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I Think Melee is overated

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PCHU

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Thanks.

But seriously enough, moving faster doesn't make something more competitive.
I've seen pro Snake matches.
I honestly could not stand watching it, it was too boring and campy.
But if that's your mindset for Brawl as a whole, then of course Melee wins.

I'm just saying, Brawl can be fast, and since you don't have wavedash or l-canceling, it gives you less to work with, so you have to make due.
Does that not show competitive?
You work harder for a victory.
You must use even more mindgames then before.
See my point?


And no, I never said my Marth is better than M2K's.
How could I know?
It's not like I play pros.
All I know is that I have the same tech skill as him, and I adapt to matches quickly.
I just want to battle him someday to prove myself worthy.
But that will probably never happen.
 

JrdnS

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Thanks.

But seriously enough, moving faster doesn't make something more competitive.
I've seen pro Snake matches.
I honestly could not stand watching it, it was too boring and campy.
But if that's your mindset for Brawl as a whole, then of course Melee wins.

I'm just saying, Brawl can be fast, and since you don't have wavedash or l-canceling, it gives you less to work with, so you have to make due.
Does that not show competitive?
You work harder for a victory.
You must use even more mindgames then before.
See my point?
you dont have to work harder for a victory in brawl. melee takes so much more time to get good at. and to win consistenly.

o i thought thats what you said when you said "but my marth is way better than his". i thought you were talking about m2k. guess not.
 

strangely mundane

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I'm just saying, Brawl can be fast, and since you don't have wavedash or l-canceling, it gives you less to work with, so you have to make due.
Does that not show competitive?
You work harder for a victory.
You must use even more mindgames then before.
See my point?
But wavedashing and l-cancelling and things like this add so many more options to melee that more thought has to be put into every move.
 

PCHU

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I guess I'm not seeing this.
I know you have to work harder to get better, so I get where you're coming from.

Whatever, though.

They're both great games, and I'll leave it at that before I start getting hate messages from people I don't even know.
 

PCHU

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You don't what? Have to work harder to go pro in Melee than you do in Brawl? Yeah, ya do...any nub can pick up Brawl and be whipping on the pros, if not putting up a fight...in Melee, you need years of practice to be any good...
AYAYAYAYAY.
That is LIE!

I've killed many a n00b at Brawl.
You can't just pick it up and dominate.
You forget that they who don't know DI or Shielding fail in an epic fashion against the Ikesmash and various other stupid things.
 

Cinder

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Jag förstår inte. Vad sa du?
AYAYAYAYAY.
That is LIE!

I've killed many a n00b at Brawl.
You can't just pick it up and dominate.
You forget that they who don't know DI or Shielding fail in an epic fashion against the Ikesmash and various other stupid things.
Still, the point is...it takes more time and practice to get good at Melee than it does Brawl...
 

daisey

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Brawl is overrated.
/thread


This is ignorance at its finest right here. Gameplay is NOT a tie, Melee kills Brawl in that. Sure, Brawl has more stuff but not a lot of people USE that stuff. Brawl TOOK OUT stuff that A LOT of people used.
agreed, enough said

You don't what? Have to work harder to go pro in Melee than you do in Brawl? Yeah, ya do...any nub can pick up Brawl and be whipping on the pros, if not putting up a fight...in Melee, you need years of practice to be any good...
Nothing but the truth here Pchu. You cant play melee for 1 month and hope to win an actual tournament, wtf.

AYAYAYAYAY.
That is LIE!

I've killed many a n00b at Brawl.
You can't just pick it up and dominate.
You forget that they who don't know DI or Shielding fail in an epic fashion against the Ikesmash and various other stupid things.
sure you killed many noobs at brawl, but it dosent take skill to win brawl matches, my theory is that someone whose never played brawl, but has played melee (is good at it) can beat many noobs or actual brawlers thats been playing for months. I do it all the time and i play brawl on very rare occasions.
 

ElvenKing

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I'm just saying, Brawl can be fast, and since you don't have wavedash or l-canceling, it gives you less to work with, so you have to make due.
Does that not show competitive?
You work harder for a victory.
You must use even more mindgames then before.
See my point?
Yes but because you have less to work with there are less mindgames. Which means you are forced to use the few that there are over and over making you more predictable, decreasing the chances of your opponent falling for them.

