I don't understand PMBR

[Viceversa96]

-Down B invincibility removed

................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I thought you guys weren't touching Fox or Falco. The invincibility makes a huge difference. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans myself included. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of P:M was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways) not nerf them. But this nerf is a bad idea.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You posted this twice? Really? C'mon man.

 

[Vashimus]

You'll get over it. Especially since those of us who play Brawl characters get used to character nerfs and changes all the time and still adjust accordingly.

Also, you can't intentionally make someone as good as Fox without making their playstyle silly and just as ridiculous.

 

[Beautiful Death]

wtf how does removing the invincibility do anything at all. You're typically hitting people with it because you're outspeeding them since you know 1 frame and all that not so much because you are invincible.

 

[Professor Pro]

I used to main Fox, then 1 frame of invincibility disappeared off my 1 frame move, and I always intentionally blocked 95% of moves thrown at me with this and now I'm upset.
I'm even going to change my Avatar, I can't stand to look at him anymore.

 

[Rikana]

I don't understand them either. Why would they want to mod a party game???

 

[Alex Night]

-Down B invincibility removed

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I thought you guys weren't touching Fox or Falco. The invincibility makes a huge difference. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans myself included. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of P:M was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways) not nerf them. But this nerf is a bad idea.

Fox is fine... He still has other tools to gimp, kill, and maneuver around his opponents.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Amazing veteran that didn't notice this change until it was written down in the changelog.

 

[Strong Badam]

Our motto for the past 4 years has been "Everything is subject to change." If small changes to Melee's Top Tier are determined to improve the overall balance and experience of Project M, we will do so. See: Sheik.

 

[JOE!]

Whenever you badmouth space animals, incredible butthurt ensues.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

-Down B invincibility removed

................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I thought you guys weren't touching Fox or Falco. The invincibility makes a huge difference. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans myself included. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of P:M was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways) not nerf them. But this nerf is a bad idea.

Stop.

 

[leelue]

Sheik really is an amazing counterargument. What started as merely a tweak to down throw with compensation in back throw became something much more.

 

[Viceversa96]

I don't even main Fox. He's my secondary. I've been testing and now a lot of Up b's go through the shine. Which makes it less of a comeback move.

Our motto for the past 4 years has been "Everything is subject to change." If small changes to Melee's Top Tier are determined to improve the overall balance and experience of Project M, we will do so. See: Sheik.

StrongBad why did you guys specifically change this though?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I don't even main Fox. He's my secondary. I've been testing and now a lot of Up b's go through the shine. Which makes it less of a comeback move.
StrongBad why did you guys specifically change this though?

Probably because the best characters in the game having an invincible defensive/offensive move is idiotic design. It's not the invincibility alone that makes them so strong, but on top of using it for a guaranteed setup and a gimping tool, having the ability to counter anything with this move is just ridiculous.

 

[Sartron]

You probably won't even notice the difference. 1 frame is 1/60 of a second, I doubt your eye can even react to that. A good shine spike is still a good shine spike.

 

[trash?]

every melee top tier should strive to be like P:M shiek. that right there's a nicely-rounded character

 

[Vashimus]

Only thing "nicely-rounded" about Sheik is her booty. Cuz she gahlike.

 

[Magus420]

I've been testing and now a lot of Up b's go through the shine. Which makes it less of a comeback move.

You're whiffing the shine if they are not even getting hit at all. The same would have happened with invincibility, as it only hit and was invincible on frame 1. The only times having/not having it is coming up in gameplay would be when you trade hits pretty much, in which case you're still getting the hit on them. In just about any other situation though it would not have been relevant.

 

[turtletank]

Seriously guys I thought the point of P:M was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways) not nerf them. But this nerf is a bad idea.

No matter how much you buffed the cast, shine would still be ridiculous. The move is instant, high priority and combo's into anything it hits. As Pwnz0rz said, adding invincibility to such a move is an idiotic design choice as it encourages you to spam your way out of any situation. The only difference now is that other characters have a fair shot at pressuring Fox/ Falco without worrying about an invincible combo-matic.

 

[StarshipGroove]

You wouldn't even noticed it if it wasn't for the changelist.

by the way did nobody notice that Fox's uair got a 2% damage and knockback buff from Melee?
Is it intentional or a hitbox priority coding error?

