"I don't care how strong you are. It's not strong enough!" Roy Match Up Thread

[Brim]

Since we're talking the Roy MUs, and I saw someone mention DK in the bad matchups, I found just how hard that can be for Roy at Revelations 2. You might even find my one match on stream later. So, advice for facing DK other than don't get grabbed?

 

[Taytertot]

samus is kinda of a solved character coming in from melee, and playing against her is almost everything to do with what you do to samus and almost nothing to do with how you play roy specifically, or any other character. step 1 is to get her into the air, step 2 is to never let her land. it seems facile but thats really it- its just hard to play out with nuance. usually you want to upthrow her first, although if the samus player is bad its also acceptable to dashdance around until she jumps. stay away from dtilt because samus has a godly crouch game and can true cc dtilt until the 70% range. its also acceptable to wd oos on something to grab her. samus dtilt ftilt dsmash fsmash are all open to wd oos into grab. if your timing is imperfect she can still jab you to interrupt your grab, but you can crouch grab her anyway. once you grab her or she jumps, stick to fairs and upairs to tack on damage. your focal point is to not let her back to the stage where she has all of her defensive options, anything else is secondary. when shes taken enough damage, flare blade her out of the air.

wow thanks umbreon, i'll try that next time i play a samus. That makes a lot of sense now that i think about it cause her aerials arent nearly as defensive.

 

[Taytertot]

Since we're talking the Roy MUs, and I saw someone mention DK in the bad matchups, I found just how hard that can be for Roy at Revelations 2. You might even find my one match on stream later. So, advice for facing DK other than don't get grabbed?

man i really dont know. to me DK seems like one of roys worst MUs if not the worst. I guess trying to play the poke game and stay really non-committal cause ftilt and well spaced dtilts cant be grabbed i believe. I think due to the brutality of DK's punishes on roy, we have to play much more defensively then in most MUs and really just lame it out with tippers until we get DK offstage or up in the air where we can wreck him. Even when we get him up in the air it seems that we really have to be mindful of when a combo cant be continued any longer and just go back to keeping stage control and laming it out with safe tipper options

 

[Brim]

man i really dont know. to me DK seems like one of roys worst MUs if not the worst. I guess trying to play the poke game and stay really non-committal cause ftilt and well spaced dtilts cant be grabbed i believe. I think due to the brutality of DK's punishes on roy, we have to play much more defensively then in most MUs and really just lame it out with tippers until we get DK offstage or up in the air where we can wreck him. Even when we get him up in the air it seems that we really have to be mindful of when a combo cant be continued any longer and just go back to keeping stage control and laming it out with safe tipper options

In regards to the defensive plays one of the first players I played at Revelations for some warmups said my Roy was actually defensive...
What you told me up there sort of reminds me how I sometimes play against Jiggles because I can't afford to try to go deep with combos on her.

 

[Smolder]

In regards to the defensive plays one of the first players I played at Revelations for some warmups said my Roy was actually defensive...
What you told me up there sort of reminds me how I sometimes play against Jiggles because I can't afford to try to go deep with combos on her.

Due to DK's punishment game, you have to play so non-committal it isn't funny. Look for tipper dtilts, and if he goes for a CC dtilt to answer your dtilt, aim your analog stick slightly in the direction he is crouching and shield. The slight angling will enter your IASA on the first frame, allowing you to shield as soon as possible. If you can get a grab, opt for up throw, because a DK above you should be a nearly dead (If not outright dead) DK. Play the MU kind of like Marth. Play around your DD and attempt to punish his laggier options. Do not go on a platform against a DK -- this is the worst possible position to be against him. If you can, actually take him to FD. Without being able to throw you onto platforms, you'll notice he will only be semi-deadly during a grab. If you do catch him off-guard with a dtilt and he doesn't CC it, make him pay dearly. If you aren't racking up massive amounts of percent off a dtilt, he is either getting perfect DI or you aren't choosing the right options. Abuse ledgedash a lot. DK doesn't really have the tools to deal with a ledgedash grab, and if he goes for a SH into an aerial to punish your grab, just ledgedash --> shield or ledgedash --> fsmash. Also, watch your spacing. Spacing is the most pivotal part of this MU, because one poorly-spaced aerial or dtilt can easily spell the end for one of your stocks.

As a final note: If you can combo into it, do a footstool off stage. Due to his weak vertical recovery, you can footstool him and basically get a free kill. It's an effective and very hilarious/disrespectful way to extend combos as well. Believe it or not, but dtilt --> footstool --> dair --> >>Insert aerial or utilt here<< is actually a potent combo on most characters like DK.

 

[Taytertot]

Does anyone else find kirby really annoying to fight? Im not sure id say that its a bad MU for roy by any means but i find it to be a tedious and frustrating one since kirby is so light that he can be hard to combo and he has less difficulty with roys edgeguarding game. we can still out poke him and kill him early but i find it very obnoxious.

 

[Smolder]

Does anyone else find kirby really annoying to fight? Im not sure id say that its a bad MU for roy by any means but i find it to be a tedious and frustrating one since kirby is so light that he can be hard to combo and he has less difficulty with roys edgeguarding game. we can still out poke him and kill him early but i find it very obnoxious.

Bout to get off lunch break, but fun fact:
You can do the Jiggs' One Shot Trick on Kirby on (I believe) the side platforms as well as the top platform of Yoshi's Story.
EDIT: This means that you can just do a Sethlon, fthrow, and if his DI is off, one shot him.

 

[Taytertot]

Bout to get off lunch break, but fun fact:
You can do the Jiggs' One Shot Trick on Kirby on (I believe) the side platforms as well as the top platform of Yoshi's Story.
EDIT: This means that you can just do a Sethlon, fthrow, and if his DI is off, one shot him.

huh. interesting. i'll keep that in mind. does it work at any percent?

