I feel like talking about Wofl's "KO issues"

[~ Gheb ~]

So all over the place - ESPECIALLY from Wofl players - I keep hearing about Wofl's KO issues. This has been bothering me for a while because it's simply not true. Just look at his better KO moves:

Dsmash: Hits harder than MK dsmash and hits only one frame later...it has good range and over-average KO power. It's range and little start-up lag make it very easy to hit with.

Fair: At midair it punishes airdodges and is very good OoS. It comes out fast and can be AC'd. Similar properties as dsmash actually but it's mainly used in the air

Utilt: OK, this one is arguable because it's super-situational but at least it has a quite long lasting hitbox to **** airdodges...nothing special but a decent filler KO move.

Usmash: Not often used as a KO move but at high % it's not bad. The second hit makes it a bit hard to DI and with DACUS and as an OoS options it's not overly hard to hit with. It's also relatively safe on shield.

Fsmash: Mostly seen as a punisher but like usmash the second hit sometimes screws up opponent's DI. If it's not completely stale it can still hit hard.

...

That's 5 KO moves, 2 of them particularily outstanding: Fair and dsmash. All of those except utilt are easy to use in a regular battle and commonly used among Wolf players. All of these moves are VERY easy to set-up as well: Dsmash, Fsmash and Fair are excellent OoS options and Fair, Utilt and Usmash **** airdodges. All of these moves can be comboes into from FF Nair although utilt probably lacks range.
Wolf might seem to have KO issues because he can't kill his opponent before 130% but that's not actually bad if you compare it to many other characters: Only Snake, Wario, DK, MK, Charizard, Ness, Luigi and ICs are flat out better and even some of those are debatable (DK, MK, Luigi and Ness). Most other characters have bigger issues or are IMO tied (Fox).

Few characters have such a selection of good KO moves. 4 KO moves and all of them have multiple ways to be "comboed" into? And most of them KO at decent % (130 - 140% is NOT bad in Brawl!). These moves come out fast and can thus be used to punish. They also have relatively good range. They can be charged to beat spotdodges/airdodges. And most of them can be used directly after nair.
Wolf's KO power is fine. If you want to know what KO issues are you can probably play many other characters but Wolf doesn't have any.

Discuss

 

[MidnightAsaph]

You forgot dair, it KOs so often, and is easy to use...


But really, bair doesn't kill? I kill with bair. I mean, I spam it, but I can still kill with it. Is that not a kill move?

I get the point though, and I agree. Wofl has a selection of KO moves, and those who think otherwise are misplacing KO problems with other problems (his tendency to be CGed/Comboed and gimped).

Btw, you win for the usage of woFl.

 

[rvkevin]

Wolf doesn't have a problem KO'ing. Usmash is so easy to land and its pretty easy to charge it with DACUS...

 

[KRDsonic]

I said this stuff before and people told me I was wrong...

Unless you're fighting a DK with extreme reactions, Wolf doesn't really have a problem killing, and even then all you have to do is use Bair to kill instead of Dsmash (DK can survive a fresh Dsmash at the edge at 170% if he DIs it up and Up B cancels it).

I've used so many characters before... One of the main reasons I like using Wolf is because I don't have to worry about my opponent living to about 200% at least one stock per match like I did with characters like Sheik, Peach, and an average of 150% or so when I'm D3.

 

[tedeth]

You know that part of usmash that seems to send people more horizontally? That is ****ing strong!

Catch someone trying to land with an airdodge and you can ko with this reasonably well.

 

[Ishiey]

Well, bair is definitely something that should be listed as a KO move, and probably the easiest to hit with. Usmash is also ridiculously easy to hit with, but you gotta watch out for people who have figured out how to DI out of the 2nd hit (it's harder if they're mobility is crap in the air). Tipper fsmash is ****. Fair is also surprisingly effective at times, although to truly appreciate it you need to get in a double jump fair. Dsmash is just a standard KO move, I've had people DI it like Ally DIs MK dsmashes (as in it doesn't kill anywhere near when you'd want it to). The main gripe I have about dsmash is that good players often expect it since it is your best (and often most practical) kill move, so they can DI it ridiculously well

Utilt. This move is so lol. Almost always fresh, and nobody expects it. Definitely a kill move, despite how rarely it'll be used.

 

[Palpi]

Wolf's pummel defeintely helps his B-air KO. Bair is a move that is obviously used a lot as wolf, so an absurdly fast pummel is ideal to keep probably his best move fresh and killworthy

 

[ArcPoint]

Dsmash: Hits harder than MK dsmash and hits only one frame later...it has good range and over-average KO power. It's range and little start-up lag make it very easy to hit with.

