"I don't care how strong you are. It's not strong enough!" Roy Match Up Thread

[Sixonesix]

Maintain your spacing, ideally you want to turn the match into a game of zoning HER out. She's got range but her overall frame data isn't that great (sound familiar?) so a lot of her stuff is punishable if you're patient. Also helps to avoid getting grabbed at all costs because Ivy does terrible, evil things off of a grab, including simply catching improper DI with a surprise bthrow or the newly buffed fthrow. You're Roy, you die from that lol.

Edgeguarding Ivy is easy: grab ledge (be PATIENT) -> dair -> bair

Unfortunately for Roy, Ivysaur edgeguards him even easier with bair and maybe even a super deep uair spike if you try to recover low, and can set up those edgeguards even without grab with things like dash attack (which combos into itself on Roy). Your up b protects you from onstage dsmash unless you're outrageously bad at sweetspotting, at least.

Stage-wise, Ivysaur will occasionally try to take you to larger stages because she's slightly less terrible than you are on them and also a bit more afraid of dying to a fsmash at 40% than you are of being a little closer to a gimp death (which is a constant danger regardless of stage anyway). If she's gutsy and tired of chasing you down she might try Yoshi's Story, but more likely you'll just wind up playing the whole set on mid-sized stages.

It's about even I think, both characters can really kind of piss each other off.

 

[Sundark]

Something I think is worth pointing out is to be careful when attempting to edgehog too early, as a well-timed Razor Leaf can put you in a rough spot if it hits you off the edge, meaning you should time your invincibility for when she's too low or close to feasibly throw one out.

And something a local Ivy player likes to abuse is following up either Dthrow or Fthrow (I'm not sure which) which a quick Up-B, which can get pretty brutal at higher percents, so it's important to be conscious of your DI.

Dsmash and DED xxx^ are especially viable kill options, too.

 

[TFerg]

Imo Roy beats Ivy pretty hard in 3.5. I've praxticed against a few solid ones and it's just been ridiculously easy in neutral and punish game. If they're off stage then they're basically a free kill because their hurt box is too big to not get hit by bair out of the ledge hop.

Combos and tech chases on Ivy are also really easy, and your d smash kills her at really early %.

(A great mixup option in this mu is ledge dash d smash imo)

Basically dd away from razor leaf, go for grabs as much as possible and abuse her huge hitbox. You can zone her ou just as well. Roy also has the tools to deal with her edge guards with proper di. Neutral and punish game both favor Roy imo

 

[Taytertot]

Imo Roy beats Ivy pretty hard in 3.5. I've praxticed against a few solid ones and it's just been ridiculously easy in neutral and punish game. If they're off stage then they're basically a free kill because their hurt box is too big to not get hit by bair out of the ledge hop.

Combos and tech chases on Ivy are also really easy, and your d smash kills her at really early %.

(A great mixup option in this mu is ledge dash d smash imo)

Basically dd away from razor leaf, go for grabs as much as possible and abuse her huge hitbox. You can zone her ou just as well. Roy also has the tools to deal with her edge guards with proper di. Neutral and punish game both favor Roy imo

Id like to know how neutral is going down in your matches because i feel that ivy has more range then roy giving ivy the ability to space out roy, especially since ivys sweetspots are at the tip generally which should give ivy priority at max range. Ivy's dtilt is really good and i dont see how DDing would get you around ivy's razor leaf because she can just throw another one before roy has enough time to dash back in towards her and if you jump over it ivy can throw out retreating bair on reaction to zone roy out. If roy blocks razor leaf at far range ivy just throws out another retreating sh razor leaf to cover aggressive options in order to keep the match at neutral. If roy blocks razor leaf at close range ivy can grab roy. All in all i dont see how roy beats ivy hard. I dont think this MU is 30/70 in ivy's favor but 40/60 or at least 45/55 in ivy's favor seems fair. But maybe im overlooking something so what are you doing and what are the ivy players doing?