 

[Smolder]

huh. interesting. i'll keep that in mind. does it work at any percent?

I believe it does. Roy's up-B trick doesn't really have knockback growth if I recall correctly, and even if it does, it's minuscule at best. His up-B trick scales off the weight or fall speed of the opponent and remains pretty consistent with that variable, meaning that if it doesn't kill at zero, it won't kill at one-hundred-and-fifty.

 

[Taytertot]

I believe it does. Roy's up-B trick doesn't really have knockback growth if I recall correctly, and even if it does, it's minuscule at best. His up-B trick scales off the weight or fall speed of the opponent and remains pretty consistent with that variable, meaning that if it doesn't kill at zero, it won't kill at one-hundred-and-fifty.

oh i see well that would certainly help against kirby, though im not sure id want to rely solely on that to win me the match.

On a separate note, how does everyone feel about the mewtwo MU? I definitely feel like it was in mew2s favor in 3.02 but with the nerf im not sure. I could see it being around even or maybe slightly in mew2s favor. im doubtful that roy has the advantage though.

 

[Smolder]

oh i see well that would certainly help against kirby, though im not sure id want to rely solely on that to win me the match.

On a separate note, how does everyone feel about the mewtwo MU? I definitely feel like it was in mew2s favor in 3.02 but with the nerf im not sure. I could see it being around even or maybe slightly in mew2s favor. im doubtful that roy has the advantage though.

Roy has such a gross advantage if you employ smart, read-oriented play.

 

[Taytertot]

Roy has such a gross advantage if you employ smart, read-oriented play.

how so?
I feel like mewtwos weight is a bit awkward for long combo strings and hes got good range on moves that would be able to contest with roy pushing his spacing if the mewtwo player is careful and defensive. roy may be able to CC mewtwos stuff at early percents but mewtwo could rely on defensive use of nair and shadow ball in order to get roy out of that CC range relatively safely. mewtwos also get pretty good tools for comboing roy. I do agree that if the mewtwo player tries to use things like aggressive teleport approaches its pretty easy to blow that up with good timing and smart reads but if the mewtwo player is equally smart and realizes the danger of playing really close range vs roy wouldnt it be a more equal game?

 

[Smolder]

how so?
I feel like mewtwos weight is a bit awkward for long combo strings and hes got good range on moves that would be able to contest with roy pushing his spacing if the mewtwo player is careful and defensive. roy may be able to CC mewtwos stuff at early percents but mewtwo could rely on defensive use of nair and shadow ball in order to get roy out of that CC range relatively safely. mewtwos also get pretty good tools for comboing roy. I do agree that if the mewtwo player tries to use things like aggressive teleport approaches its pretty easy to blow that up with good timing and smart reads but if the mewtwo player is equally smart and realizes the danger of playing really close range vs roy wouldnt it be a more equal game?

Sorry. Completely forgot to reply to this. haha
So Mewtwo is a very gimmicky character that depends heavily on the other player not knowing his gimmicks.
How Roys beat Mewtwo is by learning two of his gimmicks.
A.) His teleport.
B.) His combo-breaker(s).
First off, you have his teleport. This may not seem like as much of a powerful tool when compared to 3.02, but let's take a closer look...
His teleport can be used to obtain a perfect sweet spot when absolutely parallel to the ledge. His teleport autocancels when landing from the air. His teleport gives him a decent approach (which can make a decent crossup if he knows his spacing). His teleport also allows him to steal the ledge from Roy during the hang-time of his up-B. And a smart Mewtwo will take advantage of all these different qualities to combat a Roy.

I will start with the first quality. This is a simple fix. Just grab the ledge and force him onto the stage and if you can catch him before his autocancel landing, you can obtain a free punish. Your go-to punish would probably be a ledgedash --> grab --> dthrow --> flareblade. As a Mewtwo, it is really difficult to avoid this punish unless he gets a perfect autocancel teleport to roll away.

The teleport's second quality is a little bit harder to deal with due to the mechanics of an autocancel. If done correctly, it should be (nearly) impossible to punish him. However, most Mewtwo's aim for the autocancel from the ledge. Now that you know this piece of knowledge, you can stand a few feet from the ledge in what I like to call the "sweet spot" when fighting the Mewtwo. Why do I call this the sweet spot? Well it's simple. This is the spot where you can punish literally anything the Mewtwo does. If he decides to autocancel, watch for his ledge release, then do a pivot grab to catch him out of his teleport or, if he doesn't do it perfectly, you can even get an fsmash. If he decides to roll, you can either go for a regrab into dthrow flareblade or just fsmash him. If he decides to neutral getup, just ftilt him . If he goes for the jump, just jump up and flareblade him. And due to your spacing, you shouldn't have to worry about a getup attack. This position is where you'll make most of your profit. You want him to be in this position so that you can get maximum option coverage.

The third quality is something you have to feel out for yourself. All Mewtwos prefer to tele-approach at different times. Just play out the neutral until you get a good read on when he wants to tele-approach, then you have your choices from there. If he goes for maximum-range tele-approaches, just wait for his cue that gives his approach away (most players have a cue) and wavedash back fsmash. If he goes for the crossup tele, just shield it --> wavedash OoS --> grab --> profit.

The fourth and final quality is oddly under-utilized in the Roy MU. I have no idea why, but I have only met one Mewtwo who has done that against me. This is the hardest of the teleport qualities to deal with. No matter what, if the Mewtwo knows this, you WILL have to land on stage and the Mewtwo WILL (most likely) confirm a punish. Most Mewtwos will do a neutral getup --> grab --> bthrow to reset the situation. In this situation, you want to do an up-B that will land you as close to the ledge as possible. This will force the Mewtwo to do a pivot grab out of neutral getup. If you're lucky, this will mess him up, and if you're even luckier, you will edge cancel the up-B and get sweet, sweet vengeance with an early up-B for 15-20% on the Mewtwo.

