I can't help but have the feeling.....

[Vkrm]

I'm not qualified to talk about the competitive aspects of either game (as I have zero idea about any of them), but I will fight to the ends of the Earth to defend my opinion that Brawl is not a bad game in general. Bad competitive game? I wouldn't know. Bad video game? Not by a long shot.

Wait, what am I doing? Am I really posting in another one of those Melee/Brawl discussions? What has happened to me? I'm going to get out while I can. Run!

Brawl is a good game. Objectively

Brawl also happens to be worse than melee. Objectively

Debate me bro.

That's a pretty arrogant statement.

Most people don't go on this site so they don't get the advantage of learning all these new techniques. You can be a great Melee player without knowing how to do these moves.
Not as good as professionals but they go to tournaments and spend every waking moment practicing so what do you expect.

No one mastered l-cancelling or wavedashing without seeing it done online. So that's pretty ignorant to say the only way you gain skill is by practicing techniques you'd normally never know about.

So why take them out? They could have just spread awareness about the techs in the instruction manual. Also smash 64s main website knew about lcanceling, calling it smooth landing. So did nintendo power. If you play smash competitvely you should expect having to do a bit of digging before really knowing the game.

 

[Zone]

The problem with what pikajew is saying, is that I believe melee catered to tourney players, AND casual players.

I felt brawl leaned too far casual. And cut out some of their returning fans.


Atleast in melee you can choose to get Tourney level or choose to stay casual cuz you can't be bothered training.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Guys. We will finally be able to play smash bros online! Like, good online!

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Everyone whines and complains about everything so not everyone is going to be happy with this games new release. Just calm down and be thankful we're getting a new Smash game.

The only reason why people think they "****ed up" with Brawl is because it wasn't like Melee and all the tournament players got their panties in a bunch. The point is to adapt to a new game and master that, not make a Melee sequel.

Me and my friends love Brawl, and we still play it. That game had so much to offer and the only criticism it gets is for taking out Melee techniques that most people don't even know exist anyways. I like how they've added elements to make the gameplay more casual and even. It gives everyone a chance to win and makes matches more exiting.

64, Melee and Brawl all play differently. And the new one is going to be different too. You have to adapt to the new game and find ways to master it. Not complain about what it should have been. Want some nostalgia, go play 64. Want competition go play Melee. Want to have a fun and casual match play Brawl.

This new Smash will be great, no doubt about it. Think of all the features added to Brawl, and where they can develop those for the new game.

No matter what some people are going to complain and say they hate it, but they'll still play it. And many of the Smash fans will love it as much as we loved Brawl

Okay dude, on the real, this feels like a carbon copy response to something that everyone here should have a general understanding of.

On it's own Merits Brawl is a great game, but the game itself was bad not only because of it's inferior engine, but because of the content in the game and the overall polish of the game given the 10 year gap between releases.

From a casual players perspective Brawl is fun, but Melee was honestly much more polished, and plays at the same speed of brawl. I have never played anyone who enjoyed the tripping mechanic. Item spawning rate was less hectic due to frame rate issues and the overall item selection was fairly bland. Items such as the flipper, umbrella, eggs, red shell and blast barrel, which were amazing, were removed for no reason.

Single player ventures such as the individual target test, which were crafted to each character, were replaced by some monotonous and dry game with only 5 levels. That and race to the finish was removed too. Adventure mode turned into a redundant chore in Brawl that simply used up memory and information that could have been used to improve upon the core multiplayer.

Brawl had some great ideas and some bad ideas, but the minuses of the game overshadowed it completely coupled with the complete alienation of the competitive scene made the game only a commercial success. Even now players playing Melee have donated thousands of players to play it in tournaments and have a loving and supportive community. I could literally go on for hours about how Brawl is an inferior game, not only because of techniques, but its design integrity, longevity, community support, and overall fun factor is fairly dull.

Brawl did provide a great deal great music, but its other content, such as the 2 minute game demos and several game trailers are questionable.

I'm positively sure it's going to be the best in the series. Brawl did disappoint only because the project was bigger than the machine which runs it. Less characters? That's absurd.