 

[thechosenjuan]

Id like to know how neutral is going down in your matches because i feel that ivy has more range then roy giving ivy the ability to space out roy, especially since ivys sweetspots are at the tip generally which should give ivy priority at max range. Ivy's dtilt is really good and i dont see how DDing would get you around ivy's razor leaf because she can just throw another one before roy has enough time to dash back in towards her and if you jump over it ivy can throw out retreating bair on reaction to zone roy out. If roy blocks razor leaf at far range ivy just throws out another retreating sh razor leaf to cover aggressive options in order to keep the match at neutral. If roy blocks razor leaf at close range ivy can grab roy. All in all i dont see how roy beats ivy hard. I dont think this MU is 30/70 in ivy's favor but 40/60 or at least 45/55 in ivy's favor seems fair. But maybe im overlooking something so what are you doing and what are the ivy players doing?

Well my training buddy is a really really good Squirtle main, best Squirtle in Michigan, I'd say. He picked up Ivy (mostly for me, other Roy players, and for other characters like game and watch.) He plays the neutral by playing keep away using a combination of razor leaf and back air which has great spacing. Once I can bait him out enough to get a grab in, that can usually (if I'm playing well) lead to death/high percent/edgeguard by abusing the tether mechanic. Roy wins that matchup on the edge like that, no doubt. I don't see Ivy as a bad matchup, just harder to play out because of her projectiles/spacing. In all honesty, I think the matchup after playing it for a while can be an even 50/50

 

[Binary Clone]

The MU is entirely about who is in control. If Ivy has stage control and spaces you out with bairs and razor leaves, it can be incredibly difficult to get in against her. But if Roy gets in and is able to apply pressure, Ivy often struggles to deal with it, and as soon as she is offstage, she is pretty much dead.

 

[Taytertot]

Hmm interesting. I'll have to try that next time I get a chance to play the ivy player here.

 

[Qazoo306]

I found something while playing against a CPU Diddy that could completely change the Jigglypuff match up. A reverse Up B (like what marth does as a KO option) KOs Jigglypuff off the top from 0 on low ceiling stages and is guaranteed at roughly 30 or so on FD (it's guaranteed from 0 if there's no DI). How does this change the Jigglypuff matchup? This really only works on Puff because it has high base nockback but almost no scaling, but I haven't gotten to test it on many other characters yet, but I'm pretty sure it only works on puff and maybe Kirby.

Edit: Sorry if this was already discovered, I just haven't seen it anywhere else and was really excited to hove found something new.

 

[thechosenjuan]

I found something while playing against a CPU Diddy that could completely change the Jigglypuff match up. A reverse Up B (like what marth does as a KO option) KOs Jigglypuff off the top from 0 on low ceiling stages and is guaranteed at roughly 30 or so on FD (it's guaranteed from 0 if there's no DI). How does this change the Jigglypuff matchup? This really only works on Puff because it has high base nockback but almost no scaling, but I haven't gotten to test it on many other characters yet, but I'm pretty sure it only works on puff and maybe Kirby.

Edit: Sorry if this was already discovered, I just haven't seen it anywhere else and was really excited to hove found something new.

This was something that was in melee, and was carried over to PM. It doesn't really change the matchup at all, cause the only time you'd wanna go for it is on a missed rest to kill her in one hit, but Roy can probably already do that with a neutral b or fsmash on puff. Punishing a rest with Up B is just for style points.

 

[Azureflames]

I found something while playing against a CPU Diddy that could completely change the Jigglypuff match up. A reverse Up B (like what marth does as a KO option) KOs Jigglypuff off the top from 0 on low ceiling stages and is guaranteed at roughly 30 or so on FD (it's guaranteed from 0 if there's no DI). How does this change the Jigglypuff matchup? This really only works on Puff because it has high base nockback but almost no scaling, but I haven't gotten to test it on many other characters yet, but I'm pretty sure it only works on puff and maybe Kirby.

Edit: Sorry if this was already discovered, I just haven't seen it anywhere else and was really excited to hove found something new.