Second off, you need to learn how to deal with his combo-breaker(s).
The reason why I have a parenthesized 's' is because his fair isn't a true combo-breaker unless you're really messing up your timing. This is such an insanely simple fix. Know. Your. Timings. If you know that he's about to come out of hitstun and you're near him, 10-to-1 he's going to either do a nair or fair. Now that you know this, you can opt to drop the combo early to bait out the combo-breaker for an even longer combo or you can obtain a hard punish with an fsmash. If he's too high to fsmash, scare him with an empty jump --> fast fall to bait the breaker --> uair or do whatever aerial you want depending on the situation. Once he does his combo-breaker, he will be susceptible to a large variety of punishes, which are all ugly because Roy has a great combo game as well as both an aerial and grounded kill move. Small edit: You can tell a Mewtwo wants the combo-breaker when he DI's in. If he's DI'ing in, you can shield the breaker and confirm a grab or you can just fsmash him for DI'ing in which will kill him at earlier percents because, well, he's DI'ing in.

Now I guess I should take some time to answer your questions after all that rambling.
When it comes to Mewtwo's weight, he is actually amazing for early-percent combos. Your fthrow, if DI'd incorrectly, can lead to either a regrab, fair, or nair. Your dtilt leads to some decent uairs and if you pressure him hard enough in the air, you can force a teleport. If he tries to DI your uair down for a combo-breaker, just L-cancel it and do an utilt. both fairs and uairs are pretty good tools for comboing Mewtwo. Essentially, he's just a whole difference combo-weight to learn for you. Anyone can be an awkward combo-weight if you don't get enough MU experience against them. I used to believe Luigi was hard to combo until I learned to bait out his nair. Now it's pretty easy for me to combo him.

Also, what moves of his do you think can contest Roy's spacing? His bair is the only move I've had any difficulty with and that is truly easy to beat once you learn the timing of it. If you learn to wait-out the bair, you can actually do a shorthop --> instant fair for the punish which could lead into a small combo string. If you clarify further on this subject then I may be able to help you.

Nair should never be a problem for Roy unless the Roy is misspacing his approaches. litterally almost everything you do out-spaces Mewtwo's nair. But if the Mewtwo is really keen on doing defensive nairs, just do a short hop, into a fast-falled empty land just outside of his threat-zone and fsmash him. The short hop should trick him into thinking you're going for a reckless approach and the quick land fsmash should catch him on his punish attempt. If he knows this trick, then go for a tomahawk. If he knows about the tomahawk, he will either go for a spot dodge or roll. wait out the spot dodge and fsmash or if he rolls just learn which way he prefers to roll and chase it next time. Otherwise, just be smart with your spacing and you shouldn't get nair'd.

If a Mewtwo is spamming shadowballs, practice your powershielding. No. I'm not joking. I have a Mewtwo friend who rarely SB's me anymore. He doesn't like the fact that I have an 80% success rate on his SB's. SB is so easy to powershield once you get used to it. If you can't seem to pull this off though, treat his SB's like Sheik needles. Just shield one, wavedash forward, shield the next one, wavedash again, and keep doing this until you're near his threat zone. He should be scared to throw a SB at this point because he doesn't want to get punished. Most better players will try their hardest to be constantly within this threat zone to avoid SB spam.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I used to play a Mewtwo constantly and he hates that MU now. haha
Sorry if there are any grammar or spelling issues. It's a little late here and I don't feel like dealing with the corrections.
EDIT: I guess you can't really consider B. a gimmick, but meh. I like to consider combo-breakers gimmicky because I'm a scumbag that relies on combos. =P

 

[Taytertot]

Sorry. Completely forgot to reply to this. haha
So Mewtwo is a very gimmicky character that depends heavily on the other player not knowing his gimmicks.
How Roys beat Mewtwo is by learning two of his gimmicks.
A.) His teleport.
B.) His combo-breaker(s).
First off, you have his teleport. This may not seem like as much of a powerful tool when compared to 3.02, but let's take a closer look...
His teleport can be used to obtain a perfect sweet spot when absolutely parallel to the ledge. His teleport autocancels when landing in the air. His teleport gives him a decent approach (which can make a decent crossup if he knows his spacing). His teleport also allows him to steal the ledge from Roy during the hang-time of his up-B. And a smart Mewtwo will take advantage of all these different qualities to combat a Roy.

I will start with the first quality. This is a simple fix. Just grab the ledge and force him onto the stage and if you can catch him before his autocancel landing, you can obtain a free punish. Your go-to punish would probably be a ledgedash --> grab --> dthrow --> flareblade. As a Mewtwo, it is really difficult to avoid this punish unless he gets a perfect autocancel teleport to roll away.

The teleport's second quality is a little bit harder to deal with due to the mechanics of an autocancel. If done correctly, it should be (nearly) impossible to punish him. However, most Mewtwo's aim for the autocancel from the ledge. Now that you know this piece of knowledge, you can stand a few feet from the ledge in what I like to call the "sweet spot" when fighting the Mewtwo. Why do I call this the sweet spot? Well it's simple. This is the spot where you can punish literally anything the Mewtwo does. If he decides to autocancel, watch for his ledge release, then do a pivot grab to catch him out of his teleport or, if he doesn't do it perfectly, you can even get an fsmash. If he decides to roll, you can either go for a regrab into dthrow flareblade or just fsmash him. If he decides to neutral getup, just ftilt him . If he goes for the jump, just jump up and flareblade him. And due to your spacing, you shouldn't have to worry about a getup attack. This position is where you'll make most of your profit. You want him to be in this position so that you can get maximum option coverage.

