I have doubts about Ike being capable of competitive gameplay.

[Heretique]

These are just my thoughts--I could be wrong, and I really hope I am.

Ike is far too slow to be a useable character in competitive (pro) matches. The fault isn't that his attacks start up slow, it's that they RECOVER slow. The only attacks that have alright recovery are his uTilt, fTilt, dTilt, bAir and of course his 3-hit A combo.

All his smash attacks have slow recovery and are very easily punished. That's not to say they don't rock, but a side step or perfect shield and you're wide open for counter attack.

Eruption is nice for occasional situations but again, it is easily punished.

Aether is a nice recovery move, but it's also easily punished. Spamming it on a ledge is just asking for you to be knocked off again at the top of your aether.

Quick Draw is virtually useless except maybe for spacing. When you're using it to recover, any good opponent will just hop in front of you and if you release and attack them, you're done for. (As you know, you can't perform any action after attacking from Quick Draw until you land) It can be used to catch your opponent off guard, but if it's shielded (and there's a high chance it will be) you have to recover from your slash, giving them plenty of time to punish you.

I don't have much to say about his Counter. The activation delay seems cumbersome but who knows, it could be used quite well.

Basically, with shield techniques alone I think Ike is the ultimate punishable character, thus giving him no spot in competitive gameplay and making him low tier.

I know it's early to make these judgements already, but it seems a bit obvious to me. I'd love to be proven wrong!

--

And before someone goes "but I pwn my brother with Ike all the time!" ... I'm talking about competitive professional level of gameplay. Ike is no doubt a noob killer, but does he have a place in skilled gameplay?

 

[Mike Hawk]

i've been thinking the same thing, but im the kind of guy who does not stop playing a character just because they suck.

plus the more challenging the more fun.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Lol, Ike is actually a really good character, easily in the better half of the game's characters.

 

[Circus]

Lol, Ike is actually a really good character, easily in the better half of the game's characters.

Since Heretique went to the trouble of explaining why he thinks Ike is in bad shape, it would be cool if you could explain why you think he's not (instead of just stating that he's not). Because, at this point, I pretty much agree with everything he said.

If you know of a way around all that recovery time, do tell. Otherwise, I don't know how you can justify calling Ike a tourney-wothy character.

 

[Heretique]

Since Heretique went to the trouble of explaining why he thinks Ike is in bad shape, it would be cool if you could explain why you think he's not (instead of just stating that he's not). Because, at this point, I pretty much agree with everything he said.

If you know of a way around all that recovery time, do tell. Otherwise, I don't know how you can justify calling Ike a tourney-wothy character.

Stole the words outta my mouth ;P

 

[Hey_its_YO]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148611

look at first place in teams and singles >.>

 

[SCOTU]

Most people place Ike in Mid tier, because in addition to being easily punished, he's also pretty much the best punisher.

 

[t0furkey]

I do agree with you to some extent here; it's very true that a lot of Ike's moves have really horrible recovery and if used unsuccessfully, you more likely than not will be punished for that.

However, what you did mention was that he does have attacks that have decent recovery. I don't claim to be an expert on Brawl (or even Melee, I got into the game really late), but from what I've been playing of Ike so far it seems that spamming these moves is the best way to go.

Ike's weaknesses are in his bad recovery times, but this can be easily avoided by not leaving yourself in these kinds of situations. Smashing is only really viable when you know you can easily predict what your opponent will do. However, even then it's not entirely necessary because his faster attacks are good enough to do the necessary damage. Ftilt utilt and bair have good power and knockback, and neutral A is fast and strong enough to rack up substantial damage in between.

You're right about Eruption. It's only really useful as an attack to use while falling, and I don't really think that there are any other uses for it.

Aether spam at edges is stupid and easily counterable, but I wouldn't really say that's a flaw that keeps Ike from being competitive.

Quick Draw really is only for spacing, but I find that to be essential. Judging your QD distance is very important, and that can easily be improved/corrected through practice. I never use it as an attack simply because, as you mentioned, its recovery is horrendous. However, the lack of recovery lag after a miss is quite good.

Counter is counter, really. I don't think there's anything special or glaringly bad about it, though it is a bit on the slow side.

In short, Ike does have some pretty bad recovery times on his moves but he does have a good enough arsenal otherwise to make up for that. Despite their lag, his smash attacks are amazingly powerful when landed. Needless to say I don't think he's the best in the game, but I do think that Brawl is balanced enough for him to remain competitive despite his weaknesses.