Brawl was full of great stages and scenarios... You talking about only the more basic ones makes me think you're one of those who wants to play only on Final Destination without items. Then you're the problem, not Brawl.

While I can agree that the people need not base how good the game is completely on the competitive aspect, it is an issue of concern considering how the alienation of competitive and casual players was completely unnecessary for Brawl. How is he a problem? For expressing a concern about how he/she wants to play the game? What is he said that he was afraid Smash 4 wouldn't be good because the item selection and stages wouldn't be as flavorful as the ones in the previous franchises? Would his concern be viable then? You seriously need to get that biased out of your system rather you become a target of criticism in this forum.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Guys. We will finally be able to play smash bros online! Like, good online!

Thats definitely something to look forward to.

Anyway back to the original post at hand (im not even gonna try to touch the melee/brawl debate going on). But for me I loved brawl, it was superb in so many ways, in what it brought to the table and what it accomplished. That said like most people my hype for the game was enormous, and at that point i dont think any game could have satisfied me fully. The one thing i was let down by in brawl was some of the final character reveals, i just wasnt satisfied with toon link and what have you. But thats part of the hype monster, once i got over that initial disappointment my willingness to see all the good parts of the game outweighed any parts i was let down by or expecting. I think like others have said it wont please everyone, and theres no way it could, but if its as solid of an experience as the previous games there will be plenty there to make for a fantastic title. Id say for the most part dial down your hype, and learn from what brawl has taught us, im not gonna say expect another title like brawl, but in a way maybe we should or at least keep an open mind without placing our highest smash bros hopes and dreams on this title.

 

[MountainGoat]

If you're looking for a competitive deep game. I highly doubt that it will be Smash 4. If you want a casual fun new update to the smash series Smash 4 will be that.

 

[Jaedrik]

Yayzeus Creestay, guys, seriously.
So much pessimism. So many semantic fallacies.
Oh dear, please stop.
Should this be the official pessimism thread? Can I make a counterpoint optimism and or neutral thread?

 

[Frostwraith]

This thread was begging for a flame war. Guess what happened?

This said...

 

[Renji64]

Yeah the Online aspect is gonna be great I'm looking forward to playing tons of hours online. I'm just hoping for less of a shallow experience than brawl. Content wise it was amazing just not as fun as melee and i'm a casual player i never played in melee tourneys only a couple of brawl tourneys.

 

[volbound1700]

It wasn't that Brawl was not a great game, it was hyped too much and in the end didn't live up to the hype. Sonic was added (hyped) but his moveset never really truely fit Sonic. That is one thing I am looking forward to.

The Metaknight problem also caused some concern.

The Single player was hyped but found lacking.

Multiplayer was a dissappointment.

No hype characters after all the announcements (many people expect another big third party such as Megaman and that was a letdown).

However, it is still an amazing Smash game and I turned in Melee after I got it because Brawl was a better game to me than Melee (although I regret the decision now, I traded it for Madden on Wii ugh). I may get Melee back one day. For some reason I enjoyed the Adventure mode on Melee more than Brawl, it was shorter and it reflected the characters in the game. I never really grew that wild about SSE except for a few memorable stages that were awesome (I did love DK and Diddy's first stage).

Brawl was basically a victim of hype and I noticed the comments about this game have been very tempered like we expect a game that isn't that great after Brawl didn't live up to the hype.

 

[volbound1700]

Brawl would have been golden if it had been sped up slightly. It had Megaman or some other big third party character that wasn't announced as well as a couple of other wanted characters (Isaac and another LoZ character like Skullkid).

Also had the multiplayer been done legit and SSE had levels based on the series and the length was cut a little.

I think these factors would have made Brawl a more exciting title to everyone on here. Hopefully Smash 4 does some of these factors.

 

[Jonas]

As a Melee fan, I'm not holding my breath.
I'm pretty much done with Nintendo though, so I'm not even gonna bother with the WiiU, even if Smash 4 turns out to be alright.