The third quality is something you have to feel out for yourself. All Mewtwos prefer to tele-approach at different times. Just play out the neutral until you get a good read on when he wants to tele-approach, then you have your choices from there. If he goes for maximum-range tele-approaches, just wait for his cue that gives his approach away (most players have a cue) and wavedash back fsmash. If he goes for the crossup tele, just shield it --> wavedash OoS --> grab --> profit.

The fourth and final quality is oddly under-utilized in the Roy MU. I have no idea why, but I have only met one Mewtwo who has done that against me. This is the hardest of the teleport qualities to deal with. No matter what, if the Mewtwo knows this, you WILL have to land on stage and the Mewtwo WILL (most likely) confirm a punish. Most Mewtwos will do a neutral getup --> grab --> bthrow to reset the situation. In this situation, you want to do an up-B that will land you as close to the ledge as possible. This will force the Mewtwo to do a pivot grab out of neutral getup. If you're lucky, this will mess him up, and if you're even luckier, you will edge cancel the up-B and get sweet, sweet vengeance with an early up-B for 15-20% on the Mewtwo.

Second off, you need to learn how to deal with his combo-breaker(s).
The reason why I have a parenthesized 's' is because his fair isn't a true combo-breaker unless you're really messing up your timing. This is such an insanely simple fix. Know. Your. Timings. If you know that he's about to come out of hitstun and you're near him, 10-to-1 he's going to either do a nair or fair. Now that you know this, you can opt to either drop the combo early to bait out the combo-breaker for an even longer combo or a hard punish with an fsmash. If he's two high to fsmash, scare him with an empty jump --> fast fall to bait the breaker --> uair or do whatever aerial you want depending on the situation. Once he does his combo-breaker, he will be susceptible to a large variety of punishes, which are all ugly because Roy has a great combo game as well as both an aerial and grounded kill move.

Now I guess I should take some time to answer your questions after all that rambling.
When it comes to Mewtwo's weight, he is actually amazing for early-percent combos. Your fthrow, if DI'd incorrectly, can lead to either a regrab, fair, or nair. Your dtilt leads to some decent uairs and if you pressure him hard enough in the air, you can force a teleport. If he tries to DI your uair down for a combo-breaker, just L-cancel it and do an utilt. both fairs and uairs are pretty good tools for comboing Mewtwo. Essentially, he's just a whole difference combo-weight to learn for you. Anyone can be an awkward combo-weight if you don't get enough MU experience against him. I used to believe Luigi was hard to combo until I learned to bait out his nair. Now it's pretty easy for me to combo him.

Also, what moves of his do you think can contest Roy's spacing? His bair is the only move I've had any difficulty with and that is truly easy to beat once you learn the timing of it. If you learn to wait-out the bair, you can actually to a shorthop --> instant fair for the punish which could lead into a small combo string. If you clarify further on this subject then I may be able to help you.

Nair should never be a problem for Roy unless the Roy is misspacing his approaches. litterally almost everything you do out-spaces Mewtwo's nair. But if the Mewtwo is really keen on doing defensive nairs, just do a short hop, into a fast-falled empty land just outside of his threat-zone and fsmash him. The short hop should trick him into thinking you're going for a reckless approach and the quick land fsmash should catch him on his punish attempt. If he knows this trick, then go for a tomahawk. If he knows about this tomahawk, he will either go for a spot dodge or roll. wait out the spot dodge and fsmash or if he rolls just learn which way he prefers to roll and chase it next time. Otherwise, just be smart with your spacing and you shouldn't get nair'd.

If a Mewtwo is spamming shadowballs, practice your powershielding. No. I'm not joking. I have a Mewtwo friend who rarely SB's me anymore. He doesn't like the fact that I have an 80% success rate on his SB's. SB is so easy to powershield once you get used to it. If you can't seem to pull this off though, treat his SB's like Sheik needles. Just shield one, wavedash forward, shield the next one, wavedash again, and keep doing this until you're near his threat zone. He should be scared to throw a SB at this point because he doesn't want to get punished. Most better players will try their hardest to be constantly within this threat zone to avoid SB spam.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I used to play a Mewtwo constantly and he hates that MU now. haha
Sorry if there are any grammar or spelling issues. It's a little late here and I don't feel like dealing with the corrections.
EDIT: I guess you can't really consider B. a gimmick, but meh. I like to consider combo-breakers gimmicky because I'm a scumbag that relies on combos. =P

thanks for the info this will definitely help a lot.
as far as mewtwo being able to challenge roys spacing, cant mewtwos dtilt reach about as far as roy's? I feel like mewtwo's ftilt and dtilt will definitely beat any of roy's sweetspot ranges on the ground which means we'd have to rely on tipper stuff which doesnt combo that well on a floaty. as far as aerials go i guess its mostly bair though i wouldnt be completely surprised if mewtwos uair (or utilt for that matter) had the same range as roy's dair. i guess all in all it just feels like roy would have to use a lot of tippers to outpoke mewtwo which isnt going to lead to many strings after low percents. maybe im wrong though.

 

[Smolder]

thanks for the info this will definitely help a lot.
as far as mewtwo being able to challenge roys spacing, cant mewtwos dtilt reach about as far as roy's? I feel like mewtwo's ftilt and dtilt will definitely beat any of roy's sweetspot ranges on the ground which means we'd have to rely on tipper stuff which doesnt combo that well on a floaty. as far as aerials go i guess its mostly bair though i wouldnt be completely surprised if mewtwos uair (or utilt for that matter) had the same range as roy's dair. i guess all in all it just feels like roy would have to use a lot of tippers to outpoke mewtwo which isnt going to lead to many strings after low percents. maybe im wrong though.