Objection! If I remember right, Wolf's Dsmash is 8 frames, MK's is 5. So off by a frame is incorrect. And what do you define as "good range"? Better than his jab? I think it has decent range at best. Compared to most of the moves in the game, a lot beats it in terms of range. Another factor in its relative difficulty to get off is the hitbox is really low, unlike a lot of other solid kill moves. Although, knockback is really good, but it's ease to get off...that's the department where Dsmash is lacking. You have to be relatively smart about it. Unless you can pick up on an airdodging into the ground habit, then you're set lol.

Fair: At midair it punishes airdodges and is very good OoS. It comes out fast and can be AC'd. Similar properties as dsmash actually but it's mainly used in the air

My Fair is always stale =/ I always use it for aerials and stuffz

Utilt: OK, this one is arguable because it's super-situational but at least it has a quite long lasting hitbox to **** airdodges...nothing special but a decent filler KO move.

While not a consistent kill move...it works haha.

Usmash: Not often used as a KO move but at high % it's not bad. The second hit makes it a bit hard to DI and with DACUS and as an OoS options it's not overly hard to hit with. It's also relatively safe on shield.

You have to be high percents....ALTHOUGh just the last hit (the one that sends them horizontal) is amazing. THat kills SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO goood.

Fsmash: Mostly seen as a punisher but like usmash the second hit sometimes screws up opponent's DI. If it's not completely stale it can still hit hard.

This is assuming they don't DI it, but if they do, it doesn't kill that well... If they don't then good job.

Wolf doesn't have a problem killing...but he does have a slight problem getting that move off, so just be smart about it.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wolf has some pretty good kill moves. I don't usually have too much trouble koing my opponent.

 

[Devil.]

Flash can be a kill move too, its fairly situational but ive used it to KO more times than u-tilt probably

 

[Goldenadept]

i dont know if bair should count since it'll be pretty stale by the time you want to kill, its still good, but a stale move doesnt kill all that well, specially against a DK who seems to be the hardest to kill really.
dsmash is awesome but once your opponent is around 90% they'll start being wary of it, same with fsmash, its rediculously easy to DI out of and you dont really want to miss. Fair is great and hits hard, uptilt is a good 130% + killer no one expects a wolf to uptilt like they would a snake, it comes out pretty fast too, a good surpriser

 

[KRDsonic]

i dont know if bair should count since it'll be pretty stale by the time you want to kill, its still good, but a stale move doesnt kill all that well, specially against a DK who seems to be the hardest to kill really.

Bair is a kill move, Wolf has ways of easily refreshing his moves. Also, Bair is one of the easiest ways to kill DK with Wolf. I play against a DK main every day so... yeah. It's one of the few moves Wolf has that DK can't Up B cancel that easily, and if you space it right you can hit him through his Up B when he's recovering, which will kill him.

 

[Anonano]

Really the big issue with Wolf is that most of his KO moves are also his damage racking/punishing moves. They get used, a lot.
But really, they STILL KO at less than 150% most of the time. That's not even counting the fact that these are Wolf's damage building moves. Like, Wolf will be hitting with these moves at 100%+. No opponent should be living past 150%, ever.

 

[-Mars-]

Fair and fsmash aren't excellent OoS options. Frame 10 moves don't punish anything unless your opponent has no clue on what shield pressure is.

 

[Goldenadept]

lol tell that to some of those snakes out there Anon XD they some stupid ability to defy death... but, yeah, wolf doesnt really have killing issues, its just killing them before they kill you, we have lots of options but some characters have better options yeah? i wonder how wolfs dsmash ranks up with all the others... someone should make a move tier list, putting our blaster on top of course XD and firewolf, i hear thats awesome

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Bair ***** high recovery at high percents. Waffle has good KO moves, play Marth. Stop complaining.

kthxbai

 

[Goldenadept]

rofl, marths moves are like whacking a wall with a piece of tinfoil, till you get a tipper in, that'll rock anyones world

 

[Apollo$]

rofl, marths moves are like whacking a wall with a piece of tinfoil, till you get a tipper in, that'll rock anyones world

Spam fair and f-smash until they die, hur

 

[Goldenadept]

fair is good but eventually they wise up to it and good luck getting that Fsmash in unless you lure them into it XD they'll eat marth alive if you miss

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

rofl, marths moves are like whacking a wall with a piece of tinfoil, till you get a tipper in, that'll rock anyones world

The tip of a piece of tinfoil wouldn't do more damage to a rock than the rest. Analogy fail.

