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I would prepare yourself for the worst, especially with Chrom...

Arrei

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As one who's been routinely displeased with how easy it can be to mess with Ike's Aether with everything from counters to windboxes to lingering hitboxes, I must admit my first impressions of Chrom's recovery are pretty pessimistic too. I'm gonna steer clear about all the discussion about his merit as a fighter, but the only ways to salvage having Aether as Chrom's sole recovery move would be to give it properties like sweet-spotting the ledge at the apex instead of spinning in place, or giving it the ability to grab the ledge backwards like it could in Brawl... and if he got such properties and Ike doesn't, I'm going to be a rather salty sardine.
 

Amberloo

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Mario was a pretty unsuccessful character in Brawl. That means he didn't end up being good in 4.

I... really don't understand the point of trying to analyze how well a character will do based on some 30 second trailers for a game that still has a few months til release and also will likely get patch updates. But okay.

(Also psssst tiers only really matter in high level play, most people are probably going to be just fine with playing as their favorite character)
 

LancerStaff

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You think as a result of that Sakurai or Nintendo is looking into every thread that takes place on this board? I envy your optimism about Smashboard influnce. In my experience with deal with large companies and their various social media handlings that generally does not happen. They may at best investigate keywords and reflect on data after major events and things of that nature but I can tell you a thread like this would likely be overlooked in such a scenario as it is at best speculation based on video footage of potentially incomplete and unreleased content.
It’s like trickle down theory, except it actually works.

People tend to not argue with what’s on Smashboards, regardless if it’s true or not. It’s hardly a bad starting point.

I love how you keep implying that there is a huge sect of people rioting out the "flaws of the game", meanwhile I've seen nothing but genuine excitement and praise for how much better this game looks competitively. But hey, if creating an imaginary group of people that agree with you makes you feel less pathetic, go ahead, but stop shoving this garbage down our throats like its fact.
It’s people like you that are pushing garbage down people’s throats... No, we don’t have to blindly praise the game and hope that Chrom won’t just literally die to rando Bthrows. People like Zapp (the person detailing and compiling frame data for Ultimate) and Kuroganehammer (yaknow, literally the owner and creator of the Smash 4 frame data site) have expressed many negative opinions about the upcoming game.

100% agree. OP ruined his excitement for the game by being a complete pessimist and assuming the worst despite a lack of data or evidence to back up said pessimism.

His chronic pessimism even lead him to come to a variety of backwards conclusions, as can be seen by comments such as “jumpsquat changes means that everything can be punished on shield” and “the game might actually be slower”.

His goal is to kill our excitement by imposing this backwards mentality on us, but I, and I hope many others see through his bs and stay rational and excited for the game’s future.
A character’s history has more to do with current viability than anything else. Echos have virtually no thought behind them and are largely inferior versions of the originals. Put it together and you get Chrom.

The jumpsquat changes and 1 frame of shieldstun max would indeed slow the game down considerably by making many more things punishable on shield. Why are we pretending otherwise? Why are we pretending this isn’t a legitimate concern amongst our best and brightest? You don’t make good games in hopes and dreams, you make good games on hard criticism and a ton of effort.

With how... Toxic the Smash fanbase can be towards having their dreams smashed, a little pessimism goes a long way.

According to him Ridley is lighter than Mario as well, so I guess everyone who said he was "heavy but not as much as other superheavies" are liars too.
This information is coming from the same group that thought ridiculous things like Roy being the undisputed best swordsman in the game (when MK’s ladder existed even) and complained about Pit’s arrows and Zelda’s Din’s Fire being “impossible to dodge” when Brawl released. When given little time to look at things objectively claims will be emotional and wild.

I asked you for an example of Ridley looking remotely heavy and you instead turned and fled. So long as Ridley gets destroyed by stray Samus Bairs of all things I refuse to call him heavy, regardless of your personal expectations and opinions. A very poor choice to try and start **** smearing with, I must say.