Like thechosenjuan said this was already a thing known from melee. nbd though =P, there are always people learning and finding out about these things that werent familiar with it. Overall it doesnt change the MU too much, though it can definitely induce both players to respect each other quite a bit. Roy has to play extremely careful, playing with low commit moves like walling fairs or nairs; if you go for Fsmash, DED, or missed Dsmash you can easily get rested for your stock. Since jiggs can be KO'd with reverse upB, it forces her to be more precise or less wreckless with rest attempts for sure since she has to respect the option that you have a potent punish if she wiffs.

This was something that was in melee, and was carried over to PM. It doesn't really change the matchup at all, cause the only time you'd wanna go for it is on a missed rest to kill her in one hit, but Roy can probably already do that with a neutral b or fsmash on puff. Punishing a rest with Up B is just for style points.

hilariously, enough i find reverse upB to be the best rest punish option vs flare blade/Fsmash.

 

[CyberZixx]

I wish there was a puff player in my area purely so I could upb rest punish.

 

[Taytertot]

huh is it the first hit of roy's upB that just has a lot more KB because ive never noticed a hit of upB that would have any potential to KO anyone until some ungodly high percent? (obviously im no melee player)

 

[Azureflames]

huh is it the first hit of roy's upB that just has a lot more KB because ive never noticed a hit of upB that would have any potential to KO anyone until some ungodly high percent? (obviously im no melee player)

If you've never seen it before:

Yeah, iirc the way his upB works is that there is an initial hitbox with a lot of knockback so that the initial hit can link into the multi-hitboxes of the rest of the move. If you reverse the move you hit them with the initial hitbox and not the rest. Jigglypuff is at the perfect weight that the initial hitbox will straight up one hit KO her.

 

[Taytertot]

wow I did not know that. Is it worth doing in any other MU (maybe at somewhat higher percents)? I know metaknight is also very light but he is also a much faster faller then jiggs, so maybe not.

 

[thechosenjuan]

I'm pretty sure it only works on jiggly, at any percent.

 

[Qazoo306]

wow I did not know that. Is it worth doing in any other MU (maybe at somewhat higher percents)? I know metaknight is also very light but he is also a much faster faller then jiggs, so maybe not.

Not really. It doesn't even KO Falcon at extreemly high percents. Kirby and maybe G&W are the only other characters I could see this having much use on. Maybe it can be used to break out of a combo and retreat into a platform at the same time? But I find this matchup to be funny because both character have potential to one shot eachother. A rest near the edge is GG stock due to Roy's poor recovery, and a reverse up B does the same to puff. I think the best trick with this matchup is to keep center stage control and avoid getting grabbed. Punish puff players with the reverse up B when given an opportunity to.

 

[chrisall76]

Any tips on the ZSS matchup? I especially can't seem to get past lasers anytime she puts them out.

 

[Taytertot]

Any tips on the ZSS matchup? I especially can't seem to get past lasers anytime she puts them out.

Well dealing with the lasers, as with any projectile, is dependent on the situation. If ZSS isnt so close that she could punish you for it you could use the first hit of sideB to clank with it in hopes that the ZSS might try to run in as you continue the string of sideB moves though that probably wont work more then once or twice in a set. I find that certain projectiles are perfect for clanking with ftilt because if youre close enough when they throw it out you can clank with the projectile and hit them as theyre in the end lag of it (like say ivysaur for example). But generally its going to be safer to jump over them and move backward so they cant punish your jump. Another thing to remember is that you can ban stages that will make it easier for projectile characters to camp you out in tourneys. Even in friendlies it might help to pick a stage that has a fair amount of platforms so that you have space to move and avoid those lasers (in which case, if your platform movement isnt great then that would be something to work on). You can also work on perfect/power shielding them. The other thing to note if you are unaware or forget to think about it in the middle of a tense match (we've all been there) all projectile characters are going to be ready for you to avoid or block the projectile and generally they will use that to their advantage by trying to use a grab or other attack to punish your positioning/option so being ready with a strategy for when they to follow up the projectile will, in many situations, help turn the momentum in your favor.

Other then that someone else will need to give advice because i dont know ZSS that well.

 

[Brim]

I'm pretty sure it only works on jiggly, at any percent.

