I can't help but have the feeling.....

[El Duderino]

I never understood overwhelming Smash 4 optimism when it comes from certain hyper defensive Brawl posters. Having some degree of skepticism would actually make a lot more sense.

 

[peeup]

Brawl for the characters?

Project M.

I don't have a 2 GB SD card, I don't wanna spend money I don't have to, and I don't care enough to figure out how to "softmod" my Wii.

 

[El Duderino]

I don't have a 2 GB SD card, I don't wanna spend money I don't have to, and I don't care enough to figure out how to "softmod" my Wii.

A 2 gig SD card + reader will set you back the cost of one White Russian at a cocktail bar. Also no softmod is required. I really hope for your sake this is pocket change and you can follow the simple install instructions. If indeed either are a struggle for you, let me apologize in advance for what I'm about to say. These are pretty poor excuses.

 

[Watashi]

A 2 gig SD card + reader will set you back the cost of one White Russian at a cocktail bar. Also no softmod is required. I really hope for your sake this is pocket change and you can follow the simple install instructions. If indeed either are a struggle for you, let me apologize in advance for what I'm about to say. These are pretty poor excuses.

I'll try it out when I have the chance.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There's nothing wrong with Brawl, seriously, and the years after years of this have gotten so stale. It's certainly not "less competitive", and let's just dismiss this right now.

The word competitive is a bit tricky to get a solid definition for ("of, pertaining to, involving, or decided by competition" sucks as a definition, sorry dictionary.com). I say insofar as the word pertains to game design, it means that the game enables skill differentiation such that competitions can be held and have meaningful results. A game is more or less competitive based on high level play having skill differentiation (even very good players can be better or worse than each other; the skill ceiling is very high) and consistent results (the differences in skill are more significant than randomness and general chaos influencing results). This is 100% objective, and you can decide the difference between Melee and Brawl solely on observing tournament results with none of the bogus "well tripping sucks because..." arguments. If you actually do that, you see that the two games are nearly identical in these respects and both are highly competitive. Arguments about XYZ advanced tech not being in Brawl are not arguments about competitiveness. They're arguments that the particular skills being tested are different. Don't try to say Melee is demanding "more skill" either, an argument that makes literally zero sense. Skill is by definition simply what internal aspects as a player make you consistently win over other players. Since Brawl has consistent winners and losers to the same extent Melee does, it by definition requires exactly the same amount of skill. What constitutes that skill may be different, but it's not any lower degree so the difference in composition is merely a matter of preference.

I prefer Brawl over Melee strongly, but I can recognize that in the end every reason I can assert comes down to "Brawl is more fun for me". Throughout the design, I prefer what's emphasized in Brawl, and I'm certainly a whole lot better at Brawl than Melee that aside. Heck, I'll just be honest; when I'm playing Melee, I pick Jigglypuff and try to play like it's Brawl the best I can. The whole Melee vs Brawl argument really peeves me though because most people who assert Melee is better seem to miss that they too are at best asserting a subjective preference. If you subjectively prefer Melee, great. We're the same except with divergent personal preferences. If you honestly think Melee is even one iota objectively better than Brawl, you're just deluded (or swept up in the deluded assertions of others perhaps). This argument should have been settled at this conclusion a week after Brawl came out. The fact that it's carrying on like this five years after Brawl came out is just asinine, especially in light of five years of Brawl tournaments that should have eventually made everyone give pause and say "you know, it sure would seem like this Brawl game is actually working out".

The way this pertains to smash 4 is obvious. Unless smash 4 truly is objectively bad, an unlikely result given the incredibly high level of quality both previous games displayed, it's going to be the tournament and community standard when it comes out. Like it or not, that's just reality. Heck, even if it does objectively suck, the likely result of that will just be destroying the community. This means that, like it or not, we're fully invested in smash 4. If we want to support competitive smash, we're going to have to support smash 4. Attacking the game and arguing in favor of any previous smash game is just asinine, and it does nothing but harm to the community. The constant "Brawl sucks" patrol did nothing to really help Melee; all they did was serve as a constant drag on the Brawl community. Over the course of five years, the damage they have done to the community is immeasurable. We cannot suffer this again. I plan to support smash 4 nearly unconditionally, and if you care about competitive smash, so should you. If the game really sucks, an incredibly unlikely possibility, we'll cross that bridge when it arrives. Until such a time, we should all assume it's going to be awesome just like the previous two games were awesome, accept that it's going to be the standard, and be ready to seriously support the game so we can grow competitive smash as a whole. When it does come out and the inevitable negative nancy patrol comes along talking about how the game sucks, we should tell them to take a hike and save ourselves another five years of pointless, community damaging drama.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Namco will balance while Sakurai will decide on content.. pretty simple. Nothing to worry about.