New game, new rules, and most importantly, a new goal: esports.

This roster is insanely ambitious, it's true, but Nintendo has more of a reason to make it as balanced as possible than they literally ever have.

Yeah, SSB4 balance fell short in many places, but this is the first time Nintendo is actually planning to make MONEY from the roster being as balanced as possible, and Nintendo's love for money has some crazy stories behind it (like literally hunting down software pirates in other countries...).
Hoooold your horses there pard. ESports? What makes you think that? Nintendo has reassured us many times that they’re not chasing the eSports dream, and eSports is far from profitable. To the point where established franchises such as Soul Caliber are not being made with eSports in mind. Sakurai is about as anti-eSports as you could get. Nintendo’s had some kind gestures but as far as actually changing games to support such a thing, well, I don’t see it happening. Certainly not with Smash first.

I'm pretty excited for Roy in this game, and a persistent blade Roy aka Chrom could be kinda interesting, but it'll be difficult to balance them similarly - if Roy only had sweetspots in S4 with slightly less KO power he would be a better character (imo) as the only good tipper he has is back air (and maybe dtilt or nair). So Roy's gonna need love.

Having aether is a shame for his chances overall but I'm going to say its a wait and see.

Roy's amazing in Smash4 though, just not enough time left in the game / a high enough level player for him to be seen at his best.

I think most of the FE cast is going to be potent this time around, dash to any attacking option enhances their capabilities a lot.
Also while Lucina/Marth's fsmash are faster start up technically, it's from behind their heads and the frame at which they reach horizontally in front of them is the same (or 1 frame slower for Roy) IIRC.
So if for whatever reason Chrom has stronger than Lucina fsmsash, or heck, even the same, persistence is gonna be a strong tool to have.
I'm not sure if Chrom's getting the same mobility specs as Roy would; but assuming he does then he's also able to dash faster than Lucina/etc into something that you'll generally be spacing horizontally for it to be a negligible nitpick.

Thinking about all this, I could very well see Chrom being a stronger character at first and then maybe we'll get to see the balance team actually putting some PATCH oomph into the 'original' rather than the other way around for Marth/Lucina in s4. And thus, top tier Roy in July 2019!!!
LETS GO.
I’m fairly confident Marth’s Fsmash is f10 above them and somewhat in front, then f11 is fully extended. Roy’s Fsmash also takes time to extend, kinda rendering this whole thing moot...

I’m not surprised you’re fairly optimistic, but I think we both know that one of a character’s biggest obstacles in being used is perception. Even if Roy has potential in 4, are people going to bother when characters that are similar and very obviously stronger exist? Similarly, if characters like Marth (perceived to be very strong in general) or Pit (perceived potential due to a very large amount of buffs) exist in Ultimate, then why would they use Roy? No amount of clickbait from ZeRo or labbing out kooky combos is going to bring interest to him when you could play like five other similar characters and immediately get more out. I can sympathize, but I can’t help but agree with this mindset too. Roy’s going to need a lot, both in game and out, to gain any traction.
 

MarioMeteor

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I think everyone's downplaying Chrom's up special, sort of. It's not like Blazer is a good move by any stretch of the imagination.
Now you're downplaying Blazer. Sure, it’s suckass at actually recovering, but offensively the move is pretty decent with its frame 7 startup, strong knockback and super armor.
 

FE_SLaDe

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Now you're downplaying Blazer. Sure, it’s suckass at actually recovering, but offensively the move is pretty decent with its frame 7 startup, strong knockback and super armor.
Agreed that grounded Blazer is good, one of Roy's go to kill options after Jab + it's decent OOS, but let's be honest, aerial Blazer was not all that great. I hope they at least put armor on it when Roy is aerial, it would help so much.
 

