I feel bad about using falco...

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Falco is debatably second best and I HATE to think that a character I like SOOO much is the second best character. I try to make it a rule not to use the top 5 best characters but I'm too attached to falco to quit. Anyone feel the same or am I stupid for being sad about it?

 

[King Funk]

Falco is not a number on a list, he's a CHARACTER.

That argument of yours that you should not use one of the top 5 characters is total crap. You are completely free to use any character you want to and that's what the game's been designed for. What? Are you afraid that people might come up to you and laugh because you play with Falco?! Get this in your head: these guys are total n00bs. In my humble opinion, you should always follow the character that you like most, or whose style (gameplay) fits you the best. And if Falco was the one you enjoyed the most playing, then stick to Falco.

The first day I played Brawl, I didn't even know about smashboards, and I chose my favorite blue bird from the Star Fox series not just because I liked him in his games, but also because he was extremely cool to use. And then I discovered this forum, saw the tier list and thought: "Oh... nice... Falco is 5th...". I didn't feel bad at all about this, in fact, it was awesome, because he was my main, and no one influenced me in my decision to pick him.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Don't let someone make you feel bad for using a character for whatever reasons you choose. Whether you choose them because they are the best, or you genuinely like them does not matter. And **** the people who call you a tier ***** or call you cheap. They are just scrubs who don't want to lose.

 

[hdrevolution123]

I do agree. You shouldn't really rely on the 'tier list' to enhance your decision of choosing a good main. Falco is sufficiently fast and powerful as a character so he will help you to win matches but no one can determine whether he is the best or not. It's up to personal strategies and how YOU choose to play. Don't listen to all that top tier, low tier crap which only n00bs consider looking at. As far as I'm concerned some good Ganon player could be truly owning a good Falco player at this very moment in time now but just stick to your own strengths. If he's working well for you, then f*** keep him as your main. Personally I think he's awesome

 

[Teran]

Stop being such a tier *****. I wanted Meta Knight to be in the game since Melee. Now that he's considered by some as the broken dominant force, I still play him for fun (even though I'm not that great with him) because I like him. I've mained Falco since I unlocked him in Melee. He's always been Top Tier, and considered second best on the PAL Tier List for Melee. Did I care? No!
Play who you want, if he's Top Tier, then that's great. If he's Low Tier, that's great too, just don't use that to john. People don't like playing Top Tiers usually when they're inept and want to hide it by using the Low Tier john. Don't be one of them!

 

[hdrevolution123]

Stop being such a tier *****. I wanted Meta Knight to be in the game since Melee. Now that he's considered by some as the broken dominant force, I still play him for fun (even though I'm not that great with him) because I like him. I've mained Falco since I unlocked him in Melee. He's always been Top Tier, and considered second best on the PAL Tier List for Melee. Did I care? No!
Play who you want, if he's Top Tier, then that's great. If he's Low Tier, that's great too, just don't use that to john. People don't like playing Top Tiers usually when they're inept and want to hide it by using the Low Tier john. Don't be one of them!

Yep, I agree

 

[Darxmarth23]

Okay so

You like him.

He is pretty much the second best.

What is the problem?

 

[pure_awesome]

Falco is debatably second best and I HATE to think that a character I like SOOO much is the second best character.

Well technically... Falco is the third(second) best character at high levels of play.

In casual play, which I'm assuming you're at, Falco is mediocre, because he lacks spammable kill moves.

So even if you were going to feel bad about using a good character (which is odd), then you shouldn't.

 

[zamz]

Why would you let a tier list stop you from having fun? Just choose you who want, and enjoy it. If the character you choose is good, then it's good. If it's bad, then it's bad. So what? As long as the game is fun, it shouldn't matter. Thus is the joys of casual play.

Until you're going to tournaments to WIN, it shouldn't matter who you use as long as you enjoy the game. Now, if you ever decide to go a tournament, then quit caring about tier lists and play to WIN. Do anything in your capabilities to win the prize money. You SHOULD be choosing the character you're best with, and it's an added bonus that he's top tier.

 

[Dxkid]

Dude TR4Q just play the f-ing character n be happy

 

[8AngeL8]

You shouldn't feel bad at all because Falco is actually a really bad character. Everyone sees "OMG grabs and lazzzzzooorrrrzzz1!!!!1! Number three on tier list!"

In reality, everything that isn't a laser or grab is sub-par and it's hard the grab with him anyway.

