I personally believe that FD should be a CP.

[GHNeko]

Link to original post: [drupal=2586]I personally believe that FD should be a CP.[/drupal]



It's the worst neutral in this game and imo, deserves to be CP material because the whole roster cannot abuse the stage's attributes on near even basis. That's what the purpose of a CP is for. To give your character a better advantage. This is why people do not normally CP neutrals because there are stages that will personally give your character a better advantage. FD is one of those stages in a tourney setting. As diddy, if someone does NOT ban FD, that will be my 1st choice by instinct. Same as Falco. Same as Snake. Same as characters who can abuse the LACK OF ANYTHING and exploit it enough to noticeably shift the match up advantage in their favor. FD is the only neutral like that.

if anything, the hazard of FD is the fact that there ARE NO HAZARDS. That in itself is a hazard that I now realize about the stage. There is NOTHING there. No walls. No platforms. No anything.

FD is more of a CP than a Neutral. It deserves to drop down into CPs. No other neutral gives you something to abuse so easily and give you noticeable results. At all. All the other neutral's have attributes that give near negligible advantages to the roster. FD is not like that.

I don't know how much I must stress myself to get this point across.

FD. Is. CP. Worthy.

Of course, because FD is FD. It's not going to be a CP until Sakurai comes out and says "I support competitive Smash". And when that happens, MLG will flock to the Smash Workshop on SWF and tell all the Brawl+ players, "WE CAN SUPPORT YOU NOW." And 64 players will finally get attention from the smash community all around. SBR will actually make intelligent decisions 110% of the time, and AiB will be rid of all the trolls and attention whores and the community will buckle down, and SRK will take Smash seriously on the same level as Street Fighter and Tekken, and all the casual players will say in unison, "It's okay, Smash community, we respect your style of play, and realize there is more than one way to play." and the tourney***s will play with items for the first time!

...

Right.


FD should be a CP. SV/BF/YI for the 3 starters, and if you need 5, SV/BF/YI/DP/Pkmn 1 for Brawl.

in Brawl+, SV/BF/PS2, for 5, SV/BF/PS2/WW/YI

</endrant>

 

[Kinzer]

I'd put Pkmn Stad I as a neutral before I put YI:B.

This is assuming this was actually going to happen.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Well, what made Melee's Final Destination a neutral? The only major difference I see between Brawl's Final Destination and Melee's are the ledges (and maybe the general proportion between the size of the stage and the size of the characters). The fact that the stage is simply flat may cater to certain characters (which is what a counterpick does), but you could say the same about the platforms in Battlefield.

 

[Sucumbio]

I agree but that dude from aib will prolly troll u :D
'bout starters and junk tho

radical idea:

Starter: BF. I mean really which character has the worst trouble on this stage? Or Characters? vs the Advantages a Chr or chrs gets on FD. More on FD than on BF right?

Then cp from there. Start all brawls on BF tho, then go, FD/SV/YI(B)

Then Delfino, PK2, Halberd, Picto, blah blah basically any other stages from here involve more than 1 obscurity, and if you're a purist then, FD is as lifeless as BF, just longer, and no platforms... YI(B) changes with the seasons, all 4 of them... Smashville changes with the ... whatever, and is less ... changing than YI(B), so FD then SV then YI(B) then the rest.

 

[Cia]

does WW stand for wifi waiting room?

If so, I cannot take this seriously.

Also, I love FD as a neutral. platforms always get in the way.

 

[bobson]

Lylat Cruise is infinitely fairer as a starter than FD.

 

[DanGR]

Yoshi's Island and FD are both jank stages as starters... so is Lylat... and so is Pokemon Stadium 1.

The closest you'll get to actual neutral stages are Battlefield and Smashville. That even number doesn't cater to the people that stage strike, though.

And to avoid any more confusion, they're not called neutrals. They're called starters.
Everyone knows none of them are neutral, lol.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, what made Melee's Final Destination a neutral? The only major difference I see between Brawl's Final Destination and Melee's are the ledges (and maybe the general proportion between the size of the stage and the size of the characters). The fact that the stage is simply flat may cater to certain characters (which is what a counterpick does), but you could say the same about the platforms in Battlefield.

What made Melee's FD different that Brawl's FD is the GAME itself. The mechanics. The engines. The ROSTER. It's what contains the FD's that make them so dramatically different.

Also, ledges.

does WW stand for wifi waiting room?

If so, I cannot take this seriously.

Also, I love FD as a neutral. platforms always get in the way.

WW = WarioWare, WWR = Wifi Waiting Room.

Lylat Cruise is infinitely fairer as a starter than FD.

This. This. THIS SO MUCH. AND THAT STAGE IS OBVIOUSLY A **** CP.