Fell God

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Now you're downplaying Blazer. Sure, it’s suckass at actually recovering, but offensively the move is pretty decent with its frame 7 startup, strong knockback and super armor.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Blazer is decent offensively, just somehow always manages to miss the ledge when recovering vertically. If Chrom does indeed have Roy's air stats, his recovery will still be better since Roy doesn't really have as many issues recovering horizontally compared to vertically.
 

S_B

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Hoooold your horses there pard. ESports? What makes you think that? Nintendo has reassured us many times that they’re not chasing the eSports dream, and eSports is far from profitable. To the point where established franchises such as Soul Caliber are not being made with eSports in mind. Sakurai is about as anti-eSports as you could get. Nintendo’s had some kind gestures but as far as actually changing games to support such a thing, well, I don’t see it happening. Certainly not with Smash first.
-Nintendo never used to sponsor SSB tournaments but began doing so in the past few years.

-They're clearly gearing this game to be as competitive as possible, even going so far as to talk about advanced techs in official trailers.

-They're giving us a training room that's entirely focused on knowing details about moves that only competitive players will be interested in.

And last but not least...

-Nintendo is already running a Splatoon 2 league as an esport, FFS.

As for there being "no money in esports". League of Legends, DotA, Overwatch, and Splatoon 2 all beg to differ.

And do you really think they're not going to test Chrom or something? Like they're going to push him out the door with garbage recovery and say, "Eh, that's good enough." when they didn't even do something like that to a character in Brawl...?
 
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Schnee117

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PSA: Just put Lancer on ignore. They're arguing in bad faith as usual.

We should probably wait until the character is actually playable before we start jumping to conclusions.
Whoa now, that's too logical and sensible.

 

DraginHikari

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It’s like trickle down theory, except it actually works.

People tend to not argue with what’s on Smashboards, regardless if it’s true or not. It’s hardly a bad starting point.
I would probably argue that's a bad thing. Any fan related source that designated as some kind of unquestionable thing is usually not a good thing in my experience.

I’m not surprised you’re fairly optimistic, but I think we both know that one of a character’s biggest obstacles in being used is perception. Even if Roy has potential in 4, are people going to bother when characters that are similar and very obviously stronger exist? Similarly, if characters like Marth (perceived to be very strong in general) or Pit (perceived potential due to a very large amount of buffs) exist in Ultimate, then why would they use Roy? No amount of clickbait from ZeRo or labbing out kooky combos is going to bring interest to him when you could play like five other similar characters and immediately get more out. I can sympathize, but I can’t help but agree with this mindset too. Roy’s going to need a lot, both in game and out, to gain any traction.
Frankly this is inevitable with a Roster of this size. Whether it Roy/Chrom or another set of characters.
 

MarioMeteor

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Agreed that grounded Blazer is good, one of Roy's go to kill options after Jab + it's decent OOS, but let's be honest, aerial Blazer was not all that great. I hope they at least put armor on it when Roy is aerial, it would help so much.
Yeah, aerial Blazer is pretty disappointing. If it had the properties of grounded Blazer it would definitely benefit Roy a lot.
Whoa now, that's too logical and sensible.

You’re right, whatever was I thinking?
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
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Yeah, Roy still has Marth's Critical Hit Final Smash while Chrom has a brand new Final Smash. That makes the whole Echo vs Semi-Clone thing really confusing.
Roy's is pretty much a different move from Marth and Lucina's.
 
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Sean Wheeler

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Roy's is pretty much a different move from Marth and Lucina's.
But Roy still has Critical Hit as his Final Smash. Those HP meters are still shown on the opponents he hits. He just has a longer windup and flames to differentiate from Marth and Lucina.
 

MarioMeteor

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But Roy still has Critical Hit as his Final Smash. Those HP meters are still shown on the opponents he hits. He just has a longer windup and flames to differentiate from Marth and Lucina.
The animation is completely different from the Hero-Kings’. They share the same name, but that’s it.
 

Arthur97

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Is this thread not showing up properly for anyone else? I can see it on the Character discussion page, but not under the Chrom/Roy section.
 