 

[peeup]

A 2 gig SD card + reader will set you back the cost of one White Russian at a cocktail bar. Also no softmod is required. I really hope for your sake this is pocket change and you can follow the simple install instructions. If indeed either are a struggle for you, let me apologize in advance for what I'm about to say. These are pretty poor excuses.

That's more than I'm willing to spend haha. And I know I don't need to mod my Wii if I have the 2GB SD card, but I think the website says you need some kind of mod if you wanna run it on a non-2GB card.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

That's more than I'm willing to spend haha. And I know I don't need to mod my Wii if I have the 2GB SD card, but I think the website says you need some kind of mod if you wanna run it on a non-2GB card.

No, no you don't. GeckoOS can't read from an SD card of more than 2 gigs. If you want to use one bigger than that, you have to use Riivolution, which IIRC can still be used hackless.

 

[grizby2]

i don't see why people seem to believe that brawl is only played by 9 year-olds or younger...silly.
brawl has proven to be competitive, but obviously not as much as melee. im fairly sure we arent that blind.

i honestly don't think sm4sh will be similar to melee or brawl or 64. as above posters said, it'll be its own game, heck maybe it'll be more competitive than melee (even without l-canceling/wave dashing or any other of the advanced mechanics!).

thanks to playstation all-stars, namco-bandai has something to build off of as far as what the strengths and weaknesses of that game were. and seeing how its a smash clone (sorta), im certain nintendo, being the REAL creators of the smash franchise, will 1-up them... haha.. 1-up.

OT: the biggest concern for me is the connectivity of the wiiU and 3ds. if it turns out that sm4sh is just a port from the 3ds, i will be largley dissapointed. id rather have it be a WiiU-only game, so they can utilize the full extent of their new home console.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I like to think they are making two games because they have too many contents and ideas for one game only.

 

[peeup]

No, no you don't. GeckoOS can't read from an SD card of more than 2 gigs. If you want to use one bigger than that, you have to use Riivolution, which IIRC can still be used hackless.

Ohhhhkay thats my bad, misunderstood. But still I don't wanna buy an SD card haha.

 

[PikaJew]

So glad there are some Brawl fans in this thread now.
I felt like a wounded fish in piranha infested waters.

Preference. Adapt to changes. Those are the two main points i've been trying to say before Melee fans caught feelings.

Brawl isn't Melee, so don't play it like Melee. Simple as that.

 

[Big-Cat]

Melee, Brawl, whatever.

Point is, if I don't find it fun, that's all there is to it.

 

[El Duderino]

Since Brawl has consistent winners and losers to the same extent Melee does, it by definition requires exactly the same amount of skill. What constitutes that skill may be different, but it's not any lower degree so the difference in composition is merely a matter of preference.

Constant winners and loosers only suggests a game has a competitive element, it does not describe the depth of what is required to win in the first place. This is where your case falls completely apart.

From the ledge game to spacing and positioning, Melee has un-paralleled tactical variety in the Smash series. There simply is more to account for in any given situation and more possibilities at your disposal. It all adds up to the game having some incredibly dense strategic value that lends itself to being a killer competitive game.

Brawl does have its own complexities, but something unique about its competitive play has to be truly extraordinary to put it on equal ground. Being just different is simply not enough.

 

[peeup]

Brawl fans, quit saying that "Brawl is just differently competitive," or "you just need to adapt to a new game." Yes, both of those are true. But it is also very true that no matter what you say, Melee is the game with more technical and strategic depth.

This coming from a Brawl player. I know my game can't touch Melee in terms of good competition.

 

[Vkrm]

Lol "adapt". "Stop comparing it to melee". The only reason you want us to stop comparing the two is because of how much better melee is. All the opposing arguments lack any substance, it's basically a bunch of scrubs trying to assure us their shallow plankfest is more fun then it looks.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm certainly a whole lot better at Brawl than Melee that aside. Heck, I'll just be honest; when I'm playing Melee, I pick Jigglypuff and try to play like it's Brawl the best I can.