Yoshi's Island and FD are both jank stages as starters... so is Lylat... and so is Pokemon Stadium 1.

The closest you'll get to actual neutral stages are Battlefield and Smashville. That even number doesn't cater to the people that stage strike, though.

And to avoid any more confusion, they're not called neutrals. They're called starters.
Everyone knows none of them are neutral, lol.

YI:B is more of a neutral than FD.

and i know about neutrals/starters. I just switch between them by habit.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

just strike it. you dont have to play it. its very very simple
if someone wants to play here they will just CP you

 

[GHNeko]

I know about the strike system. That's not the point. Hell, considering I play Brawl+, stage striking is a lot more important than in Brawl, at least imo.

The point is I dont think FD should be a stater. It should be a CP.

Also, certain tourneys have that one rule where they pick random starter stages. >_>

 

[Browny]

Yo FD, im really happy for you and imma let you finish, but Smashville is the greatest neutral of all time. OF ALL TIME

/me runs and hides

As much as I hate FD, I hate the other stages more (for certain characters). sometimes BF can force a character CP just the same as FD.

 

[GHNeko]

lol what @ BF.

Explain. Please.

 

[theunabletable]

Yoshi's Island sucks as a neutral. Slopes can screw up CGs by ICs and such, those ledges that come up can save people, etc. It's definitely a CP, but, imo, it's not a neutral.

Sure FD can be abused, but if you're playing someone who can abuse it aren't you going to ban/strike it anyway? I mean if you're playing, like, Snake or Falco you're going to strike FD first. Thus problem solved.

 

[GHNeko]

Striking the stage isnt want im talking about. Hell.

The fact you HAVE to strike the stage means its a CP. Not a starter.

I just want the stage is its appropriate category.

And YI is a better starter than FD. And the stage screwing up ICs CG isnt really a legit statement as they can STILL grab **** you hard there. And as for the ledges that come up to save people? Smashville says hi.

 

[theunabletable]

^So BF should be a CP since you have to strike BF against Marth?

How does Smashville have any ledges that come up from the blastzone to save you?

 

[GHNeko]

SV has a platform that floats in to save you and its more likely too because you can see that **** coming, unlike YI which is random and gives no warning.

and striking BF against Marth isn't required unlike FD against Falco or Diddy. Hell. It's not required at all.

 

[theunabletable]

A platform that is beside the ledge (close enough that aerial momentum will usually get you to the edge anyway) is different from a ledge that comes from the blast zone and saves you from pretty much everything.

It's not "required", but he plays extremely well there. So almost everyone is going to strike it anyway.

And what's the problem with auto-striking FD? By that logic Japes should be perma banned because you HAVE to ban it against Falco.

 

[GHNeko]

The thing is. Japes is already a CP. It's CP banned actually

FD is a starter. It shouldn't be a starter. That's the whole point of my rant.

I have no issues with FD other than its ledges and how its considered a starter in brawl, and especially Brawl+ when there are 6 stages more starter worthy than FD in Brawl+

And Randell Jr doesnt save you from pretty much everything. He saves you when he feels like it, and only in a specific spot. :V

Doesnt stop the fact that SV can save you from losing a stock, just like Randell Jr. which was my point.

Marth plays well on all platform stages. he's just good with platforms. He plays well on BF and SV. Luigis and Lylat. Hell. He probably plays better on Lylat than BF.

 

[theunabletable]

And Randell Jr doesnt save you from pretty much everything. He saves you when he feels like it, and only in a specific spot. :V

I didn't mean it would consistently save you, I meant that if you get saved there is almost nothing your opponent can do to stop it because you're too far away from the ledge.

The problem is that it is completely random (I think) when it happens. Whereas with SV you can see the platform coming the whole time. And your opponent can react accordingly to your actions.

Sorry I didn't know that Japes is CP/banned. I've never been to a tourney in SoCal without it on CP.

SV can save you from losing a stock, but your opponent can react to you going towards the platform and do something. It's not that he just got a successful gimp and you're all the way at the bottom of the stage and get saved. And, even though SV CAN save you from a gimp, most gimps aren't ABOVE the stage...

You haven't said anything bad about Brawl FD other than it's ledges and the fact that you have to auto-strike it against Falco/Diddy. BF in Melee was MOST DEFINITELY a starter, but those ledges were just as bad as FD. And you haven't said anything wrong with certain stages being auto-striked.

 

[GHNeko]

I didn't mean it would consistently save you, I meant that if you get saved there is almost nothing your opponent can do to stop it because you're too far away from the ledge.

lolwut. Randell Jr pops right next to the stage. <_<

The problem is that it is completely random (I think) when it happens. Whereas with SV you can see the platform coming the whole time. And your opponent can react accordingly to your actions.