KingPinGamez

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Googling basically anything involving data (tiers, techniques) either takes you directly to Smashboards or takes you to places like the wiki or another forum like GFAQs which in turn link/mention Smashboards.



Having one frame of shieldstun max and reducing jumpsquats to three frames means that basically everything is going to be punishable on shield. Nobody playing the game has played it trying to abuse this. The potential for literally all the gameplay we’ve had to be completely irrelevant and crumble to dust is very high. Dodges are also generally much stronger overall before staling, back rolls aside.

I’m sorry for just being realistic... People are going to be incredibly pessimistic on release, like literally every Smash game. The cracks are already showing.



Definitely not. Not even an hour after the reveal I saw people complaining about how awful he sounds on paper. It didn’t occur to me either until I saw the post... By now I’m sure there’s a petition to remove Chrom’s Aether.



He’s whiffed it more than he’s hit with it... We’ve also seen literally every other move he has.
Chrom has not whiffed an up.B once. If he has, please show proof. There is none from the direct nor from his character video on the smash website.

It means that his up.B might work exactly like Blazer on whiff or possible work exactly like blazer in the air. Possibly on hit it may changed into aether, which means he's more of an echo than he may seem at first glance, from what we have been shown.
 
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T-Donor66

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It’s like trickle down theory, except it actually works.

People tend to not argue with what’s on Smashboards, regardless if it’s true or not. It’s hardly a bad starting point.



It’s people like you that are pushing garbage down people’s throats... No, we don’t have to blindly praise the game and hope that Chrom won’t just literally die to rando Bthrows. People like Zapp (the person detailing and compiling frame data for Ultimate) and Kuroganehammer (yaknow, literally the owner and creator of the Smash 4 frame data site) have expressed many negative opinions about the upcoming game.



A character’s history has more to do with current viability than anything else. Echos have virtually no thought behind them and are largely inferior versions of the originals. Put it together and you get Chrom.

The jumpsquat changes and 1 frame of shieldstun max would indeed slow the game down considerably by making many more things punishable on shield. Why are we pretending otherwise? Why are we pretending this isn’t a legitimate concern amongst our best and brightest? You don’t make good games in hopes and dreams, you make good games on hard criticism and a ton of effort.

With how... Toxic the Smash fanbase can be towards having their dreams smashed, a little pessimism goes a long way.



This information is coming from the same group that thought ridiculous things like Roy being the undisputed best swordsman in the game (when MK’s ladder existed even) and complained about Pit’s arrows and Zelda’s Din’s Fire being “impossible to dodge” when Brawl released. When given little time to look at things objectively claims will be emotional and wild.

I asked you for an example of Ridley looking remotely heavy and you instead turned and fled. So long as Ridley gets destroyed by stray Samus Bairs of all things I refuse to call him heavy, regardless of your personal expectations and opinions. A very poor choice to try and start **** smearing with, I must say.



Hoooold your horses there pard. ESports? What makes you think that? Nintendo has reassured us many times that they’re not chasing the eSports dream, and eSports is far from profitable. To the point where established franchises such as Soul Caliber are not being made with eSports in mind. Sakurai is about as anti-eSports as you could get. Nintendo’s had some kind gestures but as far as actually changing games to support such a thing, well, I don’t see it happening. Certainly not with Smash first.



I’m fairly confident Marth’s Fsmash is f10 above them and somewhat in front, then f11 is fully extended. Roy’s Fsmash also takes time to extend, kinda rendering this whole thing moot...

I’m not surprised you’re fairly optimistic, but I think we both know that one of a character’s biggest obstacles in being used is perception. Even if Roy has potential in 4, are people going to bother when characters that are similar and very obviously stronger exist? Similarly, if characters like Marth (perceived to be very strong in general) or Pit (perceived potential due to a very large amount of buffs) exist in Ultimate, then why would they use Roy? No amount of clickbait from ZeRo or labbing out kooky combos is going to bring interest to him when you could play like five other similar characters and immediately get more out. I can sympathize, but I can’t help but agree with this mindset too. Roy’s going to need a lot, both in game and out, to gain any traction.
Congrats on being the first person to have a spot on my ignore list! Enjoy your time there!
 