 

[nitro-blazer]

His Neutral air has good recovery if you land during it, and IMO is one of his better moves all around.

My main issue with him is projectiles, that's why I can see him being left out of the higher tiers.

 

[thecatinthehat]

You talk of Ike like he has to be played how Melee was played.. Combos,combos, combos. NO.
It's ether approach with an attack to keep them away OR defend with an attack to keep them away.
It's like being an aggressive tank.
His moves are just not made to be strung together. My highest combo with him is like what, 2-3 moves?

 

[Wolt]

You talk of Ike like he has to be played how Melee was played.. Combos,combos, combos. NO.
It's ether approach with an attack to keep them away OR defend with an attack to keep them away.
It's like being an aggressive tank.
His moves are just not made to be strung together. My highest combo with him is like what, 2-3 moves?

^This.

I'll say one of his best combos either utilts to something strong like an usmash, or to a short hop dair, and doing a downthrow to Aether, which racks up quite a bit. I don't have time to pick apart why the TC's argument is wrong, but I'll be back later for that. In short though, hes a more difficult character to use, and doesn't really need combos to be good.

 

[Scrubs]

Ike is a good character at the moment because people are still adjusting to the game. Once people become more fluid at moving,attacking and comboing, Ike will start to struggle.

 

[Zareidriel]

I think that, unlike Melee, Ike's power overrides his disadvantages in terms of competitive gameplay. I think he'll end up more like Potemkin from Guilty Gear; because Potemkin has massive power, his slowness can be forgiven, and he ends up as a high tier character.

 

[Ussi]

the thing is Ike is unmatched in power, his fsmash is arguable the best kill move in the game. You just need to find an opening to hit your foe with, simply wait for your opponent to suffer from after lag and attack. Chars without after lag are usually light so any move from Ike can kill so fsmash is not needed to kill.

The problem with Ike is he can't really do much about spamming projectiles. So far all i have done is just take a beating from them as I charged at my foe. Since Ike is heavy the projectiles don't move him that much so he can tank them and jump.

I believe the only way to effectively use Ike is to outwit your foe. You have to strike where your foe is gonna go otherwise you'll never hit them. At first using your fast attacks like the 3 hit A combo and quick draw to rack up damage for a kill.

Eruption can also be used to edgeguard depending on the situation. If your foe can't land over you then eruption can work just before they grab the edge. And if the foe tries to attack you, you have super armor frames on your side. That's all i have to say.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Since Heretique went to the trouble of explaining why he thinks Ike is in bad shape, it would be cool if you could explain why you think he's not (instead of just stating that he's not). Because, at this point, I pretty much agree with everything he said.

If you know of a way around all that recovery time, do tell. Otherwise, I don't know how you can justify calling Ike a tourney-wothy character.

Ike is more than just tournament worthy. He'll be a major tournament force. I already wrote up a really long post in the Sonic forum about Ike for comparative purposes, so instead of writing something entirely new, I'll just quote it since I'm tired of writing long stuff. The short of it is that Ike has one of the best movesets in the entire game, has broken range, is a defensive monster, and isn't even as slow or punishable as some people claim. Here it is in its entirety.

Ike is a monster and will easily be in the northern half of the tier list. Sonic isn't even close to him. Ike will outrange, outprioritize, outlast, outkill, outrecover Sonic. The only thing he won't do is outrun him. It's hard to determine specific character matchups right now, but just by examining the tools that certain characters have, it's clear that Sonic has very few effective tools to work with, while Ike has a ton. This specific character matchup, Ike vs. Sonic will most likely be bad for Sonic, and most of Sonic's other matchups will probably also be very bad since he doesn't really have anything to work with.

Ike has basically nothing but stellar moves and they all make Sonic's moves look even sillier than they already are. Jab combo, Utilt, nair, bair, upsmash, forward b and upb are all godly, all among the best moves in the entire. Ike's Jab combo pretty much is the best jab combo in the entire game. Then he has a bunch of other really good moves, including uair, fair, dair, dsmash and fsmash. All of this combines to make Ike a defensive powerhouse and allows him to score kills with relative ease in a game in which killing is difficult, while Sonic is among the characters who has exceptional difficulty killing. Just by comparing movesets, the only place where Ike isn't clearly just better is in the throws. Ike can uthrow or dthrow for attempted aether or uair followups, but this fairly escapable, as is Sonic's uthrow to uair or spring chase. The difference is that Ike has all these other ridiculous options out of shield, such as nair, bair, dair, and upb. Dair pops up and possibly leads to usmash, utilt, and then aether or uair follow ups. All of this equals big damage and possibly kills. Bair is really fast and really powerful. Upb is good for the damage. Nair has roughly a 270 degree hit radius, and sets up for other moves fairly well since the animation finishes before Ike hits the ground, meaning no landlag. In general Ike's nair is one of his greatest ubiquitous moves because of the coverage and because it's so safe. You can easily follow it up with jab combos whether it hits or not. If the nair hits it'll pop them up slightly at lower percents and they'll eat the rest of the jab combo. If the nair doesn't gets shielded, the jab combo generally pushes them back enough to make it safe. Sonic's usmash out of shield isn't on par with any of these.