 

[pure_awesome]

You shouldn't feel bad at all because Falco is actually a really bad character. Everyone sees "OMG grabs and lazzzzzooorrrrzzz1!!!!1! Number three on tier list!"

In reality, everything that isn't a laser or grab is sub-par and it's hard the grab with him anyway.

Dair and Bair? Jab cancel stuff? IAP? C'mon man, you're the patriarch. You're supposed to be all wise about the ways of Falco and stuff.

The only thing Falco sucks at is killing. Everything else he's very good, or mediocre(recovery).

 

[CRASHiC]

Hey man, I've been using Dededee since the game came out, and I come here to find him perhaps the second most hated character in the game but that doesn't stop me from using him. Play fun first, to win second, and for your rep third.

 

[8AngeL8]

Dair and Bair? Jab cancel stuff? IAP? C'mon man, you're the patriarch. You're supposed to be all wise about the ways of Falco and stuff.

The only thing Falco sucks at is killing. Everything else he's very good, or mediocre(recovery).

Haha, sorry, my opinion of Falco has gone WAY down lately. He's got tricks, for sure, but he's just not as good as everyone thinks, IMO.

I was starting to think it after talking to Melee1 and D4ba a lot, and what Sethlon said about him this past weekend just confirmed it for me.

 

[Vlade]

And what did they say?

 

[8AngeL8]

Basically, Falco has two things going for him. Lasers, and the chain grab. The lasers can be avoided/perfect shielded by a good player. People are learning to get out of Falco's grab setups, too. He doesn't have the best range up close, and the grabs only work until 40 or so percent anyway. With the advent of teching the spike, it removes a lot of the danger and it becomes damage instead of the stock. Still dangerous and it's a lot of damage, but not catastrophic.

What with Falco's trouble killing, there are a lot of characters who can eat the chain grab damage and still be closer to killing Falco than he is to killing them.

He's got a strong ground game when he's right up close, but lacks range and will lose on the ground to quite a few characters. His air game is decent, but not enough to get by on.

Myself and Melee1 both agree that he has bad matchups with MK, Snake, GW, ROB, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Fox, Marth, Wario, and Kirby. I haven't actually discussed these matchups with D4ba or Sethlon, but I bet they would agree with me on a lot of them. That's a lot of bad matchups against popular high tier characters.

 

[Vlade]

Wolf and fox? Weird. Even without the 0-death falco beats them, I thought.

Falco's bad match-ups from my experience are ROB, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Marth, MK (debatable) and G&W (He has the advantage but we previously overrated it).

 

[8AngeL8]

Yeah, we went over those two for quite a while, but ended up deciding they have a small advantage. Fox because of his speed and Wolf because of the bair/superior reflector.

Far be it from me to tell people not to play him, though. People should use characters they love no matter how good they are. Hell, I just started picking up Ganondorf for fun.

 

[pure_awesome]

Well, I'm not going to go nuts with this since it doesn't seem like the place and there's so many variables, but I would like to point out that Falco's Dair and Bair both beat Wolf's Bair. Yes, really.

No way, no way, no way does Wolf beat Falco. The rest, like I said, too many variables, so I won't go into them.

Just don't forget that on players who know how to tech the spike, you can just fake the spike. They fair, you're behind them ready to follow up with a Bair stagespike, Dair edgehog, etc. Not as effective, but you're still in control.

 

[Denzi]

Wolf and fox? Weird. Even without the 0-death falco beats them, I thought.

Falco's bad match-ups from my experience are ROB, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Marth, MK (debatable) and G&W (He has the advantage but we previously overrated it).

Taking into consideration the fact that he's MK, I'd say we have a pretty good matchup with him

Fox/Wolf definately don't beat us. CG spike. I've come to find that teching the spike is one of those "easier said than done" sort of things, and I still have yet to see it used in an actual match. (and you can just fake the spike)

 

[8AngeL8]

Teching the spike is super easy, I can do it every single time. I can upload a vid of me getting grabbed on every stock by a Falco, and teching all three times. As for the fakeout, you just need fast reaction time. You can hear the startup of the attack, and still have time to smash the stick. If you don't hear it, don't Fair.

 

[pure_awesome]

Teching the spike is super easy, I can do it every single time. I can upload a vid of me getting grabbed on every stock by a Falco, and teching all three times. As for the fakeout, you just need fast reaction time. You can hear the startup of the attack, and still have time to smash the stick. If you don't hear it, don't Fair.

What? No you can't. Dair is completely silent until the hitbox comes out. The first noise you hear is it hitting the opponent.