The thing is, we know from statements made by Sakurai where the series is headed and what to expect from future releases. Smash 4 is probably gonna be different from Brawl, just as Brawl was different from Melee and Melee from 64, but it won't be for you if all you wanted from Brawl was just more content.

 

[TheTTimeLives]

Honestly I think I'm happy enough with Project M to wait however long it is until a competitive smash game like Melee comes out.

That said, I feel like because I'm comfortable with P:M I'm going to be disappointed when Sakurai inevitably lets me down.

AND HE WILL. HE WILL FAIL US AGAIN. I PROMISE YOU... MONEY!

 

[peeup]

Literally 100% of this thread is !00% speculation. Keep an open mind. If Sm4sh sucks, just play PM.

 

[FalKoopa]

If the smash 4 doesn't become competitive, i'm sure someone will hack it to make project M 2.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wow. This thread is dangerous for a Brawl fan like me...

I find Brawl to be more fun than Melee. And I played Melee since it came out. Brawl was not a bad game by any means. You can say that you enjoyed Melee more but to say Brawl was terrible is just silly.

I'm sure SSB4 will be a bit of both. I have a feeling that Namco will have a part in making it more competitive.

 

[PikaJew]

Wow. This thread is dangerous for a Brawl fan like me...

I find Brawl to be more fun than Melee. And I played Melee since it came out. Brawl was not a bad game by any means. You can say that you enjoyed Melee more but to saying Brawl was terrible is just silly.

I'm sure SSB4 will be a bit of both. I have a feeling that Namco will have a part in making it more competitive.

It's at the point where they are only talking negatively of Brawl because it's gameplay isn't a carbon copy of Melee.

Brawl is a really fun game. You just have to play it differently than Melee. Same way you play 64 differently. Adapt to the new game play style. It is in no way less competitive, but if you're going to try to play it like Melee then it won't be a good experience for you.

Wasn't a bad game at all...

 

[Banjodorf]

Look, I understand your passion, but it's not putting Brawl down to say it's not the kind of game I'd prefer to play. Just because a game is different doesn't mean I have to adapt to it. I can play Melee if I want to, or I can play Project M.


From the sound of it, you'd like the game to be like Brawl. I don't want it to be like either. Brawl is too slow, and Melee is not new-player friendly at competitive levels.


Don't blanket the community by assuming everyone who speaks out about their dislike of Brawl over Melee is just a fanboy. It's like asking why I don't play Donkey Kong Country Returns, and just keep playing the original trilogy. I find the original trilogy asthetically, thematically and just better. So I'm going to talk about how I like them, and talk about how I'd prefer other games involve the same themes as the originals because I preferred them.


Funny, that can apply to *everything*. People have preferences.

 

[Vkrm]

It didn't need to be a carbon copy. It did need to be fast, smooth, and have depth. That's where they went wrong. It's fine that you prefer brawl, just don't assert the games are different but equal when its obviously not true. It doesn't surprise me that most casuals like brawl, but playing it competitively is like swimming up stream. Melee was fun no matter what the circumstances.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

 

[El Duderino]

It's at the point where they are only talking negatively of Brawl because it's gameplay isn't a carbon copy of Melee.

Brawl is more like a xerox. It delivers what is essential, adds a little high contrast twist, and brings certain elements into focus. Problem is it's also riddled with artifacts, looses the range of value, and flattens parts of the experience.

I appreciate Brawl for what it is and do acknowledge some value to its differences, but suggesting all it takes is a little adapting to build an equal competitive appreciation is simply ridiculous. I personally gave Brawl more than a fair shake, even remained optimistic about it for a long period of time, but what you are claiming here never happened for me. I'm sure some people feel different and they are perfectly entitled to their opinion, but so am I.

 

[Jonas]

It's at the point where they are only talking negatively of Brawl because it's gameplay isn't a carbon copy of Melee.

Brawl is a really fun game. You just have to play it differently than Melee. Same way you play 64 differently. Adapt to the new game play style. It is in no way less competitive, but if you're going to try to play it like Melee then it won't be a good experience for you.