Ike is safer and better than you realize. Forward b pushes shielded opponents back significantly the more it's charged, and is completely lagless if it doesn't connect at all. Characters with projectiles will just shoot Ike here, but characters without projectiles have no easy answer. Sonic doesn't have a projectile. Forward air can be spaced much in the same way Marth's forward air could be spaced in Melee so that you can hit without while remaining out of shieldgrab range. Nair, as mentioned before, is completely lagless on landing. Most attempts to punish Ike will get stuffed by his godly jab combo.

I don't see Sonic penetrating Ike's defense, even with his speed. Ike may not have Marth's speed, but his range and coverage is even more broken than Marth's was in Melee. Nair has roughly 270 degree coverage. Forward air even has roughly 200 degree coverage; it's one of, if not the only, forward air, capable of hitting an opponent behind another player. Forward smash may be slow but it has its utility. It's just a situational move that needs to be used wisely, which is more than can be said for most of Sonic's moves. Techchase with forward smash and you can score a kill. You can see forward smash techchasing in videos of Azen's and Kirk's Ikes. Downsmash isn't as powerful but also has techchasing utility. Upsmash is ridiculous for aerial interception and platform molestation.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I love your posts Radical, lol

 

[comboking]

Well ken is maining Ike I think Azen is maining Ike

plus ike is not that slow I will Try to get a link to a video proving this!

 

[Mercury]

nah, ike is an amazing character. people don't seem to put much emphasis on the impact of how HUGE his sword swinging range is, but just watch Azen's videos with him - he uses Ike perfectly, spacing as much as possible.

 

[Heretique]

nah, ike is an amazing character. people don't seem to put much emphasis on the impact of how HUGE his sword swinging range is, but just watch Azen's videos with him - he uses Ike perfectly, spacing as much as possible.

Azen is pretty mediocre, so if he's the "perfect Ike" then I'm ready to throw in my towel now.

 

[Heretique]

You talk of Ike like he has to be played how Melee was played.. Combos,combos, combos. NO.
It's ether approach with an attack to keep them away OR defend with an attack to keep them away.
It's like being an aggressive tank.
His moves are just not made to be strung together. My highest combo with him is like what, 2-3 moves?

I never even mentioned the word "combo", so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm thinking against a good player, one attack alone could be easily dodged and punished.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Azen is mediocre? Please tell me 3 players off hte top of your head that you've fought in Brawl better than Azen at this point.

This topic is a joke. Ike will be up there when it's all said and done for all the reasons Radical gave

 

[ama(m/t)]

Azen is pretty mediocre, so if he's the "perfect Ike" then I'm ready to throw in my towel now.

joke topic move along

 

[Heretique]

Azen is mediocre? Please tell me 3 players off hte top of your head that you've fought in Brawl better than Azen at this point.

This topic is a joke. Ike will be up there when it's all said and done for all the reasons Radical gave

First of all, the point of this thread isn't to discuss who's good or not, it's to discuss the character's abilities and how far his potential reaches.

Second of all, I would say I'm at Azen's level, but of course that would just come off like I'm full of myself, wouldn't it?

And lastly, point me to a video where Azen does things that shouldn't be otherwise dodged and punished. Because all of the videos I've seen of him, his opponent isn't that good, and on top of that he does silly moves sometimes. He's not pro material, or even competitive material.

By the way guys, where's the proof that Ken is maining Ike in the first place?