Only if that Jiggly is bad at DI if you do it at zero. She can survive from zero, trust me I've 'tested' this more than a few times. I haven't gotten much chances to test it at other percentages honestly.
-
Speaking of MU does anyone have advice for taking on Falcon? He seems to be just ridiculous with grab punishes. I know this is sort of common sense but it's hard to avoid those grabs if he's significantly faster than you (character wise not so much player).

 

[Broccoli]

Dash Dancing is really effective, you should do your best to let him engage, and punish him.

So, play like every other matchup?

 

[Taytertot]

ok roys i need help with another mu. im sure a fair amount of my issues are due to my lack of tech skill and therefore am unable to keep up with the speed but captain falcon has been giving me a lot of trouble lately. Im unsure of what to look for as an opening against him and i dont know what weaknesses captain falcon has as a character other then his recovery being kinda meh.

So how should i be thinking about this matchup?
what weaknesses can i exploit?
what weaknesses does roy have that i need to be careful not to fall victim of?
what moves or combos work really well against the captain?
are there specific DI's that i need to be using to avoid big combos of falcon's?

any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Sundark]

I have a few C. Falcon players I play against every now and then, I'll try and give some tips.

Weaknesses you can exploit:
- You said yourself he's got bad recovery. Roy's edgeguarding capabilities aren't fantastic, but they'll get the job done on Falcon. If he's ever in a position where he needs to Dive to recover, simply standing at the edge with a Flare Blade can cover it really well, but you can also use Dtilts to pop him up into a followup, or give him a couple run-off Fairs to seal the deal. Be wary of tipman Uairs if he has his double jump, though, stage spikes result pretty easily on Roy.
- He's excellent combo weight. DED with x^ in the string is hard for him to deal with in general. Uair juggles will keep him locked down for a while if you can keep them on point. Roy pillars (Dtilt to sweetspot Dair) can build percent quickly as per usual.
- You have a sword. Outspace him, outspace him, outspace him. Dtilts, Ftilts, Fairs, Nairs, Dairs OoS, etc. all stuff his approaches pretty well.
- Falcon's meaty hits are pretty easy to predict, so try luring him into a comfort zone with stomps and knees, then try throwing out a counter for a free stock. Flub it and you get grabbed though.

Stuff to look out for:
- Grabs. Falcon will chaingrab you for breakfast, lunch, and supper and even leave you a nice electric-knee-flavoured ice cream with a stock-cherry on top. Mind your DI for those at all times and mix up your tech options when you can. Roy's tech roll is slow enough for Falcon to react to (for everyone to react to, really), so try to avoid those unless you know you'll deke him out. Don't forget you can use a slower getup, or a raw land to a roll as options as well. Approaching with aerials is basically asking for a shieldgrab to ruin your day, so focus on grab approaches if you're not spacing him out. And if you're DEDing his shield and he doesn't grab you between 2 and 3, use 4 back to get out of his range.
- Dash dances. Falcon will dance around outside of your sword range for as long as he sees fit. One of my Falcon players will dash dance for a bit, jump over me and nail my shield with a Dair, then resume dash dancing on the other side all day if I let him. Apply your own dances and OoS wavedashes to combat this.
- He can combo you just as well as you can him, basically. Keep survival DI in your mind when he gets his knee all up in your face.

That's about all I can offer you right now. I'm terrible at DI personally so I can't give you guaranteed anti-Falcon-combo DI unfortunately. Don't get hit etc etc.

 

[Taytertot]

thanks man i'll keep that in mind next time i play falcon.

 

[Sundark]

Sort of a Wolf thing, sort of a spacies thing, sort of a general thing, how does Roy best deal with shield pressure? With specific regard to spacies, since that kind of eliminates shield grabs. I'm thinking probably just Wavedash OoS (which I flip between doing excellently and forgetting that it exists entirely), but if there are any other tips that could help I'd love to know.

Another Wolf-specific thing, what do you do vs. a Wolf who likes to shine you, then, if you CC it, he just shines you again? Obviously without leading into some horrific chain of eating shines through CC until you're too high to CC it anymore. I really tend to get locked down by Wolf's pillars, moreso than Falco's for sure.

Honestly, a lot of general spacies-in-neutral tips would be appreciated. I like to think that I know the spacie matchup really well, but I find myself struggling against our higher-level players with their crazy button-fests.