Funnily enough, Jigglypuff is one of the few characters I use in Brawl for the exact same vice versa reasons lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lol "adapt". "Stop comparing it to melee". The only reason you want us to stop comparing the two is because of how much better melee is. All the opposing arguments lack any substance, it's basically a bunch of scrubs trying to assure us their shallow plankfest is more fun then it looks.

You are free to like either game.

But there is absolutely no reason to be elitist. Listen to yourself

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Namco will balance while Sakurai will decide on content.. pretty simple. Nothing to worry about.

Sakurai decides the game direction. People also need to stop caring about balance so much, it varies very strongly between skill level and metagame (just look at the first Melee tier list) and if active patching goes on for balance (which it won't) all we're going to get is kneejerk nerfs from crying scrubs.

So glad there are some Brawl fans in this thread now.
I felt like a wounded fish in piranha infested waters.

Preference. Adapt to changes. Those are the two main points i've been trying to say before Melee fans caught feelings.

Brawl isn't Melee, so don't play it like Melee. Simple as that.

LOL "adapt", you know that Melee players are the ones who did all the serious work on Brawl research right? During the half-yearish of Brawl's release, Melee players were the ones who discovered all the distinguishing workings of the Brawl engine, and as Brawl mods were released to alter and/or fix gameplay, even more stuff was found with the research once again primarily lead by Melee players.

Melee players who hate Brawl don't hate it because they don't know how it works, we know exactly how it works and we hate it because what works is boring awful gameplay. Of course people are going to compare it to Melee, Brawl's a sequel, it's supposed to be better, and if it doesn't hold up in quality then people are going to put it down and play Melee instead. Which they do.

 

[El Duderino]

Lol "adapt". "Stop comparing it to melee". The only reason you want us to stop comparing the two is because of how much better melee is. All the opposing arguments lack any substance, it's basically a bunch of scrubs trying to assure us their shallow plankfest is more fun then it looks.

Srubs and planking? That's an oxymoron.

Also cut the BS, posters like PikaJew see people being judgmental of Brawl's competitive side and get their feathers ruffled up because they enjoy the game. He is just confused, claiming it deserves equal the recognition for all the wrong reasons, and probably has no clue about some of the clear reasons for being critical.

 

[PIKA321]

So glad there are some Brawl fans in this thread now.
I felt like a wounded fish in piranha infested waters.

Umm dude, I made this thread, I've been here all this time and I love Brawl.

 

[FalKoopa]

So glad there are some Brawl fans in this thread now.
I felt like a wounded fish in piranha infested waters.

Preference. Adapt to changes. Those are the two main points i've been trying to say before Melee fans caught feelings.

Brawl isn't Melee, so don't play it like Melee. Simple as that.

I still cant understand why is he taking it to heart....

 

[Frostwraith]

This thread has gone to a level so low, it's making me throw up. The mods should just waltz in here and lock this thread.

All this pointless arguing over a game is what mostly ruins gaming forums for me. It's bad and gives a bad name to gamers.

All I hear is:

"OMG MELEE IS BETTER CUZ IT'S COMPETITIVE!!! IT HAZ ADVANCED TECHNIQUES HERP DERP HERP DERP"

On the other side of the spectrum...

"OMG MELEE SUX! BRAWL IS FUN BLAH BLAH BLAH HERP DERP"

I've played both, I love both games equally, even if they play differently. Why? Because I enjoy my time while playing, whether alone or with friends.

Whenever simple entertainment becomes "OMG SERIOUS BUSINESS" and something worthy of creating flame wars like this, it only shows the rising stupidity of people.

That's why I am presenting you, fellow Smashers, the MST3K Mantra (courtesy of TVTropes Wiki).

Now, I would really like if the mods locked this up.

 

[---]

The game is going to be completely different from past games anyway so this Melee vs Brawl stuff really isn't needed.

Anyway back to the main topic, just stay optimistic, Sakurai's an amazing developer (he did make Melee/Brawl) and he now has some of the best developers from Namco at his side. Whether you hate Melee/Brawl, it can't be denied that the game overall will be fun in general for most everyone (there will always be haters) and of high quality. 64 had too short of a budget, Melee was rushed, Brawl chewed WAY more than it could handle, Smash 4 should be the final result of finally ironing out all of the flaws. That said no game is ever truly perfect, so you gotta keep your expectations in check.