Do you work really harder for victory? I think it's more you wait longer for your opponent to make a big mistake so you can get a couple of hits on them. While essentially it is same in Melee, the sheer amount of options made it easier to trick people and the faster pace meant that even if you made a small error you would be in trouble. Then when you did get hit you would have a combo to try and get out of by mixing up the direction you DI'ed, which means your opponent has to watch your DI closely to continue the combo, also there is all the time you have to spend practicing tech skill; I'd say that you have to work harder for victory in Melee.

Yes your point is correct you do have to use more mindgames in brawl; because you have to get pass your opponents defences more often because there are hardly any combos, and thanks to the slower pace and fewer options these mindgames don't work as often, which leads a long, drawn out, boring campfest.
 

BrawlBro

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Im gonna be so hated for this :( Melee to me got boring faster then Brawl Cause I get tired of fighting computers cause my friends suck. At Brawl I can play with my Internets friends who PWN me. All I hate in Brawl is the SSE. But Metal gear solid 4 owns all those Smash games :p
(LOL FLAME WAR IS GONNA START!!!!!!)

honestly, you get the award for worst thread ever made ever. Is this OP serious? You throw in a random MGS4 to boot. Please do smashboards a favor and never make a thread again.
 

L__

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Please close this before it turns into a massive flame fest.

*looks around*

...too late.
 

Zodiac

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Saying this in the Melee section? You want to start a flame war, don't you?

Don't EVER use your friends sucking as an excuse...go to a tournament...get your *** handed to you by pros, THEN try and tell me Melee's over-rated...trust me, you'll feel differently...
Seriously, I just did this very thing, frankly I was getting little bored in melee, and right now I truly realize how far I have to go, it got me excited to know that being one of the best in Oregon meant **** while getting ***** by the socal community as a whole and watching silentfox and mango fox ditto. I really do have a long way to go.

I Think Barwl is overated
Truth
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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I don't like how melee fans keep saying melee->brawl because it's faster and requires more tech skill and fast reactions, you're sort of making the community look stupid. Any good fighting game (or any good competitive game in general) should be about outsmarting your opponent, making the right decisions and adapting yourself according to what your opponent is doing.
Which is what melee is about at it's core.

This means that any good fighting game needs a rock/papers/scissors system (with more options then that off course, but you get the idea) where all different options you have are good for different situation. One option can't win all the time: that would be broken. If rock beat both papers and scissors rock would be broken and the game rock/papers/scissors would be worthless.
THIS is where brawl fails. In that game, there are certain things that are just ridicilously overpowered and almost always wins. Like shieldcamping. Shieldcamping in Brawl is like rock in a rock/papers/scissors where rock beats bother papers and scissors. Get it?
 

KosukeKGA

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It's just that.

Some Brawl noobs make it seem like it has a good RockPaperScissors thing going for it while also thinking Melee is just "mashing buttons and memorizing combos."

 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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Yes, exactly. And then some melee fans (not all, off course not) come and say that melee is better because its faster blablabla, essentially supporting stupidity of this kind:
I'm just saying, Brawl can be fast, and since you don't have wavedash or l-canceling, it gives you less to work with, so you have to make due.
Does that not show competitive?
You work harder for a victory.
You must use even more mindgames then before.

See my point?.
And then some random dude comes and says "ZOMG BUT MELEE HAS COMBOZ AND SPEED", which isn't very relevant when it comes to it's potential as a compeitive game (although combos makes melee a whole lot more fun imo). [And off course there are aspects of combos that matter in competitive fighting games: like how much a mistake costs so to speak. for example if melee had no combos it wouldn't matter much if you put yourself in the risk of being hit by a fast low damage attack since it wouldnt lead to anything more then 3% damage anyway. But as the game works now, something as small and weak as a jab can lead to a grab which can lead to death)
The Melee vs Brawl debate has become something like "mindgames vs combos and speed" which is a discussion that does not make sense since Brawl does not require more mindgames then melee and because melee has more then speed and combos. Sometimes people even bring in things like graphics, sound and features which makes it all even more stupid. (this would matter if you where discussing 1 player games or something like that)

The debate should be about which game has the best rock/papers/scissors system.
 