 

[Smolder]

Sort of a Wolf thing, sort of a spacies thing, sort of a general thing, how does Roy best deal with shield pressure? With specific regard to spacies, since that kind of eliminates shield grabs. I'm thinking probably just Wavedash OoS (which I flip between doing excellently and forgetting that it exists entirely), but if there are any other tips that could help I'd love to know.

Another Wolf-specific thing, what do you do vs. a Wolf who likes to shine you, then, if you CC it, he just shines you again? Obviously without leading into some horrific chain of eating shines through CC until you're too high to CC it anymore. I really tend to get locked down by Wolf's pillars, moreso than Falco's for sure.

Honestly, a lot of general spacies-in-neutral tips would be appreciated. I like to think that I know the spacie matchup really well, but I find myself struggling against our higher-level players with their crazy button-fests.

I'll just quote something I said earlier in this thread, if that's okay.
"Oh, and as for dealing with their shield pressure, let them shine your shield a couple of times and look for an opportunity to roll out. Trying to challenge their shield pressure is foolish. It's actually a bad idea to shield against them most of the time. Just stay as squirmy as possible with your movement tech so you don't have to rely on your shield."

"I know this may sound like some dumb advice that doesn't even need to be said, but fox and falco love it when their targets aren't moving or are attempting to CC them. CCing Falco is a bad idea, because his dair causes you to stagger, which gives him a free shine follow up, and Fox loves to drill shine those who think they can CC him. In most MU's, I would just say something along the lines of "Just CC dtilt and win", But with this MU, you kind of have to throw that piece of fundamentals out the window."
^^^ This applies to Wolf as well. His drill shine is just fast enough to negate CC.

 

[Wreckening]

Anything on the Yoshi matchup? Really struggling to deal with the armor

 

[Smolder]

Anything on the Yoshi matchup? Really struggling to deal with the armor

Deal with his armor like you deal with a Luigi nair. Know when you can and can't combo him. Also, in the ground war; don't rely on CC. Yoshi's dtilt pushes you too far away to react out of CC and his dsmash will blow up a CC'ing Roy at mid-percent. This is, for all intents and purposes, a bad MU for Roy. Just play it smart. Go for stage control over damage in this MU. If you have the choice between getting a few extra percent in a combo, or getting him off-stage, always go for the latter option, because Yoshi has limited recovery options. If you can snipe his jump after the armor, he will then have to do a predictable egg-roll to air-dodge back to the stage, giving you ample time to punish accordingly.

 

[chrisall76]

What's the matchup like against Wolf/Toon Link? In a school tournament and want to make sure I know what to do against one guy in my bracket.

 

[Taytertot]

What's the matchup like against Wolf/Toon Link? In a school tournament and want to make sure I know what to do against one guy in my bracket.

watching sethlon's matches vs lunchables should help with how the toon link roy mu goes. sorry i dont have anything else for you on that.

 

[Brim]

Hey guys any idea on the Sheik match up? I really have no clue how to take on Sheik other than be the better player with superior mobility, which almost always goes to Sheik anyway.

 

[Smolder]

So Sheik is a bit of an ugly MU for Roy. There are two big problems that Roys tend to have with Sheik.
A.) Her tech chases.
B.) Her gimp game.
If you want to have any chance against a Sheik, you must learn how to effectively deal with both A. and B.

When fighting a Sheik, you must always mix up your techs. Mixing up your techs for her down throw is essential because if she adapts to your tech pattern, she will easily rack up some good percent before finishing you off with a down throw --> drop down fair on ledge. If you can't seem to figure out a way to get past her tech chasing, begin teching towards the closest ledge. This is very dangerous though, because she can follow you off the ledge with a drop down fair. You must DI her throw up down and away so that you are close enough to make it back to the ledge and so that she can't get a fair follow up.