And it comes out on frame what, 4? 5? Nobody can react that fast. Considering you need to SDI right as he hits you, that's asking a little much.


Through it all, the fact remains that, without the guaranteed stock, the chaingrab puts Falco's opponent in a very, very touchy position. If he gets out of it, great, we're still up 45+ percent. If he doesn't, we're ready to do it all again. It's not the be-all and end-all that it was originally thought to be, but it's still an awesome tool.

 

[8AngeL8]

Just look at them, most players are easy to read as far as what's coming. You're right about the sound, though, I'm struggling to put into words exactly what goes through my head when I do it. It's a combination of looking at how the Falco is spacing his last grab, the other players movements, etc. I was wrong to say you should listen, I just said that because the sound comes out as I'm smash DIing.

45 damage is great, but that's barely more than 2 Ftilts from Snake, or a couple of Fsmashes from Fox. It's not hard or even unexpected that you can do 45 damage to Falco as punishment for trying to grab you. If you can't deal 45 damage to Falco before falling into a grab, it's your fault as a player, not Falco's strength.

 

[SuSa]

Basically, Falco has two things going for him. Lasers, and the chain grab. The lasers can be avoided/perfect shielded by a good player. People are learning to get out of Falco's grab setups, too. He doesn't have the best range up close, and the grabs only work until 40 or so percent anyway. With the advent of teching the spike, it removes a lot of the danger and it becomes damage instead of the stock. Still dangerous and it's a lot of damage, but not catastrophic.

What with Falco's trouble killing, there are a lot of characters who can eat the chain grab damage and still be closer to killing Falco than he is to killing them.

He's got a strong ground game when he's right up close, but lacks range and will lose on the ground to quite a few characters. His air game is decent, but not enough to get by on.

Myself and Melee1 both agree that he has bad matchups with MK, Snake, GW, ROB, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Fox, Marth, Wario, and Kirby. I haven't actually discussed these matchups with D4ba or Sethlon, but I bet they would agree with me on a lot of them. That's a lot of bad matchups against popular high tier characters.

I agree with 99% of this post.

The 1% I don't agree with is the fact my name is never mentioned, and he never visits the Snake boards anymore.

/me backing this up

:mewtwo:

 

[pure_awesome]

Just look at them, most players are easy to read as far as what's coming. You're right about the sound, though, I'm struggling to put into words exactly what goes through my head when I do it. It's a combination of looking at how the Falco is spacing his last grab, the other players movements, etc. I was wrong to say you should listen, I just said that because the sound comes out as I'm smash DIing.

45 damage is great, but that's barely more than 2 Ftilts from Snake, or a couple of Fsmashes from Fox. It's not hard or even unexpected that you can do 45 damage to Falco as punishment for trying to grab you. If you can't deal 45 damage to Falco before falling into a grab, it's your fault as a player, not Falco's strength.

If a player is easy to read, it's the player's fault. It shouldn't have any impact on Falco as a character.

But for sure about the rest. But Falco shouldn't be actively seeking the grab all the time, either. So it's a good balance.

I agree with 99% of this post.

The 1% I don't agree with is the fact my name is never mentioned, and he never visits the Snake boards anymore.

/me backing this up

:mewtwo:

Really? Even the Wolf > Falco part?

...really?

 

[SuSa]

If a player is easy to read, it's the player's fault. It shouldn't have any impact on Falco as a character.

But for sure about the rest. But Falco shouldn't be actively seeking the grab all the time, either. So it's a good balance.

Really? Even the Wolf > Falco part?

...really?

Yea, really....

 

[Vlade]

Wolf doesn't have very much at all against Falco. Apparently bair is so godly that it swings the match-up into wolf's favour. But that is not the case. I think pure_awesome has already explained that falco's bair and dair beat it out. Falco also has a better approach than wolf, + the chaingrab of course. I just don't see many positives in this match-up for wolf compared to falco.

 

[pure_awesome]

Please explain. (Seriously, I'm not being a jerk.)

I take full responsibility for you reviving the thread.

I'd like to remind you beforehand that Wolf's Bair is beat by both Falco's Dair and Bair. (Which Vlade ninja'd me in saying.) And Wolf's Laser can't effectively force Falco into Firebird as originally thought.

Plus, we've got LASERS.

 

[SuSa]

Reflector invincibility frames can be abused, considering your most useful kill moves must be spaced to where you get hit by the reflector easily.

Bair's hitbox is a bit more disjointed then both Falco's dair and bair, are you sure your aerials beat his with perfect spacing? I would test, but currently have no one to test with.