ElvenKing

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I don't like how melee fans keep saying melee->brawl because it's faster and requires more tech skill and fast reactions, you're sort of making the community look stupid. Any good fighting game (or any good competitive game in general) should be about outsmarting your opponent, making the right decisions and adapting yourself according to what your opponent is doing.
Which is what melee is about at it's core.

This means that any good fighting game needs a rock/papers/scissors system (with more options then that off course, but you get the idea) where all different options you have are good for different situation. One option can't win all the time: that would be broken. If rock beat both papers and scissors rock would be broken and the game rock/papers/scissors would be worthless.
THIS is where brawl fails. In that game, there are certain things that are just ridicilously overpowered and almost always wins. Like shieldcamping. Shieldcamping in Brawl is like rock in a rock/papers/scissors where rock beats bother papers and scissors. Get it?
The reason a lot Melee players say Melee is better than Brawl because it's faster is that they like the faster speed. I agree that speed alone is not a very good reason as it is mainly a personal preference thing, but I don't think I've ever seen this given as the only reason, it is usually given alongside with other more valid reasons.

I completely disagree on tech skill though. This is very important as it gives more options(Unless of course a certain tech is so unbalanced that it becomes the only way to win.) and most importantly makes the skill gap large, which is vital to a competitive game in which two players test their skill against each other to see who's better.

You are correct though that the fact that defensive play is so overpowered is the major problem with Brawl.


[Edit] Combos are vital to a fighting game because it rewards aggressive play, the lack of combos is one of the major factors that makes defensive play so overpowered in Brawl.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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What you're saying about speed not being the only argument used as an argument for melee being better then brawl is absolutely true: there are however people (very few) that claim that melee is better only or mainly because of it being faster. I'm just saying it shouldn't really be a major argument (like you said, it's more of a preference thing)


About the tech skill thing: It's probably true that if Nintendo when making brawl did not try so hard to take away all tech skill in the game there wouldve been more options left (if that was the case, brawl wouldve probably had l canceling).

BUT, if all the tech skill stuff in melee was easy to do, like shffling, l canceling, waveshining, pivoting or just short hopping with certain characters (after lots of practice these things become easier, but really, they are hard, think about when you where just learning it), would the game have less options or have less depth? Not really.

On the other hand... Tech skill does have a role in balancing options: for example, if flatland drillshing was really easy, I'd do it all the time. But as it is now, I'd rather just go for waveshine->grab->uthrow uairs, which does less damage and easier for my opponent to escape.
But on the other hand, if drillshining was made easier to escape aswell (if smash DI:ing the hits in the dair was easy) it would be useless. In fact, Fox's dair would be useless in general since you could just SDI out of it everytime (which would limit fox's options, which would be bad)

Or if perfectly JC:ing shines with fox was easy I could just spam it at people shields until they rolled away, then chase their roll with a perfect WD out of the shine (assuming this is easy aswell) and spam more JC shines until I broke their shield or just hit them through a shieldpoke or when they where vulnerable in the lag from the roll and then combo them off off that. This would obviously be broken.

Or another example: If ledgeteching was easy as pie and anyone could do it consistently, edgeguarding in this game would be useless for any characters that can not effectively kill people off stage. This would make characters who can go offstage to edgeguard overpowered and characters who cant would suck (at edgeguarding which is very important)
This would actually even take away an aspect of the rock/papers/scissors system. For example, sometimes when I am edgeguarded by falcon's dair I meteor cancel instead of edgeteching because meteor canceling is easier so I know I won't mess up. Although ledgeteching really is better, it is risky to do it because it is hard so I can easily mess up (and if I do, I die). If ledgeteching was easy all other options would be pointless, which would take away an element of depth.

So what I'm saying is: tech skill is not an important ingridient in a good competitive game imo. But sometimes it is needed for balancing out certain options (through making the best options hard to perform, like the ledgeteching/meteor canceling example I made), but it should never be the central part of a good competitive game.