When it comes to dealing with Mewtwo's dtilt, you have two choices. The first choice includes running up to him and crouching which will CC his dtilt, allowing you to get a sweet spot dtilt. (Sour spot dtilt is still good for combos because it has similar KB) The other choice includes just running up and shielding. The second option may seem pretty jank, but if the Mewtwo is so used to swatting you away with dtilt and ftilt, then you should be able to run up, shield one of them, and grab him. Also, if I recall correctly, you can nair through both his dtilt and ftilt. Don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure you can. The only problem with this is if you don't have the wherewithal to crouch during your dash to stop your forward momentum before nairing, you could end up jumping straight into his shields.

Cool thing about Mewtwo's utilt (bad thing for Mewtwo) is that even though it has disjoint, it also has a small cluster of hurtboxes just under the tip. This means that if he tries to utilt your dair, the best he will get is a trade, which is still good for you because your dair knocks him far up, whereas his utilt barely sends you anywhere.

On a side note: Roy's tippers actually aren't that bad for comboing. His tipper dtilt is actually pretty good when dealing with floaties and his tipper fair (unless they're at higher percents) can still lead into a possible grab or pressure situation, forcing them to commit to an option which you can then punish with any manner of moves.

 

[Smolder]

oh i see well that would certainly help against kirby, though im not sure id want to rely solely on that to win me the match.

On a separate note, how does everyone feel about the mewtwo MU? I definitely feel like it was in mew2s favor in 3.02 but with the nerf im not sure. I could see it being around even or maybe slightly in mew2s favor. im doubtful that roy has the advantage though.

Don't know if you still need help with this MU, but you can always watch this set of me vs a Mewtwo. It may not be perfect because I'm still not the best Roy, but I think it may help you if you observe this set and see what I did right, especially in edgeguard situations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6rR28MgbOI

 

[Brim]

I'm not sure if anyone's discussed this MU yet, but what about the Ike v. Roy matchup? I find this incredibly difficult for Roy, because if he messes up once and gets hit or grabbed Ike has a next to free combo to death on Roy since Roy's hitstun in the air is so huge, and Ike can chase me off the stage for days, and topping off he hits like a tank doesn't exactly help on my side.
Granted these Ikes I've been playing are the best in my state...so that doesn't help.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

I'm not sure if anyone's discussed this MU yet, but what about the Ike v. Roy matchup? I find this incredibly difficult for Roy, because if he messes up once and gets hit or grabbed Ike has a next to free combo to death on Roy since Roy's hitstun in the air is so huge, and Ike can chase me off the stage for days, and topping off he hits like a tank doesn't exactly help on my side.
Granted these Ikes I've been playing are the best in my state...so that doesn't help.

This is also a matchup I find difficult for the reasons you mentioned also. In my own experience I have found that Ftilt and Nair are bread and butter in this matchup. These options can wall him out very well and punish QD approaches. A mid range QD can be interrupted with quick DD to DED. (If a are feeling ballsy a pivot Fsmash works quite well too). If you see him going for a pesky QD to Bair, upwards angle Ftilt can put that nonsense to bed quickly. Nair and Ftilt are great for interrupting Ike's rhythm in general because they help keep Roy just outside of Ike's range and can lead to a follow-up Dtilt or Fair or whatever combo starter you feel respectively.

Ike has a strong CC game and can be hard to combo at times due to his semi floaty qualities but once you figure out range, you should be okay. He is a sample of what I do

I play by brother quite often and he is an Ike Main. If I interrupt him with Ftilt and am placed just outside his range, he will :

(1) role away, reseting the neutral
(2) wave dash in, which I can punish with a quick jab, Dtilt or grab considering roy has an advantage in speed
(3) Ftilt, which I can punish with another Ftilt or DD to Dash attack
(4) short range QD which I can punish with Dtilt or DED
(5) Dash attack or DD to Dash attack, which I can punish with a shield grab to tech chase.
(6) SH aerial, which I can punish with shield grab or wave dash back to dash attack or wave dash back to grab

I always try to be mindful of the options available for both characters at any given time. Playing at a slightly slower pace and reactively helps me accomplish that. I just focus solely on evasion and positioning, that way once I create or find an opening, I kick it to high gear immediately and punish as much and as hard as possible. I try to use Roy's movement abilities to the max to make sure that I attack from a position of strength and not cause like you said, one mistake and Roy gets wrecked pretty hard.

I took a page from Sethlon's book for edge guarding. A properly spaced Flare Blade or SH Flare Blade or SH counter helps with Aether. As for QD, edge hog. If I get the drop on him, I'm going for that off stage nB.

As for recovery, try your absolute best to sweet-spot Up B every time cause if you, you will eat a soul-crushingly easy counter or Fsmash. If you can, tech that sucker! I'm still working on teching while recovering it but the few times I've done it, I felt like I won the game in that moment lol

I do find it difficult to DD effectively because of Ike's massive range. How do you find it? I need to practice more on using it to bait.

I'm sure the Ike's you play are leagues above what I face but I've read your post and you definitely have a plethora of Roy knowledge and experience, which has helped me greatly in many cases. I hope I've been able to help you out a bit.

 

[Brim]

This is also a matchup I find difficult for the reasons you mentioned also. In my own experience I have found that Ftilt and Nair are bread and butter in this matchup. These options can wall him out very well and punish QD approaches. A mid range QD can be interrupted with quick DD to DED. (If a are feeling ballsy a pivot Fsmash works quite well too). If you see him going for a pesky QD to Bair, upwards angle Ftilt can put that nonsense to bed quickly. Nair and Ftilt are great for interrupting Ike's rhythm in general because they help keep Roy just outside of Ike's range and can lead to a follow-up Dtilt or Fair or whatever combo starter you feel respectively.