As for dealing with her gimp game, you can utilize two or three different tactics that I know of. The first tactic would be to merely up-B early. If you notice that the Sheik is running towards the ledge at breakneck speed in an attempt to gimp you, just up-B early to catch her off guard. Due to the priority of your up-B, you will almost always beat her before she can throw out a fair. If you find yourself falling parallel to the wall of the stage, you can let her go off for you, fall until you are at max range, and then up-B almost straight upwards. Due to your fall speed as compared to hers and the amount of time it takes her to get to you, you can usually win with this tactic. The third tactic is very niche and rarely used, but if she hits you with a lower knockback move that only sends you slightly away from the ledge, you can let her run off towards you, then do a fade back jump to bait out the fair and then follow up with an up-B to get back to the stage while racking up some percent on her. As you can see, most of your recovery game revolves around beating her fair attempts, because she WILL go out as deep as she needs to secure those early stocks.

When dealing with her in neutral, keep in mind that she can come down on you with a fair, then follow up with either a ftilt or a jab. Let her drop on your shield with her fair, let her ftilt, then punish her with a grab. I'm not sure you can do the same with her jab though, seeing as it turns into a multi-hit move. Also, keep in mind that she can mix up her fair approach with a follow up grab. Watch to see which of these mix ups she uses the most and punish accordingly. Fortunately, CC dtilt is actually pretty useful against her due to its fast IASA frames and the fact that she's at that sweet spot combo weight where you can do some ugly things to her.

Your whole game plan will be to play footsies with her until you can get a confirmed dtilt or grab, then push her towards the edge of the stage. Sheik has a glass jaw when she's the one who's trying to recover. More often than not, you can actually hold the ledge, see where she lands from her up-B and if she ends up on stage, you can ledge dash to grab or ledge dash to fsmash. Either way, she's in for some pain. Most Sheiks, however, will try to up-B into you on the ledge to get you either stage spiked or back on stage so she can have the ledge. This tactic of theirs is actually highly effective and very hard to punish due to the invincibility frames on her up-B. However, if you get lucky and they mess up their spacing on the up-B, you can actually dair from ledge and either get the spike, the knock up, or the semi-spike. (Her up-B doesn't have invincibility on the first few frames of start up) All of these are great options because two of them are a confirmed kill and one of them is a possible kill because you can L-cancel on stage then do a bair follow up to put her even further away from the ledge. Also, keep in mind that that the first explosion of her up-B is the only one with damage and knock back. The second explosion that you see of her coming out of her up-B actually does nothing. This means you can just hold the ledge and watch her lose a stock if she attempts a sweet spot.

I hope this helps you out, man. That MU is pretty annoying to play against. =)

A little bit of a dated post. I could probably make some edits here and there, but Frankly, I'm too lazy. =P

 

[Taytertot]

im sorry that i keep giving videos as examples for how to play certain MU's rather then trying to break them down but since im not very good at the Sheik MU myself id recommend slowly going through each interaction of sethlon's match against umbreon since they both show a very good understanding of their characters and sethlon really shows how to handle that match against a very smart sheik player

 

[X0dus]

What are Roy's bad match-ups?

 

[Taytertot]

What are Roy's bad match-ups?

personally i dont like sheik, ivysaur or DK.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

personally i dont like sheik, ivysaur or DK.

I don't mind the Sheik Match-up so much. I definitely agree on Ivysaur. I have quite a few issues with Samus

 

[Taytertot]

I don't mind the Sheik Match-up so much. I definitely agree on Ivysaur. I have quite a few issues with Samus

how do you handle the sheik MU? i feel that it could be a 50:50 MU but i just have a lot of trouble with the combos, tech chases and needles in neutral.
i also have difficulty with samus though i havent played against many. it feels like samus can get out of combos really quick and has alright combos herself not to mention the projectiles which arent that hard to fair through but they add enough to the MU that neutral is annoying and with that added floaty heavy aspect of samus's physics i find myself not getting much when i do get in.

 

[Sundark]

There's tons and tons of info on the Sheik MU already in the thread, but I can talk about the Samus MU a bit here. I've played a bit against a really solid Samus in my area (admittedly I've never won in bracket) and am picking up a couple things.