It really isn't a problem though, It's not like melee would be better if it didn't require tech skill. I'm just saying it's not that important (imo)
 

HoChiMinhTrail

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melee encouraged a variety of different playstyles... not just fast agro ones...

brawl only encourages one playstyel: defensive/camping.....

thats the main reason that i dont like the game... i dont want to play tha way... the game shouldnt revolve around one ****ing stlye of play..
 

ElvenKing

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What you're saying about speed not being the only argument used as an argument for melee being better then brawl is absolutely true: there are however people (very few) that claim that melee is better only or mainly because of it being faster. I'm just saying it shouldn't really be a major argument (like you said, it's more of a preference thing)


About the tech skill thing: It's probably true that if Nintendo when making brawl did not try so hard to take away all tech skill in the game there wouldve been more options left (if that was the case, brawl wouldve probably had l canceling).

BUT, if all the tech skill stuff in melee was easy to do, like shffling, l canceling, waveshining, pivoting or just short hopping with certain characters (after lots of practice these things become easier, but really, they are hard, think about when you where just learning it), would the game have less options or have less depth? Not really.

On the other hand... Tech skill does have a role in balancing options: for example, if flatland drillshing was really easy, I'd do it all the time. But as it is now, I'd rather just go for waveshine->grab->uthrow uairs, which does less damage and easier for my opponent to escape.
But on the other hand, if drillshining was made easier to escape aswell (if smash DI:ing the hits in the dair was easy) it would be useless. In fact, Fox's dair would be useless in general since you could just SDI out of it everytime (which would limit fox's options, which would be bad)

Or if perfectly JC:ing shines with fox was easy I could just spam it at people shields until they rolled away, then chase their roll with a perfect WD out of the shine (assuming this is easy aswell) and spam more JC shines until I broke their shield or just hit them through a shieldpoke or when they where vulnerable in the lag from the roll and then combo them off off that. This would obviously be broken.

Or another example: If ledgeteching was easy as pie and anyone could do it consistently, edgeguarding in this game would be useless for any characters that can not effectively kill people off stage. This would make characters who can go offstage to edgeguard overpowered and characters who cant would suck (at edgeguarding which is very important)
This would actually even take away an aspect of the rock/papers/scissors system. For example, sometimes when I am edgeguarded by falcon's dair I meteor cancel instead of edgeteching because meteor canceling is easier so I know I won't mess up. Although ledgeteching really is better, it is risky to do it because it is hard so I can easily mess up (and if I do, I die). If ledgeteching was easy all other options would be pointless, which would take away an element of depth.

So what I'm saying is: tech skill is not an important ingridient in a good competitive game imo. But sometimes it is needed for balancing out certain options (through making the best options hard to perform, like the ledgeteching/meteor canceling example I made), but it should never be the central part of a good competitive game.

It really isn't a problem though, It's not like melee would be better if it didn't require tech skill. I'm just saying it's not that important (imo)
Well if all those thing were extremely easy you could hardly call them tech skill anymore.

When we say tech skill, we mean something that is hard and takes time to practice so you can do it consistently, that opens up more options(Without being overpowered of course.), something that increases the skill gap.

While not absolutely essential to a competitive game, tech skill adds depth and makes the skill gap larger, this makes the game even better competitively, which is why so many Melee supporters consider it important and cite it as a major reason why Melee is better than Brawl.
 

andrewg

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IMO whichever game has the best vs. mode wins out... melee > brawl.

Sure you can do more in brawl, but fighting each other is the main goal here. In terms of vs. mode, melee just pwns brawl. havbe you played melee?
 

ElvenKing

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IMO whichever game has the best vs. mode wins out... melee > brawl.

Sure you can do more in brawl, but fighting each other is the main goal here. In terms of vs. mode, melee just pwns brawl. havbe you played melee?
Is this directed at me? If it is I suggest you should read my posts more closely.
I completely agree that Melee is a better game.

Yes I have had Melee for a about 2 years, though I only really started looking into the advanced game about a year ago. I've never been to a tournament though, I should really stop being so lazy and go and find one in my area.
 
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