Honestly the only way he could really **** up the game is if a new overbearing gimmick was introduced that makes tripping look like normal Green Shells instead of Blue, either that or he does the inevitable roster reboot.

 

[PIKA321]

Now, I would really like if the mods locked this up.

Yeah they prob should theres no point in having it open anymore anyways, we not even talking about the original topic, all it's turned out to be is a stupid flame war.

 

[El Duderino]

@ Frostwraith I get the point you are trying to make, I just don't think it really represents the general discussion, tone, and arguments in this thread. At most, I'll give you maybe a handful of offhanded remarks.

We've honestly been debating more about what gives a Smash game competitive value because it clearly matters to people's expectations for Smash 4. This conclusion you came to is largely an overreaction. That said, if someone wants to lock this thread go ahead, I could definitely see it going in a bad direction now.

 

[TheTTimeLives]

Doesn't everything?

It's literally so pointless posting here. Just going back to P:M now.

 

[El Duderino]

Doesn't everything?

Well yeah, otherwise people wouldn't enjoy talking about a game with so little information.

It's really only as pointless as speculating about any video game yet to be released. That includes the final version of Project M .

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't think people who responded to my previous post talking about how Melee has more of things like "spacing", "depth", and "strategy" were really using any of those words very precisely. Either that or they know almost nothing about competitive Brawl. I originally had four paragraphs here explaining in great detail how Brawl really works and why the argument is flawed both factually and ontologically, but that's completely missing the real point of this topic. I'll just say in lieu of the long argument that while I can't claim to have been a top player, in my time I had years of tournament experience at Brawl, was a leader in working out the inner depths of its mechanics (I don't have this blue name for nothing), and I was even a member of the BBR. I drifted out of the community a few years back for a few reasons, conflicts with work more than anything, but seriously I have credibility here when I'm asserting that there's a whole lot more to Brawl than most of the people who bash it will ever admit. I know arguments from credibility aren't real arguments, but I'm going to leave this point at that so I can move on to the real topic.

Has anyone here ever wondered why the competitive smash community didn't grow nearly as much as the communities for other fighting games in the past several years? In general, given the sales level of smash, why doesn't its competitive community dwarf that of other fighters? There are a few reasons, but a big one is the ridiculous civil war we had in which a lot of us seem to have decided that our community's main game isn't good. Yeah, that will sure draw the crowds. New players are drawn to communities that hate themselves and the games they play. Frostwraith's post, while I don't think it quite captured the nuances of the argument, seems to prove the general problem with this whole endeavor. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and while Frostwraith in particular fell into the trap of false parity, I think most of us can see that the anti-Brawl side has done almost all of the attacking in the past five years.

Brawl is pretty much a settled game at this point anyway; nothing we can do will make it do any better than it did, and if some of you people want to insist upon ridiculous things about it at this stage, whatever. A big part of me wants to carry on and on about how horribly wrong you are about this, but there's no point. The real point is this; smash 4 is the future. We need to support it as one united community, and the only reason I'm even in this topic is to assert strongly that what was done to Brawl was wrong on every possible level and that we cannot, absolutely must not repeat it with smash 4 no matter what. If somehow you have a need to continue to be down on Brawl until the end of time, I can accept that even as I'm quite convinced you're completely wrong. As long as we agree to discard the crazy notion this topic seemed to suggest in the start, that crazy notion that we haven't learned from our collective mistakes and are going to repeat the worst part of our history with smash 4, I'm happy.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Whoa whoa whoa

Who says Brawl is the main Smash game? Throwing out that kind of presumptuous wording is being just as ignorant as you claim other people are being of Brawl.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Whoa whoa whoa

Who says Brawl is the main Smash game? Throwing out that kind of presumptuous wording is being just as ignorant as you claim other people are being of Brawl.

Let's see why I might say Brawl is the main game...

As of the time of this post, there are 3876622 posts in the Brawl sections of the forums. Despite having a head start, the Melee sections have a mere 971280 posts. That's only 25% as many posts. Note that I didn't include the workshops; if I did, Brawl's lead would be even bigger.