Izanagi97

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I feel like there are still a lot of unknown variables regarding Chrom's Up B since in all the clips it was used, it had two things in common: It was grounded and it did not whiff. We have yet to see how it behaves if it whiffs, if it's done in the air, or if it can be angled.
 

Fell God

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I feel like there are still a lot of unknown variables regarding Chrom's Up B since in all the clips it was used, it had two things in common: It was grounded and it did not whiff. We have yet to see how it behaves if it whiffs, if it's done in the air, or if it can be angled.
Quite odd they showed it like 4 or 5 times and it was always doing the same thing, I have to say...
 

KingPinGamez

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I feel like there are still a lot of unknown variables regarding Chrom's Up B since in all the clips it was used, it had two things in common: It was grounded and it did not whiff. We have yet to see how it behaves if it whiffs, if it's done in the air, or if it can be angled.
Quite odd they showed it like 4 or 5 times and it was always doing the same thing, I have to say...

Yeah. This is the point I am making. The upward strike seems like it could easily turn into a blazer (without fire, harhar irony) instead of ending with the aether.
 

Shaya

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I’m fairly confident Marth’s Fsmash is f10 above them and somewhat in front, then f11 is fully extended. Roy’s Fsmash also takes time to extend, kinda rendering this whole thing moot...
Frame 10 is behind their head, 11 is the frontal overhead, 12-13 is the blade hitting the ground.
Roy's fsmash is 14-15 and has a body hitbox which covers the entire animation swing for it's duration (i.e. constant body hitboxes vses sword-attached hitboxes).
Frame 14 of Roy's fsmash is roughly equivalent to what marth reaches between frames 11 and 12 of his fsmash and on frame 15 it has reached the ground.
In other words, it doesn't take time to extend, it takes time to retract.

So 2-3 frames slower, depending on how you see it.
(I thought roy's fsmash was 13f in my original post)

But why would you question my knowledge of Marth frame data/anything, ever.
God.
 

Kirbunny431

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1. Maybe play the game and draw a conclusion then.

2. OP, you really need to lay off the ellipses. They make your posts even more unpleasant to read.
 

Flowen231

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I mean, roy was never all that in any old games, so I don't really have reason to believe that will change, but chrom having a balanced sword already negates one of roy's biggest weaknesses; Spacing with strong moves, and in smash U's case chrom's up b goes higher than roy's so his edgeguarding may be viable thanks to the ability to go deeper (albeit worse while in disadvantage).

We'll have to wait and see though. Not alot of info to go off of when it comes to these two.
 

LancerStaff

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-Nintendo never used to sponsor SSB tournaments but began doing so in the past few years.

-They're clearly gearing this game to be as competitive as possible, even going so far as to talk about advanced techs in official trailers.

-They're giving us a training room that's entirely focused on knowing details about moves that only competitive players will be interested in.

And last but not least...

-Nintendo is already running a Splatoon 2 league as an esport, FFS.

As for there being "no money in esports". League of Legends, DotA, Overwatch, and Splatoon 2 all beg to differ.

And do you really think they're not going to test Chrom or something? Like they're going to push him out the door with garbage recovery and say, "Eh, that's good enough." when they didn't even do something like that to a character in Brawl...?
You realize it’s mostly NoA’s doing, right?

That’s Sakurai being Sakurai.

The training room is unimpressive. It gives you a visualization for knockback at three separate damages and that’s it. There’s no frame data, it doesn’t show off any unique properties or hitboxes, you can’t program an AI... The combo counter is probably still busted too.

Isn’t that just the under 13 turf war only thing?