Spam fair and f-smash until they die, hur

Your Fair is stale wtf.

fair is good but eventually they wise up to it and good luck getting that Fsmash in unless you lure them into it XD they'll eat marth alive if you miss

That's why Marth's KO moves suck and you should be happy you have Waffle's Dsmash.

 

[Apollo$]

When I play as Wolf I rarely use D-smash, I save it up until they are around 90 or 100%. They already catch onto it so I spam moar bair.

 

[Goldenadept]

dont underestimate tinfoil dude, and spamming in general is not a good idea XD wolf's dsmash is a gift from god, its good to save it though, wolf has great punishing options

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

When I play as Wolf I rarely use D-smash, I save it up until they are around 90 or 100%. They already catch onto it so I spam moar bair.

Exactly, but it's still reliable.

 

[SelfPossessed]

The following is the biased opinion of a Wolf noob who can't land KOs until well past 150%.

Dsmash

• POWER
  
  It has to hit near the edge of the stage to kill at decent percents. Against heavy characters (Snake in particular) that DI well, even that isn't enough.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  Wolf's optimal spacing/zone is not within Dsmash range. That means it's limited to either a punishing move, a jab cancel for those not familiar with it (they can interrupt it), or a shield poke (angle shield down and punish OoS).
  
  If Wolf actively tries for a Dsmash KO at the appropriate percents, a smart opponent will realize it and go for chip damage while keeping safe. Wolf can fight that with Bair, but that defeats the purpose of killing earlier with Dsmash.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  Dsmash kills early if the opponent allows it to. They have to leave themselves open near the edge of the stage when at kill percents for you to kill with it. You can't really force it like other characters can. Still, there are multiple situations to land this, so it isn't all bad.

Fair

• POWER
  
  Kill power is very low if they DI it. The only way it's going to kill at reasonable percents is if you land it high up in the air (bait and punish an airdodge). That or you land it offstage where DIing it to the sides could kill them earlier.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  Wolf's mobility is terrible. He can't follow opponents in the air if they do a B reversal. That makes it really freaking hard to land Fair where it would kill at reasonable percents. Fair is also laggy, so trying it offstage can get you gimped instead.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  Fair kills early if the opponent allows it to. They have to allow you close enough to juggle them AND actually fall for the juggle mixup. That or allow you to hit them far offstage without gimping you in return.

Utilt

• POWER
  
  Kill power is low UNLESS you sweetspot it at his foot.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  The sweetspot area is situational to land. Few opponents will leaves themselves vulnerable at that distance in the air. Your best shot is to land it when they are vulnerable on a platform, which is rare.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  Utilt kills early if the opponent allows it to. They have to majorly screw up in the air (early airdodge/aerial) or leave themselves open on a platform.

Usmash

• POWER
  
  Usmash only kills early if their shield the first hit, release too early, and get hit by the second part for an unexpected horizontal KO. Otherwise, DI makes this kill at high percents.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  It's SDIable. It's slow. It's therefore a punish move in that you hope the opponent can't SDI. That or you have to hope the opponent accidentally drops their shield too early.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  Usmash kills early if the opponent allows it to. They have to release shield early and get hit by the second part.

Fsmash

• POWER
  
  Less than Dsmash, not powerful at all. You have to land it close to the edge of the stage to have any chance of this killing early.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  It's slow, punishable, and SDIable if the hit with both parts. It's therefore a punish move.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  Fsmash kills early if the opponent allows it to. They have to leaves themselves open near the edge of the stage for you to kill with it.

Bair

• POWER
  
  Doesn't kill early at all. You have to land it close to the edge of the stage or offstage altogether to have any chance of this kill early. It's also probably too stale to kill early enough. Wolf's best refreshing moves (jab and grab) are punishing moves.
  
  
• LANDING IT
  
  Much easier than all the other previously listed moves. Great range, safe on shield, shield pokes, etc.
  
  
• END RESULT
  
  It...just won't kill early at all due to how much it was probably being used. Landing refreshing moves is very difficult if they keep themselves safe at kill percents.

 

[Goldenadept]

you could just lie to your opponent, tell them "hey i know you're looking out for my down smash, but really... no worries, i dont use it" they wont see it coming

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No one's that stupid. I don't know who you play.

That'd be like me picking MK and telling my opponent I don't use Nado, Dsmash, or SL.

 

[Goldenadept]

twas a joke sir, all in good humor, i dont know why anyone would listen to their opponent in the first place XD making light of it is fun though

 

[JCav]

i love SP's posts, their so good


but anyways im glad you made this gheb, i agree

 

[WeXzuZ]

So all over the place - ESPECIALLY from Wofl players - I keep hearing about Wofl's KO issues. This has been bothering me for a while because it's simply not true. Just look at his better KO moves:

Dsmash: Hits harder than MK dsmash and hits only one frame later...it has good range and over-average KO power. It's range and little start-up lag make it very easy to hit with.