You have laser and CG. Wolf has dthrow tech-chase, gimping (I don't feel like going into detail, but we have an easier time gimping you then you do us), just as many reliable kill moves, better reflector (oh noes, where'd your laz0rs go?).

All Falco really has going for him is lasers and chaingrab. Once you get rid of the lasers, he has a chaingrab. Once you learn to tech that, he has a % advantage that you can overcome.

I'll even find the video showing how disjointed bair is, just as evidence of -its disjointed, aerials don't have priority. Just hurtboxes and hitboxes, the disjointed moves generally beat the non-disjointed moves. Priority is for ground moves only, and specials have... well... weird to explain priority situations. If I remember all of this correctly.

 

[pure_awesome]

I've tested the Bair extensively. It appears to me that Wolf's hurtbox extends behind him as well, but not as much. It also extends before his hitbox does. At Wolf's max Bair range, his hurtbox will extend to within the reach of Falco's Dair and Bair. This is important because Falco's Dair and Bair are both faster than Wolf's Bair. Hence, Falco will win out cleanly if he starts his move first or if they're started at the same time, or the moves will trade hits if Wolf starts his first but Falco has time to get his hitbox out.

Teching the chaingrab is an even bigger problem for Wolf than it is for most characters, since a wrong guess on a fake is big trouble. If Wolf guesses real and hits the c-stick, and Falco just SHADs, Wolf is very far below the stage due to Fair's long duration and his fall speed. Edgehog his terrible UpB, stock. It's 50/50 whether Wolf survives or not, and that's assuming he can tech the spike with 100% consistency.

I tested many gimp strats, and was thoroughly unimpressed. He does have an easier time gimping Falco than Falco does Wolf, but only barely. I can't see either character gimping the other very often at a high level of play outside of the chaingrab. A good Falco who knows the matchup will never have to use Firebird against Wolf, ever.

Also, Falco has IAP, which Wolf has a horrific time trying to punish, yet is inversely a great way to punish a reflector-happy Wolf. Not like his reflector would be a big deal anyway.

 

[Vlade]

Wolf can sit in his reflector all day, falco has a superior approach with multiple options while wolf has a not so great defense game. I've forgotten how many frames wolf is invincible in his reflector for, but I'm almost certain it's something that can't repeatedly be taken advantage of.

Dthrow techchase proves ineffective if the falco player is decent and is unpredictable. Sure, wolf will predict some techchases correctly throughout the match but it's not something he can rely on for damage. Wolf's bair is seriously overrated, it's actually quite easy to punish with IAP, circle-jumped laser, or a combination of both.

It is actually possible to space the chaingrab > spike so that it can't be teched, although that's slightly impractical.

Falco can deal with anything that wolf throws out, whereas wolf has difficulty.

 

[SuSa]

It's 5-6 frames, almost certain.

No such thing as true unpredictability, at least. Not for humans.

We analyze, we think, we reason. Unless you throw that all out the window, and just go willy-nilly with your options, you're predictable enough to be taken advantage of.

Also, I love being approached as Wolf, I feel more comfortable.

--Brawl rewards the defender more then the offender--

I say it's in Wolf's favor, 55:45 is still debatable. Haven't met a Falco thats made me reconsider the matchup as of yet.

 

[Vlade]

Like I said, wolf WILL predict some techchases correctly, but it's something he can't rely on.

Falco outcamps wolf too, so I guess he doesn't have to approach. But wolf has difficulty dealing with falco's approaches (other than lasers).

 

[pure_awesome]

Havokk man, I respect you, I really do. You usually post decently smart stuff.

But you've got to give us something here, man. You're saying Wolf has the advantage because he can abuse 5 frames of invincibility in his reflector, and because he can accurately guess how Falco will tech?

Come on. You're expecting the Wolf to play at a superhuman level while denying Falco the same luxury.

 

[Alzi]

Once Wolf touches Falco's bread.... It all comes down to falco's favour.

 

[SuSa]

Havokk man, I respect you, I really do. You usually post decently smart stuff.

But you've got to give us something here, man. You're saying Wolf has the advantage because he can abuse 5 frames of invincibility in his reflector, and because he can accurately guess how Falco will tech?

Come on. You're expecting the Wolf to play at a superhuman level while denying Falco the same luxury.