Point stands that they both can still save you. And you can react to both situations, even though YI's is more or less completely reaction-basd.

Sorry I didn't know that Japes is CP/banned. I've never been to a tourney in SoCal without it on CP.

IIRC, SBR stage list says CP/Banned. Probably CP. I'd have to Double check. I dont play Brawl.

SV can save you from losing a stock, but your opponent can react to you going towards the platform and do something. It's not that he just got a successful gimp and you're all the way at the bottom of the stage and get saved. And, even though SV CAN save you from a gimp, most gimps aren't ABOVE the stage...

A gimp is a gimp. Also, sometimes the player is in the position to recover to the ledge or to the platform, and in that scenario, your opponent can't really predict what you're gonna do. He just has to sorta guess.

You haven't said anything bad about Brawl FD other than it's ledges and the fact that you have to auto-strike it against Falco/Diddy. BF in Melee was MOST DEFINITELY a starter, but those ledges were just as bad as FD. And you haven't said anything wrong with certain stages being auto-striked.

BF/YI/SV all have aspects that are near equally abuseable by the WHOLE ROSTER.

FD has aspects that are more abuseable by specific characters compared to the whole roster.

No single stages doesnt give advantages to characters, but all the starters/neutrals except FD give similar boosts to the whole roster. Matchups are never greatly affected by stages like BF/YI/SV. FD is the only neutral/starter that can sway a match up by a noticeable amount when specific characters are used.

The traits of FD more accurately fit the traits of a CP rather than a starter.

 

[bmaster77]

i think that is fine

 

[theunabletable]

lolwut. Randell Jr pops right next to the stage. <_<

Except it's completely random and by the time it happens your opponent has both of their jumps back and can usually get back to the stage.

Point stands that they both can still save you. And you can react to both situations, even though YI's is more or less completely reaction-basd.

What's the difference between random tripping from a dash and getting hit by a banana? The fact that one is completely and utterly random and there is no way to know if/when it is going to happen. YI is completely random, SV you can see the platform coming the whole way.

A gimp is a gimp. Also, sometimes the player is in the position to recover to the ledge or to the platform, and in that scenario, your opponent can't really predict what you're gonna do. He just has to sorta guess.

Umm prediction IS guessing...

And you can actually tell that the opponent can land on the SV platform, whereas YI is retardedly random.

BF/YI/SV all have aspects that are near equally abuseable by the WHOLE ROSTER.

Marth and MK can abuse BF far more than a lot of other characters.

I mean if the platforms on BF and Lylat are so easily abused by Marth then how is that ANY different than Diddy and Falco playing really well on FD? It's the same thing (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

 

[Pink Reaper]

You also believe in Sega, so obviously your reasoning in everything is flawed.

/strawman

 

[Teran]

Bring this up in WBR or to whichever SBRoomer you talk to.

 

[Red Arremer]

Let's have no starters at all, since Battlefield and Smashville also benefit or disadvantage several characters like Final Destination do.

 

[_Keno_]

BF, SV, and LC just don't benefit or disadvantage several characters as much as FD. The stages that are the most fair should be neutrals, even if they are still not completely fair.

I have a personal grudge against FD, so just ignore me. xD

 

[Teran]

Let's not play competitive Smash at all, since all the games are pretty imbalanced.

 

[Noobicidal]

This isn't Stage Discussion.

=/

 

[UltiMario]

This isn't Stage Discussion.

=/

Nah, it'd be locked by now if this was Stage Discussion.

In all seriousness, we have what, 4 or 5 characters that can SERIOUSLY abuse FD?
We also have 6 characters that make up most of the metagame. It just so happens that 3 of those characters can abuse FD.

Its simply a cooincidence that 3 of the best characters in the game can abuse FD. Its no that its something that causes a CP, its just random luck. This same thread probably appeared in an alterenate dimention on Smashville because all the top characters were broken there instead.

 

[GHNeko]

Except it's completely random and by the time it happens your opponent has both of their jumps back and can usually get back to the stage.

Meh. If you're being attentive though. You're still given the positional advantage, but w/e. The concept of both stages being able to save is my original point, despite the conditions around them.

What's the difference between random tripping from a dash and getting hit by a banana? The fact that one is completely and utterly random and there is no way to know if/when it is going to happen. YI is completely random, SV you can see the platform coming the whole way.

Above statement.

Umm prediction IS guessing...

Whooops.


And you can actually tell that the opponent can land on the SV platform, whereas YI is retardedly random.