As far as combos go, you're basically right, she's gonna get out of your traditional stuff really easily due to her awkward weight/fall speed. However, she is really susceptible to Uair strings. Her best defense against them is either bombs or awkward late nairs, but if you keep your spacing tight, they shouldn't be too much of an issue. Worth pointing out is that Fthrow -> DACUS is a semi-usable option if you can do it.

Missiles are a pretty hefty pain to deal with, but like you said, Fair through them as much as you can and you can always Shield -> Wavedash OoS to keep closing the gap. Once the gap is closed you basically have your match. The same shielding strategy applies for her Zairs if she likes to start throwing those out.

Don't get overwhelmed by Samus's recovery. Between bombs, tether, and the Screw Attack, it is pretty powerful, but it's not unbeatable. Obviously with tether you just have to grab the ledge, and be patient, patient, patient. The reel-in is an easy Bair, Dair, or Uair to do whatever you want with. Probably even ledgedash reverse F-smash could work. If she makes it to the ledge, respect the ledgehop Fair. All you need to do is outspace it or shield it and you can punish.

Mix up your recovery as best as you can, and keep your survival DI on point. If you come in low with Blazer, you're eating a Nair trade to the face, and that's a guaranteed stock loss.

If and when she switches to Ice mode, you can start using Counter on things like Fair and Usmash if you're a gangster.

 

[Deleted member]

There's tons and tons of info on the Sheik MU already in the thread

allow me to add some.

normally when sheik has to play against the FE characters, she wins on every front except neutral, which she loses at high level play because sheik has no reliable outs to dashdance abuse. you could argue that needles help sheiks neutral vs DD but that doesnt really work past mid level play because you can simply choose not to stand 45 degrees below an aerial sheik (and you shouldnt because AC fair is super safe if she does that instead) and ground needles you can just block and her animation is laggy. if you're running at sheik and she throws needles you can respect block and take some amount of stage from her in the process, but if you block them at any other point then it's just parity.

sheik is an exception because of how dtilt works on roy. sheik doesnt really have a neutral game, sheik's core game play is essentially SH FF AC fair abuse in and out of WD back and she just tries not to run into anything until she can grab, or until the opponent gets in and then you SH FF AC nair OOS (nair and fair are both safer on fade but its not always necessary). DD beats this core because it bypasses sheiks poor aerial mobility on her safe fairs and good DD play really has no reason to commit and expose roy to unnecessary risk (esp while roy's dtilt still has a sweetspot on the tip). Therefore, it's easy to deduce that roy's best plan vs sheik is DD in and out of dtilt.

you want grabs as well to keep sheik honest because of shield abuse, but even when you grab you're essentially using fthrow/dthrow to unilaterally set up dtilt, or force her to tech roll, which you chase with dtilt. normally most characters with good throw games want to upthrow sheik and try to juggle her to abuse her poor air mobility and mediocre combo weight, but throw > ??? > dtilt is better specifically for roy because you get the same launcher effect but the IASA on dtilt is much more forgiving in terms of getting a good punishment than upthrowing and having less time to work with to set up a good combo out of your conversion. it also pays off to use DD into dtilt conversions aggressively in this MU, partially because it gets her to stop her needle harassment and partially because you can run sheik out of stage quickly by forcing her to retreat to respect your dtilt, and then she either jumps which is 100% advantageous for you or she tries to cross you up with a roll or WD which loses to a second pivot dtilt using the IASA on the first one.

good aggression is also good because you can get ASDI out of both of your conversions. either by holding down for dtilt (duh) or by holding down during the grab animation, if sheik happens to hit you with anything, you get "fake crouching" ASDI and you can dtilt her back out of it. normally this is something available to both players and is not problematic. the difference is that roy dtilt breaks ASDI at 0% while sheiks tilts are super easy to crouch well into the middle % ranges, so you will generally win this exchange as long as you're under the right % range, and the reward is just really good for roy. sheik can somewhat negate this with WD back > dsmash instead of a tilt but dsmash has much worse range, and even if it hits doesnt particularly do a lot outside of resetting the match back to neutral (a retreating sheik doing WD back dsmash to styme your aggression while respecting dtilt will basically never kill you because it means shes probably backed into a corner already and you're on the far side of the stage).