A quick check at the tournament results forum shows far more completed Brawl tournaments than Melee tournaments. Most tournaments are Brawl only, and only four are Melee only. In most of the tournaments with both, Brawl was bigger (the last two on the page had Melee bigger, and the games were dead equal in one). The tournament listings section of the forum is similarly completely dominated by Brawl tournaments. The disparity was far bigger back when I was active true, but Brawl still very clearly has Melee beaten in terms of tournament attendance.

Checking the regional forums, there seems to be vague parity other than the fact that Brawl rules Midwest (my home region, Midwest is best!) and Pacific West seems to be big into Melee though some of the regional forums don't make a habit of using the Brawl or Melee thread tags (Europe doesn't use them at all!) so it's more trouble than its worth to sort out what those regions prefer. Make of this data point what you may, but it certainly can't be ruled as a win for Melee.

So, as the clearly biggest game in this community, how is Brawl not the main game? My wording simply reflected reality, nothing more. This, of course, has nothing particular to do with game quality. Brawl is the newest game in the series; it's only natural that it's the main game. It's the same reason I'm convinced that, basically no matter what, smash 4 will be the main game when it comes out. Newness isn't really something you can fight, and we should just accept it and gear up to support smash 4.

 

[Vkrm]

So brawls more active? Last I checked we were even in tourney attendants. And I wonder how many of the brawl posts were melee trolls. Not to say that having a more active forum is grounds for declaring it THE smash game. That would be stupid. Smash 4 is bound to be a commercial success regardless. I'm going to wait and see if it deserves my support.

 

[El Duderino]

Has anyone here ever wondered why the competitive smash community didn't grow nearly as much as the communities for other fighting games in the past several years? In general, given the sales level of smash, why doesn't its competitive community dwarf that of other fighters? There are a few reasons, but a big one is the ridiculous civil war we had in which a lot of us seem to have decided that our community's main game isn't good. Yeah, that will sure draw the crowds.

Woah, back it up for one minute, we need to have a little straight talk about the current state of competitive Smash.

Melee, with the help of members from all over the Smash community, just raised 92k and is going to EVO. That is ****ing HUGE. We came on top of critical darlings like SkullGirls, new games like Dead or Alive 5, and last year entrants like Soul Calibur V. For an 11 year old game, it is borderline unbelievable. What that should tell you is the competitive Smash community is more than healthy, it is thriving. Realistically, any other fighter by this point would be dead. Brawl and Melee have bucked the trend.

Having this 2 games split is not dragging us down, it is providing more opportunities to reach new heights. It's far better having two games with incredibly passionate communities than one 'main' game with a lower median of enthusiasm.

As for Smash 4, it will have an impact, but it is certainly not the only future for competitive Smash. It deserves a fair shot, but that is all SSB4 is entitled to. No one should feel obligated to stick with it or hold back their opinions (or concerns) out of some false pretense that the game demands their approval. If players make the jump, it should be on the simple premise that they are having fun with Smash 4. If that is short lived, going back to Melee, Brawl, or any of the Mods is perfectly acceptable.

 

[volbound1700]

pfffff... everyone knows that Brawl is better than Melee because it has Sonic the Hedgehog in it... duh!

 

[Vkrm]

pfffff... everyone knows that Brawl is better than Melee because it has Sonic the Hedgehog in it... duh!

But brawl lacks mewtwo swag.

 

[peeup]

Brawl has more characters and stages.

Melee has more competitive depth.

/thread

 

[Vkrm]

So where does PM fit in? When it's done PM will offer everything that brawl does and have the depth.

 

[peeup]

So where does PM fit in? When it's done PM will offer everything that brawl does and have the depth.

I don't play PM but from what I can tell it's the best of both worlds. And honestly most of competitive smash should funnel into PM until SSB4 comes out.

 

[FalKoopa]

I don't play PM but from what I can tell it's the best of both worlds. And honestly most of competitive smash should funnel into PM until SSB4 comes out.

I'd love to see PM 2 for SSB4.

 

[Curious Villager]

Then we will complain that Smash 4 isn't like Project M and then we demand the Wii U to get hacked quicker (If it hasn't been hacked yet by then) just so we can hack smash 4 and turn that into another Project M...

I wonder if some bored troll's would do a Project B just for the lulz.

No love for a potential project 64 though...

Spoiler

I was talking in sarcasm during this if that is hard to detect...