Blizzard is the only company making games with real money behind them in both tournaments and sales. Splatoon 2 has no real money in tournaments.

Uh... Puff? Zelda? Dorf? Ringin’ any bells?

Never mind the braindead easy chain grabs and stuff found prior to release, namely DDD’s and Falco’s.

PSA: Just put Lancer on ignore. They're arguing in bad faith as usual.



Whoa now, that's too logical and sensible.

There’s no bad faith at all.

Oh, and we have gameplay now... And it seems that much of what I’ve predicted has come true.

I would probably argue that's a bad thing. Any fan related source that designated as some kind of unquestionable thing is usually not a good thing in my experience.



Frankly this is inevitable with a Roster of this size. Whether it Roy/Chrom or another set of characters.
I never said it was good or bad, just that it can be used.

This is why I’m for this “reboot” Sakurai was talking about. Especially when they never consider why any given character is good or bad and instead copy/paste and do small tweaks from there. Only the most blatantly degenerate things get removed.

Chrom has not whiffed an up.B once. If he has, please show proof. There is none from the direct nor from his character video on the smash website.

It means that his up.B might work exactly like Blazer on whiff or possible work exactly like blazer in the air. Possibly on hit it may changed into aether, which means he's more of an echo than he may seem at first glance, from what we have been shown.
I believe when he and Roy face each other and use some specials we see a whiffed Aether.

You have to admit that’s a stretch for an echo regardless.

Congrats on being the first person to have a spot on my ignore list! Enjoy your time there!
People who announce adding people to ignore lists are pathetic, and rarely follow through with such claims.

Frame 10 is behind their head, 11 is the frontal overhead, 12-13 is the blade hitting the ground.
Roy's fsmash is 14-15 and has a body hitbox which covers the entire animation swing for it's duration (i.e. constant body hitboxes vses sword-attached hitboxes).
Frame 14 of Roy's fsmash is roughly equivalent to what marth reaches between frames 11 and 12 of his fsmash and on frame 15 it has reached the ground.
In other words, it doesn't take time to extend, it takes time to retract.

So 2-3 frames slower, depending on how you see it.
(I thought roy's fsmash was 13f in my original post)

But why would you question my knowledge of Marth frame data/anything, ever.
God.
That doesn’t match any visualization I’ve ever seen, and it contradicts a conversation we had previously. Now, perhaps I am wrong, but to me the 11th frame I see looks like this:
10A688AC-A202-4C0A-A8D2-7F1DB25F1315.png
Which for all typical applications looks fully extended or close enough to it. Next frame is on the ground. From my obviously more limited experience this is the frame a person would usually land the move if the opponent isn’t actively moving into it.

Every frame matters with moves like this. You don’t see anybody (anybody knowledgeable anyway) boasting about Roy’s f14 one, even if it’s fully extended on that frame. This is more problematic if anything, because the hitboxes don’t cover the entire swing. Marth’s (or rather Lucina’s, which is more relevant for obvious reasons) seems to have effective body hitboxes on this frame as well. And Roy’s Fsmash only lasts two frames total for whatever reason, which is yet another reason why Marth’s is reliable and Roy’s a meme move for fanboys to bandwagon behind at best.

I think it’s time to cut the arrogance. If I’m right or wrong you’re fully capable of explaining yourself without this “why are you questioning me reeee” garbage. Especially after you just forgot what frame Roy’s Fsmash started on.

In other news, we have real footage of Chrom now.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1cmXGpii8

I’m not very impressed. Looking at a few moves the damage doesn’t seem to be horribly slanted towards Roy’s tippers, at least. Seems average, which is a bit of a problem... Not terribly sure about combo potential either. We do see what looks like a jab into a Fair, but I’m not entirely convinced it’s true. (I’m under the impression these are CPUs, though it’s naturally hard to judge.) His aerials seem to have high base and low growth for knockback overall, though Bair seems like a decent kill move. There are many times where combos seem just out of reach at lower percents Double Edge Dance also seems pretty average, doing about 13% at one point, though I don’t know what an optimal combo path would look like either. It probably wasn’t super staled... I will leave anything in-depth to the pros, but my immediate impressions are still negative.

