom doesn't have any fire attacks.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

But Chrom doesn't play like a boxer because he doesn't have an inverse tipper. Aside from that, all of Chrom's major weaknesses are the same as Roy's.

I know, that's just a playstyle that doesn't suit Roy because he lacks the frame data to do so. And while its true that both will have the same weaknesses, Chrom's is going to have a more notable one because of that recovery, while it is true that there are good characters with bad recovery, none of them have one as exploitable as Aether, except maybe Falcon Dive.

 

[Fell God]

I know, that's just a playstyle that doesn't suit Roy because he lacks the frame data to do so. And while its true that both will have the same weaknesses, Chrom's is going to have a more notable one because of that recovery, while it is true that there are good characters with bad recovery, none of them have one as exploitable as Aether, except maybe Falcon Dive.

Oh yeah, no denying it, Chrom's recovery is actual garbage, but in my subjective experience, when I play as Roy, I often find myself dying due to a lack of vertical distance rather than horizontal (Roy's air speed is quite good, even if it is hampered by his awful air acceleration) but one major advantage Roy has over Chrom in terms of recovery is that Blazer is way faster than Chrom's recovery, and I don't think it has the super armor that Ike's version has.

 

[hermes]

Directional air dodge favors vertical recoveries though. Its bad but probably not as bad as we imagine. He can dash to the ledge or evade an attack then do a vertical leap after the lag.

And final smashes are mostly aethetics. Its not worth arguing I guess. Recovery is a great distinction but why bother arguing final smash. Different final smash is some great new colour. I also find this "to be echo or not to be echo" discussion super redundant. We have a fighter with some tools, I donr think this classification is important to know at all. All it says its heavily based on roy to give an idea before release, and pointless when we play the game.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Oh yeah, no denying it, Chrom's recovery is actual garbage, but in my subjective experience, when I play as Roy, I often find myself dying due to a lack of vertical distance rather than horizontal (Roy's air speed is quite good, even if it is hampered by his awful air acceleration) but one major advantage Roy has over Chrom in terms of recovery is that Blazer is way faster than Chrom's recovery, and I don't think it has the super armor that Ike's version has.

The direction Ultimate is going is already a nice buff(dash cancel dtilt, jab are welcomed approach options). Time will tell how good both will end up.

 

[Fell God]

The direction Ultimate is going is already a nice buff(dash cancel dtilt, jab are welcomed approach options). Time will tell how good both will end up.

I'm looking forward to the ability to being able to do dash cancel mixups, especially since Roy's and Chrom's grounded normals are all very good moves.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I'm looking forward to the ability to being able to do dash cancel mixups, especially since Roy's and Chrom's grounded normals are all very good moves.

I'll think about occasionally using Chrom because Roy's playstyle has been engraved in me so much that I do not know if I'll be able to adapt to the fact I now have more spacing at the cost of kill power and recovery.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

So i am maining chrom and roy (long time roy main), with a pocket mario and marth. I suck at analyzing gameplay for now but i think using roy from.previous titles as bad character design to curve optimism about chrom is ridiculous imo. Being a echo fighter or clone of roy doesnt mean its a bad sign. More so, whats the word on bis recovery? I have seen it a few times but didnt see if they tried to angle it (if possible). How "bad" is his recovery?

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So i am maining chrom and roy (long time roy main), with a pocket mario and marth. I suck at analyzing gameplay for now but i think using roy from.previous titles as bad character design to curve optimism about chrom is ridiculous imo. Being a echo fighter or clone of roy doesnt mean its a bad sign. More so, whats the word on bis recovery? I have seen it a few times but didnt see if they tried to angle it (if possible). How "bad" is his recovery?

We don't know how much Chrom's version of Aether can be angled but so far his recovery is just awful.