Falco thrives off of his laser and CG. Once you limit those, he becomes less then he is. Not bad, but not as good as normal (obviously)

60:40 Wolf, debatable at 55:45 Wolf


I may be biased, because Wolf is generally my Falco CP when I can't beat the Falco with my Snake, but Wolf just gives me an easier time overall, and Snake is 55:45 either favor, depending which board you ask...as a Snake main, I say 55:45, so if Wolf is easier, I would feel Wolf is 60:40. But if its easier to make it better then 55:45, is debatable.

Falco's kill moves are predictable, he has a hard time killing in general. Then put that same difficulty killing, and add abusing invincibility frames, and the fact that wolf's reflector stuns you enough for him to dsmash or get away from your kill move.

Wolf does have the advantage, albeit relatively small.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I have never lost to a Wolf in tournament losing Falco. I slap them silly. While Falco is not even close to third best, I think so at least (there are a number of characters who have more significant strengths than he does), he is still very good. And all his poor match-ups are close enough to still be winnable.

 

[CY]

i don't think falco deserves the third tier spot, but he def. belongs in the top 5. he ***** a lot of the cast pretty **** hard. seriously, i have some videos coming up and it will show you the power of laser camping and amazingness that falco is.

i don't agree with wario, ROB, fox, wolf, or snake being bad match ups for falco. i 2 stocked DMG, the best wario in TX and possibly the best in the nation in a past tournament match. ROB i can camp THE **** out of, just ask Sudai. seriously, if you have ROB troubles, camp the camper. he is too big to avoid them. fox and wolf are just meh, i've played good fox and wolfs and they give me no trouble really.

if falco didn't have his lasers, then i would agree he wouldn't be top tier. but laser camping plus the ISP to escape and rinse/repeat is way too **** good. add in his CG, his amazing jab, his amazing jab cancels, good aerials, he is too sexy. hell, even the characters he can't CG he can still dthrow to a follow up like dair/nair/dacus.

 

[pure_awesome]

Falco thrives off of his laser and CG. Once you limit those, he becomes less then he is. Not bad, but not as good as normal (obviously)

Falco's kill moves are predictable, he has a hard time killing in general. Then put that same difficulty killing, and add abusing invincibility frames, and the fact that wolf's reflector stuns you enough for him to dsmash or get away from your kill move.

Wolf does have the advantage, albeit relatively small.

Laser are barely limited. If Wolf actually wants to start using his Reflector, he has to throw it out fairly early due to the speed of Falco's projectile. Once Falco has one or two lasers reflected, he can bait the reflector and punish with IAP, which hits Wolf faster than he can drop the reflector and get his shield up. Alternate between lasers and IAP, and Wolf is in big trouble. Falco doesn't have a free reign with his Lasers like he normally does, but it's barely even worth mentioning. If Wolf wants to sit in his reflector, any Falco worth his bread is fine with that.

Same with the chaingrab. As I explained before, in theory Wolf has a 50/50 shot at surviving the chaingrab, and that's assuming he can tech it with 100% consistency. Limited? Yes. But still very dangerous.

Falco does have a hard time killing. But we've known that since day 1. Everyone knows that. It's never been an issue before.

Wolf has superior kill moves, but he's never going to have the opportunity to use them if he can't get Falco's damage up. And how is he going to get his damage up? Our long range game is way better, and Wolf's best approach option, Bair, is crazy predictable, giving us plenty of time to pick and choose from the multiple counters at our disposal. Fair approach doesn't fare any better, and boost smash approach is easily ftilted on reaction. Wolf has to go through hell and back just to get some percent on Falco, all the while getting peppered with lasers, IAP, ftilts, Bair/Dair counters, and your occasional 50/50 gamble at losing a stock.

60:40 Falco, and I could make a pretty strong case for 65:35.

 

[ZesuBen]

No, don't feel bad about using Falco. Why? Because regardless about tier position, this game is for fun. My friend used to complain about how good Kirby was back when Brawl came out, so I switched to G&W to shut him up. A few months pass, the SBR releases a tier list, he looks at it and just sighs. I look at it and see that G&W has placed higher than Kirby, I smiled at him, and said "Can I be Kirby again?"

I switched back down for a character I loved. I played him in Melee and played him very well for such a low tier character (and a non-competitive player), always demolishing my friend's Peach. And let me tell you, if Kirby becomes a Metaknight counter and skyrockets to second or even first on the tier list, I'll still main Kirby.

It's not worth curving your interests to suit the environment you're in, which I've learned. After playing G&W for months, then seeing how quickly I not only revived my Kirby game, but how much I've improved upon it already, I realized that I'm a Kirby main. You're a Falco player, don't let a list take away one of your favorite characters.