 

[Heretique]

By the way all you Azen fanboys, I IM'd him online and this is how it played out (I'm not going to reveal the names to save him from constant IMs, but it's fairly easy to get if you so desired):

Me (3:17:17 PM): is that you in the youtube videos playing ike, or someone else?
Azen (3:17:28 PM): if it says azen it prolly me
Me (3:17:53 PM): then you play him... do you think he's got a chance at pro play?
Azen (3:24:41 PM): not later i dont thnk
Me (3:24:54 PM): you think he's too slow?
Azen (3:39:31 PM): yea he's pretty slow
Azen (3:39:39 PM): doesn't have much options if you think about it

Everything else we talked about was stuff like how he thinks Brawl is fun but he doesn't know if he's good at it, and that he lost to 2 metaknights the last tourney he went to.

 

[ama(m/t)]

so in one post you tell how azen is no good, then in the next post you use the words of "mediocre" azen to try to back your argument

get that fence out of your butt will you

 

[Heretique]

so in one post you tell how azen is no good, then in the next post you use the words of "mediocre" azen to try to back your argument

get that fence out of your butt will you

No, I was just saying that to stop the Azen fanboys. Azen isn't that great, he said it himself (and I typed it for you guys too).

That said, though, I do think Azen's opinion on Ike's competitive potential deserves some credit, but... I still have a little bit of hope for Ike. Just a little.

Edit: Ahem, let me correct myself--Azen isn't that great at brawl.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Azen is probably very good at Brawl. What is your basis for saying he isn't? If you've played him, I'll take your word for it there. But if you're just taking his word for it, I wouldn't trust it. I'm pretty sure he's known for being pretty modest, and he's even more known for being absolutely amazing regardless.

 

[Heretique]

Azen is probably very good at Brawl. What is your basis for saying he isn't? If you've played him, I'll take your word for it there. But if you're just taking his word for it, I wouldn't trust it. I'm pretty sure he's known for being pretty modest, and he's even more known for being absolutely amazing regardless.

I'm just going by his youtube videos. In any case, it really doesn't matter...

 

[zelink551]

First off, you really can't claim to have IMed him, anyone can type what you typed. And from the way you talk it seems like you don't know him at all. But its irrelevent. You simply cannot base play off youtube videos. There was a video of SamuraiPanda i believe or Yuoko where people said one of them made lucario look fast, and they were like huh? Simply put, a youtube video doesnt really display the playstyle or a character. A match against them, however, does

 

[Heretique]

First off, you really can't claim to have IMed him, anyone can type what you typed. And from the way you talk it seems like you don't know him at all. But its irrelevent. You simply cannot base play off youtube videos. There was a video of SamuraiPanda i believe or Yuoko where people said one of them made lucario look fast, and they were like huh? Simply put, a youtube video doesnt really display the playstyle or a character. A match against them, however, does

If you think I made it up, why don't you just go to his profile, get his screen name, and ask him if he said it? I'm a supporter of Ike, I don't WANT him to be bad, so it wouldn't make sense for me to do something like that.

How about this, show me one video of Ike where he actually does things a pro would get hit by? It's not like I don't have Brawl and I've never touched Ike. I've been playing him since I got it and these are my observations. Tell me why he's NOT punishable with 95% of his moves. Otherwise you're not really contributing.

 

[Sago]

i agree i think ike is a great character right now because no one knows whats going but later on i feel hes gona fall around where ganon did in melee, hes definatley going to develope into a character of patients and yes i have seen some OUTSTANDING ike combos

 

[Falconv1.0]

The words "Lord" and "Knight" come to mind...and if you dont know who that is, you really shouldn't be questioning what can be used in competitive play. Ike can be aggressive, he can be defensive, he has no problems in close quarters, it's just those **** projectiles. Still, he's a very good character. Trust me. Even Inui changed his mind about him...well, it seems like he did, I haven't seen him come out and explicitly take back what he said.

 

[VersatileBJN]

It seems to me thus far that Ike is a good character. With range and unmatched power, his unsafe moves become safer if spaced properly(fair particularly).

M2K says he believe Ike will be high tier, but who knows.

In my opinion you are basing your opinions off a game that required speed like Melee. This game is slower and more methodical, so a character like Ike should be able to compete with proper spacing and reaction time.

I disagree with Falconv 1.0 in that e says Ike can be played Aggressive. I don't see it.

Henretique, who are you though? Do you have any videos or tourney experience with Brawl? Not trying to talk mess, just wondering.

Those videos of Azen playing on youtube are very outdated if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

 

[Heretique]

Like I said. It really doesn't matter whether Azen is good or not, show me ANY good Ike player and I'll be surprised.