At roughly two minutes in we see what is clearly Aether being used in the air and nothing being hit. (This is partly why I think these are CPUs, no human would of attempted Aether like that.) Ike’s Aether, correct me if I’m wrong, has no control once used. Chrom’s has no real angling or drift while being used, so my fears about his recovery seem on the mark. He used airdodges every other time he couldn’t just reach a ledge, and got hit for it every time. His double jump is still bad. His fall speed is still high. His air acceleration still looks bad. I don’t see how he wouldn’t just crumple under pressure.

This pathetic recovery for average damage and lackluster kill power doesn’t really seem fair or balance in any way.
 

hermes

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I also cant see the justification of aether -for now- and this video doesnt show a real compansation. Lancerstaff is doing a good job to encourage us to question chroms viability, how underwhelming roy was and if they can be any good with new mechanics. Sakurai is pretty keen on feedback especially just after release, I like more discussion being put and we have enough knowledge to guess at least. I also think that they will work hard to make this game more esports friendly.

Blazer shoulnt be underrated though, there is a huuuge gap between aether and blazer if thats the old aether we know.
 
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Izanagi97

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I also cant see the justification of aether -for now- and this video doesnt show a real compansation. Lancerstaff is doing a good job to encourage us to question chroms viability, how underwhelming roy was and if they can be any good with new mechanics. Sakurai is pretty keen on feedback especially just after release, I like more discussion being put and we have enough knowledge to guess at least. I also think that they will work hard to make this game more esports friendly.

Blazer shoulnt be underrated though, there is a huuuge gap between aether and blazer if thats the old aether we know.
That and I presume that Roy is likely getting buffed in Ultimate (those buffs will likely extend to Chrom). Chrom's horizontal recovery, though, is going to be a problem because unless one of the buffs Roy (and by extension, Chrom) is better air acceleration to take advantage of that high air speed, Chrom is gonna need to use Directional Air Dodges for horizontal recovery. Oh well, just need to wait for the game to come out to Lab him since the Gamescon demo is looking to use the same build as the E3 one (likely to avoid the system getting hacked and someone leaking everything in the menu, especially the hidden mode)
 

ArkhaosZero

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I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't see Chrom's recovery as a huge problem. It's a weakness, no doubt, but people are treating it like it's S4 Mac tier. Chrom (by extension of Roy) has fantastic aerial drift, meaning he shouldn't have a huge problem at least getting underneath the ledge to take advantage of Aether's decent height. Ike doesn't have the same degree of aerial mobility in his jumps. Characters like Falcon, non-Limit Cloud, Corrin, etc.. seem to have pretty comparable recoveries, if just a little better. Again, this isn't a strong point of Chrom, but it's not that out of the ordinary as far as "meh" recoveries go.

Meanwhile people are comparing his on-stage viability to S4 Roy, but are ignoring how much the dash changes favor characters with good ground speed and tilts. Not to mention that SH aerials have a damage multiplier. Chrom's damage output is equalized, but skewed a little towards Roy's S4 hilt damage. It's impossible to know for sure how much will transfer over, but S4 Roy's combo game had potential, it was just held back by poor approach options and inconsistencies thanks to the sour/sweetspots. Chrom's changes and Ultimate's mechanical changes go a long way to fix these two issues.
 

RonNewcomb

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Considering how wrong you were about Cloud and Corrin's viability, I'm pretty confident Chrom will be fine too lol.

Especially considering the Chrom analysis Dabuz just did on stream.
What did dabuz say? Link?
 

kendikong

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Chrom's bair killed Dark samus at 120%. If I'm not mistaken I believe that is buffed from Smash 4 Roy.