Ike has a strong CC game and can be hard to combo at times due to his semi floaty qualities but once you figure out range, you should be okay. He is a sample of what I do

I play by brother quite often and he is an Ike Main. If I interrupt him with Ftilt and am placed just outside his range, he will :

(1) role away, reseting the neutral
(2) wave dash in, which I can punish with a quick jab, Dtilt or grab considering roy has an advantage in speed
(3) Ftilt, which I can punish with another Ftilt or DD to Dash attack
(4) short range QD which I can punish with Dtilt or DED
(5) Dash attack or DD to Dash attack, which I can punish with a shield grab to tech chase.
(6) SH aerial, which I can punish with shield grab or wave dash back to dash attack or wave dash back to grab

I always try to be mindful of the options available for both characters at any given time. Playing at a slightly slower pace and reactively helps me accomplish that. I just focus solely on evasion and positioning, that way once I create or find an opening, I kick it to high gear immediately and punish as much and as hard as possible. I try to use Roy's movement abilities to the max to make sure that I attack from a position of strength and not cause like you said, one mistake and Roy gets wrecked pretty hard.

I took a page from Sethlon's book for edge guarding. A properly spaced Flare Blade or SH Flare Blade or SH counter helps with Aether. As for QD, edge hog. If I get the drop on him, I'm going for that off stage nB.

As for recovery, try your absolute best to sweet-spot Up B every time cause if you, you will eat a soul-crushingly easy counter or Fsmash. If you can, tech that sucker! I'm still working on teching while recovering it but the few times I've done it, I felt like I won the game in that moment lol

I do find it difficult to DD effectively because of Ike's massive range. How do you find it? I need to practice more on using it to bait.

I'm sure the Ike's you play are leagues above what I face but I've read your post and you definitely have a plethora of Roy knowledge and experience, which has helped me greatly in many cases. I hope I've been able to help you out a bit.

Thanks for the bit of help, I'll try to throw more of this in later. But you're mentioning of having a sibling that actually enjoys Smash at a higher level is making me a bit envious...

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

Thanks for the bit of help, I'll try to throw more of this in later. But you're mentioning of having a sibling that actually enjoys Smash at a higher level is making me a bit envious...

Happy to help.
As for my brother, he is only semi-high level. He really doesn't practice much and I practice as much as possible so our skill gap is steadily widening. But if I'm not on my toes he can still win so it still helps with my training. I have WAYS to go before I'm can call myself a great player

 

[Taytertot]

I'm not sure if anyone's discussed this MU yet, but what about the Ike v. Roy matchup? I find this incredibly difficult for Roy, because if he messes up once and gets hit or grabbed Ike has a next to free combo to death on Roy since Roy's hitstun in the air is so huge, and Ike can chase me off the stage for days, and topping off he hits like a tank doesn't exactly help on my side.
Granted these Ikes I've been playing are the best in my state...so that doesn't help.

although i dont play this MU a whole lot i gnerally feel that its in roys favor. Ike has to 2 main weaknesses that im aware of. the first being that his neutral game is lackluster. He doesnt have safe approach options if you prepare yourself to shield when he comes in because all he can do is read your shield and try to QD jump cancel grab so wait for a commitment first. because of that option i generally like to take ike to a stage with platforms and let him approach first. after he commits i try to punish that with dair, dtilt, and fair. uair works too but i feel that using fair to push ike to a corner is more helpful because of ike's second weakness. Ike has very poor defensive options. he doesnt have anything good OoS except grab but roys sword allows him to pressure ike's shield farther then ike can grab from especially if you can get behind him while hes shielding since he doesnt have movement options OoS. ikes WD sucks so thats not a very good OoS option for him and his aerials are to slow to use defensively OoS so just keep up safe pressure and if you have stage advantage just poke him out. Just make sure to use fast moves so that your not overcommitting because ikes punish game is great. At far range ike's QD has a lot of options which is why i think shield as soon as you see him release sideB (unless you think he'll grab, which jab or ftilt should beat) is generally a good option instead of trying to confuse him with DDing because his attacks can cover a large enough range that DDing at a distance may not avoid the attack. Once ike is closer to you DDing is much better because ike's QD game becomes more committal (assuming your staying just out of his ftilt range) allowing you to throw out a quick attack to keep QD from being used effectively. Dont let him get away from you because you want to be spacial pressuring him and playing reactively so that ike has to rely on his poor defense.

Sorry if my advice is kinda jumbled up or confusing. let me know if there was anything that wasnt clear or if theres something that didnt mention/touch on. hope this helps.

 

[kevlar14]

Any advice on the Sonic MU? I regularly play with a friend who's Sonic frustrates me to no end. He always goes in with side-B or down-B and I don't know how to punish his approaches when he goes right through me. If I try to CC he just keeps comboing me until I'm off the stage, and if I shield he grabs and tech chase until I'm off the stage.

 

[Taytertot]

Any advice on the Sonic MU? I regularly play with a friend who's Sonic frustrates me to no end. He always goes in with side-B or down-B and I don't know how to punish his approaches when he goes right through me. If I try to CC he just keeps comboing me until I'm off the stage, and if I shield he grabs and tech chase until I'm off the stage.

i find sonic frustrating too. the way ive learned to deal with sonic is to try to get in his face and force him to retreat with either tipper nair or tipper fair while close to the ground. The reasoning being that sonic does best when hes got a lot of space to work with. thats when he can charge up his sideB or downB and just fake out when to go in and avoid your attacks. So try to cut off room for sonic to breath by starting the match and getting in his face. Not to say that it doesnt require some careful calculation of how to keep sonic from getting momentum but taking away his space to run will cripple his ground game and he isnt nearly as threatening with aerial approaches due to being slow in the air and if hes jumping while youre close by then you can swat him out of the sky and off stage to further reduce his stage presence and just keep poking off stage from there. That being said i dont think my strategy is as fully formed as other's strategies might be so hopeful someone else also has advice in the MU.