Fair: At midair it punishes airdodges and is very good OoS. It comes out fast and can be AC'd. Similar properties as dsmash actually but it's mainly used in the air

Utilt: OK, this one is arguable because it's super-situational but at least it has a quite long lasting hitbox to **** airdodges...nothing special but a decent filler KO move.

Usmash: Not often used as a KO move but at high % it's not bad. The second hit makes it a bit hard to DI and with DACUS and as an OoS options it's not overly hard to hit with. It's also relatively safe on shield.

Fsmash: Mostly seen as a punisher but like usmash the second hit sometimes screws up opponent's DI. If it's not completely stale it can still hit hard.

BAir is a FAST move and kills pretty well when it is not spammed (which it usually is). Still a good killing move.

DAir is the spiking move. I don't know how hard it can be to hit with on a real player. But I have been able to hit with it online, giving me rather early kills. Can be used on a grounded opponent to Star KO at a higher percent.

FrontB my favorite way of killing :D Spikes when it sweetspots, optimal move against airborne edgeguarders. When it doesn't spike it will give horizontal knockback, both forwards and backwards. Backwards is the most epic IMO
Also a good surprise attack. Can hit a Bowser on the ground! Probably some more higher characters, don't remember.

In some cases, DThrow can become a critical throw out of the stage since you are thrown downwards, making it hard to recovery for certain characters.

I think the reason why people think he has issues, is because he was thought as one of the heavy/strong characters and thus will play him like that.

 

[Semifer]

Wolf's mobility is terrible. He can't follow opponents in the air if they do a B reversal. That makes it really freaking hard to land Fair where it would kill at reasonable percents. Fair is also laggy, so trying it offstage can get you gimped instead.

Wolf's mobility is not terrible, it's actually very good, but it doesn't seem to be so because of Wolf being a fast faller (which also has it's advantages at juggling und air chasing), but it's still ok.
And this in combination to his long ranged horizontal aerials makes it possible to chase in the air, even if your opponent uses B reversal.

 

[Dracospawn]

Wolf definatly has no prob K.Oing with his quick yet moderatly-strong-for-that-kind-of-quickness smash attacks.

 

[ArcPoint]

It's not the easiest thing in the world. You have to be really smart and selective about your Dsmash usage. Because that's realistically your only option. The majority of your kills are more than likely from Dsmash, while a small percentage will be from edgehogging/Fair/Fsmash/Bair

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I'm actually going to start reserving dsmash completely. And use it on the side around the 100 and on point. Hopefully it gets me early kills. I'll just play a fiercer close game and abuse jabs and tilts. I'm hoping that rakes in some kills faster.

 

[Red Arremer]

You rack damage with DSmash? O_o
I always kept it fresh for KOing...

 

[-Jumpman-]

Save d-smash for the KOs and you get them early. Jump behind them, wait for them to do something or whatever. Saying d-smash isn't in Wolf's spacing zone is not an argument as you won't be in that zone constantly (or when you need the KO). Wolf racks damage easily and is quite good at getting KOs. Wolfs should be playing more efficiently and know their d-smash KO %s.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Dropin' in

I like utilizing d-smash just to get them off stage. From then on, I try my best to utilize Shine, b-air, scarring, wall jumps, d-air to give the opponent trouble. Most of the time it works. But tricks are tricks. The same edge technique will only work about twice.

 

[ArcPoint]

Getting them offstage and then KOing them is rather unreliable, especially with people that have such good recoveries.

 

[Uffe]

Wolf is a pain in the ***, but I never thought he had a problem KOing. I know his bair is really good for edge guarding and possibly spacing, though you have other options for spacing than that.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Actually, my kills are split almost evently between Bair, Fair, and dsmash. Maybe a more more for the bair n dsmash.
But I use dsmash quite a but....but usually it's refreshed to the point of killing potential by the time I need it.
IE I try not to use it once the person I'm going after is past 50-60%....
EDIT: Because by the time im in killing % range, itll be relatively refreshed, and when at lower %, saving the damage rackers until later to rack up ALL the damage at once n get in kill range could be faster than never using dsmash to help rack damage...

 

[Darxmarth23]

Getting them offstage and then KOing them is rather unreliable, especially with people that have such good recoveries.

I usually attempt to land only one hit

off stage damage is one of the #1 things that can get your opponent po'd