The thing I didn't like about Roy was his weak kill options from the air. I'm hoping that this time they both have good kill options in the air.
 

Izanagi97

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I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't see Chrom's recovery as a huge problem. It's a weakness, no doubt, but people are treating it like it's S4 Mac tier. Chrom (by extension of Roy) has fantastic aerial drift, meaning he shouldn't have a huge problem at least getting underneath the ledge to take advantage of Aether's decent height. Ike doesn't have the same degree of aerial mobility in his jumps. Characters like Falcon, non-Limit Cloud, Corrin, etc.. seem to have pretty comparable recoveries, if just a little better. Again, this isn't a strong point of Chrom, but it's not that out of the ordinary as far as "meh" recoveries go.

Meanwhile people are comparing his on-stage viability to S4 Roy, but are ignoring how much the dash changes favor characters with good ground speed and tilts. Not to mention that SH aerials have a damage multiplier. Chrom's damage output is equalized, but skewed a little towards Roy's S4 hilt damage. It's impossible to know for sure how much will transfer over, but S4 Roy's combo game had potential, it was just held back by poor approach options and inconsistencies thanks to the sour/sweetspots. Chrom's changes and Ultimate's mechanical changes go a long way to fix these two issues.
Did this person happen to be that one guy on GameFAQs who complains about echoes?
 

ArkhaosZero

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Did this person happen to be that one guy on GameFAQs who complains about echoes?

Chrom having "recovery as bad as Mac" is a pretty common sentiment that I'm seeing just around. Streams, Reddit, even this thread.

I just hopped back on Smash boards after years, so I'm afraid I don't know who you're referring to. Is this dude notorious for downplaying any Echo's out of spite or something?
 

ArkhaosZero

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Dabuz seems a bit down on them too. Better than bottom tier because of system changes to dAD and run cancel, but their ground attacks best be safe on shield.

Chrom is easy-mode Roy.

Roy's our boy. Chrom's our mom.
I get what you're saying, but I think it's going to be more nuanced than that. I don't believe that it's going to be a Marth-Lucina situation, where a lot of their practical differences boil down to differing matchups.

As you noted, base mechanic changes are very favorable for Roy and Chrom. Any characters that have good movement (which they have some of the best) and quick OoD options will benefit heavily. Roy pretty much just had Nair1 and dash grabs, but his tool set has expanded to Dtilt, Utilt, Double Edge Dance, and potentially even uncharged Flare Blade on small advantage (it's got decent speed for a move of that nature, and is incredibly lagless, so you can wall out counterattacks on whiff, just a matter of if an uncharged Flare will do anything useful). This is great for a character of his build. In addition, some of Roy's previous weaknesses (like landing) are weaker across the board, so he's less of a stand out in that category.

Dabuz touched on something that's important-- "Chrom's range is better, because Roy tipper may as well not exist". Obviously not 100% accurate, but as far as approaching it does indeed make a huge difference. An attack being safe on shield is one part frame data, one part opponent's OoS move options, and one part range. A lot of Roy's attacks would be safe on shield if only it did more damage. Chrom's attacks being even might be the push needed for this. I'd be pretty surprised if Fair1 wasn't safe, and Uair supposedly got a landing lag reduction as well.
Of course, Roy's uneven blade as application in combos once he's successfully in, in addition to high burst kill power on reads and traps, so the tipper-hilt dynamic isn't as one sided as people are making it.

I predict that Chrom will be a more defacto "glass cannon" take on Roy's build, where as Roy will be more versatile, and likely more punish focused. Roy's recovery is a hell of a lot less linear, so he'll be able to take advantage of their decent weight class better, while Chrom will die earlier on average, but Chrom seems to have the tools to offensively push more, and will be able to go deeper off stage for better follow ups.

Either way, I think the system changes will be kind to them.
 

_Sheik

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Why should I heed and trust the warning of a person who claims Echoes are less than clones when that's factually wrong?
 
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