 

[Carlil]

Does anyone have any match up experience vs luigi? I find they are becoming popular since 3.6 and im having a hard time dealing with them

 

[S£NPAI]

Does anyone have any match up experience vs luigi? I find they are becoming popular since 3.6 and im having a hard time dealing with them

Yep you are right Luigis are popping up around me as well. I tend to play this matchup very patiently, try not to challenge Luigi to much in the air, his nair comes out really fast, and is pretty much used by most Luigi players as a GTFOM move when you've got him on the ropes.

Look to using a lot of F-tilt to poke at him, and if your gonna go for an aerial kill move I'd go with Nair or maybe Flare Blade (a b-reversed one might catch him off guard), Bair is kind of tricky to hit Luigi with, especially at high percents due to how damn floaty he is.

I think he can be Forward throw chain grabbed at early percents, so use that to your advantage as well. Luigis tend to utilize side b to recover high a lot, so if it looks like he could go for high or low, grab ledge and ledgehop u-air if he goes high, or ledgehop dair if he uses it low, this is typical Roy Ledgeguard tactics, but It can usually set up into F-smash or Bair depending on how high Luigi's percent is.

Overall though if you have a less fasfaller like secondary I would pull it out for this matchup and many other super floaties. I tend to go charizard against Luigi because of his great vertical air chasing game. But learning your harder matchups is always a good thing. The V I C E R O Y Lyfe is hard.

 

[Taytertot]

Does anyone have any match up experience vs luigi? I find they are becoming popular since 3.6 and im having a hard time dealing with them

I agree with TheRedKitsune with this. luigi is kinda difficult to combo due to being floaty and having nair which comes out so quick. Poking and playing the spacing game is going to be better for you then going in like you normally would in other MUs. Think of your gameplan as if you were playing marth and had few combo options because youre going to want to rack up damage by keeping luigi out, so be defensive. Luigi's main weakness in this MU is his lack of ranged attacks and kinda crappy projectile forcing him to have to approach from somewhat far away so just smack him when he gets close and adjust your spacing so that you eventually have him at the edge and poke him offstage where you can more easily use moves like flare blade to get the kill.

dtilt, ftilt and nair are going to be good spacing tools for you. fair is also good but dont use it too aggressively because luigi will catch you offguard and gain a lot of momentum. use uair if his above you but be careful about getting to close to him because he'll just throw out nair. since he's very floaty you might actually have a better chance of closing stocks with usmash then you normally would. jab can help you a lot if luigi is catching you with really quick wavedash attack approaches.

 

[Sundark]

Taytertot makes a great point with playing like a bad Marth. Spacing Fairs to keep him out is one of your best options, and knowing when to follow up and when to dodge the neutral air is essential. You can also juggle pretty well with Up throws/tilts/airs since his aerial mobility is bad, but again, be mindful of the neutral air and make sure you're gonna hit as far from him as you can.

Luigi is pretty slow outside of WD so make sure to keep light on your feet. If he attempts to approach at low percents with Down B, crouch cancel it and smack him for it. SDI his jabs or eat Shoryukens.

If he comes in low on the recovery, edgehogging him is like edgehogging 3.5 Roy, wait at the ledge and WD back with a fastfall to snap to the ledge as he rises with his Down B, then hop back up and repeat the process for his Up B. Get in some lab time and learn Up Throw kill percentages on some of the more common stages you'll play on (Battlefield, PS2, GHZ/Fountain, some of his CPs like Norfair or Distant), because Luigi can and will live to those percentages, and having a quick way to close those stocks out is really helpful.

 

[Smolder]

Don't know if this has already been said, but punish his whiffed nairs with an fsmash. If he's too high, wait for the nair, then hit him with either an utilt or tipper uair. The first step to winning this MU is to make the Luigi scared to use his nair.

 

[Brim]

Does anyone have any match up experience vs luigi? I find they are becoming popular since 3.6 and im having a hard time dealing with them

Others may have already answered, you just need to know how to read Luigi. Know when he's trying to hit you with his charged head-butt, or whatever it's called. Think of sort of playing against Mario except he can't really dunk you, and his fireballs are different, and well you know the usually Luigi quirks like one of longest wave dashes in the game.
One big thing to note is his off-ledge game, if you're trying to get back up Luigi can literally destroy you. So, the basic word is try to not get knocked off stage, and if you do recover EARLY as to try to interrupt his ledge guards. And don't forget about his pain in the ass, nair.
--
And since we're still doing MUs, what's your guys opinion against ZSS? I have a harder time against her than I realized because of her damn tazer lazer, and her ability to juggle near the ledge is especially irritating.

 

[Carlil]

The knowledge you guys gave me helped me tremendously against a local luigi player. I had total control of the game! Thanks a lot. As for the ZSS mu, i dont have much exp but i believe wavedash OoS is helpful against her. Say she shoots a laser and comes at you with a nair, WOoS and fsmash. It worked against a zss i played

 

[Taytertot]

And since we're still doing MUs, what's your guys opinion against ZSS? I have a harder time against her than I realized because of her damn tazer lazer, and her ability to juggle near the ledge is especially irritating.

i find this MU a little odd. ive both had times where i could combo zss hard and other times where i feel like im only getting little pokes here and there. i think the main difficulty in my mind is that i have no idea how to define her as a character and therefore i have difficulty breaking down her gameplan into something tangible. I mean shes obviously fast and and has a lot of combos that are heavily DI dependent, but i dont know what the archetype is meant to be. Does anyone know how to define zss?

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

i find this MU a little odd. ive both had times where i could combo zss hard and other times where i feel like im only getting little pokes here and there. i think the main difficulty in my mind is that i have no idea how to define her as a character and therefore i have difficulty breaking down her gameplan into something tangible. I mean shes obviously fast and and has a lot of combos that are heavily DI dependent, but i dont know what the archetype is meant to be. Does anyone know how to define zss?