My point was how based on position, an opponent wont be able to tell if your going left or right which is somewhat similar to your opponent not being able to tell if Randell Jr will save you or not.

Personally, I always expect it so when it does happen, I'm ready for it and I can punish accordingly, which I usually do if it happens.

Marth and MK can abuse BF far more than a lot of other characters.

Because Marth excels with Platforms and MK is MK. Far more characters can do a lot more with BF and SV than they can with FD. That's my point about FD.

I mean if the platforms on BF and Lylat are so easily abused by Marth then how is that ANY different than Diddy and Falco playing really well on FD? It's the same thing (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Because a good portion of the roster gains from platforms and general layout of stages like BF and Lylat (albeit Lylat in a lesser fashion since its a debated CP/Starter rather than a flat out CP)
Only characters can abuse FD which is considered a starter, like they do, and when they do, they gain more than when a character like Marth abuses Lylat which is already considered a CP.

Bring this up in WBR or to whichever SBRoomer you talk to.

I already brought it up with WBR. I don't even know who to talk to for SBR and stages.

Let's have no starters at all, since Battlefield and Smashville also benefit or disadvantage several characters like Final Destination do.

Not the point I was making, Oni-Chan. <3

Nah, it'd be locked by now if this was Stage Discussion.

In all seriousness, we have what, 4 or 5 characters that can SERIOUSLY abuse FD?
We also have 6 characters that make up most of the metagame. It just so happens that 3 of those characters can abuse FD.

Its simply a cooincidence that 3 of the best characters in the game can abuse FD. Its no that its something that causes a CP, its just random luck. This same thread probably appeared in an alterenate dimention on Smashville because all the top characters were broken there instead.

Well, I'm not looking at the 6 characters the metagame uses. I'm looking at the whole roster. When you make Mid/Low Tiers matter. Link, Toon Link, Samus, Pit, Fox. These characters benefit way more on FD than the rest of the roster (sans top tiers)

But I'm not counting mid/low tiers because they dont matter in Brawl metagame. They do in B+, making their potential abuse viable, and the percentage of the roster that can abuse FD go up to practically a quarter of the cast, making FD MORE of a CP than anything.

I'm not talking about stage picks in the least. I'm not talking about banning or whatever.

I'm simply ranting on how a starter shows the most potent qualities of being a CP over all the staters. More characters can abuse it compared to BF or SV and the advantaged gained by said abuse is larger than abuse on BF and SV. BF and SV are considered the most balanced stages in the game because their advantages/disadvantages spawn the whole roster.

FD isnt like that, and those who are affected are more greatly affected.

FD is the most common CP choice out of all the starters as well.

This stage shouldn't be a starter.

You also believe in Sega, so obviously your reasoning in everything is flawed.

/strawman

o u

 

[Delvro]

I strongly agree that FD should be a counterpick (In the midwest circuit, it is!)

You know a stage should not be a neutral when character boards change their match up numbers if the match is played on FD (and not the other neutrals).

Also, in nearly every case I've seen, FD always either gets struck first, second, or not at all.

 

[GHNeko]

Midwest Circuit knows where it's at then.

 

[Espy Rose]

Doesn't the Midwestern Circuit also have Custom Stages on their stage list?

 

[Teran]

I already brought it up with WBR. I don't even know who to talk to for SBR and stages.

You're from TX. Hylian is one of the SBR leaders. Seems like a decent guy to talk to it about.

 

[Circa]

Doesn't the Midwestern Circuit also have Custom Stages on their stage list?

Yes, it does. Is that a bad thing?

 

[Espy Rose]

Yes, it does. Is that a bad thing?

Never said it was wrong, silly.

 

[Circa]

Never said it was wrong, silly.

YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.

Jk jk. I figured I'd just offer the chance to debate over the topic, if that's what you were looking to do. <.<

 

[Espy Rose]

YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.

Jk jk. I figured I'd just offer the chance to debate over the topic, if that's what you were looking to do. <.<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr-tTdg4qsE

lol.
And no, I won't debate it under the basis of "don't knock it til you try it".
It sounds interesting enough, and some of the levels I've actually made and played on myself. They were quite fun.

 

[Flayl]

I don't get it, in a lot of matchups FD is truely a neutral, if it's not, it's striked. Where is the problem?

 

[deepseadiva]

I think in general, which means not including Falco and Diddy, the stage provides a good number of near-neutral starting matches. At least I'd have it over Delfino or Castle Siege.

It is indeed one of the most intrusive maps of the starters, but then again, if grouped with CPs, it would be one of the least intrusive of the CPs. It's definitely on the edge.

Being realistic though - the use of seven starter stages really minimizes FD's damage. Too bad no one uses seven starters.

HINT HINT