this goes without saying but a lot of people don't internalize this- when you "get" sheik, kill her. people drop punishments all the time for no reason. you have a disjointed ASDI proof launcher vs a character that's weak to good crouch use, use it properly.

for recovery, sheik has no disjoint and needles cant hit roy's sweetspot up b if you're perfect, so to edge guard you she either needs to already have a major advantage or she needs invincibility to beat roy's up b. if she has the major advantage, she already has you and if you get lucky and make it back cool but dont expect it. if she needs invincibility, her counterplay to your up b is limited because she cant do drop bair sweetspot and kill you through up b if you recover close to the inside of the stage. roy should recover as close to the inside of the stage as possible, because it prevents needle gimps, she cant land the strong bair, and she has no disjoint to abuse you for it. she basically has to ledge jump nair for a sweetspot as her best option. theres 2 ways to play around this- try to up b her when she does the WD off to graab the edge before she actually grabs it, or, up b along the inside of the stage and hold towards the stage and L/R while roy is moving upwards. if she hits you into the stage, you'll automatically tech it and then her edge guard is blown because she no longer has invincibility.

if sheik grabs you, always DI to her back. bthrow has a higher release point and is a much better setup for pseudo-FF chars like roy diddy MK and DIing to her back means she can only dash attack or boostgrab you. if she grabs you at the edge, DI off stage and then recover along the inside of the stage so she still cant interact with you. also make it a point to DI specifically at the edge, if you DI straight off stage only she can combo into run off fair and kill you, but if you do it right she cant do anything. if sheik does throw > non-grab something combo, DI whatever something is away from her, straight away so she cant combo off of it any further. so for example she does bthrow > dtilt > fair, fair should literally never hit.

in summary:

- pick a small stage that accentuates your DD abuse and ban stages that let sheik use platforms to negate DD abuse. atm roy basically is forced to ban DL64 skyworld and the like, but your best stage is also sheiks best stage (FoD) so its reasonable to leave it unbanned even if she snap picks it.
- neutral is basically DD into dtilt or grab > dtilt, while not losing to needles fair and WD back. if you can DD well then this should be natural.
- DI all her stuff away to mitigate her combo game. recover along the inside of the stage if you can to avoid needles/bair and to keep wall teching as an option to beat invincibility
- when you get her, kill her

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

how do you handle the sheik MU? i feel that it could be a 50:50 MU but i just have a lot of trouble with the combos, tech chases and needles in neutral.
i also have difficulty with samus though i havent played against many. it feels like samus can get out of combos really quick and has alright combos herself not to mention the projectiles which arent that hard to fair through but they add enough to the MU that neutral is annoying and with that added floaty heavy aspect of samus's physics i find myself not getting much when i do get in.

For sheik I bait her in close and dash dance to Dtilt, DED, or grab. I'm always try to be wary of needles and wave dash in for shield grab approaches from time to time.

For Samus I found that you have to maintain a strict balance of aggressive offense and defense. Can't let her get too much momentum and can't get too agressive cause the punish game against Roy is brutal. Ill use jab, Ftilt and DED to clank against the fast missiles. Her CC is pretty strong too. I hate floaty heavy characters the most but I find that nB and Dsmash can good kill options. I still don't kinow what consistently work against her though

 

[Deleted member]

samus is kinda of a solved character coming in from melee, and playing against her is almost everything to do with what you do to samus and almost nothing to do with how you play roy specifically, or any other character. step 1 is to get her into the air, step 2 is to never let her land. it seems facile but thats really it- its just hard to play out with nuance. usually you want to upthrow her first, although if the samus player is bad its also acceptable to dashdance around until she jumps. stay away from dtilt because samus has a godly crouch game and can true cc dtilt until the 70% range. its also acceptable to wd oos on something to grab her. samus dtilt ftilt dsmash fsmash are all open to wd oos into grab. if your timing is imperfect she can still jab you to interrupt your grab, but you can crouch grab her anyway. once you grab her or she jumps, stick to fairs and upairs to tack on damage. your focal point is to not let her back to the stage where she has all of her defensive options, anything else is secondary. when shes taken enough damage, flare blade her out of the air.