Wasn't a bad game at all...

That's not the issue. Many Melee fans felt that is was just plain WORSE than Melee, not merely "different."

 

[DarkShadow20]

It didn't need to be a carbon copy. It did need to be fast, smooth, and have depth. That's where they went wrong. It's fine that you prefer brawl, just don't assert the games are different but equal when its obviously not true. It doesn't surprise me that most casuals like brawl, but playing it competitively is like swimming up stream. Melee was fun no matter what the circumstances.

Why did it need to be fast? The first game's speed was just fine. I hated that Melee was so much faster.

I'm not a casual gamer and have played Brawl competitively and gotten my *** kicked. It does take skill to be good at this game.

Not everyone thought Melee was that fun. Having actually played the first game first, Melee was a pretty big disappointment to me.

 

[FalKoopa]

This thread... is moving towards a flame war.
Should I request this thread to be locked?

 

[PikaJew]

But the main reason why you all hate Brawl is because it doesn't play like Melee, and that's what confuses me.

Melee wasn't specifically geared towards more competitive players... Players just got found the competition in it and created a community around it. But the problem is everyone has become far too comfortable with the Melee playing style and expected to play Brawl in the same way. You simply can't!

I've said this plenty of times, you need to adapt to the changes and find new ways to play. So you can't wavedash or l-cancel... Use that to your advantage and wait for a counter strike when your opponent attempts an attack.

64 is a different game, Melee is a different game and Brawl is a different game. You need to play them differently. Simple as that.

Your basing Brawl competitiveness off of the Melee model. And because it plays differently than that you hate it.

It's fine to have Melee as your favourite, but going as far as saying Brawl was awful is just an uneducated, ignorant response. Just say I prefer Melee's fast-place gameplay over Brawl's, don't say Brawl is awful because you can't do short hops and wavedash.

Everyone will have a preference, and each game has a competitive community around it. You just need to play each game differently.

It's unfair to say negative things about Brawl simply because the gameplay is different. It's ludicrous. I understand there is a cult following around Melee and that's fine. I understand Melee is a more competitive game because of it's gameplay, but just play Melee. No need to bash Brawl for it's gameplay. There are plenty of competitive Brawl players out there, the trick is not to play it like Melee. Because it's not meant to be played like Melee.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee could not exist and Brawl would still have mobility mechanics that don't make sense, a skewed risk/reward system, low momentum, high longevity, and a schizophrenic offense/defense game due to the aforementioned attributes.

 

[FalKoopa]

Sheesh... This thread has become a Melee vs Brawl war.

Pikajew, calm down man. If you like brawl more than melee, so be it.

 

[El Duderino]

Sheesh... This thread has become a Melee vs Brawl war.

This is hardly a war, it's just PikaJew failing to evaluate competitive Melee fully just like he is accusing others of doing with Brawl.

 

[Revven]

Pikajew, calm down man. If you like brawl more than melee, so be it.

It's not his preference that bothers people. It's the way he is articulating his arguments and points about why he thinks some people don't like Brawl. Trying to tell us that we don't know what we're talking about like it is 2008 and the game just came out. It's hugely narrow minded and misinformed beyond belief; it's appalling and he continues to ignore what people are actually saying.

Everything being said about Brawl is not of ignorance, it is of what's known about the game and has been found out since it came out in 2008. If he can't come to those terms, then he shouldn't say any more. But he continues to poke it with comments like:

I've said this plenty of times, you need to adapt to the changes and find new ways to play. So you can't wavedash or l-cancel... Use that to your advantage and wait for a counter strike when your opponent attempts an attack.

Telling people how to play the game 5 years after it's out. Do you really think everybody in this thread posting did not play Brawl for any length of time? Or, hasn't seen how the game is played? Really?

It's fine to have Melee as your favourite, but going as far as saying Brawl was awful is just an uneducated, ignorant response. Just say I prefer Melee's fast-place gameplay over Brawl's, don't say Brawl is awful because you can't do short hops and wavedash.