Zss is kind of like a campy captain falcon. She isn't as fast but she has a great combo game. You just have to out camp her really. Once she throws something out that's unsafe you need to punish her really hard. One nerf she got was that if you hit her off stage she only gets her down b once. So wait for her to down b swat her away, and when she tries to recover just grab ledge. She can either fade back to grab it(after forced tether jump) or she can land on stage with a bunch of lag. You don't have to get a read here you can just do it on reaction. If she fades back just hold on and she dies, if she lands onstage you can jump from ledge and get a reverse back air or dair->fsmash or anything else you want since she is in landing lag for a long time.

 

[X0dus]

Is there already a post about the G&W match-up? If there isn't, how does Roy do in 3.6 and what should Roy do?

 

[steamymartini]

A good fox trumps on Roy in 3.6 Neutral game is all Fox. But Roy's punish game against fox is really good.

 

[steamymartini]

Is there already a post about the G&W match-up? If there isn't, how does Roy do in 3.6 and what should Roy do?

I have a friend who mains Game & Watch. All he does is jab and down tilt.
Against Game & Watch as Roy, you have to be patient and wait for GW's moves to finish. Most of his moves have plenty of ending lag.

 

[Taytertot]

Is there already a post about the G&W match-up? If there isn't, how does Roy do in 3.6 and what should Roy do?

im not 100% sure what to do in this MU but according to dakpo (one of the best if not the best G&W) the MU is pretty heavily in roy's favor. So maybe watching some sethlon/lunchables vs dakpo will give you ideas about how to handle the MU.

 

[Taytertot]

Hey dakpo by any chance could you explain some of your thoughts on why G&W loses this MU?

 

[Dakpo]

Hey dakpo by any chance could you explain some of your thoughts on why G&W loses this MU?

The characters have a really similar kits. It's entirely about spacing disjointed hit boxes against the opponent. Both of our characters heavily rely on downtilt. Usually this is OK but Marf and Roy both have downtilts that out range GnW. We also can't land vs the character. This causes neutral to be unwinnable if played correctly. It mainly comes down to both characters want to do the same thing except Roy does it better

 

[Charmilio]

Can we have some discussion about the Marth matchup? I'm sure it's very elementary but I've been having lots of trouble lately. My approaches are getting shut out by utilt, rising fairs and tilts. I've been working on spacing back and using side-b pokes but it's usually beat out by a wd tilt or even a dash attack. Utilt especially, the only move I can think of even similar to Roy is Flare Blade and that doesn't cover Roy's rear at all, much less give the super-free follow ups (THANKS WEIGHT). I'm also having lots of trouble against Bowser, but I feel like that's just a matter of skill vs the player instead of matchup related reasons.

also much love to @ Dakpo , GnW and Roy are my fellas and having my favourite players help the scene out in these threads is super rad.

 

[Taytertot]

Can we have some discussion about the Marth matchup? I'm sure it's very elementary but I've been having lots of trouble lately. My approaches are getting shut out by utilt, rising fairs and tilts. I've been working on spacing back and using side-b pokes but it's usually beat out by a wd tilt or even a dash attack. Utilt especially, the only move I can think of even similar to Roy is Flare Blade and that doesn't cover Roy's rear at all, much less give the super-free follow ups (THANKS WEIGHT). I'm also having lots of trouble against Bowser, but I feel like that's just a matter of skill vs the player instead of matchup related reasons.

also much love to @ Dakpo , GnW and Roy are my fellas and having my favourite players help the scene out in these threads is super rad.

So i certainly dont know everything about the marth matchup but i feel that its overall a very even matchup because both characters can do pretty crazy stuff to each other. That being said it can be really rough if youre not careful. Keep in mind that this info is how i approach the matchup and that i might have a flawed strategy or at least need to improve my strategy in this MU but i do generally feel pretty comfortable fighting marth. (Edit: my thoughts are a little jumbled and unorganized cause its late so i might edit this more later, sorry)

One of the most important things to remember in this MU is that marth wants to keep you out because he does more damage and gets better combos with his tippers, the opposite is true for roy. Once roy gets in past marth's tippers he can deal massive damage back. But it sounds like youre having trouble in neutral. Generally in neutral you want to be using dtilt spacing, a lot of DDing and maybe a bit of ftilt here and there. I dont imagine that trying to poke at marth with sideB is very safe from neutral and should probably be used more when you have the advantage instead. Dont be afraid to not be actively throwing out attacks to pressure marth. Trying finding your spacing with crouches and DDing so that if marth pushes in just slightly hes at risk of being hit because marth and roy have pretty much the same threat zone and so whoever is the first to go into the others zone is going to be the one comboed theoretically speaking. Another thing to get comfortable with is what distances from marth are better for DDing and what distances are better for WDing. Im unsure about what moves marth has that can beat out CCing but at 0% you should be able to CC most of marth's moves i imagine so if marth tries to push in too aggressively and you are crouching or ready to crouch then you can tank the hit and dtilt him which will allow you to start comboing. A factor that applies to both marth and roy is that their attacks a pretty committal, especially in the air, which is why roy and marth are more grounded characters and usually jump for combos or in specific situations (though keep in mind that marth cant fall nearly as fast as roy which means that he cant Lcancel as soon unless he throws out an aerial really late and even so, roy can do SHFFL aerials in a quicker succession). If both of you are DDing then grab games are going to be very important since both have get grab range and good setups from their grabs. Its risky but, you can try WD in and shield in hopes that the marth will instinctively go for an attack and then you can punish with a grab. to simplify some of this and focus on the neutral game, if you can try to poke at marth's approaches with tipper dtilts or other tipper moves then, despite not getting a true followup, you will be at a frame advantage which you can then force marth to at the very least lose some stage control by moving forward but not committing to anything that might get you punished (which may mean that you cant actually throw out an attack but you can take some stage positioning from marth) which will allow you to play aggressively with a bit more safety because marth will lack the same amount of space to move freely.