I'm not saying these things because of speed, I'm saying it because of the shield system. A quick side step or perfect shield and you can just run up and punish Ike for using his fAir. I agree, Ike doesn't seem to be possible to be played aggressively, but how can one play defensively with Ike if your opponent has projectiles?

 

[Val]

Ike is entirely too slow, has terrible recovery, and if he misses one hit he is left wide open. Any half-skilled person playing a quick character will be able to mercilessly punish Ike and no amount of sheer strength will help against a competitive player on a Fox or Marth. So ultimately I'd be willing to admit he is a good character, just one that would get torn to shreds in competitive play.

That being said, Ike is fun. I suspect he'll be one of my most played characters in casual play, and I'll pick someone else for competitive play. Olimar is currently who I'm planning on adopting for that role, though Toon Link and Pit are also intriguing me. (If all else fails I'll go back to Fox.)

 

[sesshomaru]

i see ike bein like melee marth. everyone thought marth was just eh... til ken showed up. it'll just take someone with wicked mind games to see it in him. ikes killing power is unbelievable, u'll hit someone and they could just die because of a bad DI.

now im no ike fanatic either (some of u scare the bujesus out of me) but from a tactical standpoint, ikes only real problem is speed and this games heavy on the camping. the fast characters are easily killed, and the fear of being perfect shielded goes both ways. im guessing uve been trying to fight lvl 9s. dont worry, no human will perfect shield all 3 AAA hits like those cheating pricks. seriously like every time too >_<.

 

[Heretique]

i see ike bein like melee marth. everyone thought marth was just eh... til ken showed up. it'll just take someone with wicked mind games to see it in him. ikes killing power is unbelievable, u'll hit someone and they could just die because of a bad DI.

now im no ike fanatic either (some of u scare the bujesus out of me) but from a tactical standpoint, ikes only real problem is speed and this games heavy on the camping. the fast characters are easily killed, and the fear of being perfect shielded goes both ways. im guessing uve been trying to fight lvl 9s. dont worry, no human will perfect shield all 3 AAA hits like those cheating pricks. seriously like every time too >_<.

I don't really fight CPUs, my friends are far better but like you said, the only thing that Ike can perfect shield and attack out of is his A combo. Kinda pathetic.

 

[Gill]

The only doubts of Ike I have is being able to deal with Pits, Foxs, etc, they can camp Ike ruthlessly. Marth can dash attack and roll away, theres a lot of characters who can give Ike no chance at ever attacking. Ike is definitely capable of competitive gameplay. You have to know the character he's up against, and learn the opponent's tactics fast. As soon as their game becomes see-through, if you're decent with Ike, they're dead. When you get punished by Ike, its brutal.

 

[VersatileBJN]

The problem here is that right now you seem to be playing theory fighter. Not only do most of us not know who you are, but we have no knowledge of how you play or how you've played in tournaments.

You say you want to be wrong such, but did you reply to Radical's very good post on why he believes Ike will be good?

You are talking as if the person fighting game Ike will play a perfect match. This isn't going to happen no matter how good they are. Ike's ability to punish is unrivaled. His AAA combo ALONE does more damage than most smash attacks. Fair out of a shield is safe if spaced properly, and nair is safe is done the right way. The same goes for bair. All of his smash attacks have uses. You're delusional if you think his up smash at the very least can't be set up to hit in a competitive fight.

I think you need to come play us, or even Azen so we can see there's merit to what you are saying.

 

[Heretique]

The problem here is that right now you seem to be playing theory fighter. Not only do most of us not know who you are, but we have no knowledge of how you play or how you've played in tournaments.

You say you want to be wrong such, but did you reply to Radical's very good post on why he believes Ike will be good?

You are talking as if the person fighting game Ike will play a perfect match. This isn't going to happen no matter how good they are. Ike's ability to punish is unrivaled. His AAA combo ALONE does more damage than most smash attacks. Fair out of a shield is safe if spaced properly, and nair is safe is done the right way. The same goes for bair. All of his smash attacks have uses. You're delusional if you think his up smash at the very least can't be set up to hit in a competitive fight.

I think you need to come play us, or even Azen so we can see there's merit to what you are saying.

You know, it really doesn't matter who I am or how good I am, I'm proposing a possibility for you guys to discuss. If you're going to mention Azen again, maybe I should just mention Azen thinking Ike probably doesn't have a chance competitively either? Again, you can ask him yourself if you're so worked up about it.

And I don't feel the need to respond to Radical's post, because all it really says is "Ike has amazing moves, Sonic doesn't".