"You don't know how to play Brawl that's why you don't like it" is what I get out of this comment as well. And insinuating wavedashing is the only issue with Brawl, when it's not at all. It's his whole argument and the way he presents it by using terms such as, "ignorant", "bashing", "unfair", etc. it comes off as whiney, offended, and overly defensive.

It's fine if you like Brawl. If you like it and think it's awesome, you don't need to defend it. That's your opinion. But quit trying to act like we don't know anything about the game. It's 5 years old and we're on the biggest Smash website. No one here is ignorant of anything. Especially not after what the Project M team has done and shown the community at large.

He needs to open his mind, research for himself about what's wrong with the game before suggesting we're the ones who don't know anything.

 

[El Duderino]

It's like trying to equate flag football with tackle. Both great unique games, but suggesting they are in every aspect equal teeters on the brink of rational thought.

 

[FalKoopa]

All the discussions aside, aren't we moving away from the actual topic of this thread?

 

[PIKA321]

All the discussions aside, aren't we moving away from the actual topic of this thread?

Umm yeah, very much so. I was simply stating that I wasn't sure how great Smash 4 was going to be. I didn't mean to start a Melee Vs. Brawl war. XD

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's kind of inevitable that any threads discussing the future of the series will fall back on the differences made in the series between installments, and enough people will have vocal opinions about those changes that the discussion will quickly revolve around them.

You've done nothing wrong, and it is very much to be expected when it's the only real thing we have to go on when thinking about where the series will go from here.

 

[El Duderino]

@PIKA321 Again, this is not a war, it is just one bad apple trying to discredit your opinion and everyone else who might agree with you.

There are plenty of reasons for being skeptical of SSB4, even for fans of the last entry. It's just beyond PikaJew's comprehension, that's all.

 

[NightShadow6]

Wrong thread

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

But the main reason why you all hate Brawl is because it doesn't play like Melee, and that's what confuses me.

Melee wasn't specifically geared towards more competitive players... Players just got found the competition in it and created a community around it. But the problem is everyone has become far too comfortable with the Melee playing style and expected to play Brawl in the same way. You simply can't!

I've said this plenty of times, you need to adapt to the changes and find new ways to play. So you can't wavedash or l-cancel... Use that to your advantage and wait for a counter strike when your opponent attempts an attack.

64 is a different game, Melee is a different game and Brawl is a different game. You need to play them differently. Simple as that.

Your basing Brawl competitiveness off of the Melee model. And because it plays differently than that you hate it.

It's fine to have Melee as your favourite, but going as far as saying Brawl was awful is just an uneducated, ignorant response. Just say I prefer Melee's fast-place gameplay over Brawl's, don't say Brawl is awful because you can't do short hops and wavedash.

Everyone will have a preference, and each game has a competitive community around it. You just need to play each game differently.

It's unfair to say negative things about Brawl simply because the gameplay is different. It's ludicrous. I understand there is a cult following around Melee and that's fine. I understand Melee is a more competitive game because of it's gameplay, but just play Melee. No need to bash Brawl for it's gameplay. There are plenty of competitive Brawl players out there, the trick is not to play it like Melee. Because it's not meant to be played like Melee.

I was in the middle of writing a long paragraph down but I found this post in another thread you should just read instead.

 

[peeup]

Look, as someone who's experience in competitive smash is strictly Brawl, I can say without a doubt that Melee is a better competitive game than Brawl. You really can't deny that. Melee has a much higher skill ceiling. They are both phenomenal casual/party games, but Melee has more depth in its gameplay. It's also, generally speaking, a whole lot more fun to watch, which I think is a big part of competition (nobody would watch the superbowl if it wasn't fun to watch (Ray Lewis should die in a fire)).

 

[FalKoopa]

That post is awesome. Seriously.

 

[Watashi]

I can see where both sides come from. I like both. Melee for its gameplay, and Brawl for its characters.

But yes, this game will not meet everyone's expectations.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I can see where both sides come from. I like both. Melee for its gameplay, and Brawl for its characters.

But yes, this game will not meet everyone's expectations.

Brawl for the characters?

Project M.