 

[Vashimus]

I used to main Fox, then 1 frame of invincibility disappeared off my 1 frame move, and I always intentionally blocked 95% of moves thrown at me with this and now I'm upset.
I'm even going to change my Avatar, I can't stand to look at him anymore.

Prof. Pro's new avatar.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You wouldn't even noticed it if it wasn't for the changelist.

by the way did nobody notice that Fox's uair got a 2% damage and knockback buff from Melee?
Is it intentional or a hitbox priority coding error?

A buff? No, Fox and Falco are borderline unplayable without that invincibility. C'mon, without it you have to dodge or hit people out of attacks. Without being able to blatantly ignore hitboxes occasionally, automatically land a blow in response and follow it up with an up-smash, up-throw into uair, or pillar shenanigans, they may as well not be in the game. Fox's speed and natural power just is not enough to carry the game on it's shoulders and Fox mains deserve having the only purely invincible move with no downside at all.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Idk man. Maybe the loss of invincibility doesn't make Fox and Falco totally unviable, but I notice the difference every time I use shine and it simply throws off my game completely.
Between this, the massive difference of one frame in some physics stuff or whatever and Fox's head being too big I'm afraid I simply cannot play Project M anymore.

 

[Scythe]

every melee top tier should strive to be like P:M shiek. that right there's a nicely-rounded character

yo sheik was top 3 before this patch

 

[AbstractLogic]

Maybe this change was an attempt to filter out people that should probably keep playing melee..

 

[DMG]

Idk man. Maybe the loss of invincibility doesn't make Fox and Falco totally unviable, but I notice the difference every time I use shine and it simply throws off my game completely.
Between this, the massive difference of one frame in some physics stuff or whatever and Fox's head being too big I'm afraid I simply cannot play Project M anymore.

Good read 10/10 I'm putting this on my fridge

 

[turtletank]

Maybe this change was an attempt to filter out people that should probably keep playing melee..

Nice use of abstract logic, abstractlogic.

 

[DMG]

^^^

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Woah, of all the moves you'd alter, you take invincibility off a one frame move that can be spammed indefinitely, and leads directly into one of the most notorious Smashes in the game.....................GET YO' **** TOGETHER PMBR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Between this, the massive difference of one frame in some physics stuff or whatever and Fox's head being too big I'm afraid I simply cannot play Project M anymore.

Maybe Melee Fox's head is too small. Did you ever think of that?

 

[Deleted member]

as a sheik player, i'll take her old backthrow back and in exchange you guy can remove shines from doing anything other than reflecting projectiles. win/win imo

 

[DMG]

AKA

Sheik is the best character in the game now

 

[Deleted member]

Who cares, Fox and Falco are lame anyways.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I can think of something that would piss them off more, what if we gave Fox his staff from Starfox Adventures and based his moveset around that game?

 

[Paradoxium]

Guaranteed you didn't even know this invincibility existed until you read that they removed it.

 

[himemiya]

Well its about time anyways.

 

[Meme]

I think now that Down B lost it's 1 frame invincibility people that miss/get-hit-out of a Shine gimp/multi-shine they'll be "Thanks, Obama PMBR..."

 

[Viceversa96]

Guaranteed you didn't even know this invincibility existed until you read that they removed it.

You wouldn't even noticed it if it wasn't for the changelist.

by the way did nobody notice that Fox's uair got a 2% damage and knockback buff from Melee?
Is it intentional or a hitbox priority coding error?

I have played Melee since 2001. I know the difference. 1 frame invincibility if timed right can go through almost every Up b but it takes precision. I hate it how people think Fox is unbeatable. He is nowhere near as broken as MK in Brawl.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

The big thing that I want to know is why Fox and Falco deserve to stay exactly like they were when characters like Sheik and Meta Knight do not?

 

[Viceversa96]

The big thing that I want to know is why Fox and Falco deserve to stay exactly like they were when characters like Sheik and Meta Knight do not?

I actually think the same thing for Sheik also. I didn't think the chain grab was that bad. They act like people walk straight into it which is not true. MK I can understand though because he was truly broken. He has his own ****ing tier SS.